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« on: February 16, 2012, 08:41:40 PM »

I've just started reading "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
What do the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches say about such revelations?
And are there any Orthodoxes who had similar revelations?
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 04:35:02 AM »

Visions of the non-Orthodox are generally to be considered to be either hallucinations or the results of diabolic influence.

Yes, such things happen in the Church.
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 04:49:28 AM »

I've just started reading "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
Why do they have to give them such creepy titles?
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 03:46:02 PM »

I've just started reading "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
Why do they have to give them such creepy titles?

What's "creepy" about it?  "Dolorous" just means sorrowful.  Was His Passion *not* sorrowful?

For what it's worth, this book was ostensibly the basis of Gibson's movie, "The Passion of the Christ".
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 03:53:14 PM »

Visions of the non-Orthodox are generally to be considered to be either hallucinations or the results of diabolic influence.

Yes, such things happen in the Church.

So.....non-Orthodox (Catholic??) revelations are hallucinations or diabolic but those that "happen in the Church" (Orthodox Church only??) are not?  Or, by "the Church" do you perhaps mean also the Catholic Church, which, btw, is *extremely* cautious about verifying and approving private revelations?
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 03:59:51 PM »

The article "Visions Outside the Church" is worth reading on this subject, though it deals primarily with the subject of Marian apparitions:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/visions-outside-the-church.aspx
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 04:29:00 PM »

The article "Visions Outside the Church" is worth reading on this subject, though it deals primarily with the subject of Marian apparitions:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/visions-outside-the-church.aspx

Thank you.  I've read that before.  It doesn't, however, address my questions.

The author of the article, I believe, misunderstands Catholicism.  The first sentence of the last paragraph states, "We do not need heterodox apparitions to call us to repentance, prayer, and fasting."  As far as that goes, that is true.  We, in the Catholic Church, do not need them either.  When legitimate and approved, they may sometimes help some people grow in faith.  They are, as I said however, *not* required.

But this thread is not meant to be a critique of or debate about one monk's article, I believe  Wink.
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 04:49:58 PM »

I've just started reading "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
Why do they have to give them such creepy titles?

What's "creepy" about it?  "Dolorous" just means sorrowful.  Was His Passion *not* sorrowful?
It has that Edgar Allen Poe feel.

Or perhaps the Cremation of Sam McGee.
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 05:00:17 PM »

The significant place given to such descriptive and detailed visions among the Roman Catholic "mystics" is a peculiar feature of post-Schism Roman Catholic "spirituality" and is not compatible with the spiritual sobriety and warnings against such phenomena that are characteristic of the pre-Schism saints and Fathers such as the Desert Fathers, St. Anthony the Great, the writers of the Philokalia, etc.  The Orthodox approach to such phenomena is in agreement with the approach of the early ascetics and hesychasts, and can be described as follows:


St. Neilos of Sinai (fifth century)

"Do not desire to physically see the Angels or Powers, or Christ, that you may not lose your mind from accepting a wolf instead of a shepherd, and worshipping our adversaries, the demons."


St.Diadochos of Photiki (5th century) on Spiritual Knowledge, p. 264, Philokalia Vol 1.

“We have now explained the distinction between good and bad dreams, as we ourselves heard it from those with experience.  In our quest for purity, however, the safest rule is never to trust in anything that appears to us in our dreams.  For dreams are generally nothing more than images reflecting our wandering thoughts, or else they are the mockery of demons.  And if ever God in His goodness were to send some vision and we were to refuse it, our beloved Lord Jesus would not be angry with us, for He would know that we were acting in this way because of the tricks of the demons.  Although the distinction between types of established above is precise, it sometimes happens that when the soul has been sullied by an unperceived beguilement – something from which no one, it seems to me, is exempt – it loses its sense of accurate discrimination and mistakes bad dreams for good.”


St. Symeon the New Theologian (ninth century) On Three Kinds of Prayer

"[To] imagine heavenly blessings, the ranks of angels, or habitations of the saints…is a sign of prelest (delusion)."

"They are deluded who are on that path, who see light with their physical eyes, smell fragrances with their sense of smell, hear voices with their ears, and suchlike."


Professor Alexei Osipov of Moscow further comments on Roman Catholic "mysticism" in this article:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html



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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 05:00:38 PM »

I've just started reading "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
Why do they have to give them such creepy titles?

What's "creepy" about it?  "Dolorous" just means sorrowful.  Was His Passion *not* sorrowful?
It has that Edgar Allen Poe feel.

