Author Topic: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.  (Read 2533 times)

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #180 on: January 04, 2015, 01:02:19 AM »
Yesh, there were millions of folks of your parents' generation that went thru what you're going thru. The reaction to the Sixties and the accompanying paranoia were a huge cultural phenomenon you should study. Unfortunately, those who committed to courses too rash caused only themselves and their children to suffer. Fortunately, most of their children grew up and don't see things their parents' way. The world is still standing, bad as it may be, and the Church is still prevailing. There's still a God in the sky, and men are still designed to be brothers. If you're not willing to learn from this yourself, at least stop trying to convert others. No answer to life can be found in aggressive individualism and paranoia.


There are lines in the sand for some people.  Mine would exist on many FICTIONAL literary works.

A book about WWII is fine.  An autobiography, even of Adolph Hitler is fine.

Romeo & Juliet, not so fine.   Because it's fictional designed to entertain through a story promoting sinful natures as entertaining.  



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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #181 on: January 04, 2015, 01:04:21 AM »

Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.
You don't think that those number differences might have something to do with Catholic countries invading and proselytizing the world for most of history while the Orthodox were struggling to survive against a Muslim onslaught? 

From an EO standpoint, the numbers are not good enough.  None of them are from a Christian standpoint.  Check Hinduism.  It actually makes me sad.

You know, I disagree with some EO practices, but ANY day of the week I'd love to see a non-Christian become and Eastern Orthodox Christian.   It DOES make me sad to see the numbers of young adults leave any Christian church.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #182 on: January 04, 2015, 01:04:32 AM »

Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.
You don't think that those number differences might have something to do with Catholic countries invading and proselytizing the world for most of history while the Orthodox were struggling to survive against a Muslim onslaught? 

We can also simply guess at retention rates.  We all know how good statisticians are at counting.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #183 on: January 04, 2015, 01:06:24 AM »
Yesh, there were millions of folks of your parents' generation that went thru what you're going thru. The reaction to the Sixties and the accompanying paranoia were a huge cultural phenomenon you should study. Unfortunately, those who committed to courses too rash caused only themselves and their children to suffer. Fortunately, most of their children grew up and don't see things their parents' way. The world is still standing, bad as it may be, and the Church is still prevailing. There's still a God in the sky, and men are still designed to be brothers. If you're not willing to learn from this yourself, at least stop trying to convert others. No answer to life can be found in aggressive individualism and paranoia.


There are lines in the sand for some people.  Mine would exist on many FICTIONAL literary works.

A book about WWII is fine.  An autobiography, even of Adolph Hitler is fine.

Romeo & Juliet, not so fine.   Because it's fictional designed to entertain through a story promoting sinful natures as entertaining.  
So fielding possible questions on family relationships/feuds is harder than those on why the Holocaust happened?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #184 on: January 04, 2015, 01:08:30 AM »
Yesh, there were millions of folks of your parents' generation that went thru what you're going thru. The reaction to the Sixties and the accompanying paranoia were a huge cultural phenomenon you should study. Unfortunately, those who committed to courses too rash caused only themselves and their children to suffer. Fortunately, most of their children grew up and don't see things their parents' way. The world is still standing, bad as it may be, and the Church is still prevailing. There's still a God in the sky, and men are still designed to be brothers. If you're not willing to learn from this yourself, at least stop trying to convert others. No answer to life can be found in aggressive individualism and paranoia.

There are lines in the sand for some people.  Mine would exist on many FICTIONAL literary works.

A book about WWII is fine.  An autobiography, even of Adolph Hitler is fine.

Romeo & Juliet, not so fine.   Because it's fictional designed to entertain through a story promoting sinful natures as entertaining.  

It looks like you accidentally quoted my post.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #185 on: January 04, 2015, 01:09:53 AM »
Romeo & Juliet, not so fine.   Because it's fictional designed to entertain through a story promoting sinful natures as entertaining.  

O, yeshuaisiam, yeshuaisiam, wherefore art thou yeshuaisiam?  Does thou tireth of repeatedly making the same arguments on this forum?

