OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 23, 2014, 11:38:10 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: HH Pope Shenouda on Mission in North America  (Read 924 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« on: February 19, 2012, 11:14:37 PM »

It's always refreshing to hear His Holiness of a vision of mission in North America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Mfcpe7V7MZI

Elsewhere, in a fuller version of this video, he complains that in North America (specifically the Coptic Church), we teach, but we don't preach, that is, we teach our own Copts the faith, but we do not spread out and share the faith with other non-Copts and non-Orthodox.  And in a very interesting manner, he says that all that matters is the Orthodox faith, and allow the people you are preaching to to develop their own culture, their own rites, their own hymns within the framework of the Orthodox faith.  It is as if His Holiness is asking us to start up an American Orthodox Church.

May His dream and vision be brought to fruition.

(full version:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwNpdyZuznk)
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 01:42:24 AM »

It's always refreshing to hear His Holiness of a vision of mission in North America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Mfcpe7V7MZI

Elsewhere, in a fuller version of this video, he complains that in North America (specifically the Coptic Church), we teach, but we don't preach, that is, we teach our own Copts the faith, but we do not spread out and share the faith with other non-Copts and non-Orthodox.  And in a very interesting manner, he says that all that matters is the Orthodox faith, and allow the people you are preaching to to develop their own culture, their own rites, their own hymns within the framework of the Orthodox faith.  It is as if His Holiness is asking us to start up an American Orthodox Church.

May His dream and vision be brought to fruition.

(full version:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwNpdyZuznk)
Yes! It's refreshing to see that our Hierarchs are placing emphasis on the Orthodox faith itself and not just the culture which it is linked to.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 01:42:48 AM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
gypsyjohn
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: british orthodox
Jurisdiction: british gypsy
Posts: 32


« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2014, 04:13:03 PM »

When is the orthodox church going to evangelise to the gypsy\traveller commiunty in the uk?
Logged
Yurysprudentsiya
Section Moderator
OC.net guru
*****
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA, although in my heart I will always remain a loving son of the UOC-USA
Posts: 1,445


« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2014, 04:26:14 PM »

It's always refreshing to hear His Holiness of a vision of mission in North America:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Mfcpe7V7MZI

Elsewhere, in a fuller version of this video, he complains that in North America (specifically the Coptic Church), we teach, but we don't preach, that is, we teach our own Copts the faith, but we do not spread out and share the faith with other non-Copts and non-Orthodox.  And in a very interesting manner, he says that all that matters is the Orthodox faith, and allow the people you are preaching to to develop their own culture, their own rites, their own hymns within the framework of the Orthodox faith.  It is as if His Holiness is asking us to start up an American Orthodox Church.

May His dream and vision be brought to fruition.

(full version:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwNpdyZuznk)

May it succeed indeed.  And perhaps you will be the pioneers in this to which we will join as part of a general reunion. 
Logged
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2014, 07:12:20 PM »

And in a very interesting manner, he says that all that matters is the Orthodox faith, and allow the people you are preaching to to develop their own culture, their own rites, their own hymns within the framework of the Orthodox faith.  It is as if His Holiness is asking us to start up an American Orthodox Church.

May His dream and vision be brought to fruition.

Amen.  I would love to see an American church Orthodox in Faith and practice, like the British Orthodox Church.  May God bring His Holiness' vision to fruition, and may He halt and reverse the efforts of those who would pervert and distort this vision to bring heterodox practices into the Church under the guise of acculturation.

When is the orthodox church going to evangelise to the gypsy\traveller commiunty in the uk?

A great question.  What does the BOC say?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2014, 07:23:12 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2014, 08:53:40 PM »

It might to be interesting to discuss what this American Church might look like.  How do you envision its Liturgy?  What would be "American" about it other than the use of the English language?  Would it utilize a Western Rite?  If so, what would form the basis of it?  Could it use a modified Coptic Rite?  A modified Byzantine Rite? 

On various message boards, I've seen people attempt to distort H.H. Pope Shenouda III's words in the above video into an endorsement for their penchant for mega-church Protestantism.  It's clear that wasn't what His Holiness was saying at all, but given that such an element exists, we must be very careful that mission in North America isn't hijacked to promote that sort of agenda.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,226



« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2014, 10:40:30 PM »

When is the orthodox church going to evangelise to the gypsy\traveller commiunty in the uk?
If you're Orthodox, why not let it start with you?

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2014, 02:27:03 AM »

It might to be interesting to discuss what this American Church might look like.  How do you envision its Liturgy?  What would be "American" about it other than the use of the English language?  Would it utilize a Western Rite?  If so, what would form the basis of it?  Could it use a modified Coptic Rite?  A modified Byzantine Rite? 