Or perhaps the Cremation of Sam McGee.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2012, 05:22:31 PM »

The significant place given to such descriptive and detailed visions among the Roman Catholic "mystics" is a peculiar feature of post-Schism Roman Catholic "spirituality" and is not compatible with the spiritual sobriety and warnings against such phenomena that are characteristic of the pre-Schism saints and Fathers such as the Desert Fathers, St. Anthony the Great, the writers of the Philokalia, etc.  The Orthodox approach to such phenomena is in agreement with the approach of the early ascetics and hesychasts, and can be described as follows:


St. Neilos of Sinai (fifth century)

"Do not desire to physically see the Angels or Powers, or Christ, that you may not lose your mind from accepting a wolf instead of a shepherd, and worshipping our adversaries, the demons."


St.Diadochos of Photiki (5th century) on Spiritual Knowledge, p. 264, Philokalia Vol 1.

“We have now explained the distinction between good and bad dreams, as we ourselves heard it from those with experience.  In our quest for purity, however, the safest rule is never to trust in anything that appears to us in our dreams.  For dreams are generally nothing more than images reflecting our wandering thoughts, or else they are the mockery of demons.  And if ever God in His goodness were to send some vision and we were to refuse it, our beloved Lord Jesus would not be angry with us, for He would know that we were acting in this way because of the tricks of the demons.  Although the distinction between types of established above is precise, it sometimes happens that when the soul has been sullied by an unperceived beguilement – something from which no one, it seems to me, is exempt – it loses its sense of accurate discrimination and mistakes bad dreams for good.”


St. Symeon the New Theologian (ninth century) On Three Kinds of Prayer

"[To] imagine heavenly blessings, the ranks of angels, or habitations of the saints…is a sign of prelest (delusion)."

"They are deluded who are on that path, who see light with their physical eyes, smell fragrances with their sense of smell, hear voices with their ears, and suchlike."


Professor Alexei Osipov of Moscow further comments on Roman Catholic "mysticism" in this article:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html






Just gotta love how dismissive Orthodox are of Catholic mysiticism  Roll Eyes.  I've read his article before and didn't agree with it then--when I was Orthodox.  But, I'm no professor, so my opinion won't count for much.

From what I can perceive, private revelations/visions, etc. are a relatively small part of the fabric of the Catholic faith.  Many Catholics pay them no heed whatsoever.  Some, a few, put great emphasis on them.  I'm not so sure that to say they hold a "significant" place in Catholic spirituality is entirely accurate.  I am, however, willing to be wrong about that.

I would agree that some alleged visions or revelations are nothing more than possible hallucinations, demonic visitations, dreams, or just plain fabrications.  Catholic popes and bishops are, on the whole, not fools and not stupid.  They know this far better than you or I.  And that is *precisely* why such reported visions, etc. are treated and investigated so very carefully, and also why we are not required to believe them as fundamental matters of faith.

Having said that, to dismiss all of Catholic mysticism and the legitimate visions or revelations therein is, to me, nothing short of gross arrogance and inappropriate triumphalism.

By the way, I'm not so sure, either, that those people whose revelations or visions have been accepted actively pursued them or sought them out.  But then, that's just another thing I just don't know.
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »

For the record, relatively very few of the total claimed visions are given formal approval by the RCC. When you hear about someone claiming that a potato chip looks like a saint with a halo... Probably that's not going to be one of the approvals. Wink
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 06:47:51 PM »

The significant place given to such descriptive and detailed visions among the Roman Catholic "mystics" is a peculiar feature of post-Schism Roman Catholic "spirituality" and is not compatible with the spiritual sobriety and warnings against such phenomena that are characteristic of the pre-Schism saints and Fathers such as the Desert Fathers, St. Anthony the Great, the writers of the Philokalia, etc.  The Orthodox approach to such phenomena is in agreement with the approach of the early ascetics and hesychasts, and can be described as follows:


St. Neilos of Sinai (fifth century)

"Do not desire to physically see the Angels or Powers, or Christ, that you may not lose your mind from accepting a wolf instead of a shepherd, and worshipping our adversaries, the demons."


St.Diadochos of Photiki (5th century) on Spiritual Knowledge, p. 264, Philokalia Vol 1.

“We have now explained the distinction between good and bad dreams, as we ourselves heard it from those with experience.  In our quest for purity, however, the safest rule is never to trust in anything that appears to us in our dreams.  For dreams are generally nothing more than images reflecting our wandering thoughts, or else they are the mockery of demons.  And if ever God in His goodness were to send some vision and we were to refuse it, our beloved Lord Jesus would not be angry with us, for He would know that we were acting in this way because of the tricks of the demons.  Although the distinction between types of established above is precise, it sometimes happens that when the soul has been sullied by an unperceived beguilement – something from which no one, it seems to me, is exempt – it loses its sense of accurate discrimination and mistakes bad dreams for good.”


St. Symeon the New Theologian (ninth century) On Three Kinds of Prayer

"[To] imagine heavenly blessings, the ranks of angels, or habitations of the saints…is a sign of prelest (delusion)."

