Author Topic: 1,500-year-old Bible / Turkish 'Bible' has Barnabas forecasting Muhammad's coming  (Read 3327 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dzheremi

  • No longer posting here.
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,383
Re: Turkish 'Bible' has Barnabas forecasting Muhammad's coming
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2012, 01:07:56 AM »
Read what the Assyrians (the people who can actually read this book in the original) are saying about this supposed discovery here.

Offline dcommini

  • Tha mi sgulan na Trianaid
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,208
  • Beannachd Dia dhuit
    • Life of an Orthodox Soldier
Re: Turkish 'Bible' has Barnabas forecasting Muhammad's coming
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2012, 06:38:54 AM »
Read what the Assyrians (the people who can actually read this book in the original) are saying about this supposed discovery here.

So if it was written in the 1500's as claimed by the front cover in your article wouldn't that make this "Bible" only 500 years old?

Quote
Translation: In the name of our Lord, this book is written on the hands of the monks of the high monastery in Nineveh, in the 1,500th year of our Lord.

And of course the problem being that who ever wrote that used Modern Assyrian instead of Classical

Quote
Most significantly, this writing is in Modern Assyrian, which was standardized in the 1840s. The first bible in Modern Assyrian was produced in 1848. If this book were written in 1500 A.D. it should have been written in Classical Assyrian.

So now we have this being no older than 200 years old.

If, however, this "Bible" was written 1500 years ago (roughly being AD 500) that would still be plenty of time for some one to make up false claims about anything.

Of course any evidence of forgery will be overlooked by those who wish to bring about the downfall of Christianity...
N/OblSB

Gun cuireadh do chupa thairis le slàinte agus sona - May your cup overflow with health and happiness
Check out my blog...

Offline Punch

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 5,801
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2012, 09:34:16 AM »
I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

I have come to doubt some of this.  My cop buddies tell me that Mexicans are like cue balls; the harder you hit them, the more English you get.  I have actually been witness to this (although no physical violence was used).  It was amazing how the gentleman went from "no comprende" to reasonably good English when he was told that he was going to take a ride to the police station unless he answered a couple of questions.  I have also been told that they become very educated at garage sales when they really want something and you tell them to speak English or GTFO.  They know far more English than they let on.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2012, 09:44:59 AM »
I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

I have come to doubt some of this.  My cop buddies tell me that Mexicans are like cue balls; the harder you hit them, the more English you get.  I have actually been witness to this (although no physical violence was used).  It was amazing how the gentleman went from "no comprende" to reasonably good English when he was told that he was going to take a ride to the police station unless he answered a couple of questions.  I have also been told that they become very educated at garage sales when they really want something and you tell them to speak English or GTFO.  They know far more English than they let on.

This is in no way my experience.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Νεκτάριος

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,437
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2012, 09:59:49 AM »
I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

I have come to doubt some of this.  My cop buddies tell me that Mexicans are like cue balls; the harder you hit them, the more English you get.  I have actually been witness to this (although no physical violence was used).  It was amazing how the gentleman went from "no comprende" to reasonably good English when he was told that he was going to take a ride to the police station unless he answered a couple of questions.  I have also been told that they become very educated at garage sales when they really want something and you tell them to speak English or GTFO.  They know far more English than they let on.

Yup.  I do the same in reverse.  In any interaction I have with any governmental employee I absolutely refuse to speak a word of Russian or Ukrainian.  It is pretty simple - then they can't ask me for bribes.  If they try, I just play dumb and waste their time.  Once they get tired of it they just go about doing their job and leave me alone.  It is great living in a culture infused with the Orthodox ethos.  

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,477
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,477
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2012, 03:25:17 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline ialmisry

  • There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 38,477
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2012, 03:32:49 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany
LOL.  A tad dogmatic there.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Theophilos78

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,043
Here we find an interesting solution to the mystery of the medieval Gospel of Barnabas:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110607130920/http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arts/barnabas/marino.html

This professor thinks that the so-called Islamic Gospel of Barnabas owes its existence to the rivalry and struggle of some Catholic clergymen on their way to Papacy.  :o
Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2012, 08:38:15 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2012, 06:56:41 AM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,811
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline Mivac

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 247
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2012, 10:07:47 AM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Most people would say the legal language of bill's, torts, laws, etc., are in Greek.   ;)

Offline primuspilus

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,811
  • Inserting personal quote here.
    • Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2012, 11:44:22 AM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Most people would say the legal language of bill's, torts, laws, etc., are in Greek.   ;)
Not in America they're not. At least not to my knowledge.