Interpretation can be found here:
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 01:12:19 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #186 on: January 04, 2015, 01:10:46 AM »

Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.
You don't think that those number differences might have something to do with Catholic countries invading and proselytizing the world for most of history while the Orthodox were struggling to survive against a Muslim onslaught? 

From an EO standpoint, the numbers are not good enough.  None of them are from a Christian standpoint.  Check Hinduism.  It actually makes me sad.

You know, I disagree with some EO practices, but ANY day of the week I'd love to see a non-Christian become and Eastern Orthodox Christian.   It DOES make me sad to see the numbers of young adults leave any Christian church.
One thing you will notice there is that the top retention are from deeply ethnic religions. That is certainly a major reason for retention. At the same time, we have to recognize that everyone eventually has to make their faith their own instead of just their parents religion. Christ and the Church has never been under any illusion that we are going to have a 100% retention.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #187 on: January 04, 2015, 01:25:39 AM »
I agree with you completely.  People are people.  Families are families.  Messed up situations happen in any environment public or otherwise.  In our circles, homeschoolers often turn out very well and in colleges.  It's about the parents, the education setup, the dedication, the groups they are in, and connections they make.

Here's where you're wrong. You've been admirably transparent on the forum that you participate in a specific subculture (one that's being well-documented by researchers such as those represented in some of my links). As such, you can't honestly claim the successes of a nebulous "homeschooling" without tying those statistics to your own subset of methods and milieu.

Some of those "well-documented" links are from people that had bad experiences.

Porter you understand you are not looking at the glass 7/8ths full.  Google will spit out what you look for.
The actual EXPERIENCE is much different or us.

Have you even looked into the dominance of Homeschoolers at venues like spelling bees?  Have you searched for public school vs homeschool and looked at test stats?

Homeschoolers do very well in those stats.

It just upsets me Porter that I put all this effort in and am involved in fantastic groups, have watched children mature into adults and go to college and sit here and listen to you rip on it.

I don't think you understand just how HUGE homeschooling is.   1 simple video of a graduation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrUej9x8iNQ

Homeschooling is very established and has huge groups all through America.


Quivering? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIwwiYt74JI

I just ask you not to be biased.  There are great groups and homeschoolers.

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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #188 on: January 04, 2015, 01:26:33 AM »
Yesh, there were millions of folks of your parents' generation that went thru what you're going thru. The reaction to the Sixties and the accompanying paranoia were a huge cultural phenomenon you should study. Unfortunately, those who committed to courses too rash caused only themselves and their children to suffer. Fortunately, most of their children grew up and don't see things their parents' way. The world is still standing, bad as it may be, and the Church is still prevailing. There's still a God in the sky, and men are still designed to be brothers. If you're not willing to learn from this yourself, at least stop trying to convert others. No answer to life can be found in aggressive individualism and paranoia.

There are lines in the sand for some people.  Mine would exist on many FICTIONAL literary works.

A book about WWII is fine.  An autobiography, even of Adolph Hitler is fine.

Romeo & Juliet, not so fine.   Because it's fictional designed to entertain through a story promoting sinful natures as entertaining.  

It looks like you accidentally quoted my post.
oops.  Going between this and a database backup.  ;)
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #189 on: January 04, 2015, 01:32:51 AM »

Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.
You don't think that those number differences might have something to do with Catholic countries invading and proselytizing the world for most of history while the Orthodox were struggling to survive against a Muslim onslaught? 

From an EO standpoint, the numbers are not good enough.  None of them are from a Christian standpoint.  Check Hinduism.  It actually makes me sad.

You know, I disagree with some EO practices, but ANY day of the week I'd love to see a non-Christian become and Eastern Orthodox Christian.   It DOES make me sad to see the numbers of young adults leave any Christian church.
One thing you will notice there is that the top retention are from deeply ethnic religions. That is certainly a major reason for retention. At the same time, we have to recognize that everyone eventually has to make their faith their own instead of just their parents religion. Christ and the Church has never been under any illusion that we are going to have a 100% retention.

I agree.   I do believe that homeschooling parents *are* closer to their children.  We obviously spend a lot of time with our children.    I've seen a lot of the children stay within the church of their parents, or a flavor therof.  It's not perfect though.  But there is a minor amount of teens falling into worldly trends, getting involved with drugs, and having pre-marital sex.   Been with one group over a decade now, and the other for several years.