"They are deluded who are on that path, who see light with their physical eyes, smell fragrances with their sense of smell, hear voices with their ears, and suchlike."


Professor Alexei Osipov of Moscow further comments on Roman Catholic "mysticism" in this article:

http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/12/delusions-of-catholic-mystics.html






Just gotta love how dismissive Orthodox are of Catholic mysiticism  Roll Eyes.

Actually, I've only witnessed this dismissiveness on this forum. In real life Orthodox believers are much more open to God working where He so Wills; Catholic Church included; and they would usually not make such negative comments as you have no doubt witnessed  Wink Religions forums like this, and I happen to like this one, are hot-beds of triumphalism. I'm sure you have witnessed the same thing on Catholic internet forums.

Quote

Having said that, to dismiss all of Catholic mysticism and the legitimate visions or revelations therein is, to me, nothing short of gross arrogance and inappropriate triumphalism.

Indeed. Forgive us.

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« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2012, 04:55:50 AM »

Why would God advice to join schismatic groups instead of the Church?
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2012, 01:11:47 PM »

I've just started reading "The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ".
Who's the author?
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2012, 01:21:45 PM »

Peter: I did a google search for that title, came up with this link from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Dolorous-Passion-Lord-Jesus-Christ/dp/0895552108

Looks like more fuel for the RC miracle industry. This is unacceptable.
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2012, 01:35:46 PM »

Peter: I did a google search for that title, came up with this link from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Dolorous-Passion-Lord-Jesus-Christ/dp/0895552108

Looks like more fuel for the RC miracle industry. This is unacceptable.
"RC miracle industry"? That sounds rather crass. Could you please explain what you mean by that?
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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2012, 01:37:30 PM »

Peter: I did a google search for that title, came up with this link from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Dolorous-Passion-Lord-Jesus-Christ/dp/0895552108

Looks like more fuel for the RC miracle industry. This is unacceptable.
"RC miracle industry"? That sounds rather crass. Could you please explain what you mean by that?

Sounds like he means the miracles MUST be fake, especially with so many.
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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2012, 01:42:13 PM »

Peter: I did a google search for that title, came up with this link from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Dolorous-Passion-Lord-Jesus-Christ/dp/0895552108

Looks like more fuel for the RC miracle industry. This is unacceptable.

*NO ONE* is either asking or requiring that you accept them.  Or...even read them, for that matter.

Ha---"miracle industry".   Roll Eyes laugh Roll Eyes laugh Roll Eyes
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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2012, 01:46:21 PM »

Having been a RC myself until fairly recently, I can testify that there is a subsection of RC devotional practice and thought that can be very accurately described as such, whether you think it crass or not. As one negative review on the page I linked put it, while the RC tent is rather large when it comes to things like this, there are certain things that are outside of what is acceptable. The "visions" detailed in the book would seem to be a good example of that, and yet, just like Medjugorje (sp.?), many above the board RC businesses profit from the books, devotional cards, and other things that are sold in relation to them. So, yes, there is an RC miracle industry, and portions of it (built on unaccepted "visions" like this*) are unacceptable.

*- Her Wikipedia page here mentions that the Vatican disregarded the accounts of her supposed visions as written in Brentano's books when deciding whether or not to beatify her in 2004 due to serious concerns as to their authenticity.
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« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2012, 02:37:53 PM »

Having been a RC myself until fairly recently, I can testify that there is a subsection of RC devotional practice and thought that can be very accurately described as such, whether you think it crass or not. As one negative review on the page I linked put it, while the RC tent is rather large when it comes to things like this, there are certain things that are outside of what is acceptable. The "visions" detailed in the book would seem to be a good example of that, and yet, just like Medjugorje (sp.?), many above the board RC businesses profit from the books, devotional cards, and other things that are sold in relation to them. So, yes, there is an RC miracle industry, and portions of it (built on unaccepted "visions" like this*) are unacceptable.

*- Her Wikipedia page here mentions that the Vatican disregarded the accounts of her supposed visions as written in Brentano's books when deciding whether or not to beatify her in 2004 due to serious concerns as to their authenticity.

A good example of the caution exercised by the bishops with regards to private revelations and visions and precisely why I wrote that you have not been asked or required to accept it.  From the same page you linked above: "Emmerich was beatified on October 3, 2004 by Pope John Paul II.[1] However, the Vatican focused on her own personal piety and set the books written by Brentano aside while analysing the cause for her beatification, given that "It is absolutely not certain that she ever wrote this".[7][8]"

As for the "industry" you speak of, I have no idea of the dollar volume generated annually by it, but I'd imagine it's pretty small in relation to other industries.  There will, for better or worse, always be people willing to profit from all manner of things, and others just as willing to spend their money.  It's nothing unique or specific to the Catholic Church.  Not by a long shot.

