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Author Topic: Current state of ROCOR  (Read 4206 times) Average Rating: 0
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carpo-rusyn
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« on: October 03, 2004, 12:56:36 PM »

A posting on an Orthodox list serve I'm on mentioned that  there are divisions within ROCOR, one under Met Vitaly the other under another hierarch.  I had always thought that ROCOR was pretty united under Met Laurus based in Jordanville.  Anyone know what the current state of ROCOR is?  Also is it still called ROCOR?  I seen it called ROCA??

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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2004, 03:19:02 PM »

carpo-rusyn

Both names are used, Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) and Russian Orthodox Church Abroad (ROCA). The three most recent splits were in the mid-80's (HOCNA), the mid-90's (ROAC), and a few years ago (ROCiE). Once the ROCOR establish communion with the Moscow Patriarchate, there might be another split... time will tell.

The current state of ROCOR is cautious optimism Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2004, 04:34:13 PM »

ROCiE has about 3 members Wink  Well seriously, maybe a couple hundred, max.  Don't be fooled by "online schisms" as I call them.
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2004, 08:23:16 PM »

Thanks for the info.  My wife, who works in Princeton NJ, was told about a ROCOR parish near there in Rocky Hill.  She was told the liturgy is all in English and wanted to go for All-Night Vigil.  Just wanted to see which way the wind was blowing.

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2004, 01:51:42 PM »

The rumors of the death of ROCOR have been greatly exagerated.
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2004, 05:01:29 PM »

I haven't seen any rumors about the death of ROCOR, but their own actions do seem to point in that direction. As has been mentioned, there have been several schisms, and once communion is re-established with the MP you can look for more. Metropolitan Laurus is a wise and holy man, but some within ROCOR have no desire to return to full communion with the Church. Those who choose to separate (or remain separated) from the Church cause their own spiritual deaths.

I am curious, though, about what will come of the ROCOR parishes in the United States once they are reunited with the Moscow Patriarchate. Will they simply become MP parishes here, or will something perhaps be worked out with OCA?
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2004, 05:10:32 PM »

Quote
I haven't seen any rumors about the death of ROCOR, but their own actions do seem to point in that direction. As has been mentioned, there have been several schisms, and once communion is re-established with the MP you can look for more. Metropolitan Laurus is a wise and holy man, but some within ROCOR have no desire to return to full communion with the Church. Those who choose to separate (or remain separated) from the Church cause their own spiritual deaths.

ROCOR *is* the Church, in the sense that it is part of the Orthodox Church, so there can be no talk of it returning to "full communion *with* the Church."

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2004, 05:30:41 PM »

[The rumors of the death of ROCOR have been greatly exagerated. ]

You can say that again!  When a couple separates and reunites one of them doesn't die.  Nothing need change.  Not even the name -ROCOR (Russian orthodox Church Outside Russia).

Both will benefit from such a reunion.

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2004, 10:37:20 PM »

Quote
ROCOR *is* the Church, in the sense that it is part of the Orthodox Church, so there can be no talk of it returning to "full communion *with* the Church."

No offense, but this does not accurately reflect the reality of ROCOR's status. I did not question their place in the Orthodox Church nor their canonical status. I did, however, point out the fact that they are separated from the great majority of autocephalous churches, and this is an undisputable fact. And the longer they remain separated, the more damage they cause the Body of Christ in the form of their various schisms. If they were not lacking full communion, why would they be seeking to re-establish communion with the Moscow Patriarchate? Why would such talks be required? The Church of Greece has no need to re-establish communion with the Russian Church or the Romanian Church -- they are in communion with one another. ROCOR is separated and is now seeking to return. To suggest otherwise is to simply misrepresent the truth.
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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2004, 11:19:18 PM »

Amenisiac99,

You have oversimplified the status of ROCOR greatly. ROCOR only has severed communion with the MP over Sergianism.  It did not sever communion with anyone else, although it normally does not concelebrate with other Churches because of ecumenism (last year in Great Britain it concelebrated with the ecumenical patriarchate).

The OCA until 1971 was in almost the same position as ROCOR in that it was separated from the Moscow Patriarchate as well. No one called the OCA "uncanonical" though when it was the Metropolia.

