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Author Topic: North Carolina Diner Drops Praying in Public Discount after FFRF Threatened Law.  (Read 959 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2014, 03:35:47 PM »

Must of this is legal gray area which explains the frenzy of suits. In time, a broad court consensus will emerge. Political activist groups such as the Freedom from Religion Foundation exist to do their part to shape that eventual consensus. Much the same course is coming to an end in re "gay rights" law. Thomas Jefferson considered common law a greater tyrant than king or Parliament. Be that as it may, citizens tend to be strangely unaware of how it works.
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« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2014, 03:38:39 PM »

By the way, the legality is not a gray area in any sense that there was never a tradition or past consensus. I think there was a strong tradition up till the most modern times; however, a variety of legislation and rulings has cast that tradition into legal limbo, thus the gray area.
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« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2014, 03:40:03 PM »


(Case law has established a number of parameters to define what is not prohibited discrimination, for example charging a 'parishioner rate' for catering at a church run hall which is lower than the rate for the general public  is acceptable in that parishioners have an 'equity' stake in the catering hall as members and with membership comes certain privileges. So, I suppose that a church could run a chain of membership diners open to the public and for its members offer a discount. Private clubs may discriminate in membership criterea as well - although that is more and more 'unpopular' today - it is not illegal.)

In these situations, when I see an Orthodox cleric, I usually offer to pay for him (or pay for a nun when I see her).  This has been somewhat of a common practice at least in Coptic communities, although you will get the occasional overly insistent cleric that he can make due on his own.
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« Reply #48 on: August 13, 2014, 03:36:52 AM »

They are suing because the restaurant and schools have created situations where you can't get out of praying. No one has the right to force you to pray.

Then don't go to that restaurant. Their place, their rules. It's that simple.
I agree.
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« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2014, 10:39:53 AM »

They are suing because the restaurant and schools have created situations where you can't get out of praying. No one has the right to force you to pray.

Then don't go to that restaurant. Their place, their rules. It's that simple.
I agree.


Again, it is not that simple. Also the facts of this case do not fall into any "gray area"  as some posters imply.

The libertarian position takes issue conceptually with extending any legal protection to any class of citizens from private discrimination. That is a defensible, theoretical position to espouse. (I personally find the extreme Libertarian philosophy to be problematic, but that's a whole 'nother debate which I will not participate in online...see me for a craft beer some cold, long winter's night and we'll talk.) However, the libertarian position does not reflect the state of American, federal statutory law - nor is at all about the common law which was abolished in most stages post the American revolution at the end of the 18 th century. At play here is the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 which had repeatedly been upheld by successive Supreme Courts of varying ideological philosophies over the past half century . ( I'm not talking about state laws which may be more restrictive by including other classes to protect as in New York or California or less restrictive as in many Southern states. They are not relevant to this matter.)

Disagree with the law, try to get it changed if you desire, but it is the law in America and the diner owners were, in my legal estimation, violating it. Were they my clients back in the day, I'd have advised them to drop the practice and move on.

What may the owners do to reflect the exercise of their religious beliefs? Put upprayer posters and religious pictures on the wall, put icons up if you're Greek or an Arab Christian diner owner (check any classic diner in New Jersey or New York and more often than not there's icons by the cash register.) Put St. Anthony of Padua in your pizza parlor or Bhudda in your Won Ton establishment... Those are fine and signal your beliefs. Put a creche in your window at Christmas time. Put "Christian rock" or other religious music selections on your sound system even. (That would chase me out for sure ...) But don't give a discount to praying customers.



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« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2014, 10:56:51 AM »

Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.
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« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2014, 10:57:19 AM »

They are suing because the restaurant and schools have created situations where you can't get out of praying. No one has the right to force you to pray.

I don't think the patrons "had" to pray....nobody forced them.

I'm not sure I'd give a discount for praying, nor would I pray merely to get the discount....however, all these tiny little "offenses" that are being "stopped" are slowly going to erode away our freedoms.

