Author Topic: "Clubs of Christ"  (Read 1783 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
"Clubs of Christ"
« on: February 15, 2012, 06:48:23 PM »
I was having a discussion with my medieval history professor about the Early Christian perspective on violence. When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs. I was dumbfounded at both of these comments but kept it to myself out of respect for the guy (although I kind of wish I hadn't). Any thoughts?

P.S. Mods- if I didn't post this in the appropriate forum please move it to wherever you feel is best.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,108
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 06:49:32 PM »
Well, I know that there was some kind of monastic mafia in Alexandria that would do vicious and horrible things.

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 08:02:04 PM »
Interestingly, he also apparently rejects rationalism, citing its roots as a theological (Scholastic) movement as well as Nietzschean arguments. I'm pretty sure he's one of those rare genuine nihilists. Or not, because he still views violence as wrong.  ???
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 08:09:35 PM by NightOwl »

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 10:51:13 PM »
I was having a discussion with my medieval history professor about the Early Christian perspective on violence. When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs. I was dumbfounded at both of these comments but kept it to myself out of respect for the guy (although I kind of wish I hadn't). Any thoughts?

P.S. Mods- if I didn't post this in the appropriate forum please move it to wherever you feel is best.

A.) Certainly not the Desert Fathers. Of course, there's always some rag-tag group claiming to be something they're not, especially in Church history. He should judge us by our saints, not our heretics.

B.) Some martyrs sought out violence for themselves to become martyrs, that is true. However, they never condoned what society was doing to them (actually, the opposite...they condemned them!), they simply wanted to give their lives for Christ.

Interestingly, he also apparently rejects rationalism, citing its roots as a theological (Scholastic) movement as well as Nietzschean arguments. I'm pretty sure he's one of those rare genuine nihilists. Or not, because he still views violence as wrong.  ???

I reject rationalism. It is a theological, scholastic movement...and a bad one. Nietzsche is a good philosopher. Obviously I disagree with a lot of points he arrives at personally (and definitely religiously) but I'd say the same of Hobbs, Hume and a host of others. They're still great philosophers.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 10:51:27 PM by Benjamin the Red »
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 11:08:20 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 11:12:39 PM by NightOwl »

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 11:43:04 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.

If he doesn't understand the different philosophical and cultural contexts of various people groups throughout history, he has no place in a history class...at least not teaching one.

As far as a PhD from Princeton...I've come to believe that letters after your name are just that, only letters. I've met some of the most learned people who didn't have a degree. I've also met some of the most idiotic people who have a string of letters attached to their name.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 11:56:04 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.

If he doesn't understand the different philosophical and cultural contexts of various people groups throughout history, he has no place in a history class...at least not teaching one.

As far as a PhD from Princeton...I've come to believe that letters after your name are just that, only letters. I've met some of the most learned people who didn't have a degree. I've also met some of the most idiotic people who have a string of letters attached to their name.

In this case he more or less pleaded ignorance of Orthodoxy, but I think he's mostly interested in the ability to make universal assertions about Christianity or religion in general. At least half of his lecture on the Crusades was devoted to describing how Christianity in itself facilitates religious violence (accomplished primarily by presenting us with a bunch of random OT verses). In support of his position during our private conversation, he claimed Byzantium likewise idolized warfare as a holy endeavor or something like that.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 12:10:09 AM by NightOwl »

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 12:03:17 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.

If he doesn't understand the different philosophical and cultural contexts of various people groups throughout history, he has no place in a history class...at least not teaching one.

As far as a PhD from Princeton...I've come to believe that letters after your name are just that, only letters. I've met some of the most learned people who didn't have a degree. I've also met some of the most idiotic people who have a string of letters attached to their name.

In this case he more or less pleaded ignorance of Orthodoxy, but I think he's mostly interested in the ability to make universal assertions about Christianity or religion in general. At least half of his lecture on the Crusades was devoted to describing how Christianity in itself facilitates religious violence (accomplished primarily by presenting us with a bunch of random OT verses). In support of his position during our private conversation, he claimed Byzantium likewise idolized warfare as a holy endeavor or something like that.

I think you're probably right. Violence and Christianity is a very deep and difficult subject if one only uses Scripture. When adding the history of the Church to that, it becomes even more cloudy. There was a BIG difference between East and West, since St. Augustine's Just War theory caught on in the West, but it never did in the East. This is was Pope Urban II ran with when he began rallying for the first Crusade in the latter half of the 11th century.

