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« on: February 15, 2012, 01:31:31 PM »

This has probably been answered before, but I have a bad memory.

Lets say an Orthodox priest, who is married, wants to convert to the Roman Catholic Church. Can he be a priest? How are such things handled?

No real reason for asking, just a bored day at work, and my mind wanders Wink

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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 01:39:44 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 01:44:21 PM »

Orthodox ( at least born, ethnic Orthodox) becoming catholic are normally required to keep their rite, so they become Greek-Catholics.
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2012, 01:46:50 PM »

Makes sense.....
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2012, 01:47:13 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

And yet, there are married Latin Rite priests.  And I believe that they are converts from the Anglican/Episcopalian Church.

My understanding, such as it is, is that when any Orthodox Christian "converts" (translates) to the Catholic Church, they are almost always put into an Eastern Rite church.  I'd imagine this would apply for a married Orthodox priest, too, but don't know for sure.
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2012, 01:48:57 PM »

Orthodox Christians who convert to Catholicism become Eastern Catholics, regardless of which Church they make their confession in (this is all that is required).  I do not believe priests can switch rites, but can only be allowed to say other rites, though I am not positive.  So he would be an Eastern Rite priest, but I'm sure a Roman Catholic diocese would have no problem with giving him Latin-rite faculties.  It would come down to the Eparchy he joins, and whether they allow this.
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2012, 02:02:26 PM »

Orthodox Christians who convert to Catholicism become Eastern Catholics, regardless of which Church they make their confession in (this is all that is required).  I do not believe priests can switch rites, but can only be allowed to say other rites, though I am not positive.  So he would be an Eastern Rite priest, but I'm sure a Roman Catholic diocese would have no problem with giving him Latin-rite faculties.  It would come down to the Eparchy he joins, and whether they allow this.

Sounds about right.

However:  There are still too many Roman rite bishops who are biased against all married clergy, east and west, and do not make things easy for transfer clergy when they are married.

Issues of authority and control.   Orthodoxy has several very good priests on account...and we were truly the losers.

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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2012, 02:30:32 PM »

What about WRO? Are they enrolled in Eastern Catholic churches?
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2012, 02:37:50 PM »

What about WRO? Are they enrolled in Eastern Catholic churches?
Good question, that'd be weird either way Wink

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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2012, 02:54:44 PM »

What about WRO? Are they enrolled in Eastern Catholic churches?
Good question, that'd be weird either way Wink

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Oh!!...never thought of it that way, but yes.  It would be wouldn't it...at least at an emotional and spiritual level.  But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them, though that could get strange depending upon old pre-Roman Catholic relationships.  It is a very small world.

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« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2012, 04:11:29 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
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« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2012, 04:15:30 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
Because they're married priests...all kinds of butt hurt would follow.
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« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2012, 04:19:13 PM »

Some RCC bishops have expressed support for a married priesthood. It'll still be a while before they change the canon law, although the present Pope and his predecessor had more cordial relations with the Eastern churches than have others.

I think the easiest thing to do would be to allow a choice of marriage prior to ordination, same way it's done in the Orthodox Church. It may happen someday, but sometimes they do things a little slowly.  Undecided Too bad.
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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2012, 04:25:09 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
Because they're married priests...all kinds of butt hurt would follow.
 

If married Anglican priests can be received into the Latin church, how would it be different to receive married WRO priests into that same Latin church?

Just out of curiousity--how many married WRO priests are there, and how many of those are likely to convert to Catholicism?
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« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 04:33:17 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
Because they're married priests...all kinds of butt hurt would follow.

LOL. I had completely forgot that one.

Of course this is probably just a theoretical question. I assume that all of our WR clergy have made an explicit decision to not to join the RCC since that would be a lot easier option than WRO.
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 05:20:20 PM »

This has probably been answered before, but I have a bad memory.

Lets say an Orthodox priest, who is married, wants to convert to the Roman Catholic Church. Can he be a priest? How are such things handled?

No real reason for asking, just a bored day at work, and my mind wanders Wink

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Well, since we recognize the Eastern Orthodox priesthood, we already know that he is a priest.
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 05:20:20 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
Because they're married priests...all kinds of butt hurt would follow.
While I recognize that married priests do face a great deal of prejudice, my traditioinal parish was greatly enriched by the presence of two married priests in the past year. One was an ex-Anglican priest. The other used to be a Bishop for the Episcopalians and is now the head of those Catholics who use the Anglican rite here in the United States. Both men experienced some prejudice, but, for the most part, our parish loved them.
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 05:20:20 PM »

Some RCC bishops have expressed support for a married priesthood. It'll still be a while before they change the canon law, although the present Pope and his predecessor had more cordial relations with the Eastern churches than have others.

