Author Topic: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement  (Read 603 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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you may say they can go to hell and then live again so you mean reincarnation? apart from the problems it presents then christ would have to be crucified again as in 1 verse before in hebrews 9:26
because He has to die for the sins of that life also which may mean sinning eternally
because God's justice demands punishment on the guilty or a replacement innocent person sufficient to cover such sins
even a sinless person however would not be able to take the depth of the punishment and one would have to not sin while being punished which only God can do because only God is holy and has absolute perfection
I have heard that christs suffering was unlimited does this mean He suffered eternally for us or that because He is God it is unlimited because I dont believe He is able to cover for eternal sinning
only those who wait for Him will He appear a second time for salvation
He wont come a third time after they are in hell or unless only maybe they are redeemed but not perfectly
we can not pay for our own sin in hell as it is an infinite offense when it is directed to God that only God can pay but not too high as eternal sinning which even God can't pay
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 08:37:20 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2015, 08:43:50 AM »
I apologise if I cause unwarranted grief

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2015, 08:47:55 AM »
It is exceedingly odd that you say these views on an Orthodox forum. It is as if you have not learned anything from participating on OC.Net. Perhaps, you do not care to learn anything rew?

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2015, 08:55:26 AM »
Why don't you reply to what is wrong about it then criticise me
I do not dismiss the possibility of a purgatory for some of those in christ
And I am not unaware that some people did not get their full chance here like babies unbaptised and people who die suddenly without repenting but they would have if they were given longer life

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 09:45:16 AM »
.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 09:49:32 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2015, 09:52:05 AM »
I have spotted a problem in my original post
Gods atonement may be offered for many lives of sinning as long as it is not eternal
But He offered it once for all
When it says once to die and afterwards the judgement it may mean judgement will follow every life
But that does not seem likely and why preach something which carries risk ?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 09:53:17 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 10:06:51 AM »
I meant to post this thread in religious topics free for all
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 10:07:13 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 10:32:47 AM »
I have spotted a problem in my original post
Gods atonement may be offered for many lives of sinning as long as it is not eternal
But He offered it once for all
When it says once to die and afterwards the judgement it may mean judgement will follow every life
But that does not seem likely and why preach something which carries risk ?

Such is not true I stand with my original post

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2015, 07:03:51 PM »
Why don't you reply to what is wrong about it then criticise me
I do not dismiss the possibility of a purgatory for some of those in christ
And I am not unaware that some people did not get their full chance here like babies unbaptised and people who die suddenly without repenting but they would have if they were given longer life

Please read some books on the Orthodox approach to grace and salvation. These books and articles would be a great start.

How Are We Saved?: The Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition by Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware)

The Orthodox Understanding of Salvation: "Theosis" in Scripture and Tradition by Christopher Veniamin

What the ORTHODOX BELIEVE Concerning prayer for the dead by Father David Moser at http://www.orthodox.net/articles/about-prayer-for-the-dead.html

Why Pray For the Dead? is an article that extensively quotes Elder Cleopa. You can access it at http://orthodoxwayoflife.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-pray-to-dead.html

Offline Jude1:3

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2015, 09:01:09 PM »
 Mike the only thing I would suggest is using periods in your sentences so it's easier to understand your posts.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2015, 06:53:53 AM »
I will get those books when I have money with shipping from amazon in total those 2 books cost $94.14 AUD

Thanks Jude I will try to

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2015, 07:00:41 AM »
Reincarnation does not work because even if you live good in the next life how have you repented of the previous life. If you have knowledge of the previous life it stops free will. And if you have many lives which reflects your true person? I think that is what is meant when it says God hardens ones heart it means not believe because one can not deny it. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.Without faith it is impossible to please God. Faith is not stupid though it is valid to believe we existed due to something rather than nothing.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 07:01:30 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2015, 07:16:21 AM »
Why don't you reply to what is wrong about it then criticise me
I do not dismiss the possibility of a purgatory for some of those in christ
And I am not unaware that some people did not get their full chance here like babies unbaptised and people who die suddenly without repenting but they would have if they were given longer life

