username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
 Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
 |
« on: February 19, 2012, 10:29:56 PM » |
|
http://www.saintclementsphiladelphia.org/index.phpAre they the same communion as the C of E up the street from me? The bread and butter Episcopalians or are they Anglo-Catholic? They have confessions and the whole nine-yards.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,402
|
|
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 10:38:10 PM » |
|
Not knowing the info on the church up the street from you I can't answer that one. They are in the same communion as the Episcopal Church USA and Church of England. As it states on the website right under the parish's name they do seem to be (very) Anglo-Catholic |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 10:40:11 PM » |
|
Not knowing the info on the church up the street from you I can't answer that one. They are in the same communion as the Episcopal Church USA and Church of England. As it states on the website right under the parish's name they do seem to be (very) Anglo-Catholic "up the street" means my late grandfather's C of E. When I was a kid it was a male priest, mass was more elaborate than the RC mass. Now they've had a woman priest and it's all different. No confessions, etc.. I gather there is a wide spectrum in the C of E. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,402
|
|
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 10:49:33 PM » |
|
Not knowing the info on the church up the street from you I can't answer that one. They are in the same communion as the Episcopal Church USA and Church of England. As it states on the website right under the parish's name they do seem to be (very) Anglo-Catholic "up the street" means my late grandfather's C of E. When I was a kid it was a male priest, mass was more elaborate than the RC mass. Now they've had a woman priest and it's all different. No confessions, etc.. I gather there is a wide spectrum in the C of E. Indeed- even wider here in the States since 2009. If you're in the area covered by the territory of the former Episcopalian Diocese of Pittsburgh then odds are your grandfather's parish is not in communion with tEC (and thus the church in website) at all anymore- the entire diocese left to form the ACNA. Now, if your grandfather's parish was Diocese of Pennsylvania, then yes, it is most likely in communion with the church in the website. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 10:49:58 PM by FormerReformer »
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
|
Aindriú
|
|
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 10:58:34 PM » |
|
As far as I can tell it's an Anglo-Catholic church in the TEC. I wouldn't be surprised, if it went to the Roman ordinariate.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
 I'm going to need this. |
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 11:02:39 PM » |
|
I'm gathering they are in communion. I had a teacher at my catholic high school that went to an Anglican church nearby. She said the rosary, they had confessions... the whole nine-yards. I don't even think it exists anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2012, 08:49:39 AM » |
|
"up the street" means my late grandfather's C of E. Since your profile says you live in PA, I'm guessing there's typo in here somewhere. Surely there's no street stretching from PA to England!   |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 10:55:46 AM » |
|
"up the street" means my late grandfather's C of E. Since your profile says you live in PA, I'm guessing there's typo in here somewhere. Surely there's no street stretching from PA to England! Sure that road stops in PA, England and Hogwarts. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 11:26:13 AM » |
|
Sure that road stops in PA, England and Hogwarts.
Well now I feel bad for thinking that the Orthodox don't have a sense of humor. But if we could be serious for a moment, what did you really mean by "the C of E up the street from me"? "C of E" usually means "Church of England", non? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 11:41:02 AM » |
|
Sure that road stops in PA, England and Hogwarts.
Well now I feel bad for thinking that the Orthodox don't have a sense of humor. But if we could be serious for a moment, what did you really mean by "the C of E up the street from me"? "C of E" usually means "Church of England", non? Well, they are in the same anglican communion whether they're Episcopalians or whatnot. I didn't realize that C of E only meant a church in England properly, or I forgot or something. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 12:01:50 PM » |
|
Sure that road stops in PA, England and Hogwarts.
Well now I feel bad for thinking that the Orthodox don't have a sense of humor. But if we could be serious for a moment, what did you really mean by "the C of E up the street from me"? "C of E" usually means "Church of England", non? Well, they are in the same anglican communion whether they're Episcopalians or whatnot. I didn't realize that C of E only meant a church in England properly, or I forgot or something. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2012, 12:07:40 PM » |
|
Sure that road stops in PA, England and Hogwarts.
Well now I feel bad for thinking that the Orthodox don't have a sense of humor. But if we could be serious for a moment, what did you really mean by "the C of E up the street from me"? "C of E" usually means "Church of England", non? Well, they are in the same anglican communion whether they're Episcopalians or whatnot. I didn't realize that C of E only meant a church in England properly, or I forgot or something. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2012, 12:18:01 PM » |
|
Sure that road stops in PA, England and Hogwarts.
