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Author Topic: 1,500-year-old Bible / Turkish 'Bible' has Barnabas forecasting Muhammad's coming  (Read 2997 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 23, 2012, 05:21:03 PM »

Wow, Did not know this even existed. Wonder if the Turks will let them see it. Dont think so though.


The Vatican has allegedly issued an official request to examine a 1,500-year-old Bible that has been held in Turkey for the past 12 years


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/23/vatican-requests-1500-year-old-bible-from-turkey_n_1296672.html?ncid=webmail5

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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 05:24:24 PM »

"The Bible reportedly contains early teachings of Jesus Christ"

 Grin
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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 05:38:19 PM »

It is funny indeed that an Islamic newspaper suggests that this Bible could be an old copy of the medieval Gospel of Barnabas written in Aramaic!  The medieval Gospel of Barnabas was first devised in Spanish and Italian though. Further, its author never claimed that Jesus got His "true Gospel" written in Aramaic or Hebrew rather than Greek.

Muslim scholars, having been spurred by people like Dan Brown or Bart Ehrman, have recently proposed that the New Testament cannot be genuine because it was written in none of Jesus' languages (Hebrew and Aramaic). This language issue is often brought up by Muslims who object to the authenticity of the canonical Gospels. Ironically, Muhammad's demon was definitely unaware of this argument because he said that Jesus was given a revelation named Injil, which is the Arabic transliteration of the Greek word Euangelion!!! Cheesy

Christians, fasten your seatbelts and be ready for a new conspiracy theory targetting the Bible and Christian tenets.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 05:59:39 PM »

Gotta love pseudo-journalistic speculation.  The Gospel of Barnabas is a ridiculous document probably from the Moores in which the author did not even know that Christ and Messiah meant the same thing, having "Jesus Christ" saying that He wasn't the Messiah.....   Roll Eyes  Tongue

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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 08:45:10 PM »


Muslim scholars, having been spurred by people like Dan Brown or Bart Ehrman, have recently proposed that the New Testament cannot be genuine because it was written in none of Jesus' languages (Hebrew and Aramaic). This language issue is often brought up by Muslims who object to the authenticity of the canonical Gospels. Ironically, Muhammad's demon was definitely unaware of this argument because he said that Jesus was given a revelation named Injil, which is the Arabic transliteration of the Greek word Euangelion!!! Cheesy


On another note, why is it unreasonable to posit that Christ may well have spoken Greek alongside of Hebrew and Aramaic?  Greek was the lingua franca and the area of Judea had been thoroughly Hellenized since the days of the Seleucid Empire.
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 12:30:36 AM »


Muslim scholars, having been spurred by people like Dan Brown or Bart Ehrman, have recently proposed that the New Testament cannot be genuine because it was written in none of Jesus' languages (Hebrew and Aramaic). This language issue is often brought up by Muslims who object to the authenticity of the canonical Gospels. Ironically, Muhammad's demon was definitely unaware of this argument because he said that Jesus was given a revelation named Injil, which is the Arabic transliteration of the Greek word Euangelion!!! Cheesy


On another note, why is it unreasonable to posit that Christ may well have spoken Greek alongside of Hebrew and Aramaic?  Greek was the lingua franca and the area of Judea had been thoroughly Hellenized since the days of the Seleucid Empire.

I point that out to people who claim Jesus only spoke Hebrew or Aramaic all the time and all I ever get is something like "I don't know anything at all about history and I don't want to believe you, so, no - no one in the Middle East spoke Greek." Its really exasperating when its coming from other Christians, who believe Jesus is God, yet somehow incapable of speaking some languages.
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 01:42:37 AM »

The majority of the linguists whom I've read who have discussed the linguistic situation of the area in Jesus' time do accept the idea that our Lord likely would have had knowledge of Greek. It is an uncontroversial idea, but I suppose that doesn't stop some who (need to) believe that rigid language/dialect boundaries that don't even exist now surely must've existed back then...usually to make everything fit with their particular theology/epistemology. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 02:03:27 AM »

What language would the Lord and Pontius Pilate have spoken during their exchange?

I had always assumed they spoke in Greek ...
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 07:07:50 AM »

Gotta love pseudo-journalistic speculation.  The Gospel of Barnabas is a ridiculous document probably from the Moores in which the author did not even know that Christ and Messiah meant the same thing, having "Jesus Christ" saying that He wasn't the Messiah.....   Roll Eyes  Tongue



Yes, that is weird indeed. Maybe the author did not really know that the two words (Christ and Messiah) meant the same thing in different languages. However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic. After all, we have the word Messiah in Arabic and the Qur'an, the Hebrew rather than the Greek term having been transliterated into Arabic.
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 07:09:16 AM »


On another note, why is it unreasonable to posit that Christ may well have spoken Greek alongside of Hebrew and Aramaic?  Greek was the lingua franca and the area of Judea had been thoroughly Hellenized since the days of the Seleucid Empire.