Maybe you should ask yourself why the Metropolia went into schism from ROCOR in 1927 and 1946? And why its schism in 1927 led to the Aftimios Ofiesh saga?  Maybe you should ask yourself if the MP has really completely cleaned up its act? I hope it has but am not totally convinced.  

ROCOR is not seeking to "return" to the MP, it is seeking to restore concelebration and communion.  It is not a submission but a restoration of several dioceses with other dioceses of the one Russian Church.

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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2004, 09:38:46 AM »

Dustin,

I thought I was fairly well read in Church History regarding the Metropolia/OCA and ROCOR but am perplexed by what you have written:

"Maybe you should ask yourself why the Metropolia went into schism from ROCOR in 1927 and 1946? And why its schism in 1927 led to the Aftimios Ofiesh saga? "

Apparently I don't know as much as I thought.  Could you please clarify what you are alluding to?

Thanks.

sjb
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2004, 10:06:20 AM »

I am curious, though, about what will come of the ROCOR parishes in the United States once they are reunited with the Moscow Patriarchate. Will they simply become MP parishes here, or will something perhaps be worked out with OCA?

For the time being, I doubt there will be an administrative union.  The MP might want it, but most people in ROCOR would not accept it.  The parishes in the US are mostly incorporated (I do not know about parishes in other countries), so there will not likely be any property changing hands, as the Synod doesn't actually hold the deed to a lot of the churches.  I do not know what the relationship between the OCA & ROCOR will be.  Since the OCA is an independent entity & ROCOR is as well, they might just have to have talks amoungst themselves.  I think Met. Lavr is tackling one issue at a time for the moment.
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2004, 10:35:30 AM »


According to the Tomos signed in 1970 the agreement was that the MP would continue to administer to those parishes who were under their authority at that time and elected not to become part of the OCA.  This would continue until they, on there own, elected to become part of the OCA.  

The agreement further stipulated that the MP agreed not to accept any new parishes from other jurisdictions or set up new missions to stop any jurisdictional hopping once the autocephally took place.  That's why the few churches that left the OCA over the calendar issue went to ROCOR in the first place.

So in regards to ROCOR, either the Tomos will have to be changed or the ROCOR parishes in the U.S. along with their Bishops will become a separate & self governing diocese within the OCA such as the Albanian, Bulgarian, and Romanian.  This makes the most sense but politics and pride will most probably get in the way.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

Patriarch Alexi was trying to get the OCA to set up a separate Russian diocese within the OCA to take care of the Russian immigration before this thawing between the MP & ROCOR took place.  From what I understand, he even offered to supply the OCA with priests and a Bishop if need be.  But, of course, thats all rumor and I have no facts to back it up.  But ROCOR could easily take over this responsibility.

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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2004, 10:50:20 AM »

Dustin,

I thought I was fairly well read in Church History regarding the Metropolia/OCA and ROCOR but am perplexed by what you have written:

"Maybe you should ask yourself why the Metropolia went into schism from ROCOR in 1927 and 1946? And why its schism in 1927 led to the Aftimios Ofiesh saga? "

Apparently I don't know as much as I thought.  Could you please clarify what you are alluding to?

Thanks.

sjb

Hi Stephen,

I used to consider myself well-read on this issue until I stumbled accross a booklet called The Truth About the Russian Church Abroad by M. Rozdianko (brother of the late Bp Boris of the OCA).  While the booklet is admittedly polemical, and should be read against something else that is of another persuasion (Pospielovsky, for instance, who is extremely anti-ROCOR) in order to get a fuller picture, I realized after reading the booklet that there are many points in it that are not answered by Pospielovsky or others.

Basically in 1927 Metropolitan Platon of the Metropolia in America left communion and administrative union with the Synod Abroad, which had been incorporated after the fall of Russia.  Many people will claim that Platon only had a "working relationship" with the Synod, but I don't think this can be claimed because there had been written agreements. At any rate, he created an "autocephalous Orthodox Church of America" which got him into some real hot water: even Pat. Basil III of Constantinople called the body uncanonical and ordered the Greeks to have no communion with it.  When Platon backed down--this is the kicker--Bp Aftimios Ofiesh stayed in the "new" body and voila, that's where his three trillion ( Wink) descendent "churches" stem from.