Well now I feel bad for thinking that the Orthodox don't have a sense of humor. But if we could be serious for a moment, what did you really mean by "the C of E up the street from me"? "C of E" usually means "Church of England", non? Well, they are in the same anglican communion whether they're Episcopalians or whatnot. I didn't realize that C of E only meant a church in England properly, or I forgot or something. . |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 12:29:17 PM » |
|
Not knowing the info on the church up the street from you I can't answer that one. They are in the same communion as the Episcopal Church USA and Church of England. As it states on the website right under the parish's name they do seem to be (very) Anglo-Catholic Yes, judging by their website I would suppose they in the EP-USA but strongly Anglo-Catholic. I would imagine many people would like to see them go over to the Continuing Anglicans, or at least ACNA. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 02:54:06 PM » |
|
Not knowing the info on the church up the street from you I can't answer that one. They are in the same communion as the Episcopal Church USA and Church of England. As it states on the website right under the parish's name they do seem to be (very) Anglo-Catholic Yes, judging by their website I would suppose they in the EP-USA but strongly Anglo-Catholic. I would imagine many people would like to see them go over to the Continuing Anglicans, or at least ACNA. What's the difference between Continuing Anglicans or ACNA? |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 02:55:40 PM by username! »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Aindriú
|
|
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 03:06:30 PM » |
|
Continuing Anglicans are those that don't belong to the TEC/CoE communion. ACNA is one of many Continuing Anglican communions.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm going to need this. |
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 03:07:54 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Aindriú
|
|
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 03:36:10 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
No, they don't. Since St. Clement's is in the TEC, it's should be using the BCP 1979. Continuing Anglican churches usually use the older BCP of 1928, which is more conservative. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
I'm going to need this. |
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,402
|
|
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2012, 04:19:54 PM » |
|
Continuing Anglicans are those that don't belong to the TEC/CoE communion. ACNA is one of many Continuing Anglican communions.
Well, the deal with the ACNA is kind of murky. They definitely aren't in communion with tEC, they might be in communion with some CoE parishes that signed with GAFCON, and they are in communion with many of the "jurisdictions" in the wider Anglican Communion. Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
No, they don't. Since St. Clement's is in the TEC, it's should be using the BCP 1979. Continuing Anglican churches usually use the older BCP of 1928, which is more conservative. I'm not sure, having been out of the loop for a few years now, but I thought Anglo-Catholic churches were still allowed to use the Missal, the banned BCPs being 1928 and older American BCPs and the 1666. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2012, 04:39:59 PM » |
|
The ACNA is not (yet) an official province of the Anglican Communion, but it is in full communion with the Anglican churches of Nigeria, Uganda, and Sudan. At least that's according to wikipedia. ACNA is one of many Continuing Anglican communions.
That's what I used to think. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2012, 12:03:06 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
Someone said BCP 1979. But it seems pretty much the same as a 1962 like Roman Missal with more english used. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Schultz
|
|
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2012, 12:21:55 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
Someone said BCP 1979. But it seems pretty much the same as a 1962 like Roman Missal with more english used. They use the English Missal. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2012, 12:23:56 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
Someone said BCP 1979. But it seems pretty much the same as a 1962 like Roman Missal with more english used. They use the English Missal. thank thee It looks like a (doesn't have a priest's confession before he takes communion) 1962 roman missal with bcp prayers added in. Whatever it is, it's pretty nice. Perhaps the Roman Catholics ought to look to using a like-texted mass in English as well. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 12:27:59 PM by username! »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2012, 12:51:40 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
Well put it this way: in North America, ninety-some percent of Anglicans are in the TEC and the Anglican Church of Cananda (the 2 ultra-liberal provinces of the Anglican Communion), and a much smaller number are in ACNA and the Continuing Anglican Churches. But, TEC and the Anglican Church of Cananda are only about 5% of Anglicans world-wide. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,718
Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
|
|
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2012, 01:52:19 PM » |
|
Which then don't have the money and power TEC has?
What liturgy is St. Clement's using?
Someone said BCP 1979. But it seems pretty much the same as a 1962 like Roman Missal with more english used. They use the English Missal. thank thee It looks like a (doesn't have a priest's confession before he takes communion) 1962 roman missal with bcp prayers added in. Whatever it is, it's pretty nice. Perhaps the Roman Catholics ought to look to using a like-texted mass in English as well. That might not be bad. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
|
|
|
Ortho_cat
|
|
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2012, 02:02:43 PM » |
|
Not knowing the info on the church up the street from you I can't answer that one. They are in the same communion as the Episcopal Church USA and Church of England. As it states on the website right under the parish's name they do seem to be (very) Anglo-Catholic "up the street" means my late grandfather's C of E. When I was a kid it was a male priest, mass was more elaborate than the RC mass. Now they've had a woman priest and it's all different. No confessions, etc.. I gather there is a wide spectrum in the C of E. she might even be practicing and openly homosexual. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601
Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
|
|
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2012, 02:29:09 PM » |
|
Wow...
