Hyperdox Herman

[NicholasMyra]

I rather favor the idea, depending on how "Constitutional" is interpreted.

An amendment to the U.S. Constitution creating a monarchy.

[NicholasMyra]

Tells son not to "take that tone with him";

It's only sung during the Paschal season.

[OrthoNoob]

I rather favor the idea, depending on how "Constitutional" is interpreted.

An amendment to the U.S. Constitution creating a monarchy.

Oh. Wow. Well, that's a bit impractical. But good luck to whoever it was.

[Michał Kalina]

and again

[Cognomen]

^ Bravo!!!   

[Kerdy]

I understand this is mostly in jest and much of it is true, but I was wondering where the harm is in people, new converts, getting excited over becoming Orthodox.  I'm asking from lack of experience knowing there is likely a problem which is normal I am, as of yet, unaware.

[NicholasMyra]

I was wondering where the harm is in people, new converts, getting excited over becoming Orthodox.

Excitement is not a problem.

Romanticizing and Divinizing Eastern Rome and various Slavic nations is a problem, however. See the Temptations of Jesus.

As is searching Orthodox Christianity for "the r34l" (slang term for the True Scotsman) Orthodox, who are then considered distinct from most Orthodox. See the Publican and the Pharisee.

[Kerdy]

I was wondering where the harm is in people, new converts, getting excited over becoming Orthodox.

Excitement is not a problem.

Romanticizing and Divinizing Eastern Rome and various Slavic nations is a problem, however. See the Temptations of Jesus.

As is searching Orthodox Christianity for "the r34l" (slang term for the True Scotsman) Orthodox, who are then considered distinct from most Orthodox. See the Publican and the Pharisee.

Empty actions vs. sincerity?

[NicholasMyra]

I was wondering where the harm is in people, new converts, getting excited over becoming Orthodox.

Excitement is not a problem.

Romanticizing and Divinizing Eastern Rome and various Slavic nations is a problem, however. See the Temptations of Jesus.

As is searching Orthodox Christianity for "the r34l" (slang term for the True Scotsman) Orthodox, who are then considered distinct from most Orthodox. See the Publican and the Pharisee.

Empty actions vs. sincerity?

Christ's rejection of the Kingdoms of the World, the Pharisees exaltation of his piety over most people.

[Kerdy]

I was wondering where the harm is in people, new converts, getting excited over becoming Orthodox.

Excitement is not a problem.

Romanticizing and Divinizing Eastern Rome and various Slavic nations is a problem, however. See the Temptations of Jesus.

As is searching Orthodox Christianity for "the r34l" (slang term for the True Scotsman) Orthodox, who are then considered distinct from most Orthodox. See the Publican and the Pharisee.

Empty actions vs. sincerity?

Christ's rejection of the Kingdoms of the World, the Pharisees exaltation of his piety over most people.

Got it now.  Thanks for taking the time to explain for me.

[NicholasMyra]

I was wondering where the harm is in people, new converts, getting excited over becoming Orthodox.

Excitement is not a problem.

Romanticizing and Divinizing Eastern Rome and various Slavic nations is a problem, however. See the Temptations of Jesus.

As is searching Orthodox Christianity for "the r34l" (slang term for the True Scotsman) Orthodox, who are then considered distinct from most Orthodox. See the Publican and the Pharisee.

Empty actions vs. sincerity?

Christ's rejection of the Kingdoms of the World, the Pharisees exaltation of his piety over most people.

Got it now.  Thanks for taking the time to explain for me.

No prob.

[NicholasMyra]

Refers to life before Chrismation:

"When I was still among the Nations..."

[Asteriktos]

Spends several hours developing scheme to memorize one of the Gospels each year.

Hasn't read the Bible in months.

[Severian]

Spends several hours developing scheme to memorize one of the Gospels each year.

Hasn't read the Bible in months.

IS OUTRAGE!!!

-He does not read the Bible

-Too Protestant

[William]

Rejects the "Cross Bearing Theotokos" icon because the archetype originated among heretics;

Accepts the Toll Houses.

Holds theological and sometimes political opinions contrary to those of the person making the meme at the moment.

I thought you'd agree with that one, William.

I do, actually.

[Asteriktos]

Parish bookstore has commentary that explains bible verse by verse.

Western captivity!

[William]

Hey guys, I like the idea of the 'Russian soul' and think that the last czar is actually a saint. Can I be Hyperdox Herman now?

[Gorazd]

Hey guys, I like the idea of the 'Russian soul' and think that the last czar is actually a saint. Can I be Hyperdox Herman now?

Maybe hyperdox Vladimir - yesterday a member of the Communist Party, today a hyperdox monarchist.
There are a lot of reasons not to consider the last tsar to be a saint - but since these are somewhat political, I would rather discuss it in the Politics Forum.