The following is from here http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm and is interesting reading:

"Private Revelation. God continues to reveal Himself to individuals "not indeed for the declaration of any new doctrine of faith, but for the direction of human acts" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica II-II q174 a6 reply 3). Since it occurs after the close of Public Revelation the Church distinguishes the content of such particular revelations to individuals from the deposit of the Faith by calling it private revelation. The test of its authenticity is always its consistency with Public Revelation as guarded faithfully by the Catholic Church. For example, alleged revelations which propose to improve upon, correct or entirely supplant Public Revelation are rejected by the Church as inauthentic, regardless of the claims made for them. Such revelations include those of Mohammed in the Koran, Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, the writings of new age mystics, psychics and the like.

Some private revelations, however, the Church has accepted as credible, calling them constat de supernaturalitate (that is, they give evidence of a supernatural intervention). Such private revelations cannot correct or add anything essentially new to Public Revelation; however, they may contribute to a deeper understanding of the faith, provide new lines of theological investigation (such as suggested by the revelations to St. Margaret Mary on the Sacred Heart), or recall mankind prophetically to the living of the Gospel (as at Fátima). No private revelation can ever be necessary for salvation, though its content may obviously coincide with what is necessary for salvation as known from Scripture and Tradition. The person who believes the teachings of the Magisterium, utilizes devoutly the sacramental means of sanctification and prayer, and remains in Communion with the Pope and the bishops in union with him, is already employing the necessary means of salvation. A private revelation may recall wayward individuals to the faith, stir the devotion of the already pious, encourage prayer and penance on behalf of others, but it cannot substitute for the Catholic faith, the sacraments and hierarchical communion with the Pope and bishops.
"
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« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2012, 03:19:15 PM »

A good example of the caution exercised by the bishops with regards to private revelations and visions and precisely why I wrote that you have not been asked or required to accept it.  From the same page you linked above: "Emmerich was beatified on October 3, 2004 by Pope John Paul II.[1] However, the Vatican focused on her own personal piety and set the books written by Brentano aside while analysing the cause for her beatification, given that "It is absolutely not certain that she ever wrote this".[7][8]"

Of course.

Quote
As for the "industry" you speak of, I have no idea of the dollar volume generated annually by it, but I'd imagine it's pretty small in relation to other industries.
 

Not the point.

Quote
There will, for better or worse, always be people willing to profit from all manner of things, and others just as willing to spend their money.  It's nothing unique or specific to the Catholic Church.  Not by a long shot.

Of course. My only point is that this seems like another thing that is on par with the various other books, pamphlets and other things that substantiate private revelations that are not actually approved and/or considered necessary to believe by the RC church, but which form a significant part of its popular piety which by and large is indulged in unchecked. This ties back into your contention that I need not believe in them nor read about them. When I was still RC, this was one of my consolations, in that no matter what the local RC community did with regard to these apparitions, I didn't need to join in. But after a while, I noticed something: Denying a controversial apparition, like Medjugorje, was one thing -- other people might agree with you, or at least remind your detractors that it is not approved. However, denying a more established and/or approved apparition, like Fatima, effectively put you out of the RC mainstream. What with all of the private devotions established by such means, which are further popularized by RC media and whatnot, the unbinding nature of such devotions often seems more theoretical than actual. It would be right for you to respond to this by saying "Well, that may have been your own experience, but that doesn't change what the RC church teaches." This is true, but that likewise does not change the unhealthy spiritual environment that is created by the reality of this largely unchecked popular piety. I have talked to other people who are still devoted RCs who have made the same observations.

It's a pastoral problem, I think. As the devotions are popular and technically optional, the question of whether or not they are healthy is rarely asked. This seems to be foremost on the minds of the Orthodox saints quoted earlier, who recommend vigilance over laissez faire piety. I think those under the Vatican would do well to imitate them in this regard (and, in fairness, I know many who do and reject all such apparitions).
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« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2012, 03:27:59 PM »

Stick with public revelation, Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and (for Catholics) the Magisterium of the Church.  That really *should* be enough for most folks.

As I've said, the Vatican and the various bishops are extremely cautious when it comes to private revelations and visions.  They *add* nothing to the deposit of faith, and where approved, may sometimes be useful for some people.

There are, unfortunately, "unhealthy spiritual environments" in *every* faith.  Yes, even in Orthodoxy and I've seen it there.

Your'e right to say that it's pastoral problem, both in the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church, and needs to be dealt with--firmly and with love and charity.  Would that there were enough priests in both Churches willing and able and well-trained enough to do it. 
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 03:38:04 PM by J Michael » Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2012, 03:31:46 PM »

No complaints from me on that, J. Michael. Sounds like you are the kind of Catholic I was when I was still under Rome. Of course, that wasn't actually enough for me, but that's neither here nor there. Smiley
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