Anyway...
Man that graph depressed me.  Hiduism - heavier rate than any Christian faith...   :'(
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Online xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #190 on: January 04, 2015, 01:34:50 AM »
According to this study, it actually appears that they have the highest retention rate of any Christian faith community.



Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.

Do you know what history is? Catholicism has had more chances on the imperial end of the spectrum. When you have imperial power, you have predominance. The RC Church has had that power for a longer span of time and far more often than the Orthodox have.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #191 on: January 04, 2015, 01:37:06 AM »

Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.
You don't think that those number differences might have something to do with Catholic countries invading and proselytizing the world for most of history while the Orthodox were struggling to survive against a Muslim onslaught? 

From an EO standpoint, the numbers are not good enough.  None of them are from a Christian standpoint.  Check Hinduism.  It actually makes me sad.

You know, I disagree with some EO practices, but ANY day of the week I'd love to see a non-Christian become and Eastern Orthodox Christian.   It DOES make me sad to see the numbers of young adults leave any Christian church.
One thing you will notice there is that the top retention are from deeply ethnic religions. That is certainly a major reason for retention. At the same time, we have to recognize that everyone eventually has to make their faith their own instead of just their parents religion. Christ and the Church has never been under any illusion that we are going to have a 100% retention.

I agree.   I do believe that homeschooling parents *are* closer to their children.  We obviously spend a lot of time with our children.    I've seen a lot of the children stay within the church of their parents, or a flavor therof.  It's not perfect though.  But there is a minor amount of teens falling into worldly trends, getting involved with drugs, and having pre-marital sex.   Been with one group over a decade now, and the other for several years.

Anyway...
Man that graph depressed me.  Hiduism - heavier rate than any Christian faith...   :'(

Rejoice and be glad, Yesh.  Thousands are being saved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonite_Church_in_India
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #192 on: January 04, 2015, 01:43:15 AM »
So fielding possible questions on family relationships/feuds is harder than those on why the Holocaust happened?

"harder" would not be the word to use.

"Reality of History" would be better.

Fictional stories written for entertainment purposes loaded with sin, does not make sense to me. The purpose is one to attach emotionally to the characters as they develop in the story, while supporting, justifying, sympathizing, with sin.  A sin loaded fiction.

The Holocaust is a reality of humanity and a historical fact.  I believe a child should learn of the history of this event as it is a reality of our world.    Necromancy in King Arthur stories (for a small example) "used for good" paints an illusion against biblical principles.    There is no point to those stories, except entertainment.  Necromancy is absolutely condemned in our scriptures.  Fictional representations to be entertained with seems like not only a waste of time, but the enjoyment of fantasized power of witchcraft.

The same could apply to Harry Potter.   How many toys are sold because of this movie?    Ask yourself honestly, would you rather watch your children with a couch load of stuffed animals playing Noah's Ark, or pretending to place a Hex curse in a magic circle on their brother?

The eyes are the lamp of the body.    What we bring in obviously influences us and matters.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #193 on: January 04, 2015, 01:45:35 AM »

Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.
You don't think that those number differences might have something to do with Catholic countries invading and proselytizing the world for most of history while the Orthodox were struggling to survive against a Muslim onslaught? 

From an EO standpoint, the numbers are not good enough.  None of them are from a Christian standpoint.  Check Hinduism.  It actually makes me sad.

You know, I disagree with some EO practices, but ANY day of the week I'd love to see a non-Christian become and Eastern Orthodox Christian.   It DOES make me sad to see the numbers of young adults leave any Christian church.
One thing you will notice there is that the top retention are from deeply ethnic religions. That is certainly a major reason for retention. At the same time, we have to recognize that everyone eventually has to make their faith their own instead of just their parents religion. Christ and the Church has never been under any illusion that we are going to have a 100% retention.

I agree.   I do believe that homeschooling parents *are* closer to their children.  We obviously spend a lot of time with our children.    I've seen a lot of the children stay within the church of their parents, or a flavor therof.  It's not perfect though.  But there is a minor amount of teens falling into worldly trends, getting involved with drugs, and having pre-marital sex.   Been with one group over a decade now, and the other for several years.

