Author Topic: Why can't I believe?  (Read 4436 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #315 on: August 30, 2015, 04:49:51 PM »
No it really doesn't. You're begging the question on what "reality" is.

Science has many powerful and useful theories but those arent going to be helpful in religious or philosophical discussions.

Which is why religion and philosophy aren't needed.
So a better world through science?
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #316 on: August 30, 2015, 04:57:07 PM »
So a better world through science?

Precisely.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #317 on: August 30, 2015, 05:05:58 PM »
So a better world through science?

Precisely.
Which is laughable discourse, the irony being almost always destroying it.
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #318 on: August 30, 2015, 05:10:12 PM »
Which is laughable discourse, the irony being almost always destroying it.

Because clinging to the ancient writings of ancient Palestinian sheep herders has worked so well.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #319 on: August 30, 2015, 05:15:13 PM »
Which is laughable discourse, the irony being almost always destroying it.

Because clinging to the ancient writings of ancient Palestinian sheep herders has worked so well.
What do you mean by "worked so well"?

Of course I know you are implying we are living better now than before? But what you mean by " better " is precisely what's at stake.

Thanks to science, this world could vanish in a blink. But thanks to science I can get a root canal done pain free.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 05:17:01 PM by nothing »
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #320 on: August 30, 2015, 05:22:54 PM »
What do you mean by "worked so well"?

I don't seriously need to describe to you, in detail, what a blight your belief on things without evidence has been to our species, do I?

Quote
Of course I know you are implying we are living better now than before? But what you mean by " better " is precisely what's at stake.

I suppose so.  If you look at the progress of our species just since the time of modern science, that's what I mean by "better".
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 05:23:17 PM by MichaelofSN »
No longer trying to believe.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,105
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #321 on: August 30, 2015, 05:46:31 PM »
Because clinging to the ancient writings of ancient Palestinian sheep herders has worked so well.

Because old means stupid and herding also means stupid.

Good Shepherd = Good Stupid

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #322 on: August 30, 2015, 05:52:20 PM »
I don't seriously need to describe to you, in detail, what a blight your belief on things without evidence has been to our species, do I?
Oh? So should we discount the Cold War and the environmental destruction of life on this planet?

Science is working very "well" indeed, that is working well in destroying this earth. Modernization is doing what the Cold War didn't do, just a much slower pace. It's silly to deny industrialism as not being a part of science when the studies quite clearly show otherwise.

But again we have a fundamental disagreement on what science is.

Just so you are clear I am not against science, but only when attempts are made to establish it as the authoritative view in other domains.

And also you know nothing about my own beliefs either. But this scientism, and every other aspect of modernity you continue to push is truly the great tragedy of our century that gets repeated over and over as farce.

Quote
If you look at the progress of our species just since the time of modern science, that's what I mean by "better".
What do you mean by "progress"? Sure my own political stances are scientific and social progress, but we have to get clear first what is meant by that.
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #323 on: August 30, 2015, 05:56:41 PM »
Because clinging to the ancient writings of ancient Palestinian sheep herders has worked so well.

Because old means stupid and herding also means stupid.

Good Shepherd = Good Stupid
I just hope for Micahel's sake he doesn't think I am being nostalgic and wish to return to a more "simpler time". Anything against modernism is still a form of modernism.
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Online TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,315
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #324 on: August 30, 2015, 06:05:41 PM »
Science is a tool. It doesn't make a better world or a worse world. People do that. It is merely the discovery and practical application of the laws of our material world. You can't extrapolate meaning from science, you can't even say something is "better" or "worse" using science. Those are value judgments that are outside the scope of science. For purposes of scientific discovery, it is necessary to assume the non-intervention of any deity, but just because that assumption is made for the purposes of evaluating physical interactions, it doesn't mean that it does or even can make that proclamation in the sphere of "reality".
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #325 on: August 30, 2015, 06:17:02 PM »
Oh? So should we discount the Cold War and the environmental destruction of life on this planet?
Science is working very "well" indeed, that is working well in destroying this earth. Modernization is doing what the Cold War didn't do, just a much slower pace. It's silly to deny industrialism as not being a part of science when the studies quite clearly show otherwise.
But again we have a fundamental disagreement on what science is.