I think the easiest thing to do would be to allow a choice of marriage prior to ordination, same way it's done in the Orthodox Church. It may happen someday, but sometimes they do things a little slowly.  Undecided Too bad.
It would be very difficult for us to make such a transition because our parishes tend to be huge, and that would make it very difficult to balance ministarial and family life for such priets.
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 06:05:01 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
Because they're married priests...all kinds of butt hurt would follow.
 

If married Anglican priests can be received into the Latin church, how would it be different to receive married WRO priests into that same Latin church?

Just out of curiousity--how many married WRO priests are there, and how many of those are likely to convert to Catholicism?

In the AOCA there are around 30 WRO priests, most of whom are married.  Doubtful that any are likely to convert to Catholicism.  Several are former Catholics.
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 06:06:24 PM »

But I suspect that now that there are the personal prelatures to be established, that might be a way to direct them

Why not to enroll them into the regular Latin church?
Because they're married priests...all kinds of butt hurt would follow.

LOL. I had completely forgot that one.

Of course this is probably just a theoretical question. I assume that all of our WR clergy have made an explicit decision to not to join the RCC since that would be a lot easier option than WRO.

How would that have been easier?
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 06:19:34 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

I know of one Orthodox priest who became Latin Catholic and serves in the Latin Church exclusively.  I know another who became Russian Catholic but is bi-ritual and is pastor of a dual Russian/Latin parish.

There are many married Latin Catholic priests who were former Episcopal/Anglican priests.  I imagine the Latin bishop simply didn't want him.  He was under no obligation to ordain him.
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 06:24:01 PM »

Now, the fun part would be someone in my scenario if i was ordained

Born Latin Catholic, convert(ing) to Orthodoxy, and if i was ordained and reverted to teh rcc, then(as far as i know) i would still be a latin catholic, despite all the other matters
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 06:31:50 PM »

Now, the fun part would be someone in my scenario if i was ordained

Born Latin Catholic, convert(ing) to Orthodoxy, and if i was ordained and reverted to teh rcc, then(as far as i know) i would still be a latin catholic, despite all the other matters

That  is correct.  The bigger question would be did you leave the Latin Church as an adult?  If so, while recognizing your Orthodox ordination, you would not be allowed to serve in the Latin Church as a priest.  This is how Rome heads off defection for ordination at the pass, as it were.
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 08:35:08 PM »

Now, the fun part would be someone in my scenario if i was ordained

Born Latin Catholic, convert(ing) to Orthodoxy, and if i was ordained and reverted to teh rcc, then(as far as i know) i would still be a latin catholic, despite all the other matters
I heard of such a case of a  Latin Catholic converting to E. Orthodox and being ordained an Orthodox priest. After a while as an Orthodox priest, he decided he wanted to be a Catholic. The Byzantine Catholic Church simply accepted him as he was, and he serves as a Byzantine Catholic priest.
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 10:26:39 PM »

This has probably been answered before, but I have a bad memory.

Lets say an Orthodox priest, who is married, wants to convert to the Roman Catholic Church. Can he be a priest? How are such things handled?

No real reason for asking, just a bored day at work, and my mind wanders Wink

PP

I know of one Orthodox priest who served as a US military chaplain for twenty years who was married, remained married and was received into the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church while his wife remained Orthodox.

Normally, such men are received into the Eastern Catholic Church parallel to their own background. i.e. Ukrainian to Ukrainian etc...

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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2012, 07:43:49 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

I know of one Orthodox priest who became Latin Catholic and serves in the Latin Church exclusively.  I know another who became Russian Catholic but is bi-ritual and is pastor of a dual Russian/Latin parish.

There are many married Latin Catholic priests who were former Episcopal/Anglican priests.  I imagine the Latin bishop simply didn't want him.  He was under no obligation to ordain him.