Anyway...
Man that graph depressed me.  Hiduism - heavier rate than any Christian faith...   :'(

Rejoice and be glad, Yesh.  Thousands are being saved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonite_Church_in_India

We all should be.  Seriously.  I hope you were not being sarcastic.  I hope they convert the entire country to follow Jesus.   I know it's not EO, but seriously, it sure beats kali (and the BIG rest LOL). 
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #194 on: January 04, 2015, 01:49:50 AM »
According to this study, it actually appears that they have the highest retention rate of any Christian faith community.



Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.

Do you know what history is? Catholicism has had more chances on the imperial end of the spectrum. When you have imperial power, you have predominance. The RC Church has had that power for a longer span of time and far more often than the Orthodox have.
That's 5% spread.  Do the math over 2k years...... well... let's be fair, the G. Schism.  Still though, 1k years, if that 5% was that way through history.

Look, I'm just glad there is some retention.   But as an EO Christian, you know that anybody leaving the church and losing 1 is bad.

The Hiduism thing I had no idea on.  That's really bad.

I've worked with Hindus to bring them to Christ.  (in a simple way folks).   There is a reason they are so tough to convert.  They even believe in Jesus!  But he's just another deity.   
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #195 on: January 04, 2015, 01:52:26 AM »
According to this study, it actually appears that they have the highest retention rate of any Christian faith community.



Yes I can tell.  That's why EO has 250-300 million worldwide and RC has 1.2 billion.  You'd think after 2k years, the numbers would have been shifted with that percent spread.

Also, it doesn't state the retention of protestants that generally church hop.  There isn't a HUGE leap from a Methodist to a Lutheran.

Do you know what history is? Catholicism has had more chances on the imperial end of the spectrum. When you have imperial power, you have predominance. The RC Church has had that power for a longer span of time and far more often than the Orthodox have.
That's 5% spread.  Do the math over 2k years...... well... let's be fair, the G. Schism.  Still though, 1k years, if that 5% was that way through history.

Look, I'm just glad there is some retention.   But as an EO Christian, you know that anybody leaving the church and losing 1 is bad.

The Hiduism thing I had no idea on.  That's really bad.

I've worked with Hindus to bring them to Christ.  (in a simple way folks).   There is a reason they are so tough to convert.  They even believe in Jesus!  But he's just another deity.   

Conversion rates are not constant. People didn't convert to Judaism in Western Europe during the Middle Ages. Now, Judaism has one of the faster conversion rates in the world.

History determines the rate of conversion, it's not a constant number... Also, people are not zombies. Everyone has an individualistic reason behind why the remain or why they leave.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 01:58:10 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #196 on: January 04, 2015, 03:09:26 AM »
That's 5% spread.  Do the math over 2k years...... well... let's be fair, the G. Schism.  Still though, 1k years, if that 5% was that way through history.

Look, I'm just glad there is some retention.   But as an EO Christian, you know that anybody leaving the church and losing 1 is bad.

The Hiduism thing I had no idea on.  That's really bad.

I've worked with Hindus to bring them to Christ.  (in a simple way folks).   There is a reason they are so tough to convert.  They even believe in Jesus!  But he's just another deity.   

Hinduism is so diverse that it can accommodate even Atheism itself. The second thing is that Hindi Philosophy is complex just as with its sister religion, Buddhism.

Protestant theology is to my opinion inadequate when placed side by side with that of the Hindus and Buddhists. If I'm an informed Buddhist or Hindu, being Evangelized by some Protestant Missionaries, I would have rebutted them in debate, just like how the Buddhists did in Sri Lanka. Given this flexibility plus a rigorous philosophical tradition stretching back centuries, it is no wonder Hindus are hard to convert.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #197 on: January 04, 2015, 03:18:26 AM »
That's 5% spread.  Do the math over 2k years...... well... let's be fair, the G. Schism.  Still though, 1k years, if that 5% was that way through history.

Look, I'm just glad there is some retention.   But as an EO Christian, you know that anybody leaving the church and losing 1 is bad.

The Hiduism thing I had no idea on.  That's really bad.