Certainly, if it weren't for scientific discovery things like the atom bomb and the industrial revolution would never have happened.  We were children running about in a glass house with a hammer.  Some argue that our species is still in our infancy because of our short sightedness.  I would agree.  But that does not mean that we cannot learn to use our scientific advances to fix the problems we have.  Scientific discovery has given us vaccinations, a way to help feed our increasing global population, perspectives larger than our own through the largest exchange of information we can account for (the internet) in human history, etc.

Assuming you are, an Orthodox Christian may not want to bring up the Cold War.  ...Just sayin'


Quote
Just so you are clear I am not against science, but only when attempts are made to establish it as the authoritative view in other domains.

I'm glad you stated this, because it's not always so easy to find those who support scientific advancement within the religious community.

Science deals with reality.  What domain outside of reality are you suggesting? 

Quote
And also you know nothing about my own beliefs either. But this scientism, and every other aspect of modernity you continue to push is truly the great tragedy of our century that gets repeated over and over as farce.

And you know nothing about mine, but you seem quite comfortable with calling my rationalism "narrow".

Quote
What do you mean by "progress"? Sure my own political stances are scientific and social progress, but we have to get clear first what is meant by that.

Maximizing happiness and health among our species, all while minimizing pain and suffering, so that each individual human being can enjoy their conscience maximally, learn as much as is possible, and contribute to the species in the best way they can.

I've shown you mine, now show me yours... what do you mean by "progress"?
No longer trying to believe.

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #326 on: August 30, 2015, 06:18:23 PM »
Science is a tool. It doesn't make a better world or a worse world. People do that. It is merely the discovery and practical application of the laws of our material world. You can't extrapolate meaning from science, you can't even say something is "better" or "worse" using science. Those are value judgments that are outside the scope of science. For purposes of scientific discovery, it is necessary to assume the non-intervention of any deity, but just because that assumption is made for the purposes of evaluating physical interactions, it doesn't mean that it does or even can make that proclamation in the sphere of "reality".
Sorry but I reject science as some "pure knowledge" that goes beyond ideology. That's why I brought up industrialism destroying the earth, it very much goes with science hand in hand.

Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century. For the good that modernity brings, such as good treatment of my oral cavity it also brings in the bad as well. It's just there is nothing we can do to stop it.

However we do agree that the necessary assumption scientists must take is methodological naturalism.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:19:34 PM by nothing »
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #327 on: August 30, 2015, 06:19:19 PM »
I just hope for Micahel's sake he doesn't think I am being nostalgic and wish to return to a more "simpler time". Anything against modernism is still a form of modernism.

No... but the desire to use that straw man made my mouth water a little bit and my horns grow a bit sharper...

...kidding.  If I use a straw man like that... call me out on it... because that would be fallacious.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #328 on: August 30, 2015, 06:22:27 PM »
Sorry but I reject science as some "pure knowledge" that goes beyond ideology. That's why I brought up industrialism destroying the earth, it very much goes with science hand in hand.

Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century. For the good that modernity brings, such as good treatment of my oral cavity it also brings in the bad as well. It's just there is nothing we can do to stop it.

This is patently absurd.  And you are being called out on it...

How has science cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people in the last century?  You made the claim.... now you must back it up.  Prove it.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #329 on: August 30, 2015, 06:25:35 PM »
Sorry but I reject science as some "pure knowledge" that goes beyond ideology. That's why I brought up industrialism destroying the earth, it very much goes with science hand in hand.

Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century. For the good that modernity brings, such as good treatment of my oral cavity it also brings in the bad as well. It's just there is nothing we can do to stop it.

This is patently absurd.  And you are being called out on it...

How has science cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people in the last century?  You made the claim.... now you must back it up.  Prove it.
Really? Do you need a history lesson of the 20th century?
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #330 on: August 30, 2015, 06:28:02 PM »
Sorry but I reject science as some "pure knowledge" that goes beyond ideology. That's why I brought up industrialism destroying the earth, it very much goes with science hand in hand.

Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century. For the good that modernity brings, such as good treatment of my oral cavity it also brings in the bad as well. It's just there is nothing we can do to stop it.

