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Author Topic: Greek Orthodox vs Franciscans  (Read 2539 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jakub
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« on: September 28, 2004, 12:14:50 PM »

Let's get it on ? Rumble in Jerusalem ?

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/482463.html

JB
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2004, 12:15:43 PM »

I have heard two reports. One says the GO patriarch started. Another said the Franciscan was taunting them (that was an eyewitness report).  Who knows.

Anastasios
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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2004, 12:19:52 PM »

[Another said the Franciscan was taunting them (that was an eyewitness report).  Who knows.}

How do you taunt a Greek monk?  "Our patriarch has his own city state and your's doesn't"HuhHuhHuh??  

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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2004, 12:27:17 PM »

I'm negotiating for the film "The Fall Slam Fest, Rumble in Jerusalem".

Investments are available !

JB
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2004, 12:48:03 PM »

First the Greek Orthodox Patriarch is fighting with the Armenian Patriarch, then he locked the Ethiopians out, now the Franciscans.  It seems to me the Greek Patriarch is bent on having the Anastasis for himself to the exclusion of everyone else.
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2004, 12:49:36 PM »

Dcn Lance,

The Franciscans in the Holy Land are notoriously rude from what I have heard.  I will post the eyewitness account I received.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2004, 12:49:54 PM by anastasios » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2004, 12:50:46 PM »

Eyewitness account of today's events:
The procession referred to follows the Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Patriarch archbishops, metropolitans, bishops priests and deacons. There were many pilgrims and clergy from all over the world. The Patriarch and all celebrants go to the deep former-quarry and cistern near Golgotha where St. Helena found the True Cross. Large pieces of the wood of the Cross are in a large (1-1/2 feet high?) reliquary shaped like a cross and having a padded base. After raising high the cross and lowering it to the floor and raising it again at the 4 sides of that room, along with prayers for God's mercy, the Patriarch stands the Cross on his head (hence the padded base) and accompanied by hymns begins the ascent from the deep quarry to the main level of the Church, then to the Tomb of Christ, which is circled 3 times, and then to Golgotha. At Golgotha the Cross is again raised high and lowered to the floor in blessing at the four sides of the chapel of Golgotha. This is the normal progress of the service. Today was different.
 
 I was right behind the patriarch's body guards and stepped in to help act as a shield when the procession reached the open door to the Latin chapel. Their door has always been shut as the procession passes and opened as soon as the Orthodox go by. This year the head Franciscan at the Holy Sepulcher, not the head of all the Franciscans here, stood in the open doorway. The Patriarch halted the procession to ask if that meant he wanted the Cross to enter. He said "no", so the Partiarch said "shut the door." He said "no". So the Patriarch tried to head the procession into the Latin chapel. It escalated from there because the Patriarch said the procession would not continue past the open door since it had never done so. He stood his ground. Gradually as the heat rose, the people began singing "Kyrie, eleison!" very loudly. Shoving, shouting, calling for the door to be shut or allowance for the Cross to enter. Sometimes it looked like peace would prevail and then it picked up again. It went on for what seemed a long time. The Patriarch became exhausted and the police in blue, [there were 3 different uniforms seen: regular tourist police (blue), the Latin-friendly police (grey), and riot police (green)-the last to arrive], for safety and because the real fighting had started, insisted that he move to a bench to the side and sit down. The head Fransiscan was soon hawled away fighting but I don't know if for his safety, first aid or arrest. (Later he was described to me as an American with a very big nose, i.e., proud, and has been known as a trouble maker.) One of the guardians of Golgotha, Fr. Sophronius, was very slightly burned on his face when someone held a lit lighter up to his cheek. I was shoved, well maybe more than shoved, by police but did not see clubs being wielded, only held in a threatening manner. And the fighting continued. When at last the prayers and persistance of the Orthodox prevailed, the Latin door was closed for a second and the procession continued with "Soson Kyrie..." being intermixed with "Axios!" for the Patriarch. Unfortunately, at the Patriarchate reception following the conclusion of the service, i.e., Elevation of the Cross on Golgotha, where the procession ended, the Patriarch spoke in Greek and there was not a translator for me to know what he said, but several times a priest called for "Axios" from the people.
 
A personal note: What a blessing to be able to venerate the very wood of the Cross on which our Saviour suffered and died, and to venerate the Tomb in which His body was laid and then arose. And even more, to receive His very Flesh and Blood in communion on this feast.
 
In 1990, 14 years ago, I made my first pilgrimage to Jerusalem with Fr. Nikodim for this very feast. I won't go into those 14 years of my life now, but much is different and I realized last night at Liturgy on Golgotha how good God is and how grateful I am that God desires not the death of the sinner but that he return and live. For one thing, since the feast of St. Anthony the Great in 1999, I have been dressed in the black of the monastic life. I have many wounds and passions still to be healed, but by God's grace and your prayers, God's healing work will continue.
Pray for us who remember you at the holy places in the midst of the earth where our salvation was wrought.
Oh Lord, save Thy people!
fr. James

[Note from Anastasios: Fr James is a ROCOR monk]
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2004, 12:55:28 PM »

Geeesh, you've got to be kidding me. This is so silly it's kinda funny.

I like this from the article:

Quote
But a year earlier, the Greek patriarch and Armenian clergyman designated to enter the tomb exchanged blows after a spat over who would be first to exit the chamber.