I've worked with Hindus to bring them to Christ.  (in a simple way folks).   There is a reason they are so tough to convert.  They even believe in Jesus!  But he's just another deity.   

Hinduism is so diverse that it can accommodate even Atheism itself. The second thing is that Hindi Philosophy is complex just as with its sister religion, Buddhism.

Protestant theology is to my opinion inadequate when placed side by side with that of the Hindus and Buddhists. If I'm an informed Buddhist or Hindu, being Evangelized by some Protestant Missionaries, I would have rebutted them in debate, just like how the Buddhists did in Sri Lanka. Given this flexibility plus a rigorous philosophical tradition stretching back centuries, it is no wonder Hindus are hard to convert.


They have no dogma. Hindus and Buddhists don't have the dogmatic backbone that Christianity does, so they can accommodate any belief. I just read St. Nicholas of Japan's explanation of this in his experience living in Japan.

Without dogma, you're susceptible to any belief or tradition creeping in, compatible or not with the religion. With dogma however, dogmatism can become over zealously applied to the extent that if you don't believe x, y and z you're going straight to hell. You need the right balance, or else it all falls apart.

Buddhism and Hinduism have become accustomed to the latter discrepancy, while fundamentalist Protestantism and traditional Catholicism (as well as historically, medieval Catholicism in general,) have adopted the former position.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 03:19:57 AM by xOrthodox4Christx »
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #198 on: January 04, 2015, 03:47:35 AM »
"harder" would not be the word to use.

"Reality of History" would be better.

Fictional stories written for entertainment purposes loaded with sin, does not make sense to me. The purpose is one to attach emotionally to the characters as they develop in the story, while supporting, justifying, sympathizing, with sin.  A sin loaded fiction.

The Holocaust is a reality of humanity and a historical fact.  I believe a child should learn of the history of this event as it is a reality of our world.    Necromancy in King Arthur stories (for a small example) "used for good" paints an illusion against biblical principles.    There is no point to those stories, except entertainment.  Necromancy is absolutely condemned in our scriptures.  Fictional representations to be entertained with seems like not only a waste of time, but the enjoyment of fantasized power of witchcraft.

The same could apply to Harry Potter.   How many toys are sold because of this movie?    Ask yourself honestly, would you rather watch your children with a couch load of stuffed animals playing Noah's Ark, or pretending to place a Hex curse in a magic circle on their brother?

The eyes are the lamp of the body.    What we bring in obviously influences us and matters.

Not sure if I'm supposed to laugh or cry reading this. The stuff found in fictional literature that is PG rated can be found in Scriptures. Like the 10 Plagues that struck the Egyptians, the Crucifixion, Incest, sex, violence, immense battles, a Great Flood that destroyed most of animals and human beings.....etc. Sure Scripture is not entertainment, just as the works of Plato(some of which contain fictional elements to convey philosophical ideas), St Justin Martyr(Dialogue with Trypho is written ala Socratic dialogue so it is fictional) and many others were written not for entertainment purposes. This means just because something is fiction, it doesn't automatically make it a piece written to entertain. Sure enough, literature such as Sherlock Holmes and Harry Potter does give the reader entertainment but all fun and joy is not the sole purpose of literature. The emotional output, creativity, questions, morality, struggles...etc all comes into play as well.

Even then, to say that literature is bad because it is a "A sin loaded fiction" that goes against Biblical Principles doesn't mean that it is bad and we should all burn our television sets, story books, dvds...etc and proclaim the 'evils' of Literary fiction. No, it doesn't work that way. After all, people don't just derive entertainment from the violent or sinful details in a story, it is the underlying allegories, messages and struggles the author wishes to convey to the reader that counts. Take the Japanese anime series, Psycho Pass as an example. It is gruesome, it has loads of gore, it is violent but underlying this brutality is the questions that the writers of the series wishes to explore, such as Freedom, Omnipotence Paradox(explored in the Second Season) and Justice.

The Journey to the West also have plenty of unbiblical stuff and violence but it also conveys important messages such as how one have to go through hardship to attain Enlightenment(All the monsters were sent by the Buddha himself), how the underdogs can be the Hero that saves the day(Many of the main characters were banished from their original positions of prestige, except for the monk). It raises questions about why good people must go through suffering like the Book of Job. I mean if we want to interpret this in a Christian context, we can say that the author wishes to show that anyone have the capability to be Saved no matter how deep in Sin they are(this cannot apply to the Calvinist however).