This is patently absurd.  And you are being called out on it...

How has science cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people in the last century?  You made the claim.... now you must back it up.  Prove it.
Really? Do you need a history lesson of the 20th century?

Yes.  I am stupid and don't understand.  I'll be needing you to back up your claim now.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:28:23 PM by MichaelofSN »
No longer trying to believe.

Offline biro

  • Elevator lady, levitate me
  • Site Supporter
  • Hoplitarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 17,702
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #331 on: August 30, 2015, 07:51:37 PM »
Scientists gave us the nuclear bomb.

Science isn't all cuddles and petunias, you know.

Online TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,315
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #332 on: August 30, 2015, 07:58:47 PM »
Science giveth and Science taketh away. Blessed be the name of Science.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #333 on: August 30, 2015, 08:00:26 PM »
 ;D
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #334 on: August 30, 2015, 08:12:34 PM »
Sorry but I reject science as some "pure knowledge" that goes beyond ideology. That's why I brought up industrialism destroying the earth, it very much goes with science hand in hand.

Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century. For the good that modernity brings, such as good treatment of my oral cavity it also brings in the bad as well. It's just there is nothing we can do to stop it.

This is patently absurd.  And you are being called out on it...

How has science cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people in the last century?  You made the claim.... now you must back it up.  Prove it.

...waiting
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:12:53 PM by MichaelofSN »
No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #335 on: August 30, 2015, 08:19:09 PM »
Science giveth and Science taketh away. Blessed be the name of Science.





Memes ... so useful.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #336 on: August 30, 2015, 08:20:21 PM »
Scientists gave us the nuclear bomb.

Science isn't all cuddles and petunias, you know.

You didn't read the thread... ...did you?
No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #337 on: August 30, 2015, 08:27:39 PM »
;D

Nothing, eh?

The claim:
Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century."

Proof...


;)
No longer trying to believe.

Online TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,315
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #338 on: August 30, 2015, 08:29:25 PM »
Science giveth and Science taketh away. Blessed be the name of Science.





Memes ... so useful.



P.S. I don't actually believe that science is good or bad. I just figured it would add some levity.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 08:30:43 PM by TheTrisagion »
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

Offline Incognito777

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 360
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #339 on: August 30, 2015, 08:35:16 PM »
MichaelofSN,

What precisely is it that you are doubting? I would not go to communion unless I believed.

If you doubt the resurrection of Christ, read "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Habermas and Licona, and "Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus," by Craig.

If you doubt the existence of God, read "On Guard," by Craig.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #340 on: August 30, 2015, 08:38:37 PM »


P.S. I don't actually believe that science is good or bad. I just figured it would add some levity.  ;D



I like how this conversation went from asking someone to provide proof for this claim to....

.... Orthodox Christians devolving into nonsequitur.  The irony is too much. 
No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #341 on: August 30, 2015, 08:42:12 PM »
MichaelofSN,

What precisely is it that you are doubting? I would not go to communion unless I believed.

If you doubt the resurrection of Christ, read "The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus," by Habermas and Licona, and "Assessing the New Testament Evidence for the Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus," by Craig.

If you doubt the existence of God, read "On Guard," by Craig.

Thank you for the book recommendations.  Most of what I know about Craig is from his debates.  I'll check them out.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline truthseeker32

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA-Denver
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #342 on: August 30, 2015, 08:54:36 PM »
Which is why religion and philosophy aren't needed.
That... right there... is a philosophical claim. Saying philosophy isn't needed is like saying language isn't needed. You can't even make the statement without utilizing what you claim is unnecessary. I am actually very disappointed by your reasonings (or lack thereof). Your statements are devolving into the old, worn out, atheist memes that demonstrate the ignorance and lack of critical thinking of the person using such memes.

And in response to your earlier question, given the illogical b.s. you are currently espousing, I don't think the best explanation in the world would do you any good. You seem incapable of discerning between a good argument and a poor one.

This will be my last word on the matter. I truly do wish you well, and I really do hope you see the errors in your current convictions someday.