Byzantium was always a mixed bag in itself, as well. The Church, no matter where it is, has a history of denouncing the depravity of those around it (especially when the society identifies itself as "Christian"). This happened very often in Byzantium, and also Russia and many other Christianized places. Because some nobles or generals are bloodthirsty people doesn't mean the Church should be judged as such. For example, I'm sure saints such as Ss. Seraphim of Sarov, Xenia of Petersberg, Sergius of Rodenezh and other luminaries of the Russian land would not agree with anyone who would assess Russian Orthodoxy based off of Ivan the Terrible.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Papist

  • Patriarch of Pontification
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,379
  • An Ideal to Strive Towards
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 12:08:37 PM »

I reject rationalism. It is a theological, scholastic movement...and a bad one. Nietzsche is a good philosopher. Obviously I disagree with a lot of points he arrives at personally (and definitely religiously) but I'd say the same of Hobbs, Hume and a host of others. They're still great philosophers.
False. Rationalism is one of the idealist forms of modern philosophy propogated by thinkers like Descartes. These thinkers are antithetical to true scholastic philosophy as embodied by Aquinas.
My posts no longer forum here.

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,058
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 12:36:14 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.

If he doesn't understand the different philosophical and cultural contexts of various people groups throughout history, he has no place in a history class...at least not teaching one.

As far as a PhD from Princeton...I've come to believe that letters after your name are just that, only letters. I've met some of the most learned people who didn't have a degree. I've also met some of the most idiotic people who have a string of letters attached to their name.

In this case he more or less pleaded ignorance of Orthodoxy, but I think he's mostly interested in the ability to make universal assertions about Christianity or religion in general. At least half of his lecture on the Crusades was devoted to describing how Christianity in itself facilitates religious violence (accomplished primarily by presenting us with a bunch of random OT verses). In support of his position during our private conversation, he claimed Byzantium likewise idolized warfare as a holy endeavor or something like that.
Some history teachers often mix history with their own personal opinions. You should see my teacher when he talks about the medieval church. 
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 12:52:54 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.

If he doesn't understand the different philosophical and cultural contexts of various people groups throughout history, he has no place in a history class...at least not teaching one.

As far as a PhD from Princeton...I've come to believe that letters after your name are just that, only letters. I've met some of the most learned people who didn't have a degree. I've also met some of the most idiotic people who have a string of letters attached to their name.

In this case he more or less pleaded ignorance of Orthodoxy, but I think he's mostly interested in the ability to make universal assertions about Christianity or religion in general. At least half of his lecture on the Crusades was devoted to describing how Christianity in itself facilitates religious violence (accomplished primarily by presenting us with a bunch of random OT verses). In support of his position during our private conversation, he claimed Byzantium likewise idolized warfare as a holy endeavor or something like that.
Some history teachers often mix history with their own personal opinions. You should see my teacher when he talks about the medieval church. 
The worst part is being forced to conform to their train of thought on essays for the sake of a good grade.  :(

Offline Benjamin the Red

  • Recovering Calvinist
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,601
  • Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 01:23:42 PM »

I reject rationalism. It is a theological, scholastic movement...and a bad one. Nietzsche is a good philosopher. Obviously I disagree with a lot of points he arrives at personally (and definitely religiously) but I'd say the same of Hobbs, Hume and a host of others. They're still great philosophers.
False. Rationalism is one of the idealist forms of modern philosophy propogated by thinkers like Descartes. These thinkers are antithetical to true scholastic philosophy as embodied by Aquinas.

I would disagree. Rationalism is an outgrowth of Aquinas' scholasticism. Not a necessarily good one, and I hold Aquinas to be much better than the likes of Descartes and others, but modern rationalism is informed my scholastic philosophy.
"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,492
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 02:47:40 PM »
Well, a little googling shows that "clubs of Christ" isn't a phrase anyone else uses, so if you've quoted him correctly, this is some term he has just made up, either through bad translation or the Academic Legend Process.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,582
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 05:26:15 PM »
I agree. But you're also a Christian, this professor is clearly not. I tried pointing out to him that Orthodoxy wasn't affected by the Scholastic or Reformation movements and therefore didn't undergo a similar theological transformation towards rationalism, but he didn't seem to believe me. It's difficult to get people (even in academia... this guy has a PhD from Princeton I believe) to realize that there is a difference between the rationalistic West and East, or else they refuse to recognize it when it conflicts with their hypotheses.