Is the Pittsburgh Eparchy going to ordain married men anytime soon?  I know Bishop Kudrick has done that in Parma in the past, does Bishop-elect Skurla plan to ordain married men?  And one more thing, the byzcaths need to convince him to grow a beard.
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 07:46:57 PM »

Now, the fun part would be someone in my scenario if i was ordained

Born Latin Catholic, convert(ing) to Orthodoxy, and if i was ordained and reverted to teh rcc, then(as far as i know) i would still be a latin catholic, despite all the other matters

Pretty much, you're still "on the books" always at the RC diocese. 
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 11:15:01 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

I know of one Orthodox priest who became Latin Catholic and serves in the Latin Church exclusively.  I know another who became Russian Catholic but is bi-ritual and is pastor of a dual Russian/Latin parish.

There are many married Latin Catholic priests who were former Episcopal/Anglican priests.  I imagine the Latin bishop simply didn't want him.  He was under no obligation to ordain him.

Is the Pittsburgh Eparchy going to ordain married men anytime soon?  I know Bishop Kudrick has done that in Parma in the past, does Bishop-elect Skurla plan to ordain married men?  And one more thing, the byzcaths need to convince him to grow a beard.

I don't know.  We do have a married priest in the Archeparchy but he came from Ukraine.  Once he sees my awesome beard he'll be sure to grow one.    Grin
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 11:26:28 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

I know of one Orthodox priest who became Latin Catholic and serves in the Latin Church exclusively.  I know another who became Russian Catholic but is bi-ritual and is pastor of a dual Russian/Latin parish.

There are many married Latin Catholic priests who were former Episcopal/Anglican priests.  I imagine the Latin bishop simply didn't want him.  He was under no obligation to ordain him.

Is the Pittsburgh Eparchy going to ordain married men anytime soon?  I know Bishop Kudrick has done that in Parma in the past, does Bishop-elect Skurla plan to ordain married men?  And one more thing, the byzcaths need to convince him to grow a beard.

 

I don't know.  We do have a married priest in the Archeparchy but he came from Ukraine.  Once he sees my awesome beard he'll be sure to grow one.    Grin

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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2012, 01:13:07 AM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.
In the Diocese of Shreveport, a former Methodist minister who is married serves as a priest under the Latin Church's pastoral provision, or so I am told by my Catholic acquaintance who is in the discernment process for the priesthood.
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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2012, 10:16:00 AM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

I know of one Orthodox priest who became Latin Catholic and serves in the Latin Church exclusively.  I know another who became Russian Catholic but is bi-ritual and is pastor of a dual Russian/Latin parish.

There are many married Latin Catholic priests who were former Episcopal/Anglican priests.  I imagine the Latin bishop simply didn't want him.  He was under no obligation to ordain him.

Is the Pittsburgh Eparchy going to ordain married men anytime soon?  I know Bishop Kudrick has done that in Parma in the past, does Bishop-elect Skurla plan to ordain married men?  And one more thing, the byzcaths need to convince him to grow a beard.

I don't know.  We do have a married priest in the Archeparchy but he came from Ukraine.  Once he sees my awesome beard he'll be sure to grow one.    Grin

He probably will have to grow a beard to survive a Pittsburgh winter.  Yeah, the parish on southside has a married priest, the  Ukrainian one with forty three domes?  (ok I think it's really like 7)
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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2012, 11:32:07 AM »

The BCC priest here in Binghamton was ordained in Presov as a married Greek Catholic priest in the early 1990's. He is married to a Ukrainian American woman. They have one child. It is my understanding that he did not come directly to America as that was not permitted. He came to the Slovak Greek Catholics in Canada and then to the Diocese of Passaic in the USA. He is very 'vostochnyj' if you know what I mean!  Smiley Many there are not too 'cool' with that.....
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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2012, 11:43:36 AM »

Some RCC bishops have expressed support for a married priesthood. It'll still be a while before they change the canon law, although the present Pope and his predecessor had more cordial relations with the Eastern churches than have others.

I think the easiest thing to do would be to allow a choice of marriage prior to ordination, same way it's done in the Orthodox Church. It may happen someday, but sometimes they do things a little slowly.  Undecided Too bad.

The Church is just being prudent, for a change.  Some RCC bishops have also seen no theological reason to forbid women from priestly ordination...it doesn't mean they're right.  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.  Once the spirit of VII is [super] dead, then perhaps it could be discussed.
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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2012, 12:50:02 PM »

Some RCC bishops have expressed support for a married priesthood. It'll still be a while before they change the canon law, although the present Pope and his predecessor had more cordial relations with the Eastern churches than have others.