Offline truthseeker32

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA-Denver
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #343 on: August 30, 2015, 08:58:11 PM »
Really? Do you need a history lesson of the 20th century?
This, though I would make the addendum that science, like any tool, has no moral qualities in and of itself. Whether it is used for moral or immoral ends is dependent on those utilizing it. Likewise, because science is merely a instrument for humanity's use, it is no more capable of informing us about morality than is a hammer or a screwdriver.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #344 on: August 30, 2015, 09:25:20 PM »
That... right there... is a philosophical claim. Saying philosophy isn't needed is like saying language isn't needed. You can't even make the statement without utilizing what you claim is unnecessary. I am actually very disappointed by your reasonings (or lack thereof). Your statements are devolving into the old, worn out, atheist memes that demonstrate the ignorance and lack of critical thinking of the person using such memes.

How convenient.  Someone arguing against my position uses memes, I respond using memes, you posit that the substance of my argument is... ...memes

I'll invite you to back through the thread and reread it.  Then when you have a point... bring it on back here so we can have a gander at it.

Quote
And in response to your earlier question, given the illogical b.s. you are currently espousing, I don't think the best explanation in the world would do you any good. You seem incapable of discerning between a good argument and a poor one.

/sigh/  Again... go reread the thread.  If a better argument can be presented, I haven't seen it.  Where my argument is fallacious, I'll admit error and revise it.  But you won't put in that sort of work, will you?

It's not that I think my argumentation is perfect.  It's that these arguments don't work... they aren't convincing.  Some of your "lay theologians" who have "amazing" expression of Orthodoxy elsewhere in this forum... don't seem to have arguments that hold weight.

Quote
This will be my last word on the matter. I truly do wish you well, and I really do hope you see the errors in your current convictions someday.

I genuinely hope that you are living an authentic human experience.  I also wish you well... whatever you believe well to be... I hope your experience in life meets those conditions.

Thanks for the kind words.  :)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 09:26:19 PM by MichaelofSN »
No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #345 on: August 30, 2015, 09:28:14 PM »
Science, like any tool, has no moral qualities in and of itself. Whether it is used for moral or immoral ends is dependent on those utilizing it. Likewise, because science is merely a instrument for humanity's use, it is no more capable of informing us about morality than is a hammer or a screwdriver.

An absolute... if one could be extracted from this thread.  Perfect, even.  Do I have your permission to quote you elsewhere, outside this forum?

No longer trying to believe.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #346 on: August 30, 2015, 09:31:22 PM »
No longer trying to believe.

Offline nothing

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 724
  • College kids ain't ****
  • Jurisdiction: Jornada del Muerto
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #347 on: August 30, 2015, 09:36:13 PM »
Sorry but I reject science as some "pure knowledge" that goes beyond ideology. That's why I brought up industrialism destroying the earth, it very much goes with science hand in hand.

Science has cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people the last century. For the good that modernity brings, such as good treatment of my oral cavity it also brings in the bad as well. It's just there is nothing we can do to stop it.

This is patently absurd.  And you are being called out on it...

How has science cooperated in the mass murder of tens of millions of people in the last century?  You made the claim.... now you must back it up.  Prove it.

...waiting
Actually what's demonstrable proof here is scientism's inability to inquire into itself, so thanks for that. You don't even understand the basics of science, so why should I bother explaining how science cooperated with all the other facets of modernity that led to the many sociological discontents of the 20th century which include the many genocides? So yes, it doesn't matter what proof I give you, it doesn't even approach the scope of the vast failure of Enlightment thought (including scientism) of the 20th century. This is why we should stop pretending to believe in something that we really don't and we know it too. While I'm on the topic, I also find incoherent and terribly convenient is this meme that whatever good happens like the Polio vaccine its because of "science" but whenever its something awful like a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima its because of "humans".

So until you can demonstrate some rigorous thought in this thread, I am not going to waste my time. I'm not trying to be rude, but it gets really old putting in effort into my posts where the other person on the discussion doesn't want to do any thinking.

All you've really done Michael, like pretty much all American former believers, is deny the existence of God and you hope to replace him with a better god that of a crude scientism, which maybe you will get what you really want, unlike how disappointed you were with an absent God.