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,366
Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

And what might those interests have been?  (Hint: Nye Committee)
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2012, 04:19:30 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2012, 04:23:09 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  :o

Offline vamrat

  • Vamratoraptor
  • Merarches
  • ***********
  • Posts: 8,366
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2012, 04:55:36 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

I would have assumed Dutch, but oh well!  Plattdeutsch, perhaps?   ;)

Depending on where you live, and how well you know the history of the area, the existence of ethnic communities in history can almost be taken for granted.  It's not just the Germans.  Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, Czechs...all had ethnic communities where their languages, customs, and religions were maintained.  Many of these groups married amongst themselves and really didn't start assimilating into "mainstream America" until after WWII.  There is still a "Little Italy" part of Omaha and many old Italian families.  Almost all of these families have intermarried into the rest of the general population, but there certainly was a time where it was primarily an Italian neighborhood.  There are other examples, just in my own town, but the Italian one is the one I am the most familiar with.
Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2012, 05:05:27 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

And yet my select cases are more than your cases. Don't you find it strange that someone whose family was here for many generations would marry someone from Germany rather than an American of another ethnicity?  Shouldn't that alone say something?  I know when Alexis De Tocqueville visited the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century, he found enclaves of people speaking different languages, such as French, German, Dutch, etc.   Don't the Pennsylvania Dutch still speak German?

Anyway I find it upsetting that children would be deprived of learning another language for whatever reason.

This should be of interest to you:

"... In Cincinnati, the public library was asked to withdraw all German books from its shelves. German-named streets were renamed. The town, Berlin, Michigan, was changed to Marne, Michigan (honoring those who fought in the Battle of Marne). In Iowa, in the 1918 Babel Proclamation, the governor prohibited all foreign languages in schools and public places. Nebraska banned instruction in any language except English, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the ban illegal in 1923 (Meyer v. Nebraska).The response of German Americans to these tactics was often to "Americanize" names (e.g. Schmidt to Smith, Müller to Miller) and limit the use of the German language in public places, especially churches..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#World_War_I_anti-German_sentiment

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  :o

And we, in the twentieth century, had plans in case we ever wanted to invade Canada, your point?
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2012, 06:22:37 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

And yet my select cases are more than your cases. Don't you find it strange that someone whose family was here for many generations would marry someone from Germany rather than an American of another ethnicity?  Shouldn't that alone say something?  I know when Alexis De Tocqueville visited the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century, he found enclaves of people speaking different languages, such as French, German, Dutch, etc.   Don't the Pennsylvania Dutch still speak German?

Anyway I find it upsetting that children would be deprived of learning another language for whatever reason.

This should be of interest to you:

"... In Cincinnati, the public library was asked to withdraw all German books from its shelves. German-named streets were renamed. The town, Berlin, Michigan, was changed to Marne, Michigan (honoring those who fought in the Battle of Marne). In Iowa, in the 1918 Babel Proclamation, the governor prohibited all foreign languages in schools and public places. Nebraska banned instruction in any language except English, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the ban illegal in 1923 (Meyer v. Nebraska).The response of German Americans to these tactics was often to "Americanize" names (e.g. Schmidt to Smith, Müller to Miller) and limit the use of the German language in public places, especially churches..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#World_War_I_anti-German_sentiment

Note the word "often" in the quote your provide, versus the "all" in your own statement.  You have an extreme tendency to make incredibly broad generalizations and other comments that are lacking, a great deal, in intellectual merit.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2012, 06:24:33 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

I would have assumed Dutch, but oh well!  Plattdeutsch, perhaps?   ;)

Depending on where you live, and how well you know the history of the area, the existence of ethnic communities in history can almost be taken for granted.  It's not just the Germans.  Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, Czechs...all had ethnic communities where their languages, customs, and religions were maintained.  Many of these groups married amongst themselves and really didn't start assimilating into "mainstream America" until after WWII.  There is still a "Little Italy" part of Omaha and many old Italian families.  Almost all of these families have intermarried into the rest of the general population, but there certainly was a time where it was primarily an Italian neighborhood.  There are other examples, just in my own town, but the Italian one is the one I am the most familiar with.