On various message boards, I've seen people attempt to distort H.H. Pope Shenouda III's words in the above video into an endorsement for their penchant for mega-church Protestantism.  It's clear that wasn't what His Holiness was saying at all, but given that such an element exists, we must be very careful that mission in North America isn't hijacked to promote that sort of agenda.
there's a discussion elsewhere between me and dzheremi on the discussion of "American Orthodoxy".
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2014, 09:04:28 AM »

And typing American Orthodoxy into our wonderful search engine reveals only this:

there's a discussion elsewhere between me and dzheremi on the discussion of "American Orthodoxy".
 

Grin

If it's not too much trouble, could you provide a link?
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2014, 10:20:20 AM »

Ya, I'm having trouble remembering where...lol
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2014, 10:29:36 AM »

No problem.  This is just a subject I'm very interested in.  For years, I've prayed for the Coptic Church to establish missions in North America, but I think it's very important that they're established the right way, that is, with an Orthodox approach to mission and reflecting an Orthodox approach to worship.  It still boggles my mind that for some in our Church, mission = aping the Evangelicals.  Embarrassed
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2014, 10:53:56 AM »

I found two relevant discussions I was in that is of interest:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42648.0.html
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,43393.0.html

The latter was particularly edifying in discussing musical rites.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2014, 11:45:46 AM »

A lot to sift through, but it seems it was the usual stuff.  Everyone thinks we need some sort of evangelisitic movement, but no one is clear on precisely what form it will or should take.  I tend to agree with dzheremi's assessment that all we need in North America is the Coptic Liturgy with more English, since there's no such thing as a "generic American" and we don't want to segregate and fracture the Church along strictly ethnic lines.  I realize that others would contend that this is not so, and that a more "American" rite (whatever that means) would be more helpful.  As I've always said, I'm open to that, so long as it entails a reverential, liturgical, and strictly Orthodox approach to worship.  Pop music has no place in Orthodox worship of any sort.  Stavro, as usual, was dead on point with his assessment of how quarters of the "mission" movement in North America has been perverted by some elements desirous of Protestantizing the Church.  It's a shame his posts get kicked into the dungeon of the private fora.  His perspective, if articulated in a harsh way sometimes, is a valid one and needs to be heard.  And he's right that these churches don't attract more or less Westerners or Coptic youth.)  It's a shame that these two subjects can't be uncoupled, and that when discussing mission we inevitably have to discuss certain parishes that have gone off the rails in asserting that The meeting cultural needs in North America means adopting Protestant style pop-"worship".  It does not.  It's to the point that some clergy and servants engaged in evangelism don't even want to use the term "mission" because they don't want to be associated in the minds of the people with the elements that Stavro usually names and I will not.  (We need to take the term back and get to work.

Thanks for taking the time to find the threads, Mina.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 11:52:59 AM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2014, 11:51:44 AM »

A lot to sift through, but it seems it was the usual stuff.  Everyone thinks we need some sort of evangelisitic movement, but no one is clear on precisely what form it will or should take.  I tend to agree with dzheremi's assessment that all we need in North America is the Coptic Liturgy with more English, since there's no such thing as a "generic American" and we don't want to segregate and fracture the Church along strictly ethnic lines.  I realize that others would contend that this is not so, and that a more "American" rite (whatever that means) would be more helpful.  As I've always said, I'm open to that, so long as it entails a reverential, liturgical, and strictly Orthodox approach to worship.  Pop music has no place in Orthodox worship of any sort.  Stavro, as usual, was dead on point with his assessment of how elements of the "mission" movement in North America has been perverted by some elements desirous of Protestantizing the Church.  It's a shame that these two subjects can't be uncoupled, and that when discussing mission we inevitably have to discuss certain parishes that have gone off the rails in asserting that The meeting cultural needs in North America means adopting Protestant style pop-"worship".  It does not.  It's to the point that some clergy and servants engaged in evangelism don't even want to use the term "mission" because they don't want to be associated in the minds of the people with the elements that Stavro usually names and I will not.  We need to take the term back and get to work.