Just flipping through the parish website's photos. It's beautiful! If this is what Anglicanism was everywhere here in the States, I would probably be Anglican!
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
|
|
|
|
Schultz
|
|
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2012, 02:34:12 PM » |
|
Wow...
Just flipping through the parish website's photos. It's beautiful! If this is what Anglicanism was everywhere here in the States, I would probably be Anglican!
I agree. I go to Philly frequently and usually end up in the neighborhood that St. Clement's is in. I'm going to have to go in there one of these days for a service. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2012, 02:49:28 PM » |
|
Wow...
Just flipping through the parish website's photos. It's beautiful! If this is what Anglicanism was everywhere here in the States, I would probably be Anglican!
I agree. I go to Philly frequently and usually end up in the neighborhood that St. Clement's is in. I'm going to have to go in there one of these days for a service. You should and tell us about it. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Ortho_cat
|
|
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2012, 02:59:11 PM » |
|
Wow...
Just flipping through the parish website's photos. It's beautiful! If this is what Anglicanism was everywhere here in the States, I would probably be Anglican!
Thank God Orthodoxy is more than just stylized architecture... |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601
Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
|
|
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2012, 03:04:14 PM » |
|
Wow...
Just flipping through the parish website's photos. It's beautiful! If this is what Anglicanism was everywhere here in the States, I would probably be Anglican!
Thank God Orthodoxy is more than just stylized architecture... Lol. Perhaps I should've elaborated? Several years ago, I was a classical Presbyterian looking for a more traditional form of Christianity. I flirted with Anglicanism, but given their doctrinal battles and increasingly minimalistic liturgy, I went back to Presbyterianism. I later found Orthodoxy. So, to contextualize my statement: if I had found a universal witness to traditional liturgy and practice within the Anglican Communion, I would've become an Anglo-Catholic and been quite happy with myself. However, having now found Orthodoxy, I could never be anything less! (And give up the Byzantine Liturgy? Crazy talk!) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2012, 03:07:27 PM » |
|
The thing is I read the anglican use mass that the RCC lets them use. It's not really THAT much different than the 1970 Roman Missal. If this church would go to the anglican ordinate under the pope that is the future they'd probably been look to.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2012, 03:37:50 PM » |
|
The thing is I read the anglican use mass that the RCC lets them use. It's not really THAT much different than the 1970 Roman Missal.
Fr. Robert Hart (I've been reading some of his writings recently, as you may have noticed) commented, On theological principle, I find it utterly appalling that Rome found it necessary to remove the following words from their so-called Anglican Use:
"Almighty God, our heavenly Father, who of thy tender mercy didst give thine only Son Jesus Christ to suffer death upon the Cross for our redemption; who made there (by his one oblation of himself once offered) a full, perfect, and sufficient sacrifice, oblation, and satisfaction, for the sins of the whole world"
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2012, 03:39:00 PM » |
|
If this church would go to the anglican ordinate under the pope ...
I wouldn't hold your breath. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2012, 03:49:26 PM » |
|
If this church would go to the anglican ordinate under the pope ...
I wouldn't hold your breath. I was going to say, what would benefit them from doing so anyway? They seem fine the way they are. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Peter J
|
|
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2012, 04:02:29 PM » |
|
If this church would go to the anglican ordinate under the pope ...
I wouldn't hold your breath. I was going to say, what would benefit them from doing so anyway? They seem fine the way they are.
Well ... I assume opinions on that will vary. But everyone can agree that only a very small number of Anglicans have "gone ordinariate". |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
|
|
|
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,402
|
|
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2012, 04:06:45 PM » |
|
If this church would go to the anglican ordinate under the pope ...
I wouldn't hold your breath. I was going to say, what would benefit them from doing so anyway? They seem fine the way they are. Until their current priest retires (or gets deposed, but I'm sure any Anglo-Catholics that are left in tEC are very good in at making fudge)- then all bets are off in the tEC of today. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are." TH White Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy! |
|
|
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
Offline
Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,027
|
|
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2012, 04:08:20 PM » |
|
If this church would go to the anglican ordinate under the pope ...
I wouldn't hold your breath. I was going to say, what would benefit them from doing so anyway? They seem fine the way they are. Until their current priest retires (or gets deposed, but I'm sure any Anglo-Catholics that are left in tEC are very good in at making fudge)- then all bets are off in the tEC of today. This is just a different level of "communion" than I am familiar with. Seems to be rather complicated. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