The Romance of the Three Kingdoms as another example of Literary Fiction also contains the stuff, loads of the stuff you hate. But underlying all the war and betrayal that goes on, it encourages values such as loyalty, brotherhood, strategy(mostly in war but applicable in modern contexts such as Business) and creativity(for purposes of war but again, applicable in modern situations as well).

Oh, btw this, "The same could apply to Harry Potter.   How many toys are sold because of this movie?    Ask yourself honestly, would you rather watch your children with a couch load of stuffed animals playing Noah's Ark, or pretending to place a Hex curse in a magic circle on their brother?" is a Fallacy.

It's basically Post hoc ergo propter hoc since it presupposes that because of Harry Potter children are going to pretend to be magicians as a result of it. To put is simply,

Harry Potter -----> Children pretending to place curses(Amounts to the fallacy of the single cause as well)

This is also a False Attribution since not all children who watched or read Harry Potter is going to roleplay as magicians. Many of my friends read the novels as children, they never pretended to be magicians.

Generally speaking, I could go on and point out more fallacies but it is clear at this point, making that question up is a rather fallacious move.


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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #199 on: January 04, 2015, 03:49:19 AM »
That's 5% spread.  Do the math over 2k years...... well... let's be fair, the G. Schism.  Still though, 1k years, if that 5% was that way through history.

Look, I'm just glad there is some retention.   But as an EO Christian, you know that anybody leaving the church and losing 1 is bad.

The Hiduism thing I had no idea on.  That's really bad.

I've worked with Hindus to bring them to Christ.  (in a simple way folks).   There is a reason they are so tough to convert.  They even believe in Jesus!  But he's just another deity.  

Hinduism is so diverse that it can accommodate even Atheism itself. The second thing is that Hindi Philosophy is complex just as with its sister religion, Buddhism.

Protestant theology is to my opinion inadequate when placed side by side with that of the Hindus and Buddhists. If I'm an informed Buddhist or Hindu, being Evangelized by some Protestant Missionaries, I would have rebutted them in debate, just like how the Buddhists did in Sri Lanka. Given this flexibility plus a rigorous philosophical tradition stretching back centuries, it is no wonder Hindus are hard to convert.


They have no dogma. Hindus and Buddhists don't have the dogmatic backbone that Christianity does, so they can accommodate any belief. I just read St. Nicholas of Japan's explanation of this in his experience living in Japan.

Without dogma, you're susceptible to any belief or tradition creeping in, compatible or not with the religion. With dogma however, dogmatism can become over zealously applied to the extent that if you don't believe x, y and z you're going straight to hell. You need the right balance, or else it all falls apart.

Buddhism and Hinduism have become accustomed to the latter discrepancy, while fundamentalist Protestantism and traditional Catholicism (as well as historically, medieval Catholicism in general,) have adopted the former position.

Agreed  :)

But I would still hold Buddhist(because I'm more familiar with it) Philosophy as being higher than the Protestants. Orthodoxy I would say is superior since it is complete and is not susceptible to any belief or tradition.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 03:51:19 AM by sakura95 »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #200 on: January 04, 2015, 03:51:21 AM »
I think the graph can be explained by something besides religion. This is modernity, which acts like a virus with a payload that includes such things as fragmentation into individuals and shame in not changing. Therefore those populations into which modernity has had most penetration exhibit the least reluctance to abandon the originating religion -- a trend in keeping with all aspects of culture, by the way, and not only religion. How the virus operates I couldn't say.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #201 on: January 04, 2015, 04:17:29 AM »
Oh, btw this, "The same could apply to Harry Potter.   How many toys are sold because of this movie?    Ask yourself honestly, would you rather watch your children with a couch load of stuffed animals playing Noah's Ark, or pretending to place a Hex curse in a magic circle on their brother?" is a Fallacy.