In an effort to support their weak and baseless assertion, Muslim scholars definitely overlook and/or deny this possibility.  angel
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 07:11:37 AM »

The majority of the linguists whom I've read who have discussed the linguistic situation of the area in Jesus' time do accept the idea that our Lord likely would have had knowledge of Greek. It is an uncontroversial idea, but I suppose that doesn't stop some who (need to) believe that rigid language/dialect boundaries that don't even exist now surely must've existed back then...usually to make everything fit with their particular theology/epistemology. Roll Eyes

Exactly! The same people overlook the fact that according to their scripture Allah gave Mary's son a revelation bearing a Greek title! Cheesy
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 07:14:29 AM »


I point that out to people who claim Jesus only spoke Hebrew or Aramaic all the time and all I ever get is something like "I don't know anything at all about history and I don't want to believe you, so, no - no one in the Middle East spoke Greek." Its really exasperating when its coming from other Christians, who believe Jesus is God, yet somehow incapable of speaking some languages.

Figure out the popularity of the Greek language in Israel at that time: we have the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which was used by our first martyr in his discourse to the Jews.  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 07:16:52 AM »

What language would the Lord and Pontius Pilate have spoken during their exchange?

I had always assumed they spoke in Greek ...

Since Muslims deny the Passion, they think that Jesus never entered Pontius Pilate's palace. They mostly believe that someone else (number one candidate being Judas Iscariot) was accidentally considered Jesus and crucified in His stead. This would mean that Judas Iscariot could speak Greek though.  Grin
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« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 07:48:25 AM »

What language would the Lord and Pontius Pilate have spoken during their exchange?

I had always assumed they spoke in Greek ...

In Master and Margarita they used Russian to speak with each other.  I'm going to go with that as the correct answer. 
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« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 10:58:37 AM »

What language would the Lord and Pontius Pilate have spoken during their exchange?

I had always assumed they spoke in Greek ...
If I remember correctly, Mel Gibson wanted us to believe they spoke in Latin. The Theologian and Evangelist John tells us that the title on the cross was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin (John 19:20), so it's not impossible.
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« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 11:34:27 AM »

What language would the Lord and Pontius Pilate have spoken during their exchange?

I had always assumed they spoke in Greek ...
If I remember correctly, Mel Gibson wanted us to believe they spoke in Latin. The Theologian and Evangelist John tells us that the title on the cross was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin (John 19:20), so it's not impossible.

Yes, Jesus and Pilate are speaking Latin in the The Passion.

I've always assumed Greek because, as noted earlier, it was the lingua franca of the region.  From what I remember of my linguistics courses in college, practically everyone, even the most ignorant, knew a few words of Greek; it would have taken some effort to not know something of the language.
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« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 11:44:33 AM »

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However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.
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« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2012, 02:49:05 PM »

So if this 1500 year old bible has all the books that are in the Orthodox bible, how soon do you think some protestant groups will say its a fake?

PP
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« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 06:09:02 PM »

It is funny indeed that an Islamic newspaper suggests that this Bible could be an old copy of the medieval Gospel of Barnabas written in Aramaic!  The medieval Gospel of Barnabas was first devised in Spanish and Italian though. Further, its author never claimed that Jesus got His "true Gospel" written in Aramaic or Hebrew rather than Greek.

Muslim scholars, having been spurred by people like Dan Brown or Bart Ehrman, have recently proposed that the New Testament cannot be genuine because it was written in none of Jesus' languages (Hebrew and Aramaic). This language issue is often brought up by Muslims who object to the authenticity of the canonical Gospels. Ironically, Muhammad's demon was definitely unaware of this argument because he said that Jesus was given a revelation named Injil, which is the Arabic transliteration of the Greek word Euangelion!!! Cheesy

Christians, fasten your seatbelts and be ready for a new conspiracy theory targetting the Bible and Christian tenets.   Roll Eyes
It is interesting how the more we uncover of the earliest texts, the more the support for the Christian account of the New Testament is solidified, whereas the more the earliest texts of the Quran are uncovered (some were found in a mosque in Yemen) the more the Muslim claim of the text of the Quran never changing is undermined (which is why the Muslims try to suppress such evidence: a dig in Saudi Arabia undercovered Quranic texts from the first Islamic century.  The Saudi government confiscated them, and they haven't seen the light of day).