[OrthoNoob]

Hey guys, I like the idea of the 'Russian soul' and think that the last czar is actually a saint. Can I be Hyperdox Herman now?

Maybe hyperdox Vladimir - yesterday a member of the Communist Party, today a hyperdox monarchist.
There are a lot of reasons not to consider the last tsar to be a saint - but since these are somewhat political, I would rather discuss it in the Politics Forum.

I'm new to Orthodoxy, so help me out here. The Church glorified St. Nicholas II. Isn't that the end of it? Do your personal feelings, beliefs, or opinions (about him or any other saint) allow you to refuse to venerate a Saint She has proclaimed?

[augustin717]

Bloody holy Nicholas was a nice gentleman with rather petit bourgeois sensibilities and an incompetent ruler. That some put him in a calendar is only to please certain reactionary groups.

[OrthoNoob]

Bloody holy Nicholas was a nice gentleman with rather petit bourgeois sensibilities and an incompetent ruler. That some put him in a calendar is only to please certain reactionary groups.

I really don't want to debate monarchist vs. communist politics here. All I want to know is:

Can a faithful Orthodox Christian follow his own personal opinions in preference to the declarations of the Church when it comes to who is and is not a saint?

[augustin717]

He's only in the russian calendar anyways AFAIK. And I doubt he's gonna make it into another calendar.

[OrthoNoob]

He's only in the russian calendar anyways AFAIK. And I doubt he's gonna make it into another calendar.

So what does that mean for the Church universal? He's only in heaven in Russia?

[augustin717]

He's only in the russian calendar anyways AFAIK. And I doubt he's gonna make it into another calendar.

So what does that mean for the Church universal? He's only in heaven in Russia?

It means there is no office for him in Greek or Arabic or Romanian.

[genesisone]

Bloody holy Nicholas was a nice gentleman with rather petit bourgeois sensibilities and an incompetent ruler. That some put him in a calendar is only to please certain reactionary groups.

I really don't want to debate monarchist vs. communist politics here. All I want to know is:

Can a faithful Orthodox Christian follow his own personal opinions in preference to the declarations of the Church when it comes to who is and is not a saint?

I can't imagine that there is a ruling somewhere that says we must venerate each and every saint in the Orthodox Church. I don't know how many thousands there must be. I doubt that there is even a comprehensive list of all of them.

In the lives of most saints, one could quite likely find something objectionable.

Nicholas II was not canonized because of his politics or his ability (or lack of it) to rule the Russian Empire. That is a political question. He and his family were canonized for the way they met their death and for their Christian faith that prepared them to meet that death.

I think you're right that we need to set aside our personal feelings about any given person whom the Church declares to be a saint. We should at the very least have respect for the Church's action. However, that doesn't mean we won't have personal opinions. Really, there could easily be people in your own parish that you aren't particularly fond of  .

[NicholasMyra]

think that the last czar is actually a saint.

In the Methodist sense of the word or the ancient Christian sense of the word?

[NicholasMyra]

Can a faithful Orthodox Christian follow his own personal opinions in preference to the declarations of the Church when it comes to who is and is not a saint?

The Moscow Patriarchate or ROCOR do not speak infallibly ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals. This ain't the RCC.

If we followed everything that was "proclaimed" in the age that proclaimed it from every particular synod, we'd all be Arians. Or Nestorians. Or Julianists. Or Monothelites. or Iconoclasts. Or Roman Catholics.

[Gorazd]

If someone is a mass murderer, there should be evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he repented for it. That's my position. Maybe not so theologically elaborate, but I do they saints venerated by the church should be models for the faithful.

[OrthoNoob]

If someone is a mass murderer, there should be evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he repented for it. That's my position. Maybe not so theologically elaborate, but I do they saints venerated by the church should be models for the faithful.

I'm pretty sure I can't answer this accusation without dragging this thread into politics, so...

@Genesisone

I think you and I largely agree.

To clarify: I'm not saying I think each and every Orthodox Christian must personally pray to or kiss the icon of each and every canonized saint. I'm not even saying you have to particularly like every saint. But there is something that rubs me the wrong way about obstinately holding the opinion that a saint is not in fact a saint and proclaiming that to the world.

I'm new to Orthodoxy, and so it's possible that I'm wrong, and if there's a council or a canon or a tradition or a precedent or something that allows the opposition to the veneration of canonized saints or defines the Church's power to canonize in a way that makes such opposition make sense, I'd like to see it.