You expect me to get you from point A to B when we really can't even start. And honestly I really don't want to expend the time doing so because I find it boring and frankly I have some other projects that are much more interesting to me and worthy of my time than this discussion. Again not trying to be smug, but I'm done. So I guess you can wait indefinitely.

Peace!
This is born alone die alone, so my dialogue's dastardly
Life's a tragedy generator operating at max capacity

“I’ve lived to bury my desires,
And see my dreams corrode with rust;
Now all that’s left are fruitless fires
That burn my empty heart to dust.”
― Alexander Pushkin

Offline truthseeker32

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA-Denver
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #348 on: August 30, 2015, 09:40:28 PM »
That... right there... is a philosophical claim. Saying philosophy isn't needed is like saying language isn't needed. You can't even make the statement without utilizing what you claim is unnecessary. I am actually very disappointed by your reasonings (or lack thereof). Your statements are devolving into the old, worn out, atheist memes that demonstrate the ignorance and lack of critical thinking of the person using such memes.

How convenient.  Someone arguing against my position uses memes, I respond using memes, you posit that the substance of my argument is... ...memes

I'll invite you to back through the thread and reread it.  Then when you have a point... bring it on back here so we can have a gander at it.

Quote
And in response to your earlier question, given the illogical b.s. you are currently espousing, I don't think the best explanation in the world would do you any good. You seem incapable of discerning between a good argument and a poor one.

/sigh/  Again... go reread the thread.  If a better argument can be presented, I haven't seen it.  Where my argument is fallacious, I'll admit error and revise it.  But you won't put in that sort of work, will you?

It's not that I think my argumentation is perfect.  It's that these arguments don't work... they aren't convincing.  Some of your "lay theologians" who have "amazing" expression of Orthodoxy elsewhere in this forum... don't seem to have arguments that hold weight.

Quote
This will be my last word on the matter. I truly do wish you well, and I really do hope you see the errors in your current convictions someday.

I genuinely hope that you are living an authentic human experience.  I also wish you well... whatever you believe well to be... I hope your experience in life meets those conditions.

Thanks for the kind words.  :)
Once again, you prove my point. Just because you aren't convinced by an argument doesn't mean it isn't good. That was the point of my last statement.

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #349 on: August 30, 2015, 09:59:15 PM »
Actually what's demonstrable proof here is scientism's inability to inquire into itself, so thanks for that.

Negative, Ghost rider.  It's demonstrable proof that one can't appeal to the rationality of people who are convinced that dead people walk, ascend "up" to heaven (a sort of "inconvenience" in a cosmos where no "up" exists), and can't demonstrate a heaven to begin with.

Quote
You don't even understand the basics of science, so why should I bother explaining...

How do you know this?  Do you know the extent of my scientific understanding?  If so, could you please demonstrate how my understanding of science is any less than yours?  And how that might be consequential to our discussion?

Quote
...how science cooperated with all the other facets of modernity that led to the many sociological discontents of the 20th century which include the many genocides?

Still claiming it... not demonstrating it?  I look forward to the part where you get around to demonstrating your claim... not just repeating it!  ;)

Quote
So yes, it doesn't matter what proof I give you...

Surely... it does.  You're just not open the opposite because you're personally, emotionally invested in "being right".  Does this argument sound familiar yet?  Baseless.  Utterly baseless assumption.

Quote
...it doesn't even approach the scope of the vast failure of Enlightment thought (including scientism) of the 20th century.

So we're stating our claim again... without providing proof.  Wait for it!

Quote
This is why we should stop pretending to believe in something that we really don't and we know it too.

My point exactly!  Stop pretending to believe, nothing... in nothing.

Quote
While I'm on the topic, I also find incoherent and terribly convenient is this meme that whatever good happens like the Polio vaccine its because of "science" but whenever its something awful like a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima its because of "humans".

And using your logic (you're welcome)... I also find it incoherent and terribly convenient that when something good happens, you credit your god... but whenever it's something awful like a tsunami in Indonesia... it's .... not god.

Quote
So until you can demonstrate some rigorous thought in this thread, I am not going to waste my time.

Giving up so soon?  :(  But we were just getting around to the important stuff!