Also it is interesting that Muslims keep on looking for an "ancient" Gospel of Barnabas (the earliest copy of it is post 1588 (the watermarks on the paper) and ignore the earliest papyri of the NT (which date to within a few decades of the composition of the books).  Won't fit the narrative.
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« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2012, 10:47:30 PM »

I'm a new member, so I'd like to say hello to everyone. Smiley

Quote
Figure out the popularity of the Greek language in Israel at that time: we have the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which was used by our first martyr in his discourse to the Jews. 
[/size]

I believe the teachers in Rome were  Greek, so Pontius Pilate had to know Greek fluently.   The name Stephan is also Greek, and Judas is called 'is' cariot, which translates from the Greek as Judas the Cariot.  I'm surprised that Mel Gibson wasn't aware of the dominance of the Greek language in that part of the world...probably because he's very Latin oriented.

As for the Muslims, if their history  is taught the way it is in Turkey,  then the Greeks didn't come into that part of the world until the seventh century.  They  have a strange tendency  of seeing things in  ways that  tend to gratify their religious/political agendas.
   Huh
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« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2012, 11:03:37 PM »

I think Gibson said he chose Latin because it was more readily distinguishable from the Aramaic dialog. Compared to the other artistic decisions made in the movie, that seems totally reasonable.
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« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2012, 11:05:58 PM »

I think Gibson said he chose Latin because it was more readily distinguishable from the Aramaic dialog. Compared to the other artistic decisions made in the movie, that seems totally reasonable.

I suppose we should be grateful. I'm sure we would've all been subjected to some sort of reconstructed pronunciation which would have wounded our souls, had Mr Gibson preferred the Greek.
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« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2012, 11:11:26 PM »


I think Gibson said he chose Latin because it was more readily distinguishable from the Aramaic dialog. Compared to the other artistic decisions made in the movie, that seems totally reasonable.

Then what was Mr Gibson's reason for omitting the Greek inscription on the cross above Christ's head? The charge was written in Hebrew and Latin only. So much for the heavy publicity that this film was the latest in rigorous scholarship and accuracy, any Sunday school kid could have spotted this howler.
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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2012, 11:12:41 PM »

I suppose we should be grateful. I'm sure we would've all been subjected to some sort of reconstructed pronunciation which would have wounded our souls, had Mr Gibson preferred the Greek.

Erasmian pronunciation ... AIEEEEE!!!  Shocked Shocked Shocked
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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2012, 11:19:40 PM »

Would Christ ever have actually spoken Hebrew? Wasn't it more of a Church Slavonic-type liturgical language or language of the plebs?
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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2012, 11:53:56 PM »

I suppose we should be grateful. I'm sure we would've all been subjected to some sort of reconstructed pronunciation which would have wounded our souls, had Mr Gibson preferred the Greek.

Erasmian pronunciation ... AIEEEEE!!!  Shocked Shocked Shocked

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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2012, 11:55:47 PM »

I suppose we should be grateful. I'm sure we would've all been subjected to some sort of reconstructed pronunciation which would have wounded our souls, had Mr Gibson preferred the Greek.

Erasmian pronunciation ... AIEEEEE!!!  Shocked Shocked Shocked

apekrithē iēsous ē basileia ē emē ouk estin ek tou kosmou toutou ei ek tou kosmou toutou ēn ē basileia ē emē oi upēretai an oi emoi ēgōnizonto ina mē paradothō tois ioudaiois nun de ē basileia ē emē ouk estin enteuthen (John 18:36)

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« Reply #27 on: February 29, 2012, 12:05:15 PM »

Quote
I believe the teachers in Rome were  Greek, so Pontius Pilate had to know Greek fluently
Greek was the language de jure in the East for over 300 years by the time Pilate got there. Most teachers and doctors were greeks or could speak it fluently. So did most rich Romans who wanted to enter public service.

PP
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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2012, 10:59:47 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2012, 11:13:24 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2012, 11:15:01 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

I need you and Mario and Volnutt on my trivia team. The victories would be even uglier! (I mostly mean figuratively.)
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2012, 11:38:24 PM »

I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....
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« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2012, 11:41:11 PM »

I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.
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« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2012, 11:49:52 PM »

I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

Its my understanding that we have quite a bit here in Georgia.  I dont know the technical stats, but I have heard that we have more than one may assume.  I can also tell we have a decent about every time I drive down my street and around my city (Atlanta.)  However, im 100% certain that Arizona has many more hispanics.