In 1935, the council of the five metropolitans in Sremski-Karlovci was held, and Met Theophilus (Met Platon's successor) and Met Evloghy (Of the "Paris" jurisdiction) both agreed to be a part of the Synod again.  Unfortunately, pressure on Met. Evloghy led to his withdrawl very soon after, but Met Theophilus and the Metropolia in America stayed a part of the Synod until 1946.  At that point, they withdrew again.

Now, I am not one to say that ROCOR is perfect and that there might not have been some internal quarrels among the metropolitans that led to this schism, but are we really willing to call ROCOR schismatic (no one on this thread has used that term but others have) or "separated" when ROCOR has remained pretty firm in its stance since 1921?

The issue is much more complex and I am only paraphrasing what I wrote. So please take it for what it is and read the booklet which you can order from various ROCOR presses (it was re-printed at Jordanville in 2002).

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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2004, 11:10:03 AM »

["Maybe you should ask yourself why the Metropolia went into schism from ROCOR in 1927 and 1946? And why its schism in 1927 led to the Aftimios Ofiesh saga? "]

Here's the short version:

What is now the OCA can trace its existence back to 1794.  Up until the revolution it was a diocese within the Moscow Patriarchate.  It was in existence and functioning long before the necessity to create a jurisdiction which later became known as ROCOR.  So the term schism is an improper term to use.

When the Metropolia (now the OCA) joined with the other Bishops who were exiled as a result of the revolution, it became apparent they had nothing in common.  The exiled bishops saw themselves as being in dasporia until the fall of communism when they could return to their homeland.  The Metropolia saw itself as not being in diaspora awaiting the return to Russia but as a viable diocese within America already in existence for 123 years whose goal was to create an Orthodox presence in its adopted land.

That is why it severed its ties with what is now know as ROCOR.

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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2004, 12:12:37 PM »

So in regards to ROCOR, either the Tomos will have to be changed or the ROCOR parishes in the U.S. along with their Bishops will become a separate & self governing diocese within the OCA such as the Albanian, Bulgarian, and Romanian.  This makes the most sense but politics and pride will most probably get in the way.  It will be interesting to see what happens.

Patriarch Alexi was trying to get the OCA to set up a separate Russian diocese within the OCA to take care of the Russian immigration before this thawing between the MP & ROCOR took place.  From what I understand, he even offered to supply the OCA with priests and a Bishop if need be.  But, of course, thats all rumor and I have no facts to back it up.  But ROCOR could easily take over this responsibility.

Orthodoc

I think there already is a Russian Diocese within the OCA.  I'm not sure if they're old or new calendar (could be old), but they do their services almost entirely in Slavonic.  I think the parish in Berkeley, CA is part of it.
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2004, 12:27:43 PM »

Elisha,

There is no Russian diocese in the OCA at this point, because the Synod was opposed to its creation by and large.  The idea is that there could be a vicar bishop for Russian-speaking parishes, but the idea of adding more and more layers of beaurocracy (sp?) and more and more autonomous jurisidctions within jurisdicitons is not the way to go.

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2004, 12:47:55 PM »

Elisha,

There is no Russian diocese in the OCA at this point, because the Synod was opposed to its creation by and large.  The idea is that there could be a vicar bishop for Russian-speaking parishes, but the idea of adding more and more layers of beaurocracy (sp?) and more and more autonomous jurisidctions within jurisdicitons is not the way to go.

Anastasios

I e-mailed my priest, but I think he is out of town for a couple of days.  I looked on the website and I think we're both right to some extent.  There is a San Francisco Russian Missionary Deanery District in the Diocese of the West, separate from the other Pacific Deanery(s) w/ parishes in SF, Berkeley, Menlo Park, West Sac and Santa Barbara.  And yes, OC and Slavonic for the most part (the Berkely page says English and Slavonic while SF says Slavonic).
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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2004, 12:50:11 PM »

Orthodoc,

I want to make it clear that I am not trying to attack the OCA. I merely am defending ROCOR's point of view from what I perceive as (non-malicious) misinformation, and to some extent that means espousing ROCOR's position that the OCA split from it prematurely.  I make no value judgment on what the OCA did as I was not even alive at that time. I just want that to be clear to you and everyone else Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2004, 08:21:56 PM »

Concerning the canonicity of ROCOR and its "irregular status", the Serbian Orthodox Church is in communion with both the MP and ROCOR.  I'm not sure if that helps or just confuses the issue.
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« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2004, 10:14:28 PM »

ROCiE has about 3 members Wink  Well seriously, maybe a couple hundred, max.  Don't be fooled by "online schisms" as I call them.