Maybe I don't really know what "canonization" is in Orthodoxy, so I am open to correction, but:

When, if ever, according to those who refuse to venerate St. Nicholas II, is a saint finally and definitively a saint? What good is it to have a Church that proclaims saints if we can all just ignore Her rulings?

[NicholasMyra]

This isn't like the RCC, where a saint is proclaimed by a universal magisterium after an investigation process. In the EO, sainthood is more informal and involves local synods of particular patriarchates or dioceses in some cases. It's more of a grassroots thing.

[OrthoNoob]

This isn't like the RCC, where a saint is proclaimed by a universal magisterium after an investigation process. In the EO, sainthood is more informal and involves local synods of particular patriarchates or dioceses in some cases. It's more of a grassroots thing.

OK. I get that it isn't the RCC. What is it? Is it ever definitive? If so, when?

Even saying "No/Never" would be an answer, as opposed to the above which really isn't.

[Michał Kalina]

He's only in the russian calendar anyways AFAIK. And I doubt he's gonna make it into another calendar.

You sure?

[Asteriktos]

I would say that if a Local Church glorifies a saint, then the people that are part of that Local Church should generally accept the glorification. People in other Local Churches are not obligated to do anything, though I think it would be good if they gave the matter some attention. A lot of times a Local Church will glorify someone, but the process of acceptance of that saint by the rest of the Church is less straightforward. Sometimes there will be a lot of support for a saint outside their Local Church, sometimes the saint will be almost entirely unknown outside it, etc.  Throw politics and whatnot into the mix and it gets even messier.

[Michał Kalina]

I'm yet to hear about rejection of a glorification made by another one local Church.

[genesisone]

If someone is a mass murderer, there should be evidence beyond reasonable doubt that he repented for it. That's my position. Maybe not so theologically elaborate, but I do they saints venerated by the church should be models for the faithful.

I'm pretty sure I can't answer this accusation without dragging this thread into politics, so...

@Genesisone

I think you and I largely agree.

To clarify: I'm not saying I think each and every Orthodox Christian must personally pray to or kiss the icon of each and every canonized saint. I'm not even saying you have to particularly like every saint. But there is something that rubs me the wrong way about obstinately holding the opinion that a saint is not in fact a saint and proclaiming that to the world.

I'm new to Orthodoxy, and so it's possible that I'm wrong, and if there's a council or a canon or a tradition or a precedent or something that allows the opposition to the veneration of canonized saints or defines the Church's power to canonize in a way that makes such opposition make sense, I'd like to see it.

Maybe I don't really know what "canonization" is in Orthodoxy, so I am open to correction, but:

When, if ever, according to those who refuse to venerate St. Nicholas II, is a saint finally and definitively a saint? What good is it to have a Church that proclaims saints if we can all just ignore Her rulings?

To comment on what I've emphasized: yes, you and I agree. I may disagree with the Church's declaration, but I still ought to respect it, even while expressing my lack of understanding for the reasoning behind the canonization. All of that is way above my pay grade. Since I'm not required to make a display of veneration, then I can simply pass by, just as I might treat someone in my parish whom I find offensive. (and no - I have no one at all in mind for that last statement!)

[Asteriktos]

I'm yet to hear about rejection of a glorification made by another one local Church.

Not an entire local Church, but I know a (retired) OCA bishop who rejects the glorification of St. John of Kronstadt. Or at least he did at one time.

[NicholasMyra]

Is it ever definitive? If so, when?

If you mean "infallible", I'd say never. I believe God loves us too much to take our humanity from us.

[Michał Kalina]

going back on the topic

[NicholasMyra]

Joins OC.net;

Rails against character limit in the 'Jurisdiction' field

[Rufus]

I'm yet to hear about rejection of a glorification made by another one local Church.

That's because glorification normally follows a persons popular acceptance as a saint, rather than preceding it. And how many glorifications can you name that were seriously controversial?

[William]

Gorazd, I'm neither a communist nor a monarchist simply because I like some aspects of Russian culture and believe in St. Nicholas.

[Michał Kalina]

That's because glorification normally follows a persons popular acceptance as a saint, rather than preceding it. And how many glorifications can you name that were seriously controversial?

Last Car's Family, Cyrill Lukaris, Theodore Ushakov - to name some recent ones.

[Rufus]

That's because glorification normally follows a persons popular acceptance as a saint, rather than preceding it. And how many glorifications can you name that were seriously controversial?

Last Car's Family, Cyrill Lukaris, Theodore Ushakov - to name some recent ones.

The fact that Theodore Ushakov is a saint is not going to encourage anyone to venerate the Czar.

[Rufus]

Hyperdox Herman:
-Has Icons of the Czar all over his prayer corner
-Will become a Catechumen soon

[yeshuaisiam]

I'm really starting to like Hyperdox Herman.

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