Around here, there are several neighborhoods where even the signs are in Spanish.  In those places, everyone who lives there speaks Spanish.  But I still think a majority of them know at least a minimal amount of English.  I acknowledged that my analogy may be weak, but where I am it seems it could still be somewhat comparable to people in Christ time speaking there language while also knowing a minimal amount of Greek.

EDIT* Turns out I was referring to illegal immigration stats.  We rank #7 and Arizona ranks #6 in illegals. 
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« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2012, 06:35:50 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany,  is surprising.  Who in the world was in charge of the propaganda here, but then again one should never underestimate the 'cunning' of the British.

As for Greek, it probably was considered since it was an outcome of the Enlightenment, and it was being taught in the German schools.  I'm glad though that  it didn't succeed since I somehow feel it contributed to the 'nationalist' idolatry in Germany.  But these are only my thoughts on the subject.  Languages seem to have a strong affect on  people... Huh
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« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2012, 08:50:13 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany,  is surprising.  Who in the world was in charge of the propaganda here, but then again one should never underestimate the 'cunning' of the British.

As for Greek, it probably was considered since it was an outcome of the Enlightenment, and it was being taught in the German schools.  I'm glad though that  it didn't succeed since I somehow feel it contributed to the 'nationalist' idolatry in Germany.  But these are only my thoughts on the subject.  Languages seem to have a strong affect on  people... Huh

Do you think about what you're typing, or just string words together?
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2012, 10:02:07 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

I'd heard that statistic before and wasn't aware of the context. Thanks for the clarification. It does make sense that congress would want to make things bilingual, since many immigrant communities were quite isolated and would have lacked any exposure to English. Martin van Buren, for example, spoke English as a second language and was said to have a noticeable Dutch accent when he delivered his speeches.

Okay, so that last bit was just me lobbying for a spot on orthonorm's trivia team. If nothing else, I'd be a well-suited candidate geographically. I might actually be down in your city for a Bengals game this season. I'll be sure to let you know when so you can look down on Bengals fans especially snidely that day.
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2012, 10:53:43 PM »

Okay, so that last bit was just me lobbying for a spot on orthonorm's trivia team. If nothing else, I'd be a well-suited candidate geographically.

Only if you are able to be the sorest winner on the planet next to me.

Tonight, another decisive victory. Plain ugly.

Three members against enormous teams. One member is a question short of a GED I think.

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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2012, 11:50:07 AM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany,  is surprising.  Who in the world was in charge of the propaganda here, but then again one should never underestimate the 'cunning' of the British.

As for Greek, it probably was considered since it was an outcome of the Enlightenment, and it was being taught in the German schools.  I'm glad though that  it didn't succeed since I somehow feel it contributed to the 'nationalist' idolatry in Germany.  But these are only my thoughts on the subject.  Languages seem to have a strong affect on  people... Huh

Do you think about what you're typing, or just string words together?

 Well I guess I'm overestimated you.  I  do that at times, sorry.   Wink
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2012, 12:24:04 PM »

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany,  is surprising.  Who in the world was in charge of the propaganda here, but then again one should never underestimate the 'cunning' of the British.

As for Greek, it probably was considered since it was an outcome of the Enlightenment, and it was being taught in the German schools.  I'm glad though that  it didn't succeed since I somehow feel it contributed to the 'nationalist' idolatry in Germany.  But these are only my thoughts on the subject.  Languages seem to have a strong affect on  people... Huh

I read this and literally LMAO.
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2012, 10:01:50 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany,  is surprising.  Who in the world was in charge of the propaganda here, but then again one should never underestimate the 'cunning' of the British.

As for Greek, it probably was considered since it was an outcome of the Enlightenment, and it was being taught in the German schools.  I'm glad though that  it didn't succeed since I somehow feel it contributed to the 'nationalist' idolatry in Germany.  But these are only my thoughts on the subject.  Languages seem to have a strong affect on  people... Huh

Do you think about what you're typing, or just string words together?

 Well I guess I'm overestimated you.  I  do that at times, sorry.   Wink

Huh
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2012, 11:21:41 PM »

Only if you are able to be the sorest winner on the planet next to me.
I can probably pull that off. If all goes well, the Bengals game should give me good practice.
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« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2012, 11:02:32 AM »

Quote
Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!

and

Quote
Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany,  is surprising.  Who in the world was in charge of the propaganda here, but then again one should never underestimate the 'cunning' of the British.