If he doesn't understand the different philosophical and cultural contexts of various people groups throughout history, he has no place in a history class...at least not teaching one.

As far as a PhD from Princeton...I've come to believe that letters after your name are just that, only letters. I've met some of the most learned people who didn't have a degree. I've also met some of the most idiotic people who have a string of letters attached to their name.

In this case he more or less pleaded ignorance of Orthodoxy, but I think he's mostly interested in the ability to make universal assertions about Christianity or religion in general. At least half of his lecture on the Crusades was devoted to describing how Christianity in itself facilitates religious violence (accomplished primarily by presenting us with a bunch of random OT verses). In support of his position during our private conversation, he claimed Byzantium likewise idolized warfare as a holy endeavor or something like that.
Some history teachers often mix history with their own personal opinions. You should see my teacher when he talks about the medieval church. 
The worst part is being forced to conform to their train of thought on essays for the sake of a good grade.  :(

If he is any good, he will only insist that you demonstrate understanding of his position, not acceptance of them. OTH, he may be a jerk and gig you for not agreeing with him.

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,058
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2012, 05:41:25 PM »
I actually consider myself lucky, since my teacher is actually a pretty nice guy. Most of the time he is capable of teaching in a neutral and beneficial maner. Only when it comes to the matters of religion and especially christianity, I could wish for a little more objective teaching. 
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2012, 05:42:56 PM »
I have to admit, I chuckled at the whole notion.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,582
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South (OCA)
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2012, 05:49:18 PM »
I actually consider myself lucky, since my teacher is actually a pretty nice guy. Most of the time he is capable of teaching in a neutral and beneficial maner. Only when it comes to the matters of religion and especially christianity, I could wish for a little more objective teaching. 

May be he is trying to provoke discussion and some modicum of intellectual exercise. I went to school where many students sucked the life out of the professors because they only cared about grades; no thinking or learning except to regurgitate "knowledge" that was forgotten by the time the subsequent semester started.

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2012, 06:03:22 PM »
A lot of educators have this really juvenile urge to mock Christianity whenever possible. Hell, I go to a Catholic school and that's what half of my history teachers have been like. A friend of mine told me he became agnostic because the teacher of a class we were taking "killed the Catholic Church."
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Ansgar

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,058
  • Keep your mind in hell and do not despair
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2012, 06:18:21 PM »
I actually consider myself lucky, since my teacher is actually a pretty nice guy. Most of the time he is capable of teaching in a neutral and beneficial maner. Only when it comes to the matters of religion and especially christianity, I could wish for a little more objective teaching. 

May be he is trying to provoke discussion and some modicum of intellectual exercise. I went to school where many students sucked the life out of the professors because they only cared about grades; no thinking or learning except to regurgitate "knowledge" that was forgotten by the time the subsequent semester started.
If that's the case, it ain't working very well. The only answers he gets is "the church did it", "the clergy abused the poor" or "the church opressed science and free thought". I am not saying that these things didn't happen but it wouldn't hurt telling about some of the good things the church did.
Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.

-St Silouan the athonite

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2012, 06:39:14 PM »
I've had some professors who foster free-thinking and a multiplicity of perspectives (power to them) and others who believe it's their way or the highway. Unfortunately this one is in the latter group.

Well, a little googling shows that "clubs of Christ" isn't a phrase anyone else uses, so if you've quoted him correctly, this is some term he has just made up, either through bad translation or the Academic Legend Process.
It's a direct quote. What's the Academic Legend Process?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 06:49:32 PM by NightOwl »

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,492
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2012, 07:20:08 PM »
I've had some professors who foster free-thinking and a multiplicity of perspectives (power to them) and others who believe it's their way or the highway. Unfortunately this one is in the latter group.

Well, a little googling shows that "clubs of Christ" isn't a phrase anyone else uses, so if you've quoted him correctly, this is some term he has just made up, either through bad translation or the Academic Legend Process.
It's a direct quote. What's the Academic Legend Process?