As a business owner, the cafe should have the right to use whatever gimmick they want to attract patrons.  You have bars that offer discounts if you come in wearing "team colors", there's "lady's hour", wear a costume on Halloween, get a discount, etc.  Whatever.

Even if this had nothing to do with prayer....unless the "act" physically does harm to others, it ought to be allowed.  The people don't need to shop/eat there if they feel uncomfortable.  There are plenty of other locations offering gimmick free food and drink.

This is the start of Communism....and if we allow it to continue...we will not be allowed to pray even in our own homes.  God forbid what happened in Eastern Europe, happen in the States.  Seriously.  People were NOT allowed to pray behind closed and locked doors in their own homes.
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« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2014, 11:01:05 AM »

The libertarian position takes issue conceptually with extending any legal protection to any class of citizens from private discrimination. That is a defensible, theoretical position to espouse. (I personally find the extreme Libertarian philosophy to be problematic, but that's a whole 'nother debate which I will not participate in online...see me for a craft beer some cold, long winter's night and we'll talk.) However, the libertarian position does not reflect the state of American, federal statutory law - nor is at all about the common law which was abolished in most stages post the American revolution at the end of the 18 th century. At play here is the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 which had repeatedly been upheld by successive Supreme Courts of varying ideological philosophies over the past half century . ( I'm not talking about state laws which may be more restrictive by including other classes to protect as in New York or California or less restrictive as in many Southern states. They are not relevant to this matter.)

Disagree with the law, try to get it changed if you desire, but it is the law in America and the diner owners were, in my legal estimation, violating it. Were they my clients back in the day, I'd have advised them to drop the practice and move on.

What may the owners do to reflect the exercise of their religious beliefs? Put upprayer posters and religious pictures on the wall, put icons up if you're Greek or an Arab Christian diner owner (check any classic diner in New Jersey or New York and more often than not there's icons by the cash register.) Put St. Anthony of Padua in your pizza parlor or Bhudda in your Won Ton establishment... Those are fine and signal your beliefs. Put a creche in your window at Christmas time. Put "Christian rock" or other religious music selections on your sound system even. (That would chase me out for sure ...) But don't give a discount to praying customers.

I agree with you on all that. Legally it might be more complicated. You don't have to be religious to pray, or at least to pretend to. Nor would all religious people be comfortable with praying for a discount. Hence, it might not be religious discrimination.

As a business owner, the cafe should have the right to use whatever gimmick they want to attract patrons.  You have bars that offer discounts if you come in wearing "team colors", there's "lady's hour", wear a costume on Halloween, get a discount, etc.  Whatever.


Indeed. Especially the Ladies' Night is relevant, since that involves discrimination according to sex. But apparently that isn't federally banned.
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« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2014, 11:35:21 AM »

Does it matter at all that the shop owner does not discriminate based on the religious content of the prayer? (At least as indicated in the article of the OP.)

One could argue that the act if prayer isn't necessarily religious. Like the moments if silence we offer so frequently in 'memory' of victims of atrocities. Moreover, if the owner is giving discounts for Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Pagan, etc. prayer, then how is is anything here religious discrimination?


They are suing because the restaurant and schools have created situations where you can't get out of praying. No one has the right to force you to pray.

Then don't go to that restaurant. Their place, their rules. It's that simple.
I agree.


Again, it is not that simple. Also the facts of this case do not fall into any "gray area"  as some posters imply.

The libertarian position takes issue conceptually with extending any legal protection to any class of citizens from private discrimination. That is a defensible, theoretical position to espouse. (I personally find the extreme Libertarian philosophy to be problematic, but that's a whole 'nother debate which I will not participate in online...see me for a craft beer some cold, long winter's night and we'll talk.) However, the libertarian position does not reflect the state of American, federal statutory law - nor is at all about the common law which was abolished in most stages post the American revolution at the end of the 18 th century. At play here is the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 which had repeatedly been upheld by successive Supreme Courts of varying ideological philosophies over the past half century . ( I'm not talking about state laws which may be more restrictive by including other classes to protect as in New York or California or less restrictive as in many Southern states. They are not relevant to this matter.)