As for Greek, it probably was considered since it was an outcome of the Enlightenment, and it was being taught in the German schools.  I'm glad though that  it didn't succeed since I somehow feel it contributed to the 'nationalist' idolatry in Germany.  But these are only my thoughts on the subject.  Languages seem to have a strong affect on  people

Please, please stop. You're really discounting yourself here. Please, please stop. Im tryin to be on your side darlin, but wow. I want your voice to be given credence in discussions, but stuff like this is really straining all credibility.....well...not just these two things but......


PP
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« Reply #43 on: May 27, 2012, 09:19:42 PM »

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Iran’s Basij Press is claiming a purported Gospel of Barnabas, discovered in 2000, will prove that Islam is the final and righteous religion, causing the collapse worldwide of Christianity.

http://www.worthynews.com/top/wnd-com-2012-05-iran-discovery-will-collapse-christianity-/
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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2012, 12:41:03 AM »

A good debunking: http://labarum.net/2012/05/24/the-gospel-of-barnabas-and-islamic-credulity/
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« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2012, 01:07:56 AM »

Read what the Assyrians (the people who can actually read this book in the original) are saying about this supposed discovery here.
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« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2012, 06:38:54 AM »

Read what the Assyrians (the people who can actually read this book in the original) are saying about this supposed discovery here.

So if it was written in the 1500's as claimed by the front cover in your article wouldn't that make this "Bible" only 500 years old?

Quote
Translation: In the name of our Lord, this book is written on the hands of the monks of the high monastery in Nineveh, in the 1,500th year of our Lord.

And of course the problem being that who ever wrote that used Modern Assyrian instead of Classical

Quote
Most significantly, this writing is in Modern Assyrian, which was standardized in the 1840s. The first bible in Modern Assyrian was produced in 1848. If this book were written in 1500 A.D. it should have been written in Classical Assyrian.

So now we have this being no older than 200 years old.

If, however, this "Bible" was written 1500 years ago (roughly being AD 500) that would still be plenty of time for some one to make up false claims about anything.

Of course any evidence of forgery will be overlooked by those who wish to bring about the downfall of Christianity...
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« Reply #47 on: May 28, 2012, 09:34:16 AM »

I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

I have come to doubt some of this.  My cop buddies tell me that Mexicans are like cue balls; the harder you hit them, the more English you get.  I have actually been witness to this (although no physical violence was used).  It was amazing how the gentleman went from "no comprende" to reasonably good English when he was told that he was going to take a ride to the police station unless he answered a couple of questions.  I have also been told that they become very educated at garage sales when they really want something and you tell them to speak English or GTFO.  They know far more English than they let on.
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« Reply #48 on: May 28, 2012, 09:44:59 AM »

I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

I have come to doubt some of this.  My cop buddies tell me that Mexicans are like cue balls; the harder you hit them, the more English you get.  I have actually been witness to this (although no physical violence was used).  It was amazing how the gentleman went from "no comprende" to reasonably good English when he was told that he was going to take a ride to the police station unless he answered a couple of questions.  I have also been told that they become very educated at garage sales when they really want something and you tell them to speak English or GTFO.  They know far more English than they let on.

This is in no way my experience.
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« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2012, 09:59:49 AM »

I always understood that Christ likely knew Greek as well as that was technically the official language of the Eastern Roman Empire.  Although most of the time they spoke in their native tongue.  

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but would it be similar to a hispanic neighborhood in America?  They speak Spanish in their neighborhood, but they obviously have to be somewhat aware of English too as it is the language of the land.

Maybe thats been covered already. Its late and when it gets late I start to ramble.  Im also almost to "Elder" status on this forum. Gotta keep posting....

You don't live in a state with many Hispanic people, do you?  Living in Arizona, I have met a multitude of Mexican-Americans (our most common Hispanic) who speak essentially no English and do not understand essentially any; such people are not even restricted to neighborhoods that are primarily Spanish speaking.  I mainly have lived in middle class areas of Chandler, AZ, and I have gone to school with people whose parents came from Mexico, and literally spoke almost no English at all.

I have come to doubt some of this.  My cop buddies tell me that Mexicans are like cue balls; the harder you hit them, the more English you get.  I have actually been witness to this (although no physical violence was used).  It was amazing how the gentleman went from "no comprende" to reasonably good English when he was told that he was going to take a ride to the police station unless he answered a couple of questions.  I have also been told that they become very educated at garage sales when they really want something and you tell them to speak English or GTFO.  They know far more English than they let on.