I think the easiest thing to do would be to allow a choice of marriage prior to ordination, same way it's done in the Orthodox Church. It may happen someday, but sometimes they do things a little slowly.  Undecided Too bad.

The Church is just being prudent, for a change.  Some RCC bishops have also seen no theological reason to forbid women from priestly ordination...it doesn't mean they're right.  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.  Once the spirit of VII is [super] dead, then perhaps it could be discussed.
Eh?

Maybe I am dense (quite likely, actually), but I can't see how relaxing this particular discipline would damage the Roman church.
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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2012, 06:51:36 PM »

  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?
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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2012, 07:52:41 PM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

I know of one Orthodox priest who became Latin Catholic and serves in the Latin Church exclusively.  I know another who became Russian Catholic but is bi-ritual and is pastor of a dual Russian/Latin parish.

There are many married Latin Catholic priests who were former Episcopal/Anglican priests.  I imagine the Latin bishop simply didn't want him.  He was under no obligation to ordain him.

Is the Pittsburgh Eparchy going to ordain married men anytime soon?  I know Bishop Kudrick has done that in Parma in the past, does Bishop-elect Skurla plan to ordain married men?  And one more thing, the byzcaths need to convince him to grow a beard.

I don't know.  We do have a married priest in the Archeparchy but he came from Ukraine.  Once he sees my awesome beard he'll be sure to grow one.    Grin

He probably will have to grow a beard to survive a Pittsburgh winter.  Yeah, the parish on southside has a married priest, the  Ukrainian one with forty three domes?  (ok I think it's really like 7)

Yes the Ukrainian Catholic parish on the Southside and the Northside both have married priests, but Ruthenian Archeparchy of Pittsburgh has a married priest in Youngstown as well.
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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2012, 07:53:52 PM »

  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

Allowing married priests could encourage dissident Catholics to press for even more changes.  Plus married priests would find it hard to support a family on the low salaries they would be paid.
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« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2012, 07:55:04 PM »

The BCC priest here in Binghamton was ordained in Presov as a married Greek Catholic priest in the early 1990's. He is married to a Ukrainian American woman. They have one child. It is my understanding that he did not come directly to America as that was not permitted. He came to the Slovak Greek Catholics in Canada and then to the Diocese of Passaic in the USA. He is very 'vostochnyj' if you know what I mean!  Smiley Many there are not too 'cool' with that.....

Never heard of that before.  The married priests in Pittsburgh and Parma came straight here.
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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2012, 09:25:14 PM »

  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

Allowing married priests could encourage dissident Catholics to press for even more changes.
If the Catholic authorities thought that changes were damaging to the Catholic Church, why then did they put in so many changes after Vatican II?
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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2012, 11:43:25 PM »

  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

The only way I can think of is, potentially, economic.
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2012, 12:11:57 AM »

  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

Allowing married priests could encourage dissident Catholics to press for even more changes.
If the Catholic authorities thought that changes were damaging to the Catholic Church, why then did they put in so many changes after Vatican II?

Now that is a very good question!
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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2012, 12:24:45 AM »

So what if an Orthodox priest converted but there weren't any EC parishes within hours' driving distance? Would the priest have to move or would he become Latin?
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2012, 08:52:43 AM »

  Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

The only way I can think of is, potentially, economic.

Well, there's not only that. If they switch to a married priesthood, the first time someone gets caught having an affair or gets divorced, boy are we not going to hear the end of it. It's happened before to a few Orthodox I've heard of. It is very damaging for the parish community. It's a bit crass to say they are only worried about the money aspect.
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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2012, 11:45:07 AM »

 Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

It will create divisions within an already divided Church.  The SSPX will be forever out of communion, and traditionalists in communion (FSSP, ICRSS, etc) will refuse married priests just as they already do married deacons, of course acknowledging their orders and place in other parts of church to be politically correct.  They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church, which they largely already are; this would damage all the headway the Pope has given to traditionalism.  Which major groups are calling for married clergy within the Roman Catholic Church?  The same ones which are calling for female clergy, gay marriage, open communion, etc.  It will only open a larger can of worms, giving them the impression that Rome is heeding their desires.  And of course economic reasons, but this is right in line with Roman teaching.  If you cannot financially support a marriage and family, then chances are God is not calling you to do so.  Likewise, if a Church cannot support many families, then God is probably not calling it to do so.  