It's basically Post hoc ergo propter hoc since it presupposes that because of Harry Potter children are going to pretend to be magicians as a result of it. To put is simply,

Harry Potter -----> Children pretending to place curses(Amounts to the fallacy of the single cause as well)

This is also a False Attribution since not all children who watched or read Harry Potter is going to roleplay as magicians. Many of my friends read the novels as children, they never pretended to be magicians.

Generally speaking, I could go on and point out more fallacies but it is clear at this point, making that question up is a rather fallacious move.

Not only that, but regardless of how a book or movie is marketed, no one is forced to buy any products related to them, including toys.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #202 on: January 04, 2015, 04:27:32 AM »
Yesh you really don't have to explain your upbringing of your kids on the internet to a bunch of us strangers. I'm not a fan of home schooling. I'm not a fan of public schools either. I think the best education on the market at this time is the Catholic schools. This is my opinion.

Well when Porter nearly called me an abuser and had a problem with how I am raising my children, obviously, I should defend.  His ridiculous and biased accusations only resonate his hatred towards personal problems he has with his childhood.  He makes my life that he has no idea about his whipping boy for personal issues.


 :D

Now that is funny.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #203 on: January 04, 2015, 04:27:32 AM »
I agree with you completely.  People are people.  Families are families.  Messed up situations happen in any environment public or otherwise.  In our circles, homeschoolers often turn out very well and in colleges.  It's about the parents, the education setup, the dedication, the groups they are in, and connections they make.

Here's where you're wrong. You've been admirably transparent on the forum that you participate in a specific subculture (one that's being well-documented by researchers such as those represented in some of my links). As such, you can't honestly claim the successes of a nebulous "homeschooling" without tying those statistics to your own subset of methods and milieu.

Some of those "well-documented" links are from people that had bad experiences.

Porter you understand you are not looking at the glass 7/8ths full.  Google will spit out what you look for.
The actual EXPERIENCE is much different or us.

Have you even looked into the dominance of Homeschoolers at venues like spelling bees?  Have you searched for public school vs homeschool and looked at test stats?

Homeschoolers do very well in those stats.

It just upsets me Porter that I put all this effort in and am involved in fantastic groups, have watched children mature into adults and go to college and sit here and listen to you rip on it.

I don't think you understand just how HUGE homeschooling is.   1 simple video of a graduation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrUej9x8iNQ

Homeschooling is very established and has huge groups all through America.


Quivering? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIwwiYt74JI

I just ask you not to be biased.  There are great groups and homeschoolers.



You just can't admit when you're wrong.

The presence of some good does not obliterate the bad.

Again, you can't get rid of problems by saying they don't exist, or by pointing to something else.
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Offline NCNewbie

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #204 on: January 04, 2015, 04:54:56 AM »
"Not only that, but regardless of how a book or movie is marketed, no one is forced to buy any products related to them, including toys."

Nor should we read a Marvel comic, then proceed to tie a sheet around our necks, draw a S on our chest and attempt to fly from the porch. Yeah, I admit it happened when much younger.  The broken nose still didn't hurt as much as the embarrassment.


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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #206 on: January 04, 2015, 05:26:00 PM »
So fielding possible questions on family relationships/feuds is harder than those on why the Holocaust happened?

Fictional stories written for entertainment purposes loaded with sin, does not make sense to me. The purpose is one to attach emotionally to the characters as they develop in the story, while supporting, justifying, sympathizing, with sin.  A sin loaded fiction.


So, what sort of fictional stories would you approve of?  Because you can't make a reader attach emotionally to characters if there isn't some sort of danger or evil to be dealt with.  Even if the protagonist isn't purely combatting this evil, a simple explanation of why something is wrong and what happens when you do it should suffice.  If not, they were probably going to do it anyway once they got out on their own.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #207 on: January 04, 2015, 05:34:37 PM »

The same could apply to Harry Potter.   How many toys are sold because of this movie?    Ask yourself honestly, would you rather watch your children with a couch load of stuffed animals playing Noah's Ark, or pretending to place a Hex curse in a magic circle on their brother?