LOL Cheesy  I've always observed that the actual number of True Russian/Greek Orthodox in real life is indirectly proportional to the decibels they raise online.  I think all three of those ROCiE members are the bishops Cheesy

Maybe you should ask yourself if the MP has really completely cleaned up its act? I hope it has but am not totally convinced.
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What do you mean?  In my irrelevant catechumen opinion, I've found it perplexing that the Sergianism issue gets the attention it does among the American cadre of Russian Orthodox.  The post-Petrine Russian Church was totally in bed with the government for a few hundred years, even having the Patriarchate abolished during this time, and yet I'm surprised at the number of anti-Sergianism/pro-Romanov monarchists.  The Russian government today is not atheist nor is it anti-ROC; on the contrary, it's helped the Church out.  I'd go so far as to say this is the most free Orthodox Church in Russia since before Czar Peter took over the Church.  So I'd be interested in what you mean when you say you're not convinced the MP has cleaned up its act.
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« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2004, 11:44:45 PM »

Strelets,

I don't think Sergianism is the main issue as I am quick to forgive those who compromised in a persecution.  I know I could not handle persecution.

My issue is with ecumenism. The MP is in the WCC and has had bishops declare false ecclesiastical opinions (such as Met Nikodem).  That is what I am concerned about.

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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2004, 09:37:58 AM »

But the Serbian and Jerusalem Patriarchates are in the WCC, and ROCOR shares communion with them.

[note: I've got major problems with the WCC as well, so I'm not defending this Holly Hobby club in any manner.]
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2004, 10:09:56 AM »

Would people for once remember that ROCOR is not just on the North American Continent, but on 5 others as well?  It can't become part of the OCA because the OCA is only in America (the name, it's all in the name).  OCA is no longer a Russian church. ROCOR still considers itself Russian.  It's Russian OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA.  It exists to provide RUSSIANS with spirtual guidence OUTSIDE of Russia.  It picks up converts along the way, but it is still RUSSIAN.  For gosh sakes, people read the signs of resteraunts & stores before they walk in, why don't they read the signs on churches?HuhHuhHuh?  It seems everyone wants to integrate ROCOR into the OCA & forget about it, neat & clean.  The only thing possible right now is for it to be an independent Russian church organization outside of Russia, and not hooked up to any other church administratively, only communion.  Integration into local churches might come later, but at the moment, it can't happen.  Financially, administratively, it just is not a good idea.  It's not just politics & pride, though granted there is some of that.  I find it somewhat insulting that most people just write off ROCOR as a non-entity, just a bit of flour that needs to be kneaded into that nebulous mound of dough that is World Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2004, 12:15:28 PM »

Ania,

You'll have to forgive the Americans for talking among themselves.  What most of us are wondering out loud is how the administrative situation will pan out in North America if ROCOR and the MP resume full communion.  When the MP recognized the autocephaly status of the OCA, the MP signed the agreement where they would only maintain a token presence in North America.  That's what autocephaly means.  So what happens to ROCOR in North America?  They're building missions and maintaining a presence that is more than minimal.  It can be resolved by the OCA waiving the token presence issue, and that's probably what would happen.  But it won't happen if ROCOR decides it will hook back up with the MP on the condition that they can maintain a hostile attitude towards the OCA and other jurisdictions.  From what I've read and heard, this is one of the sticking points behind the scenes.  Some members of ROCOR are saying they will agree to restoration of ties to Moscow, IF they can continue walling themselves off from everyone else.  This doesn't make sense, and it furthers my own theory that *ROCOR's problem isn't "false" ecumenicism, but it's only about the calendar, since they commune with jurisdictions who are members of the WCC as long as they use the Julian Calendar.  I've even read that ROCOR has taken grant money from the WCC in the past, so I'm having difficulty taking their concerns about ecumenicism seriously.

*[size=0]My reference here is to elements within ROCOR, and not necessarily to the group as a whole[/size]
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« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2004, 12:34:16 PM »

Strelets,

The situation with the JP and Serbia is a complex one. Certainly ROCOR has maintained communion with them, but it kind of sent mixed signals when it joined with the Greek Old Calendarists.  ROCOR mainted a kind of dual communion with people of two different ecclesiastical minds.  Maybe that's due to underlying forces behind the scenes. I don't know.