All good words, but people will then ask you, what is a "reverential, liturgical, and strictly Orthodox approach?"  The question I asked is how did our sister churches become "Latin rite, Armenian rite, Ethiopic rite, Coptic rite, Syriac rite, etc."?  This question has yet to be answered.  If we don't answer this question, you will get a lot of people engaging in Protestant style pop-worship.  Rather than condemning the problems happening, how can we avoid this again?  What is the proper approach?
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2014, 12:11:51 PM »

Mina, it's honestly not that hard to answer any of those questions and thwart those who would use the diversity of Oriental Orthodox liturgical practice as a smokescreen for including certain forms of worship antithetical to Orthodoxy into the life of the Church.  In fact, it's already been done.  I have to do something at work right now, but as soon as I return, I'm confidant that I can address all you've asked.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2014, 02:42:27 PM »

Mina, it's honestly not that hard to answer any of those questions and thwart those who would use the diversity of Oriental Orthodox liturgical practice as a smokescreen for including certain forms of worship antithetical to Orthodoxy into the life of the Church.  In fact, it's already been done.  I have to do something at work right now, but as soon as I return, I'm confidant that I can address all you've asked.
I don't mean to use it as a smokescreen, but as an opportunity that we be ready to answer back at some of the challenging questions that have been posed to me, questions which I could not answer satisfactorily because I feel it requires a historical understanding of the evolution of liturgical rites into the various developments we have today.  I admit that I do not know enough, and I admit that some of the approaches seem to be erroneous, but I am of no authority to comprehend what is right and what is wrong in this approach.  Looking forward to your response.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2014, 03:16:48 PM »

I don't mean to use it as a smokescreen, but as an opportunity that we be ready to answer back at some of the challenging questions that have been posed to me, questions which I could not answer satisfactorily because I feel it requires a historical understanding of the evolution of liturgical rites into the various developments we have today.  I admit that I do not know enough, and I admit that some of the approaches seem to be erroneous, but I am of no authority to comprehend what is right and what is wrong in this approach.  Looking forward to your response.

Forgive me, Mina!  I by no means meant to imply that you were one of those who used the liturgical diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Churches to obfusticate on this issue.  Certainly not!  But such persons do exist.  Unfortunately, there are those who refuse to accept the correction of the bishops because they have become attached to their errors and don't want to give them up.  For example, people who love Protestant songs and materials always cite H.G. Anba Antonious Marcos and the work he does in Africa, allowing the various African tribes to contextualize the liturgy within their culture, to justify themselves.  But Anba Antonious is one of the bishops who is part of investigating Protestant influenced churches in the US and stated that what was going on there and what is going on in Africa were two different phenomena.  He stated clearly that allowing for cultural contextualization does not entail accepting practices rooted in heterodox theology - like so-called "praise & worship" - and that he was always very careful to distinguish between the two in the work in Africa.  But they keep citing him anyway!  Likewise with the video you posted of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III.  I was at the Maqar for that talk.  It was clear to all then - and it is clear watching the video - that His Holiness wasn't talking about including Evangelical or Charismatic songs in our worship, but in defiance of reality people continue to assert that is precisely what he meant. 

As to the sister churches, within the Oriental Orthodox Communion there is a great deal of liturgical diversity, but the same ethos and approach to worship is preserved in each tradition.  The same should be true of any new compositions we create as a part of our corporate worship.  Of course the substance of the liturgy was allowed to make itself incarnate within each particular culture - how this happened in each context could be the subject of a set of books - but not every part of the receiving culture was acceptable for baptism into Orthodox practice.  For example, the Apostles eschewed the ecstatic fits of the Delphic oracles when baptizing Greek culture (akin to the practices of modern Charismatism and Pentecostalism) and the use of non-percussive instruments that were not used merely to keep the beat.  We have to use discernment here.

As Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick says:

Quote
Historically, Christian worship, although in some ways shaped by human culture (Christian liturgical worship is actually a rather vast ‘kaleidoscope’), is not actually a product of human culture. That phenomenon doesn’t happen until the radical break made from liturgical worship by the revivalist traditions of Protestantism. Rather, liturgical Christian worship is something actually given by Christ to the Apostles (the reason He appeared to James, as mentioned by St. Paul, giving us the earliest version of the Liturgy of St. James). The Apostles passed on liturgical worship to their disciples, who in turn passed it on to the next generation, and so on. Thus, we have a form of worship that was actually practiced by the Apostles themselves, who were given the authority to govern the Church by the God-man Jesus Christ.
 
Centuries later, a relatively small proportion of Christians decide to break with nearly two millennia of unbroken liturgical worship history and make up something almost entirely new. How is that actually warranted either in the Scripture or in subsequent Christian history?
 
The question really is not ‘denigration,’ but rather a serious engagement with what is right. Our personal opinions, preferences and tastes are not really that important. What is important is that we are joined to what Christ gave the Apostles.
 