Disagree with the law, try to get it changed if you desire, but it is the law in America and the diner owners were, in my legal estimation, violating it. Were they my clients back in the day, I'd have advised them to drop the practice and move on.

What may the owners do to reflect the exercise of their religious beliefs? Put upprayer posters and religious pictures on the wall, put icons up if you're Greek or an Arab Christian diner owner (check any classic diner in New Jersey or New York and more often than not there's icons by the cash register.) Put St. Anthony of Padua in your pizza parlor or Bhudda in your Won Ton establishment... Those are fine and signal your beliefs. Put a creche in your window at Christmas time. Put "Christian rock" or other religious music selections on your sound system even. (That would chase me out for sure ...) But don't give a discount to praying customers.




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« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2014, 12:05:23 PM »

Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.
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« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2014, 12:13:36 PM »


Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

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« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2014, 01:36:41 PM »

Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

You are all missing the point. There is a bigger picture at play here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is not an "establisment" or First Amendmnt " free exercise" issue of law. When your town's subdivision regulations or a privateers landowners association board doesn't allow your parish to relocate, expand or create more parking on the pretense of a "religiously neutral" local ordinance or restrictive land covenant, or the town building office harrasses you about processions and bells,  please be sure to tell your attorney not to rely on Federal law or seek injunctive relief under Section 201. Good luck using "nuisance" laws or attempting to get around restrictive zoning regulations or covenents designed to "protect" residential land values without arguing religious discrimination.  Such local laws or private association rules are usually really intended to keep "them" out,  say the Sikhs, the Muslims , the Hindus or the "whatevers" out . Don't gripe if your little mission parish is just "collateral damage."
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« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2014, 01:48:30 PM »

Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

You are all missing the point. There is a bigger picture at play here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is not an "establisment" or First Amendmnt " free exercise" issue of law. When your town's subdivision regulations or a privateers landowners association board doesn't allow your parish to relocate, expand or create more parking on the pretense of a "religiously neutral" local ordinance or restrictive land covenant, or the town building office harrasses you about processions and bells,  please be sure to tell your attorney not to rely on Federal law or seek injunctive relief under Section 201. Good luck using "nuisance" laws or attempting to get around restrictive zoning regulations or covenents designed to "protect" residential land values without arguing religious discrimination.  Such local laws or private association rules are usually really intended to keep "them" out,  say the Sikhs, the Muslims , the Hindus or the "whatevers" out . Don't gripe if your little mission parish is just "collateral damage."

I think there is a noticible difference in the magnitude between "just move your entire church" and "why not just go to McDonalds instead of Jimbo's Grits Diner".  Just look at the costs.  Buying a new plot of land that might be much further away, then hiring and architect, hiring a general contractor, buying materials, etc compared to not getting a 10% discount.  If your burger, grits, and chitlins came to $10 you just spent and extra buck.  Whoopdie-friggin-doo!  If you are that broke PM me your address and I will send you a slightly wrinkled green back.  I'll even pay the $0.46 stamp. 

Local ordinances are the GOVERNMENT.  As a society we accept that they are very limited in their regulation of religion.  A business on the other hand is typically allowed to issue discounts for various reasons.  You have yet to explain what the difference is between offering a discount for praying, a discount for wearing a costume, a discount for buying 10 previous burger & grits combos, or for being a woman who will attract horny, drunken men to buy at your bar instead of Rashid's Rumpleminz Regency down the road. 
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« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2014, 03:42:51 PM »

Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

You are all missing the point.
Please don't include me in your "all"  Smiley. My point has nothing to do with rights or regulations. I'm uncomfortable with the possible urging of unbelievers to pretend to pray, thus making a mockery of genuine honest prayer. Prayer is just pretend anyway, isn't it?  Wink
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« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2014, 03:52:43 PM »