Yup.  I do the same in reverse.  In any interaction I have with any governmental employee I absolutely refuse to speak a word of Russian or Ukrainian.  It is pretty simple - then they can't ask me for bribes.  If they try, I just play dumb and waste their time.  Once they get tired of it they just go about doing their job and leave me alone.  It is great living in a culture infused with the Orthodox ethos.  
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« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2012, 03:16:11 PM »

"The Bible reportedly contains early teachings of Jesus Christ"

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I have one of those:
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« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2012, 03:25:17 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.
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« Reply #52 on: May 28, 2012, 03:30:02 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.
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« Reply #53 on: May 28, 2012, 03:32:49 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Okay it is absurd, although the Germans conducted everything in German until WWI.  How in the world we ever entered in that war when one takes into account the amount of Germans living here, and that they always spoke German and only intermarried with Germans in Germany
LOL.  A tad dogmatic there.
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« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2012, 04:39:39 PM »

Here we find an interesting solution to the mystery of the medieval Gospel of Barnabas:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110607130920/http://www.latrobe.edu.au/arts/barnabas/marino.html

This professor thinks that the so-called Islamic Gospel of Barnabas owes its existence to the rivalry and struggle of some Catholic clergymen on their way to Papacy.  Shocked
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« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2012, 08:38:15 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh
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« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2012, 06:56:41 AM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."
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« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2012, 09:21:12 AM »

Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP
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« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2012, 10:07:47 AM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Most people would say the legal language of bill's, torts, laws, etc., are in Greek.   Wink
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« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2012, 11:44:22 AM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?

Most people would say the legal language of bill's, torts, laws, etc., are in Greek.   Wink
Not in America they're not. At least not to my knowledge.

PP
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« Reply #60 on: May 29, 2012, 02:04:24 PM »

Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

And what might those interests have been?  (Hint: Nye Committee)
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« Reply #61 on: May 29, 2012, 04:19:30 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 
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« Reply #62 on: May 29, 2012, 04:23:09 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 
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« Reply #63 on: May 29, 2012, 04:30:19 PM »

Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  Shocked
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« Reply #64 on: May 29, 2012, 04:55:36 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

I would have assumed Dutch, but oh well!  Plattdeutsch, perhaps?   Wink

Depending on where you live, and how well you know the history of the area, the existence of ethnic communities in history can almost be taken for granted.  It's not just the Germans.  Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, Czechs...all had ethnic communities where their languages, customs, and religions were maintained.  Many of these groups married amongst themselves and really didn't start assimilating into "mainstream America" until after WWII.  There is still a "Little Italy" part of Omaha and many old Italian families.  Almost all of these families have intermarried into the rest of the general population, but there certainly was a time where it was primarily an Italian neighborhood.  There are other examples, just in my own town, but the Italian one is the one I am the most familiar with.
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« Reply #65 on: May 29, 2012, 05:05:27 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

And yet my select cases are more than your cases. Don't you find it strange that someone whose family was here for many generations would marry someone from Germany rather than an American of another ethnicity?  Shouldn't that alone say something?  I know when Alexis De Tocqueville visited the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century, he found enclaves of people speaking different languages, such as French, German, Dutch, etc.   Don't the Pennsylvania Dutch still speak German?

Anyway I find it upsetting that children would be deprived of learning another language for whatever reason.

This should be of interest to you:

"... In Cincinnati, the public library was asked to withdraw all German books from its shelves. German-named streets were renamed. The town, Berlin, Michigan, was changed to Marne, Michigan (honoring those who fought in the Battle of Marne). In Iowa, in the 1918 Babel Proclamation, the governor prohibited all foreign languages in schools and public places. Nebraska banned instruction in any language except English, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the ban illegal in 1923 (Meyer v. Nebraska).The response of German Americans to these tactics was often to "Americanize" names (e.g. Schmidt to Smith, Müller to Miller) and limit the use of the German language in public places, especially churches..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#World_War_I_anti-German_sentiment
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« Reply #66 on: May 29, 2012, 06:20:53 PM »

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Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  Shocked

And we, in the twentieth century, had plans in case we ever wanted to invade Canada, your point?
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« Reply #67 on: May 29, 2012, 06:22:37 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

And yet my select cases are more than your cases. Don't you find it strange that someone whose family was here for many generations would marry someone from Germany rather than an American of another ethnicity?  Shouldn't that alone say something?  I know when Alexis De Tocqueville visited the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century, he found enclaves of people speaking different languages, such as French, German, Dutch, etc.   Don't the Pennsylvania Dutch still speak German?

Anyway I find it upsetting that children would be deprived of learning another language for whatever reason.