Quote
I'm not trying to be rude, but it gets really old putting in effort into my posts where the other person on the discussion doesn't want to do any thinking.

Brother... let me tell you.  You and I are on the same sheet of music here.

Quote
All you've really done Michael, like pretty much all American former believers, is deny the existence of God and you hope to replace him with a better god that of a crude scientism, which maybe you will get what you really want, unlike how disappointed you were with an absent God.

Argumentum ad passiones much?  Is there a point here?  You're assuming an awful lot about my person in light of you not being able to defend your argument (I was really hoping you had one).  ...wait for it!

Quote
You expect me to get you from point A to B when we really can't even start.

Wait for it! ...

Quote
And honestly I really don't want to expend the time doing so because I find it boring and frankly I have some other projects that are much more interesting to me and worthy of my time than this discussion. Again not trying to be smug, but I'm done. So I guess you can wait indefinitely.

Oh... thank you, Sir... I will sign for that package!  And... done.  Perhaps in the same way members of this forum see other members as "having great expressions of Orthodoxy"... they will also see your inability to demonstrate claims... not of the metaphysical... or even the transcendental... but historical!

Quote
Peace!

This is the part where I invite you to use your critical faculties to discern whether or not the positions you hold within your set of beliefs are true.

...but I suppose your emotional investment will keep you from doing so.  And for that reason...

... I also hope you find peace.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 10:23:09 PM by MichaelofSN »
No longer trying to believe.

Offline truthseeker32

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 475
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOA-Denver
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #350 on: August 30, 2015, 10:06:22 PM »
The conversation had become vapid. I recommend that nobody else indulge the OP any further. Your time would be better spent attempting to win the lottery.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 10:13:56 PM by truthseeker32 »

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #351 on: August 30, 2015, 10:09:31 PM »
The conversation had become vapid. I recommend that nobody else indulge the OP any further. Your time would be better spent attempting to win the lotter.

Rich, indeed.
No longer trying to believe.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,105
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #352 on: August 30, 2015, 10:35:19 PM »
If I'm allowed to jump in and say anything here, I'd like to make the statement that argumentation only goes so far with certain types of issues. I feel like religion is one of those things that really just boils down to whether or not you buy it at the end of the day. I know that there are plenty of reason to argue against even my own belief system and to reject it, but I think that at the end of the day it's really as simple as - "Nah, I call B.S. There's no way that happened. This is all just a way to control people."

I get that. I'm not saying anyone has even argued that here. But there's just a drop off point where we all go with our gut.

Best of luck, Michael. If you still want to chat on the phone, I'm down!

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #353 on: August 30, 2015, 11:18:25 PM »
If I'm allowed to jump in and say anything here, I'd like to make the statement that argumentation only goes so far with certain types of issues. I feel like religion is one of those things that really just boils down to whether or not you buy it at the end of the day. I know that there are plenty of reason to argue against even my own belief system and to reject it, but I think that at the end of the day it's really as simple as - "Nah, I call B.S. There's no way that happened. This is all just a way to control people."

I get that. I'm not saying anyone has even argued that here. But there's just a drop off point where we all go with our gut.

Best of luck, Michael. If you still want to chat on the phone, I'm down!

I hope they will.  I enjoy sharing drinks and tobacco zipcodes away with someone who challenges my beliefs.  If nothing more than for finding commonality.
No longer trying to believe.

Online TheTrisagion

  • The cat is back and its better than ever!
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,315
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #354 on: August 31, 2015, 08:40:35 AM »

I like how this conversation went from asking someone to provide proof for this claim to....

.... Orthodox Christians devolving into nonsequitur.  The irony is too much.
You did read my P.S. right? It was not my intent to mock your beliefs. I was just trying to add some humor. I apologize if it was taken the wrong way.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. - Hanlon's Razor

Offline MichaelofSN

  • What is even happening right now?
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Why can't I believe?
« Reply #355 on: August 31, 2015, 03:24:15 PM »
You did read my P.S. right? It was not my intent to mock your beliefs. I was just trying to add some humor. I apologize if it was taken the wrong way.

Brah, no worries.  ...srs
No longer trying to believe.