Do you get the discount if you pray to Kali?
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« Reply #60 on: August 13, 2014, 03:53:41 PM »

I pray you good sir, for my discount!  Wink
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« Reply #61 on: August 13, 2014, 05:21:07 PM »

Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

You are all missing the point. There is a bigger picture at play here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is not an "establisment" or First Amendmnt " free exercise" issue of law. When your town's subdivision regulations or a privateers landowners association board doesn't allow your parish to relocate, expand or create more parking on the pretense of a "religiously neutral" local ordinance or restrictive land covenant, or the town building office harrasses you about processions and bells,  please be sure to tell your attorney not to rely on Federal law or seek injunctive relief under Section 201. Good luck using "nuisance" laws or attempting to get around restrictive zoning regulations or covenents designed to "protect" residential land values without arguing religious discrimination.  Such local laws or private association rules are usually really intended to keep "them" out,  say the Sikhs, the Muslims , the Hindus or the "whatevers" out . Don't gripe if your little mission parish is just "collateral damage."

I think there is a noticible difference in the magnitude between "just move your entire church" and "why not just go to McDonalds instead of Jimbo's Grits Diner".  Just look at the costs.  Buying a new plot of land that might be much further away, then hiring and architect, hiring a general contractor, buying materials, etc compared to not getting a 10% discount.  If your burger, grits, and chitlins came to $10 you just spent and extra buck.  Whoopdie-friggin-doo!  If you are that broke PM me your address and I will send you a slightly wrinkled green back.  I'll even pay the $0.46 stamp. 

Local ordinances are the GOVERNMENT.  As a society we accept that they are very limited in their regulation of religion.  A business on the other hand is typically allowed to issue discounts for various reasons.  You have yet to explain what the difference is between offering a discount for praying, a discount for wearing a costume, a discount for buying 10 previous burger & grits combos, or for being a woman who will attract horny, drunken men to buy at your bar instead of Rashid's Rumpleminz Regency down the road. 

So from your point of view, a 'discount' for parties in the diner consisting of only white people or French expatriates or Christians is acceptable?

A 'discount' is simply another term for a reduced rate for the services being provided. There is no court in the United States and very few honest lawyers who would try to draw a discernable distinction. It's semantics.
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« Reply #62 on: August 13, 2014, 08:19:07 PM »

You seem to go back and forth, on one hand stating what the law is, and on the other hand, arguing what the law should be.

As I see it, this is an issue about contracting. Any law that violates our right to freely enter into contracts with each other is bad law (and a relatively recent innovation, to boot). And aside from our resident in-house attorney, who seems to think his opinion is "the way it is" and the rest of us are just gapped-tooth bozos, there are probably at least four Supreme Court justices that would agree with me.

This "aw shucks, it's just too bad, but that's the way the law is" attitude is why cake makers and photographers in Oregon and New Mexico have been forced to provide services to homosexual couples against their will. And as Liza has said, it will soon be the reason religion -- expressed privately in our own churches and homes -- will soon be under attack, if it isn't already.

Folks should quit playing Satan's paralegal and stand with Mary (the shop owner). She's on the right side in America's "War on Religion." And, as a bonus, she makes a mighty fine Reuben (tried one for lunch today).



Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

You are all missing the point. There is a bigger picture at play here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is not an "establisment" or First Amendmnt " free exercise" issue of law. When your town's subdivision regulations or a privateers landowners association board doesn't allow your parish to relocate, expand or create more parking on the pretense of a "religiously neutral" local ordinance or restrictive land covenant, or the town building office harrasses you about processions and bells,  please be sure to tell your attorney not to rely on Federal law or seek injunctive relief under Section 201. Good luck using "nuisance" laws or attempting to get around restrictive zoning regulations or covenents designed to "protect" residential land values without arguing religious discrimination.  Such local laws or private association rules are usually really intended to keep "them" out,  say the Sikhs, the Muslims , the Hindus or the "whatevers" out . Don't gripe if your little mission parish is just "collateral damage."