Those people I mentioned who die suddenly some of them may be innocent in a sense in that they were not treated well in life (this might include being preached a false gospel but maybe not) and never were presented the gospel with love enough or at all but some of them rejected God and knew better and did not take His warning seriously that today is the day of salvation

Romans 11:33-34 (NKJV)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”[a]

in the verses preceding we see that God's plan is to have mercy on all but that was through His Son
To have mercy on as many as God has given Him
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 07:38:10 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2015, 08:22:32 AM »
Proverbs 16:6(NKJV)
6 In mercy and truth
Atonement is provided for iniquity;
And by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2015, 08:34:25 AM »
Mike, the object of discussion is to actually engage others in a discussion, to listen to what they have to say. How do you expect to accomplish that by submitting seven posts in a row when only a few of us are responding?

You're also spouting an understanding of atonement that on the surface resembles Anselm more closely than it does anything Orthodox. Where are you getting that teaching? From the Protestants you're trying so hard to convert?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 08:39:08 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2015, 08:43:01 AM »
Mike, the object of discussion is to actually engage others in a discussion, to listen to what they have to say. How do you expect to accomplish that by submitting seven posts in a row when only a few of us are responding?

You're also spouting an understanding of atonement that on the surface resembles Anselm more closely than it does anything Orthodox. Where are you getting that teaching? From the Protestants you're trying so hard to convert?

For one thing, Mike lives in a time zone which at the moment coincides with the time much of the OCnet membership is asleep or getting ready for the day.

And go easy on him. You of all people should have some understanding of why he posts as he does.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2015, 08:51:09 AM »
Thanks LBK :)

Offline LBK

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 08:52:14 AM »
No problem, Mike.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2015, 08:52:58 AM »
Mike, the object of discussion is to actually engage others in a discussion, to listen to what they have to say. How do you expect to accomplish that by submitting seven posts in a row when only a few of us are responding?

You're also spouting an understanding of atonement that on the surface resembles Anselm more closely than it does anything Orthodox. Where are you getting that teaching? From the Protestants you're trying so hard to convert?

If I don't post now I will never address an important issue
I will discuss later when I have money to buy the 2 books
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 08:57:14 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2015, 08:57:26 AM »
Mike, the object of discussion is to actually engage others in a discussion, to listen to what they have to say. How do you expect to accomplish that by submitting seven posts in a row when only a few of us are responding?

You're also spouting an understanding of atonement that on the surface resembles Anselm more closely than it does anything Orthodox. Where are you getting that teaching? From the Protestants you're trying so hard to convert?

I do not try to convert protestants we are not born of men's will but of God I simply try to talk about bible verses and let the Holy Spirit Draw them to the truth
But it seems as if you're picking up teachings from them that are corrupting your view of salvation.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2015, 08:58:40 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2015, 09:03:16 AM »
Yes I only got that verse from proverbs from them from the jesus is savior website which I went to get rid of the idea of posting bill wiese on my Facebook from 23 minutes in hell and that site gives me a balanced view of him

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2015, 11:27:22 AM »
I will get those books when I have money with shipping from amazon in total those 2 books cost $94.14 AUD

Thanks Jude I will try to

I am sorry to hear about the book situation. If you send me your address, I will see what I can do to help. However, there are many resources on he Internet that you should be able to access; in addition to the ones I had already cited above, here are some others:

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/how-are-we-saved

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46463.htm

https://oca.org/reflections/fr.-john-breck/salvation-is-indeed-by-grace

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_2.htm#n2

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/stevethebuilder/love_wins_an_orthodox_view_of_salvation

Father Hopko's excellent introduction to Orthodox Christianity is also available on the Internet but the format is somewhat inconvenient. It is well worth checking out:

http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: for it is appointed for men once to die and after that the judgement
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2015, 08:36:21 AM »
Thanks I will look at those links :) I may be getting paid soon and will buy those books
I hope it contains a more detailed explanation than those books