I myself was raised in churches where ‘contemporary’ music was the norm, but in reading Christian history, I discovered that that was an aberration, that the Apostles and their disciples worshiped liturgically with a worship life centered on the Eucharist, not on sermons (though of course they had them, but not at the center). And once I learned that, I realized that I could not remain in what is, historically speaking, a deviation from the norm that Christ Himself set.
 
Yes, God is bigger than any kind of worship that we can concoct, but we are not bigger than the worship He Himself has given.


http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/02/26/god-is-much-bigger-than-your-style-of-worship-or-mine/

The question then becomes, does any of this preclude the possibility of the development of an authentically Western expression of the Orthodox Christian Faith?  The answer is, of course not.  But the matter of Eastern Christians making their Faith relevant in a Western cultural context cannot and should not involve adopting the trappings and musical expressions of heterodox denominations, which are themselves merely manifestations of objectionable heterodox theology.  Instead, the liturgies and hymnographies of Orthodox Christians in the West should be entirely reflective of an Orthodox worldview, ethos, and approach to worship, as exemplified by the various Western Rite Orthodox churches which already exist in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 03:28:30 PM by Antonious Nikolas » Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Father Peter
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2014, 05:01:57 PM »

I thought we had already agreed what an American Orthodox worship culture should look like?
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Severian
God save Egypt, Syria & Iraq
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Christians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2014, 05:14:52 PM »

I would do anything to see video clips from this parish's services.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 05:15:03 PM by Severian » Logged

On hiatus from posting. Forgive me if my posts have lacked humility or tact. Note that some of my older posts -especially those prior to late 2012- may not reflect my current views. In the meantime, please pray for my sinful self as I am in a critical and unsure juncture in my life. Thank you.
xOrthodox4Christx
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Protestant (Inquirer)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Christianity
Posts: 2,960



« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2014, 05:18:54 PM »

I don't mean to use it as a smokescreen, but as an opportunity that we be ready to answer back at some of the challenging questions that have been posed to me, questions which I could not answer satisfactorily because I feel it requires a historical understanding of the evolution of liturgical rites into the various developments we have today.  I admit that I do not know enough, and I admit that some of the approaches seem to be erroneous, but I am of no authority to comprehend what is right and what is wrong in this approach.  Looking forward to your response.

Forgive me, Mina!  I by no means meant to imply that you were one of those who used the liturgical diversity of the Oriental Orthodox Churches to obfusticate on this issue.  Certainly not!  But such persons do exist.  Unfortunately, there are those who refuse to accept the correction of the bishops because they have become attached to their errors and don't want to give them up.  For example, people who love Protestant songs and materials always cite H.G. Anba Antonious Marcos and the work he does in Africa, allowing the various African tribes to contextualize the liturgy within their culture, to justify themselves.  But Anba Antonious is one of the bishops who is part of investigating Protestant influenced churches in the US and stated that what was going on there and what is going on in Africa were two different phenomena.  He stated clearly that allowing for cultural contextualization does not entail accepting practices rooted in heterodox theology - like so-called "praise & worship" - and that he was always very careful to distinguish between the two in the work in Africa.  But they keep citing him anyway!  Likewise with the video you posted of His Holiness Pope Shenouda III.  I was at the Maqar for that talk.  It was clear to all then - and it is clear watching the video - that His Holiness wasn't talking about including Evangelical or Charismatic songs in our worship, but in defiance of reality people continue to assert that is precisely what he meant. 

As to the sister churches, within the Oriental Orthodox Communion there is a great deal of liturgical diversity, but the same ethos and approach to worship is preserved in each tradition.  The same should be true of any new compositions we create as a part of our corporate worship.  Of course the substance of the liturgy was allowed to make itself incarnate within each particular culture - how this happened in each context could be the subject of a set of books - but not every part of the receiving culture was acceptable for baptism into Orthodox practice.  For example, the Apostles eschewed the ecstatic fits of the Delphic oracles when baptizing Greek culture (akin to the practices of modern Charismatism and Pentecostalism) and the use of non-percussive instruments that were not used merely to keep the beat.  We have to use discernment here.

As Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick says:

Quote
Historically, Christian worship, although in some ways shaped by human culture (Christian liturgical worship is actually a rather vast ‘kaleidoscope’), is not actually a product of human culture. That phenomenon doesn’t happen until the radical break made from liturgical worship by the revivalist traditions of Protestantism. Rather, liturgical Christian worship is something actually given by Christ to the Apostles (the reason He appeared to James, as mentioned by St. Paul, giving us the earliest version of the Liturgy of St. James). The Apostles passed on liturgical worship to their disciples, who in turn passed it on to the next generation, and so on. Thus, we have a form of worship that was actually practiced by the Apostles themselves, who were given the authority to govern the Church by the God-man Jesus Christ.
 