I think there is a noticible difference in the magnitude between "just move your entire church" and "why not just go to McDonalds instead of Jimbo's Grits Diner".  Just look at the costs.  Buying a new plot of land that might be much further away, then hiring and architect, hiring a general contractor, buying materials, etc compared to not getting a 10% discount.  If your burger, grits, and chitlins came to $10 you just spent and extra buck.  Whoopdie-friggin-doo!  If you are that broke PM me your address and I will send you a slightly wrinkled green back.  I'll even pay the $0.46 stamp.  

Local ordinances are the GOVERNMENT.  As a society we accept that they are very limited in their regulation of religion.  A business on the other hand is typically allowed to issue discounts for various reasons.  You have yet to explain what the difference is between offering a discount for praying, a discount for wearing a costume, a discount for buying 10 previous burger & grits combos, or for being a woman who will attract horny, drunken men to buy at your bar instead of Rashid's Rumpleminz Regency down the road.  

So from your point of view, a 'discount' for parties in the diner consisting of only white people or French expatriates or Christians is acceptable?

A 'discount' is simply another term for a reduced rate for the services being provided. There is no court in the United States and very few honest lawyers who would try to draw a discernable distinction. It's semantics.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 08:20:38 PM by Rambam » Logged
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« Reply #63 on: August 13, 2014, 10:45:25 PM »

You seem to go back and forth, on one hand stating what the law is, and on the other hand, arguing what the law should be.

As I see it, this is an issue about contracting. Any law that violates our right to freely enter into contracts with each other is bad law (and a relatively recent innovation, to boot). And aside from our resident in-house attorney, who seems to think his opinion is "the way it is" and the rest of us are just gapped-tooth bozos, there are probably at least four Supreme Court justices that would agree with me.

This "aw shucks, it's just too bad, but that's the way the law is" attitude is why cake makers and photographers in Oregon and New Mexico have been forced to provide services to homosexual couples against their will. And as Liza has said, it will soon be the reason religion -- expressed privately in our own churches and homes -- will soon be under attack, if it isn't already.

Folks should quit playing Satan's paralegal and stand with Mary (the shop owner). She's on the right side in America's "War on Religion." And, as a bonus, she makes a mighty fine Reuben (tried one for lunch today).



Here's what's bothering me about this matter: "Family and friends" discounts are not unusual. If the restaurant owner considers all pray-ers to be in that category, then fine. However, if this policy is public knowledge - as it apparently is - what's to prevent anyone at all from just bowing the head and closing the eyes pretending to pray? This weakens and cheapens the entire concept and may even verge on encouraging a violation of the Third Commandment.

Exactly.  What they are doing is in violation of the Gospels so they aren't promoting one religion over another (not that this is an offense - the Constitution only keeps the GOVERNMENT from establishing religion... which here they are prohibiting the practice of religion because who knows, perhaps in the owner's private sect praying in public for earthly benefit is encouraged?).  This is only an issue because certain demonically influenced groups want to see any public expression of Christianity or Christianesque religions squashed.  

Liza is the only one that I noticed that seems to be getting the point of all this.

You are all missing the point. There is a bigger picture at play here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This is not an "establisment" or First Amendmnt " free exercise" issue of law. When your town's subdivision regulations or a privateers landowners association board doesn't allow your parish to relocate, expand or create more parking on the pretense of a "religiously neutral" local ordinance or restrictive land covenant, or the town building office harrasses you about processions and bells,  please be sure to tell your attorney not to rely on Federal law or seek injunctive relief under Section 201. Good luck using "nuisance" laws or attempting to get around restrictive zoning regulations or covenents designed to "protect" residential land values without arguing religious discrimination.  Such local laws or private association rules are usually really intended to keep "them" out,  say the Sikhs, the Muslims , the Hindus or the "whatevers" out . Don't gripe if your little mission parish is just "collateral damage."