This should be of interest to you:

"... In Cincinnati, the public library was asked to withdraw all German books from its shelves. German-named streets were renamed. The town, Berlin, Michigan, was changed to Marne, Michigan (honoring those who fought in the Battle of Marne). In Iowa, in the 1918 Babel Proclamation, the governor prohibited all foreign languages in schools and public places. Nebraska banned instruction in any language except English, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the ban illegal in 1923 (Meyer v. Nebraska).The response of German Americans to these tactics was often to "Americanize" names (e.g. Schmidt to Smith, Müller to Miller) and limit the use of the German language in public places, especially churches..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#World_War_I_anti-German_sentiment

Note the word "often" in the quote your provide, versus the "all" in your own statement.  You have an extreme tendency to make incredibly broad generalizations and other comments that are lacking, a great deal, in intellectual merit.
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« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2012, 06:24:33 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

I would have assumed Dutch, but oh well!  Plattdeutsch, perhaps?   Wink

Depending on where you live, and how well you know the history of the area, the existence of ethnic communities in history can almost be taken for granted.  It's not just the Germans.  Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, Czechs...all had ethnic communities where their languages, customs, and religions were maintained.  Many of these groups married amongst themselves and really didn't start assimilating into "mainstream America" until after WWII.  There is still a "Little Italy" part of Omaha and many old Italian families.  Almost all of these families have intermarried into the rest of the general population, but there certainly was a time where it was primarily an Italian neighborhood.  There are other examples, just in my own town, but the Italian one is the one I am the most familiar with.

Actually I am under the impression that my family hails from Bavaria, though I might not be correct on that point.  If I ever get around to e-mailing my dad about the family history (something I've been meaning to do for nearly a year), I'll let you know.
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« Reply #69 on: May 30, 2012, 03:44:56 AM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

I would have assumed Dutch, but oh well!  Plattdeutsch, perhaps?   Wink

Depending on where you live, and how well you know the history of the area, the existence of ethnic communities in history can almost be taken for granted.  It's not just the Germans.  Italians, Jews, Poles, Irish, Czechs...all had ethnic communities where their languages, customs, and religions were maintained.  Many of these groups married amongst themselves and really didn't start assimilating into "mainstream America" until after WWII.  There is still a "Little Italy" part of Omaha and many old Italian families.  Almost all of these families have intermarried into the rest of the general population, but there certainly was a time where it was primarily an Italian neighborhood.  There are other examples, just in my own town, but the Italian one is the one I am the most familiar with.

Actually I am under the impression that my family hails from Bavaria, though I might not be correct on that point.  If I ever get around to e-mailing my dad about the family history (something I've been meaning to do for nearly a year), I'll let you know.

Could easily be Bavarian. Bavarian dialect differs quite a lot from standard Hochdeutsch but it is still a high German dialect not a low German one. The name doesn't sound terribly Platt to me. Admittedly, the Plattduutsch I'm familiar with is the dialect around Bremen and there is no standard form (and different Orthographies as well) so I could easily be incorrect, but I'd say Bavarian was very plausible.
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« Reply #70 on: May 30, 2012, 04:37:37 PM »

Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  Shocked

And we, in the twentieth century, had plans in case we ever wanted to invade Canada, your point?

Hey I never knew that.  Funny that it was in the 19th century and not earlier.  Was there a specific reason for it?  Boy that aroused my curiousity, thanks.  I only wish more information was forthcoming.  Ahh! Will my  curiousity never cease.    Wink
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 04:38:10 PM by Zenovia » Logged
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« Reply #71 on: May 30, 2012, 04:49:48 PM »

Quote
However, it is still possible that he considered the Hebrew word Messiah more theological and authentic.

Utter rubbish. Every language with a decent vocabulary can express theological concepts adequately. English, mongrel language that it is, has, perhaps, the richest vocabularies of all modern languages.


Okay I'm going to go into a bit of history here.   Congress at one time wanted to make Greek the official language but Webster had incorporated so many Greek words into the English language that it wasn't needed.  It lost out by three votes. ..or so I heard.  I also  heard German lost by one vote.  Tough luck guys!  Tongue

This is absolutely false.  There is very little evidence that the Continental Congress ever seriously considered an alternative to English as an official language (other proposed alternatives included French).  On the second point, the bill regarding German - that did in fact lose by one vote - was a bill that would have published all acts of Congress in German as well as English, not a bill making German the official language.

Think about it, is there really any reason that anything other than English would ever have been given serious thought for an official language, when it has always been - by far - the most known language in the United States?
The Puritans toyed with the idea of adopting Hebrew, over two centuries before Ben Yehuda.

That's true, but I didn't think Zenovia was referring to that.

Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?