Notice I said could be damaging.  It doesn't mean it would be, but is not worth the risk.
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« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2012, 08:01:10 PM »

So what if an Orthodox priest converted but there weren't any EC parishes within hours' driving distance? Would the priest have to move or would he become Latin?
I guess he would be relocated. Just a guess.
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« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2012, 08:06:38 PM »

 Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

It will create divisions within an already divided Church.  The SSPX will be forever out of communion, and traditionalists in communion (FSSP, ICRSS, etc) will refuse married priests just as they already do married deacons, of course acknowledging their orders and place in other parts of church to be politically correct.  They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church, which they largely already are; this would damage all the headway the Pope has given to traditionalism.  Which major groups are calling for married clergy within the Roman Catholic Church?  The same ones which are calling for female clergy, gay marriage, open communion, etc.  It will only open a larger can of worms, giving them the impression that Rome is heeding their desires.  And of course economic reasons, but this is right in line with Roman teaching.  If you cannot financially support a marriage and family, then chances are God is not calling you to do so.  Likewise, if a Church cannot support many families, then God is probably not calling it to do so.  

Notice I said could be damaging.  It doesn't mean it would be, but is not worth the risk.
Was it worth the risk to have all of the other changes such as granting marriage annulments to almost everyone who wants one?
There are already married priests in the Catholic Church and I don't see where this has created any problems. If Our Divine Lord and Savior chose a married man (St. Peter) to the the first Pope of the Catholic Church, how dare anyone think that what Our Divine Lord had done was in any way damaging to the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2012, 10:04:49 AM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.

Had he began Catholic at some earlier point in his life, or was he converting to the RCC for the first time?
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2012, 10:08:02 AM »

Of course this is probably just a theoretical question. I assume that all of our WR clergy have made an explicit decision to not to join the RCC since that would be a lot easier option than WRO.

Well, you never know. I'm thinking of a certain ex-Anglican (many of you might know him) who became an RC priest, but then later became an EO priest. It's not unthinkable that someone might go the other way, i.e. become an EO priest but then later become an RC priest.
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2012, 10:17:23 AM »

What about WRO? Are they enrolled in Eastern Catholic churches?

Good question. In principle, if someone in the Antiochian Orthodox Church who is WRO converts to Catholicism, he/she should be enrolled in the Melkite Church -- since the Melkite Church is a Church not a Rite. In practice, I can't say what happens.
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2012, 10:22:41 AM »

I would imagine he could potentially serve under an Eastern Rite. Under Latin Rite, I wouldn't think so.

I know of an Episcopal priest who could not serve because he was married when he converted to Roman Catholic.
In the Diocese of Shreveport, a former Methodist minister who is married serves as a priest under the Latin Church's pastoral provision, or so I am told by my Catholic acquaintance who is in the discernment process for the priesthood.

Interesting. You don't usually hear about the provision being applied to former Methodists.
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2012, 11:05:07 AM »

Well, there's not only that. If they switch to a married priesthood, the first time someone gets caught having an affair or gets divorced, boy are we not going to hear the end of it.

Gosh, I hadn't thought of that. :eek: You're right, we wouldn't hear the end of it.
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2012, 02:38:52 PM »

I have heard the argument that the mandatory celibate priesthood in the RCC was implemented in part in order to protect church property and money.
I imagine it's still a large reason they stick to it today.  Remember the RCC is one of the world's largest real estate owners.  Not so much in order of pure land but in buildings, housing, churches, schools, hospitals, etc...
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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2012, 08:58:22 PM »

 Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

It will create divisions within an already divided Church.  The SSPX will be forever out of communion, and traditionalists in communion (FSSP, ICRSS, etc) will refuse married priests just as they already do married deacons, of course acknowledging their orders and place in other parts of church to be politically correct.  They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church, which they largely already are; this would damage all the headway the Pope has given to traditionalism.  Which major groups are calling for married clergy within the Roman Catholic Church?  The same ones which are calling for female clergy, gay marriage, open communion, etc.  It will only open a larger can of worms, giving them the impression that Rome is heeding their desires.  And of course economic reasons, but this is right in line with Roman teaching.  If you cannot financially support a marriage and family, then chances are God is not calling you to do so.  Likewise, if a Church cannot support many families, then God is probably not calling it to do so.  

Notice I said could be damaging.  It doesn't mean it would be, but is not worth the risk.
Was it worth the risk to have all of the other changes such as granting marriage annulments to almost everyone who wants one?
There are already married priests in the Catholic Church and I don't see where this has created any problems. If Our Divine Lord and Savior chose a married man (St. Peter) to the the first Pope of the Catholic Church, how dare anyone think that what Our Divine Lord had done was in any way damaging to the Catholic Church?