I think there is a noticible difference in the magnitude between "just move your entire church" and "why not just go to McDonalds instead of Jimbo's Grits Diner".  Just look at the costs.  Buying a new plot of land that might be much further away, then hiring and architect, hiring a general contractor, buying materials, etc compared to not getting a 10% discount.  If your burger, grits, and chitlins came to $10 you just spent and extra buck.  Whoopdie-friggin-doo!  If you are that broke PM me your address and I will send you a slightly wrinkled green back.  I'll even pay the $0.46 stamp.  

Local ordinances are the GOVERNMENT.  As a society we accept that they are very limited in their regulation of religion.  A business on the other hand is typically allowed to issue discounts for various reasons.  You have yet to explain what the difference is between offering a discount for praying, a discount for wearing a costume, a discount for buying 10 previous burger & grits combos, or for being a woman who will attract horny, drunken men to buy at your bar instead of Rashid's Rumpleminz Regency down the road.  

So from your point of view, a 'discount' for parties in the diner consisting of only white people or French expatriates or Christians is acceptable?

A 'discount' is simply another term for a reduced rate for the services being provided. There is no court in the United States and very few honest lawyers who would try to draw a discernable distinction. It's semantics.

Contracts in violation of public policy have always  unenforceable in the courts of the United States of America. There is nothing novel or new founded about that. Private parties are not vested with unlimited rights to contract for whatever they agree between themselves.

As I said there are many who do not believe the government possessed the authority to enact the 1964 act in the first instance. While at least two current justices of the American Supreme Court have expressed reservations about the scope of judicial expansion of protected classes under the act, none (perhaps excluding Scalia) have ever indicated that Heart of Atlanta was incorrectly decided in 1964.

Again I ask what I asked above, appeals to emotion aside, would you all support and defend a 'discount' in a diner applicable to only white people, brown people, Polynesian Islanders, French expatriates, Jews, Lutherans, Adventists or whatever?  If so -  why, and how is this not prohibited by the aforesaid law?

(I never said or implied that those who disagree with my analysis are "bozos" as Rambam said. I have tried to explain why the seemingly innocent "prayer discount" is impermissible under the facts presented under current (and long standing American law.) I do believe that one can still disagree without being disagreeable, but it seems that social media increasingly makes that a near impossibility.)
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« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2014, 11:16:06 PM »

Quote
Again I ask what I asked above, appeals to emotion aside, would you all support and defend a 'discount' in a diner applicable to only white people, brown people, Polynesian Islanders, French expatriates, Jews, Lutherans, Adventists or whatever?  If so -  why, and how is this not prohibited by the aforesaid law?

1) Yes.
2) People shouldn't be compelled to do business with folks they don't like, for whatever reason. Conversely, they should be allowed to offer incentives, such as discounts, to folks they do like. As a consumer, if I don't like their policy, I don't have to shop there.
3) Maybe it is against the law. But that's why we vote, make political contributions, and exercise free expression.  

"Contracts in violation of public policy. ..." Fair enough. But LBJ's been dead a long while, and maybe a 50 year old bill written to correct segregation doesn't make great public policy in 2014. (And people are vested with unlimited rights to contract -- the government has simply infringed on them.)

Look, in no way, shape, or form does it make sense to compel a Christian baker or photographer to provide services to homosexuals -- but that's just what happened in the last year or two. Holy moly: if you're a Christian entrepreneur, beware. Cross the wrong minority, and you could be subject to court-ordered brainwashing. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/jul/17/baker-appeal-order-re-educate-workers-gay-weddings/).

All under the aegis of 'civil rights' !

So I dunno why you've got to be so "well, that's just the way it is" about it. There's lots of bad law out there. Roe's the law of the land, too, but that doesn't mean we should be happy every time a baby gets chopped up.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 11:23:28 PM by Rambam » Logged
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