Actually I am under the impression that my family hails from Bavaria, though I might not be correct on that point.  If I ever get around to e-mailing my dad about the family history (something I've been meaning to do for nearly a year), I'll let you know.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011

Offline jmbejdl

  • Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,480
  • Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2012, 03:44:56 AM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

I would have assumed Dutch, but oh well!  Plattdeutsch, perhaps?   ;)

Depending on where you live, and how well you know the history of the area, the existence of ethnic communities in history can almost be taken for granted.  It's not just the Germans.  Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, Czechs...all had ethnic communities where their languages, customs, and religions were maintained.  Many of these groups married amongst themselves and really didn't start assimilating into "mainstream America" until after WWII.  There is still a "Little Italy" part of Omaha and many old Italian families.  Almost all of these families have intermarried into the rest of the general population, but there certainly was a time where it was primarily an Italian neighborhood.  There are other examples, just in my own town, but the Italian one is the one I am the most familiar with.

Actually I am under the impression that my family hails from Bavaria, though I might not be correct on that point.  If I ever get around to e-mailing my dad about the family history (something I've been meaning to do for nearly a year), I'll let you know.

Could easily be Bavarian. Bavarian dialect differs quite a lot from standard Hochdeutsch but it is still a high German dialect not a low German one. The name doesn't sound terribly Platt to me. Admittedly, the Plattduutsch I'm familiar with is the dialect around Bremen and there is no standard form (and different Orthographies as well) so I could easily be incorrect, but I'd say Bavarian was very plausible.
We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  :o

And we, in the twentieth century, had plans in case we ever wanted to invade Canada, your point?

Hey I never knew that.  Funny that it was in the 19th century and not earlier.  Was there a specific reason for it?  Boy that aroused my curiousity, thanks.  I only wish more information was forthcoming.  Ahh! Will my  curiousity never cease.    ;)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 04:38:10 PM by Zenovia »

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
Re: 1,500-year-old Bible
« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2012, 04:49:48 PM »
Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  :P

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   ???

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   ???   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

And yet my select cases are more than your cases. Don't you find it strange that someone whose family was here for many generations would marry someone from Germany rather than an American of another ethnicity?  Shouldn't that alone say something?  I know when Alexis De Tocqueville visited the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century, he found enclaves of people speaking different languages, such as French, German, Dutch, etc.   Don't the Pennsylvania Dutch still speak German?

Anyway I find it upsetting that children would be deprived of learning another language for whatever reason.

This should be of interest to you:

"... In Cincinnati, the public library was asked to withdraw all German books from its shelves. German-named streets were renamed. The town, Berlin, Michigan, was changed to Marne, Michigan (honoring those who fought in the Battle of Marne). In Iowa, in the 1918 Babel Proclamation, the governor prohibited all foreign languages in schools and public places. Nebraska banned instruction in any language except English, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the ban illegal in 1923 (Meyer v. Nebraska).The response of German Americans to these tactics was often to "Americanize" names (e.g. Schmidt to Smith, Müller to Miller) and limit the use of the German language in public places, especially churches..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#World_War_I_anti-German_sentiment

Note the word "often" in the quote your provide, versus the "all" in your own statement.  You have an extreme tendency to make incredibly broad generalizations and other comments that are lacking, a great deal, in intellectual merit.

I never said 'all', I said the Germans changed their names.  The 'all' was added by you for whatever reason.   ::)

Offline WeldeMikael

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 506
From a 1.500 yo Bible to Bavaria  ;D

Offline Zenovia

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 777
From a 1.500 yo Bible to Bavaria  ;D

Strange things a-happening?   :o :'( >:( :P

Offline JamesRottnek

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 5,123
  • I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine
Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  :o

And we, in the twentieth century, had plans in case we ever wanted to invade Canada, your point?

Hey I never knew that.  Funny that it was in the 19th century and not earlier.  Was there a specific reason for it?  Boy that aroused my curiousity, thanks.  I only wish more information was forthcoming.  Ahh! Will my  curiousity never cease.    ;)

We've actually invaded a number of countries; I suppose the thing that rally cemented some sort of alliance and stability between Western countries would probably have been the start of the Cold War, though that's just a guess.
I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011