None of the reasons I listed have ANYTHING to do with what our Lord did, nor are they theological.  I never once said married priests are inherently damaging to the Church.  When I said "They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church", I was referring to traditionalist groups, not married clergy.

Keep in mind St. Peter was a bishop.  Do you see any married Bishops in Catholic or Orthodox Churches?  No.  Compare to the married espiscopacy of the Anglican Church.  "How dare the Catholic Church think itself better than our Lord" is probably not the attitude to have with regards to this, either. 
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2012, 09:04:33 PM »

I have heard the argument that the mandatory celibate priesthood in the RCC was implemented in part in order to protect church property and money.
I imagine it's still a large reason they stick to it today.  Remember the RCC is one of the world's largest real estate owners.  Not so much in order of pure land but in buildings, housing, churches, schools, hospitals, etc...

This is probably said by the same people that say the Vatican controls 99.9% of the world's wealth.

You don't have to find some ancient document or elaborate conspiracy or priest's wives scandals.  Ask any good Roman Catholic priest if they prefer married or celibate life.  The vast majority will tell you celibate.  Perhaps there's something to this.
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2012, 09:31:03 PM »

 Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

It will create divisions within an already divided Church.  The SSPX will be forever out of communion, and traditionalists in communion (FSSP, ICRSS, etc) will refuse married priests just as they already do married deacons, of course acknowledging their orders and place in other parts of church to be politically correct.  They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church, which they largely already are; this would damage all the headway the Pope has given to traditionalism.  Which major groups are calling for married clergy within the Roman Catholic Church?  The same ones which are calling for female clergy, gay marriage, open communion, etc.  It will only open a larger can of worms, giving them the impression that Rome is heeding their desires.  And of course economic reasons, but this is right in line with Roman teaching.  If you cannot financially support a marriage and family, then chances are God is not calling you to do so.  Likewise, if a Church cannot support many families, then God is probably not calling it to do so.  

Notice I said could be damaging.  It doesn't mean it would be, but is not worth the risk.
Was it worth the risk to have all of the other changes such as granting marriage annulments to almost everyone who wants one?
There are already married priests in the Catholic Church and I don't see where this has created any problems. If Our Divine Lord and Savior chose a married man (St. Peter) to the the first Pope of the Catholic Church, how dare anyone think that what Our Divine Lord had done was in any way damaging to the Catholic Church?

None of the reasons I listed have ANYTHING to do with what our Lord did, nor are they theological.  I never once said married priests are inherently damaging to the Church.  When I said "They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church", I was referring to traditionalist groups, not married clergy.

Keep in mind St. Peter was a bishop.  Do you see any married Bishops in Catholic or Orthodox Churches?  No.  Compare to the married espiscopacy of the Anglican Church.  "How dare the Catholic Church think itself better than our Lord" is probably not the attitude to have with regards to this, either. 
There have been married bishops in the Catholic church and it was not damaging to the Church, as far as I know. Can you show how in any way, it was damaging to the Church to have had married bishops or married priests?
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« Reply #55 on: February 20, 2012, 09:41:12 PM »

None of the reasons I listed have ANYTHING to do with what our Lord did, nor are they theological.  I never once said married priests are inherently damaging to the Church.  When I said "They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church", I was referring to traditionalist groups, not married clergy.

Keep in mind St. Peter was a bishop.  Do you see any married Bishops in Catholic or Orthodox Churches?  No.  Compare to the married espiscopacy of the Anglican Church.  "How dare the Catholic Church think itself better than our Lord" is probably not the attitude to have with regards to this, either.  

The Anglican Church Communion certainly has many problems (and I think I'm more keenly aware of them than most people who talk about them on this forum) but I doubt they can be traced to having a married episcopacy. Your point is less than clear.

The Continuing Anglican churches have a married episcopacy too, btw. So does the Polish National Catholic Church.
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« Reply #56 on: February 20, 2012, 11:04:09 PM »

 Right now, married priests could be damaging to an already damaged Church, a risk not worth taking at the moment.
How would married priests be damaging to the RC Church?