What I do know is that for me, there is a difference with being in communion with Serbia which is in the WCC, and being a PART OF the MP which is in the WCC.  In the latter scenario, the ROCOR might be forced to sit with MP bishops at WCC council meetings or something!  Or the MP might agree to some ecumenistic statement. With Serbia, the ROCOR could cease communion easily if they did that. But if ROCOR becomes one with the MP, what then?

Jerusalem is an interesting case. It stopped participating in the WCC in the 1990's, but remained a member.  It now sends two bishops as representatives but does not participate in the types of joint declarations that aren't worth the paper upon which they are written. Only time will tell where the JP is headed in that regard.

Anastasios
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Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
penelope
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« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2004, 03:48:10 PM »

OCA is no longer a Russian church. ROCOR still considers itself Russian.  It's Russian OUTSIDE OF RUSSIA.  It exists to provide RUSSIANS with spirtual guidence OUTSIDE of Russia.  It picks up converts along the way, but it is still RUSSIAN.  For gosh sakes, people read the signs of resteraunts & stores before they walk in, why don't they read the signs on churches?HuhHuhHuh?  It seems everyone wants to integrate ROCOR into the OCA & forget about it, neat & clean.  The only thing possible right now is for it to be an independent Russian church organization outside of Russia, and not hooked up to any other church administratively, only communion.  Integration into local churches might come later, but at the moment, it can't happen.  Financially, administratively, it just is not a good idea.  It's not just politics & pride, though granted there is some of that.  I find it somewhat insulting that most people just write off ROCOR as a non-entity, just a bit of flour that needs to be kneaded into that nebulous mound of dough that is World Orthodoxy.  
But don't you think that this is philetism?
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« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2004, 04:25:44 PM »

But don't you think that this is philetism?

Now, Now. Let's not piss off the GOA. Everyone knows the Greeks have first dibs on the use of philetism in the USA  Smiley
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« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2004, 09:22:54 PM »

Now, Now. Let's not piss off the GOA. Everyone knows the Greeks have first dibs on the use of philetism in the USA  Smiley

...and, of course, loving comments such as the above truly impress those very "Greeks" with some barely converted newbies.   :-

Demetri
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« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2004, 09:05:13 AM »

The decision of the Bishops' Council of the Russian Orthodox Church on the Relations with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
The Bishops' Council of the Russian Orthodox Church 3-8 October 2004

Having heard and discussed the report of His Holiness Patriarch Alexy of Moscow and All Russia, the report of Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, Chairman of the Department for External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate, and the report of Archbishop Innokenty of Korsun on the successfully developing dialogue with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, the Bishops' Council thanked the All-Gracious Lord for the considerable improvement of relations with our brothers and unanimously resolved:

 

1.      that the steps in the direction of overcoming divisions, which have existed in the body of the Russian Orthodox Church for decades, be considered exceptionally important;

2.      that satisfaction be expressed with the visits of the official delegations of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia to the Russian Orthodox Church, including the delegation headed by the first hierarch His Eminence Metropolitan Laurus, as well as with the successful common work of the Commission of the Moscow Patriarchate on  Dialogue with the Russian Church Outside of Russia and the Commission of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia on Discussions with the Moscow Patriarchate;

3.      that the contents of the documents prepared by the Commissions and presented to the Council for consideration be approved;

4.      that after the completion of the Commissions's work and bilateral agreement of the prepared documents the Holy Synod be charged with a canonical act by which the Eucharistic communion and unity be restored on the basis of the adopted decisions.

 
Patriarch Alexy of Moscow and All Russia

 

Members of the Presidium of the Council:

Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev and All Ukraine

Metropolitan Vladimir of St.Petersburg and Ladoga

Metropolitan Philaret of Minsk and Slutsk, Patriarchal Exarch of All Byelarus

Metropolitan Juvenaly of Krutitsy and Kolomna

Metropolitan Kirill of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, Chairman of the Department for External Church Relations

Metropolitan Vladimir of Kishinev and All Moldova

Metropolitan Vladimir of Tashkent and Central Asia

Archbishop Anastasy of Kazan and Tatarstan

Archbishop Sergy of Samara and Syzran

Archbishop Dimitry of Vitebsk and Orsha

Bishop Daniel and Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk and the Kuriles