Of course I know the sinking of the Lusitania by the Germans was a great propaganda tool for the British, but the U.S. government was supporting Britain even before that or the ship wouldn't have been sunk.   Huh

Can you support your claim that Germans only spoke German and only married Germans? 

The only really surprising thing about our involvement in WWI was that Wilson managed to overcome the non-interventionists and get the country excited about war, when he won re-election in 1916 on a campaign of "I kept us out of war."

I'm kind of old, so I've come across quite a few things.  Lawrence Welk, who had a show on TV in the 1960's and 70's had a strong German accent and yet he was born and raised in N. Dakota.  He once said that everyone spoke German even in his school.  I even had a childhood friend whose father's family was in this country for generations, and her mother was born and raised in Germany.  Her uncle even served in the German army so their land wouldn't be confiscated by Hitler.

My sister had German in laws.  Her father in law's family was here for generations, and her mother in law's grandmother was born in Germany.  They gave up the Germany language and changed  their name to a more English sounding one as did all the Germans after the sinking of the Lusitania.  I know that the stores of Germantown in NYC were smashed  and people were  being stoned as well. I'll never forget this elementary anti German school book I had once seen.  It went something like this:   This is a Hun.  What is a Hun....

I believe it was after WWII that the Germans  came out of their enclaves and began to intermarry.   Huh   

 

My father's family came over to America shortly before the start of WWI, yet before WWII the German part of the family was intermarried.  Further, does my last name - Rottnek - really sound English?  Everyone I've ever met, who has commented on the matter, assumed German.  You assume WAY too much from a few select cases. 

And yet my select cases are more than your cases. Don't you find it strange that someone whose family was here for many generations would marry someone from Germany rather than an American of another ethnicity?  Shouldn't that alone say something?  I know when Alexis De Tocqueville visited the U.S. in the first half of the 19th century, he found enclaves of people speaking different languages, such as French, German, Dutch, etc.   Don't the Pennsylvania Dutch still speak German?

Anyway I find it upsetting that children would be deprived of learning another language for whatever reason.

This should be of interest to you:

"... In Cincinnati, the public library was asked to withdraw all German books from its shelves. German-named streets were renamed. The town, Berlin, Michigan, was changed to Marne, Michigan (honoring those who fought in the Battle of Marne). In Iowa, in the 1918 Babel Proclamation, the governor prohibited all foreign languages in schools and public places. Nebraska banned instruction in any language except English, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the ban illegal in 1923 (Meyer v. Nebraska).The response of German Americans to these tactics was often to "Americanize" names (e.g. Schmidt to Smith, Müller to Miller) and limit the use of the German language in public places, especially churches..."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#World_War_I_anti-German_sentiment

Note the word "often" in the quote your provide, versus the "all" in your own statement.  You have an extreme tendency to make incredibly broad generalizations and other comments that are lacking, a great deal, in intellectual merit.

I never said 'all', I said the Germans changed their names.  The 'all' was added by you for whatever reason.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #72 on: May 30, 2012, 04:58:01 PM »

From a 1.500 yo Bible to Bavaria  Grin
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« Reply #73 on: May 30, 2012, 10:12:18 PM »

From a 1.500 yo Bible to Bavaria  Grin

Strange things a-happening?   Shocked Cry Angry Tongue
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« Reply #74 on: May 30, 2012, 10:14:09 PM »

Quote
Okay let me explain why I said it's amazing that we entered WWI when one considers that the Germans spoke German and even married Germans from Germany.  If the population in the U.S. is  English first, then German, Scotch, French and Irish, and if the Germans had such an affinity for Germany that they retained their language and even conducted their business in German, and the Irish in the U.S. were so adamantly against the American WASPS, (white Anglo/Saxon Protestants), then isn't it strange that we were able to enter the war against Germany?
No, its not strange at all. A cursory review of the reasons for war would point out the glaring conflict between the interests of Germany and the interests of the United States.

Using your logic, it would be shocking that we had the War of 1812 since we were all white and all either Brittish or former Brittish.

PP

Now this is going to be even more shocking.  I read that before the rise of Hitler, some in the British Parliament advocated a war with the U.S. because of the size of our fleet.  Shocked

And we, in the twentieth century, had plans in case we ever wanted to invade Canada, your point?

Hey I never knew that.  Funny that it was in the 19th century and not earlier.  Was there a specific reason for it?  Boy that aroused my curiousity, thanks.  I only wish more information was forthcoming.  Ahh! Will my  curiousity never cease.    Wink

We've actually invaded a number of countries; I suppose the thing that rally cemented some sort of alliance and stability between Western countries would probably have been the start of the Cold War, though that's just a guess.
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