LOL!!!!! Wow, talk about splitting hairs.....
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2004, 12:58:54 PM »

First the Greek Orthodox Patriarch is fighting with the Armenian Patriarch, then he locked the Ethiopians out, now the Franciscans.  It seems to me the Greek Patriarch is bent on having the Anastasis for himself to the exclusion of everyone else.

Good.
Orthodoxy is native to Jerusalem anyway.
latins don't belong in the Middle East.
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2004, 02:08:07 PM »

Quote from: sdcheung Good.
Orthodoxy is native to Jerusalem anyway.
latins don't belong in the Middle East.
[quote

Is this the domino effect Tongue ? Please..........


james
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2004, 02:39:01 PM »

Anastasios,

I will not argue with you there, they kicked some Melkite monks out of a monastery they owned but the Melkites had been using for years.  However, your eyewitness account does not exhonerate the Patriarch.  He could have simply ignored the Franciscans and kept the procession going.  His actions aswell as that of the Franciscan were unbecoming Christians let alone those in orders.  This incident coupled with the others that have been occruing since this Patriarch was elected make this Patriarch look like a trouble maker.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2004, 02:43:09 PM »

SD,

Your comments here and else where on this forum are so asinine as to not merit any comment other than how does one who advocates intolerance of or condones violence against others claim the title Christian?
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2004, 02:50:57 PM »

Seriously, though...fisticuffs??  I thought we were being delivered from fear of death and deprivation and were supposed to be free and secure in Christ...would it have killed the Patriarch to just let the Franciscan "have his little way" and keep going?
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2004, 03:04:15 PM »

Eh..Whatever.


SD,

Your comments here and else where on this forum are so asinine as to not merit any comment other than how does one who advocates intolerance of or condones violence against others claim the title Christian?
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2004, 04:54:02 PM »

Actually this is a lose/lose incident, it does not matter who provoked it, the situation should have ended as soon as it started, this makes both parties un-brotherly, and the Jews & Muslims are snickering.

The more I think about it the more embarassed  EmbarrassedI get.

james
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« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2004, 06:00:30 PM »

i think this part of the world wide war of Orthodoxy on Catholicism. Did you guys hear about that explosion that caused a 5.0 earthquake in Poland?[of all places!!] The explosion was in Kalinigrad. The MP must be mad at the Polish priests in Russia bringing people from atheism to Catholcism. Okay i'm kidding[about the war] but not the earthquake. DOn't ban me from this forum
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2004, 03:07:57 PM »

At least if the Greek Orthodox monk had punched a Calvinist (instead of a Roman Catholic) that might make it slightly more tolerable. LOL This whole affair is SAD and a terrible witness to the world.
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« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2004, 12:38:58 AM »

Quote
This whole affair is SAD and a terrible witness to the world.

Tikhon,

That is exactly what I thought when I read about this occurance, but things like this are bound to happen considering the fact that Church is made up of imperfect human beings. I for one would like to be able to pick up a newspaper and read about the positive things the Holy Orthodox Church has done (and continues to do) in the world, instead of focusing on the negative.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2004, 02:28:06 AM »

[I for one would like to be able to pick up a newspaper and read about the positive things the Holy Orthodox Church has done (and continues to do) in the world, instead of focusing on the negative.]

Then best you go to an Orthodox country.  Because in the west the press is very anti Orthodox.

Orthodoc

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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2004, 02:46:55 AM »

Quote
Because in the west the press is very anti Orthodox.

I've noticed that, but I would also have to say that the western press is anti-Christian in general.
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2004, 07:08:57 AM »

This whole affair is SAD and a terrible witness to the world.

Yeah.  Sin is ugly.  Lord, have mercy on us all.
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2004, 01:00:42 PM »

I like this treatment better.
Photius/sdcheung

http://hellenicnationalist.blogspot.com


Catholic Crusaders Assault Greek Priests At Holy Sepulchre

The Greek Orthodox Church, the one true church of Christ, has sole
rights to the church of the Holy Sepulchre. The various false churches ,
with the Papal abomination in the lead, have caused immense damage to
Orthodoxy and to the entire world with their long legacies of theft and
violence to Greek and Arab Christians coupled with their support of
humanism, leading inevitably to the rise of Marx and Freud.

As if this was not enough , they chose to insult us on a procession that
marked the distant beginnings of Byzantium, when Helena, mother of
Constantine, discovered the True Cross.

The Catholic Crusader invasion, looting and later occupation of
Constantinople in the 1200s led to the rise of Turkdom. Many of the most
sacred interiors of Orthodox Churches were stripped bare by these
barbaric hordes that were known to spear babies and rape nuns.


To this day the bitter animosity that these heretics project toward us
is evidenced by the support they lend to the occupation army in the Holy
Land coupled with their extensive missionary work targeting the realm of
Byzantium.


Once a barbarian, always a barbarian.


*********************************************


Punch-up at tomb of Jesus
Allyn Fisher-Ilan in JerusalemTuesday
September 28, 2004 The Guardian

Fistfights broke out yesterday between Christians gathered on the site
of the crucifixion and burial of Jesus Christ.

"There was lots of hitting going on. Police were hit, monks were hit ...
there were people with bloodied faces," said a witness in the Church of
the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, reputed to be Golgotha where Christ was
crucified, and the site of the tomb where he was buried.

The punch-up erupted during a procession to mark the discovery in 327 by
Helena, mother of Constantine, of the True Cross.

A Greek Orthodox cleric said Franciscans had left open their chapel door
in what was taken as disrespect. Priests and worshippers hit one another
at the doorway dividing Orthodox and Franciscans, said a police
spokesman.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1314466,00.html
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