Metropolitan Clement of Kaluga and Borovsk, Chancellor of the Moscow Patriarchate

http://www.mospat.ru/text/e_news/id/7814.html

______________________________________

Hopefully this is not a redundant post.  Now, the question is: What's in those documents?  Wink

Demetri
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« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2004, 09:07:45 AM »

Penelope,

Speaking as someone who is decidedly American and yet ROCOR, I do not think it is phyletism, no. Smiley
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« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2004, 10:09:37 AM »

...and, of course, loving comments such as the above truly impress those very "Greeks" with some barely converted newbies.   :-

The time has passed for talk and reasoning with these people - it is time for war withing the GOA. It is time for Americans (not those who still consider themselves Greek-Americans) to assert their control over the GOA.
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« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2004, 11:00:56 AM »

The time has passed for talk and reasoning with these people - it is time for war withing the GOA. It is time for Americans (not those who still consider themselves Greek-Americans) to assert their control over the GOA.

Well, well, TomΣ, has Mrs. TomΣ's pregnancy reached the stage that you are, perhaps, a bit frustrated? Cheesy
Perhaps you need to find another jurisdiction? I'm certain my Serbian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Carpatho-Rus, and ROCOR friends would welcome you.
Or perhaps, with anastasios's permission, I could PM you a forum populated with like-minded delusional "Orthodox" activists where you can wail away your discontent. Of course, there you must be prepared to defend your scandolous statements with real clerics, priests and bishops.
 
Demetri

{Edit for grammatical error - not that that helped}
« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 08:45:48 PM by +æ-ü+¦-â-ä+++¦+++«-é » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2004, 11:18:57 AM »

Perhaps you need to find another jurisdiction? I'm certain my Serbian, Romanian, Ukrainian, Carpatho-Rus, and ROCOR friends would welcome you.

Running away will not solve the problem. Besides, they are hung up on the ethnicity issue just like the Greeks.
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« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2004, 11:41:29 AM »

Running away will not solve the problem. Besides, they are hung up on the ethnicity issue just like the Greeks.

Duh...EXACTLY.
All I read here from you lately is complaints. You have any solutions for 'your' problems?

Demetri
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« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2004, 11:48:46 AM »

Duh...EXACTLY.

But does that mean that we don't try to change that?

All I read here from you lately is complaints.

Alethia.

You have any solutions for 'your' problems?

Well, first of all you know as well as I that these issues are not just something I have a problem with.

But, No. I do not have a solution. "It is hard to kick against..."
« Last Edit: October 09, 2004, 11:52:35 AM by Tom+ú » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2004, 12:28:07 PM »

Quote
When the MP recognized the autocephaly status of the OCA, the MP signed the agreement where they would only maintain a token presence in North America.

Dcn. Nicholas once posted information on the Euphrosynos Cafe that seemed to demonstrate that not only has the MP not followed this agreement, but they've actually expanded quite a bit. Can anyone confirm or refute that?
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Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2004, 02:49:34 PM »

http://www.pravoslavie.ru/cgi-bin/print.cgi?item=2r041013164327

Rapproachement with Church Abroad Will Help with Pastoral Care of Our
Compatriots

Moscow, October 13, 2004

The Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia, Alexy, believes that reunion
of the Russian Church will help to develop pastoral care for the
considerably increased flock of our compatriots living -- temporarily
or permanently-- in the USA.  This is mentioned in the message of the
head of the Russian Orthodox Church to participants of the
anniversary assembly of patriarchal parishes in America -- the
representation of the Moscow Patriarchate in the USA, reports ITAR-
TASS.

Patriarch Alexy expressed the hope that "rapproachement with Russian
Church Abroad" will not be without good consequences in the USA for
the development of pastoral interaction and common witness of the
spiritual legacy of Russian Orthodoxy.  The patriarch is convinced
that it is necessary to carry out this service in the spirit of
brotherly interaction and mutual understanding with the Orthodox
Church in America [and] other Orthodox jurisdictions.

The Patriarch also noted the significant contribution of the
Representation to external church activity, emphasizing, that
patriarchal parishes in the USA "reliably witness to the position of
the Russian Orthodox Church on important contemporary issues before
Orthodox brethren, heterodox Christians, people of other religious
confessions, government authorities and the mass media in their
country of residence."


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