It's like the urban legend process except that it involves professors repeating something they thought they read somewhere.

I don't suppose you can press him for a "further reading" citation....

Offline Alveus Lacuna

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,108
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: OCA
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2012, 02:42:09 PM »
If that's the case, it ain't working very well. The only answers he gets is "the church did it", "the clergy abused the poor" or "the church opressed science and free thought". I am not saying that these things didn't happen but it wouldn't hurt telling about some of the good things the church did.

In the middle of a tirade or list of wrongs, I find it helpful if one mentions the Roman Catholic Church's establishment of the university system in Western Europe, which he seems to be enjoying as a professor.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,780
  • PtA's emotion chip
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2012, 02:48:25 PM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions
Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,364
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2012, 04:36:24 PM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions

Have I ever told you how awesome it is that you don't have a life?

Thanks.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2012, 07:31:58 PM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions

Aha, thank you! I'll email the professor that link.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 07:32:56 PM by NightOwl »

Offline Gamliel

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,240
  • ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστον βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of San Francisco
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2012, 07:35:02 PM »
Were those literal wooden clubs, or did the Desert Fathers just invite people to the Hard Rock Cafe? ;)

Offline William

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,354
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2012, 08:51:08 PM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions

I lol'd reading that article:

"Because Jesus had told Peter to put down his sword in the Garden of Gethsemane (John 18:11), the Circumcellions piously avoided bladed weapons and instead opted for the use of blunt clubs, which they called "Israelites." Using their "Israelites", the Circumcellions would attack random travelers on the road, while shouting "Laudate Deum!" ("Praise God!" in Latin.) "
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,780
  • PtA's emotion chip
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2012, 12:49:18 AM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions

Have I ever told you how awesome it is that you don't have a life?

Thanks.

Hey! A comrade in lifelessness sent me this, FOR YOUR INFORMATION...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 12:49:27 AM by NicholasMyra »
Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline Shiny

  • Site Supporter
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,267
  • Paint It Red
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2012, 01:11:29 AM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions
Dude how do you have this much knowledge? I think I found your home:
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline orthonorm

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,364
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2012, 02:19:45 AM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions
Dude how do you have this much knowledge? I think I found your home:


I've actually been there more than I wish. If you like the Baroque and libraries, the world is your oyster.
If you have PMed me, the mods have taken my ability to PM away. Please see my email if you wish to contact me during my time of trial.

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,383
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2012, 02:23:45 AM »
When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs.

Those weren't the Desert Fathers.

They were the Circumcellions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcellions
Dude how do you have this much knowledge? I think I found your home:


I've actually been there more than I wish. If you like the Baroque and libraries, the world is your oyster.
So the next time I order pizza, I'll tell them I want a smoked world on it. :D
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

  • Avowed denominationalist
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,780
  • PtA's emotion chip
    • Hyperdox Herman
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian+Greek
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2012, 04:28:46 AM »
Dude how do you have this much knowledge?
My Lutheran friend introduced me to this one.

"A number of these [Circumcellions], fattened like pheasants, met a young man and offered him a drawn sword to smite them with, threatening to murder him if he refused. He pretended to fear that when he had killed a few, the rest might change their minds and avenge the deaths of their fellows; and he insisted that they must all be bound. They agreed to this; when they were defenceless, the young man gave each of them a beating and went his way."
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 04:44:52 AM by NicholasMyra »
Vote for a Ministry section on OC.net

Πάντα μὲν καθαρὰ τοῖς καθαροῖς
Τοῖς δὲ μεμιασμένοις καὶ ἀπίστοις οὐδὲν καθαρόν

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2012, 05:15:10 PM »
Oh boy... just got back from a lecture where my atheist professor made some of the most disturbing and distasteful claims about the "real" life of Francis of Assisi... apparently Francis (and by extension all charitable Christians really) was a selfish fake who couldn't care less about actually helping lepers or the poor but only wanted to beat everyone else in the race to secure a place in the afterlife. It almost made me feel sick and I don't know how to handle it anymore. I know it's a perverted understanding but what about everyone else in the class?? What about the hundreds or thousands of students who take the same course in the future?? Every time he pulls something like this, I go to the discussion group that meets after lecture and try to be diplomatic about it, then I feel guilty afterwards for not being more combative. I'll be so glad when this semester is over.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 05:31:18 PM by NightOwl »

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #33 on: March 19, 2012, 05:21:36 PM »
I was having a discussion with my medieval history professor about the Early Christian perspective on violence. When I brought up the Desert Fathers and martyrs, he claimed a.) That the Desert Fathers upon their arrival in Egypt went around hitting people with what he called "clubs of Christ" and b.) The Early Christians actually encouraged violence because they so fervently wanted to become martyrs. I was dumbfounded at both of these comments but kept it to myself out of respect for the guy (although I kind of wish I hadn't). Any thoughts?