Centuries later, a relatively small proportion of Christians decide to break with nearly two millennia of unbroken liturgical worship history and make up something almost entirely new. How is that actually warranted either in the Scripture or in subsequent Christian history?
 
The question really is not ‘denigration,’ but rather a serious engagement with what is right. Our personal opinions, preferences and tastes are not really that important. What is important is that we are joined to what Christ gave the Apostles.
 
I myself was raised in churches where ‘contemporary’ music was the norm, but in reading Christian history, I discovered that that was an aberration, that the Apostles and their disciples worshiped liturgically with a worship life centered on the Eucharist, not on sermons (though of course they had them, but not at the center). And once I learned that, I realized that I could not remain in what is, historically speaking, a deviation from the norm that Christ Himself set.
 
Yes, God is bigger than any kind of worship that we can concoct, but we are not bigger than the worship He Himself has given.


http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/02/26/god-is-much-bigger-than-your-style-of-worship-or-mine/

The question then becomes, does any of this preclude the possibility of the development of an authentically Western expression of the Orthodox Christian Faith?  The answer is, of course not.  But the matter of Eastern Christians making their Faith relevant in a Western cultural context cannot and should not involve adopting the trappings and musical expressions of heterodox denominations, which are themselves merely manifestations of objectionable heterodox theology.  Instead, the liturgies and hymnographies of Orthodox Christians in the West should be entirely reflective of an Orthodox worldview, ethos, and approach to worship, as exemplified by the various Western Rite Orthodox churches which already exist in Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy.

Indeed, it should reflect how the Eastern Church went Westward and made Western tradition conform to Orthodox standards. Like in the good 'ole 1st century.
Logged

“We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and our banks destroy the economy.” (Chris Hedges)
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2014, 06:04:28 PM »

I thought we had already agreed what an American Orthodox worship culture should look like?

We are in full agreement, Father.  Unfortunately, there are others who do not share this vision and seek to emulate the Evangelical mega-church model.  I'm hoping that more episcopal oversight will put a stop to what's been going on in that regard.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Regnare
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Inquiring into Orthodoxy
Posts: 265



« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2014, 06:48:18 PM »

It might also be argued, in terms of Western/American Orthodox worship culture, that there is a difference between the culture of peoples who have never known the Faith and whose spirituality consists of an attempt to reach out to the unknown God, and the culture of peoples who have known and rejected the Faith and whose spirituality is based in conscious heresy. The second should be handled much more carefully than the first.
Logged

"To believe [the Paraclete] when you wish it, and then disbelieve him when you wish it, is to believe nobody but yourself." --St. Augustine, Contra Faustum XXXII.16
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2014, 07:35:48 PM »

It might also be argued, in terms of Western/American Orthodox worship culture, that there is a difference between the culture of peoples who have never known the Faith and whose spirituality consists of an attempt to reach out to the unknown God, and the culture of peoples who have known and rejected the Faith and whose spirituality is based in conscious heresy. The second should be handled much more carefully than the first.

A very good point.  To incorporate the worship practices of the latter group into the life of the Church would be to embrace the heresies that inform them.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Online Online

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 10,888


Strengthen O Lord the work of Your hands(Is 19:25)


WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2014, 09:07:24 PM »

You know what we need? A convention to address these concerns in more detail.  We need to invite people of all Orthodox professions and missions to teach us the history and approach of allowing a rite to develop with a specific culture when the time is right.  I'm willing to pitch in money to fund the traveling fees for speakers.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 09:08:14 PM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2014, 09:26:26 PM »

You know what we need? A convention to address these concerns in more detail.  We need to invite people of all Orthodox professions and missions to teach us the history and approach of allowing a rite to develop with a specific culture when the time is right.  I'm willing to pitch in money to fund the traveling fees for speakers.

That would be awesome.  PM me.  I'm serious, let's make this happen.
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Father Peter
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2014, 02:26:31 PM »

It's an interesting idea
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2014, 05:22:16 PM »

It's an interesting idea

Of course we'd want you, Father, as a speaker.  Smiley
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Father Peter
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2014, 05:31:04 PM »

Drop me an email. I have something to send you
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
Antonious Nikolas
Orthodox Christian, Miaphysite, Anagnostis
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox
Posts: 1,796


Saint Nicholas the Wonderworker, Bishop of Myra


WWW
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2014, 05:52:31 PM »

Will do!
Logged

“Nothing is better than to realize one’s weakness and ignorance and nothing is worse than not to be aware of them.” - St. Peter of Damascus
Tags: missions 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.11 seconds with 55 queries.