Did you ever read or watch Harry Potter?  Only the bad guys cursed people on purpose.  There were also no magic circles, summonings, crystal grids, or anything else to do with actual witchcraft practices.  The terms "witch" and "wizard" were used, as were wands (which a few Wicca practitioners or Druids use) but the similarities end there.  You might as well say the Old Testament encourages children to practice Wicca because it has incense and priests (though priestesses are more common, I think).
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Offline Didyma

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #208 on: January 04, 2015, 05:37:32 PM »
I just read St. Nicholas of Japan's explanation of this in his experience living in Japan.

Where can I find this?
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #209 on: January 04, 2015, 05:46:21 PM »
I just read St. Nicholas of Japan's explanation of this in his experience living in Japan.

Where can I find this?

There are articles on Pravoslavie.ru
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #210 on: January 04, 2015, 06:04:29 PM »
The thing I appreciate about you Mennonite folks is that you don't discriminate against sinful modern literature/entertainment and glorify sinful literature/entertainment from the past like all those parents who blame everything and anything on rap/rock while looking to Beowulf and the Odyssey as pillars of morality.

But, back on topic.

One has to know their enemy in order to be able to handle it. I would rather my kids learn about sinfulness and witchcraft in an educational way opposed to keeping them ignorant of it forever. If parents don't teach them the truth, then the world will eventually teach them a vastly distorted version of the truth and they won't be able to handle it since we never prepared them for it.

As to whether or not this relates to the infamous Evangelical anti-Harry Potter thing, I don't know. I've read two of the Harry Potter books and the only true witchcraft I've observed in those books was Rowling's supernatural ability to structure her sentences in the most confusing, sloppy, and cumbersome way possible and yet still manage to be the most renowned author of the 21st century.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #211 on: January 04, 2015, 06:22:57 PM »
Quote
I would rather my kids learn about sinfulness and witchcraft in an educational way opposed to keeping them ignorant of it forever.

I thought you were never going to have children .....
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #212 on: January 04, 2015, 08:07:29 PM »
The thing I appreciate about you Mennonite folks is that you don't discriminate against sinful modern literature/entertainment and glorify sinful literature/entertainment from the past like all those parents who blame everything and anything on rap/rock while looking to Beowulf and the Odyssey as pillars of morality.

I don't know any adult that does that.  Academics do view those works as pillars of literature.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #213 on: January 04, 2015, 08:39:09 PM »
The thing I appreciate about you Mennonite folks is that you don't discriminate against sinful modern literature/entertainment and glorify sinful literature/entertainment from the past like all those parents who blame everything and anything on rap/rock while looking to Beowulf and the Odyssey as pillars of morality.

I don't know any adult that does that.  Academics do view those works as pillars of literature.
I dunno. With inspiration of the Odyssey, I now stab every cyclops that I meet in the eye with a wooden stake. I consider it to be an act of worship unto God.
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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #214 on: January 04, 2015, 08:46:51 PM »
It -almost- might be worth hanging around here waiting for someones children to grow up, leave the nest of no-fiction, and then hear about how poorly they are doing in college because they can't manage to do any of the -required- english literature work....having never read any of the expected texts......


almost.....

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #215 on: January 04, 2015, 10:06:47 PM »
It -almost- might be worth hanging around here waiting for someones children to grow up, leave the nest of no-fiction, and then hear about how poorly they are doing in college because they can't manage to do any of the -required- english literature work....having never read any of the expected texts......


almost.....

Don't worry.  There ain't no English Lit in the unaccredited Mennonite college.  Maybe some German.
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Should children be learning and entertained with witchcraft, sorcery, etc.
« Reply #216 on: January 16, 2015, 12:59:43 AM »
Just putting this out there, after we read it in class

Quote
As a treat for Hanukkah last month, Sandra Stotsky took her grandchildren to the New England Mobile Book Fair in Newton, Mass. They were wandering around aimlessly. The store in a suburb of Boston has 32,000 sq. ft, of books, but the kids had no favorite authors, nothing they'd been longing to read.

Stotsky, a self-described "professional Jewish grandmother," had plenty of suggestions. After all, she'd written the educational standards for Massachusetts's public schools, which were widely regarded as the best in the country until 2010, when they were replaced with the Common Core. She was appalled when one of her granddaughters eventually picked Catching Fire, the second book in the The Hunger Games trilogy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/10/if-we-stop-telling-kids-what-to-read-they-might-start-reading-again/