P.S. Mods- if I didn't post this in the appropriate forum please move it to wherever you feel is best.

A.) Certainly not the Desert Fathers. Of course, there's always some rag-tag group claiming to be something they're not, especially in Church history. He should judge us by our saints, not our heretics.

B.) Some martyrs sought out violence for themselves to become martyrs, that is true. However, they never condoned what society was doing to them (actually, the opposite...they condemned them!), they simply wanted to give their lives for Christ.

Interestingly, he also apparently rejects rationalism, citing its roots as a theological (Scholastic) movement as well as Nietzschean arguments. I'm pretty sure he's one of those rare genuine nihilists. Or not, because he still views violence as wrong.  ???

I reject rationalism. It is a theological, scholastic movement...and a bad one. Nietzsche is a good philosopher. Obviously I disagree with a lot of points he arrives at personally (and definitely religiously) but I'd say the same of Hobbs, Hume and a host of others. They're still great philosophers.

One should reject rationalism, but not leave off rationality, as the professor seems to have done.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline NightOwl

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 596
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #34 on: March 19, 2012, 05:33:38 PM »
One should reject rationalism, but not leave off rationality, as the professor seems to have done.

Indeed, but do you have any advice about what I should do?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2012, 05:47:57 PM by NightOwl »

Offline Shanghaiski

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,978
  • Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #35 on: March 19, 2012, 06:17:52 PM »
One should reject rationalism, but not leave off rationality, as the professor seems to have done.

Indeed, but do you have any advice about what I should do?

What you do would depend on a few things such as your ability to make an argument, how much your professor likes to be challenged (if at all, of course), whether you can "work around" his strange ideas, etc. If he is expecting that you simply regurgitate his views, he is unfortunately trampling on your worth as a student and his duty as a professor--but that is sadly common these days since we have long ago all but abandoned actually educating anyone. Your professor was probably a victim of this trend himself. Part of the process of getting a PhD in history these days (which takes about 10 years--longer than any other discipline), involves trying to come up with some new thing that no one has thought of before--a very difficult feat in a field like medieval history which is overpopulated and overcompetitive. Since there is not much "new" going on in medieval history, those who for the sake of convenience we shall call "historians," tend to go to extremes, embracing all kinds of crackpot ideas. It's a base pandering to the ignorant masses to speak of "clubs of Christ." He knows this will make him popular with students and with his professorial cronies why may share his views or at least support him politically as he jockeys for position, publication, tenure, and the like.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline akimori makoto

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 3,126
  • No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...
Re: "Clubs of Christ"
« Reply #36 on: March 19, 2012, 06:53:22 PM »
One should reject rationalism, but not leave off rationality, as the professor seems to have done.

Indeed, but do you have any advice about what I should do?

What you do would depend on a few things such as your ability to make an argument, how much your professor likes to be challenged (if at all, of course), whether you can "work around" his strange ideas, etc. If he is expecting that you simply regurgitate his views, he is unfortunately trampling on your worth as a student and his duty as a professor--but that is sadly common these days since we have long ago all but abandoned actually educating anyone. Your professor was probably a victim of this trend himself. Part of the process of getting a PhD in history these days (which takes about 10 years--longer than any other discipline), involves trying to come up with some new thing that no one has thought of before--a very difficult feat in a field like medieval history which is overpopulated and overcompetitive. Since there is not much "new" going on in medieval history, those who for the sake of convenience we shall call "historians," tend to go to extremes, embracing all kinds of crackpot ideas. It's a base pandering to the ignorant masses to speak of "clubs of Christ." He knows this will make him popular with students and with his professorial cronies why may share his views or at least support him politically as he jockeys for position, publication, tenure, and the like.

So much truth in this.
The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.