It will create divisions within an already divided Church.  The SSPX will be forever out of communion, and traditionalists in communion (FSSP, ICRSS, etc) will refuse married priests just as they already do married deacons, of course acknowledging their orders and place in other parts of church to be politically correct.  They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church, which they largely already are; this would damage all the headway the Pope has given to traditionalism.  Which major groups are calling for married clergy within the Roman Catholic Church?  The same ones which are calling for female clergy, gay marriage, open communion, etc.  It will only open a larger can of worms, giving them the impression that Rome is heeding their desires.  And of course economic reasons, but this is right in line with Roman teaching.  If you cannot financially support a marriage and family, then chances are God is not calling you to do so.  Likewise, if a Church cannot support many families, then God is probably not calling it to do so.  

Notice I said could be damaging.  It doesn't mean it would be, but is not worth the risk.
Was it worth the risk to have all of the other changes such as granting marriage annulments to almost everyone who wants one?
There are already married priests in the Catholic Church and I don't see where this has created any problems. If Our Divine Lord and Savior chose a married man (St. Peter) to the the first Pope of the Catholic Church, how dare anyone think that what Our Divine Lord had done was in any way damaging to the Catholic Church?

None of the reasons I listed have ANYTHING to do with what our Lord did, nor are they theological.  I never once said married priests are inherently damaging to the Church.  When I said "They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church", I was referring to traditionalist groups, not married clergy.

Keep in mind St. Peter was a bishop.  Do you see any married Bishops in Catholic or Orthodox Churches?  No.  Compare to the married espiscopacy of the Anglican Church.  "How dare the Catholic Church think itself better than our Lord" is probably not the attitude to have with regards to this, either. 
There have been married bishops in the Catholic church and it was not damaging to the Church, as far as I know. Can you show how in any way, it was damaging to the Church to have had married bishops or married priests?

I am not a historian, so no, I cannot, but I'm sure someone knowledgeable on here can.  I will say though the decision to have celibate bishops is to have better bishops, not to prevent worse ones.  I should clarify that married Bishops are allowed in Orthodox Churches as long as they leave their wives (not divorce), but I'm not sure if this is or ever was common.

Again though, you are missing my point.  I am not saying married priests have been damaging, nor am I saying married priests are bad priests; I am saying introducing a married priesthood to the Roman Catholic Church could be damaging for said social/political/economic reasons.  I'm no authority on the matter, and the has been's are not of my concern.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy
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« Reply #57 on: February 20, 2012, 11:15:56 PM »

None of the reasons I listed have ANYTHING to do with what our Lord did, nor are they theological.  I never once said married priests are inherently damaging to the Church.  When I said "They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church", I was referring to traditionalist groups, not married clergy.

Keep in mind St. Peter was a bishop.  Do you see any married Bishops in Catholic or Orthodox Churches?  No.  Compare to the married espiscopacy of the Anglican Church.  "How dare the Catholic Church think itself better than our Lord" is probably not the attitude to have with regards to this, either.  

The Anglican Church Communion certainly has many problems (and I think I'm more keenly aware of them than most people who talk about them on this forum) but I doubt they can be traced to having a married episcopacy. Your point is less than clear.

The Continuing Anglican churches have a married episcopacy too, btw. So does the Polish National Catholic Church.

I didn't have a point.  But now that you mention it, it's probably the female episcopate.

The PNCC was formed for bogus reasons, and I am not surprised with the direction they've gone.
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« Reply #58 on: February 20, 2012, 11:39:37 PM »

None of the reasons I listed have ANYTHING to do with what our Lord did, nor are they theological.  I never once said married priests are inherently damaging to the Church.  When I said "They will be scrutinized by the mainline Church", I was referring to traditionalist groups, not married clergy.

Keep in mind St. Peter was a bishop.  Do you see any married Bishops in Catholic or Orthodox Churches?  No.  Compare to the married espiscopacy of the Anglican Church.  "How dare the Catholic Church think itself better than our Lord" is probably not the attitude to have with regards to this, either.  

The Anglican Church Communion certainly has many problems (and I think I'm more keenly aware of them than most people who talk about them on this forum) but I doubt they can be traced to having a married episcopacy. Your point is less than clear.

The Continuing Anglican churches have a married episcopacy too, btw. So does the Polish National Catholic Church.

I didn't have a point.  But now that you mention it, it's probably the female episcopate.

Sadly, the trouble started well before the female episcopate. Keep in mind here that even the EC-USA and the Anglican Church of Canada (the two provinces of the Anglican Communion which have gone off the rails worst) didn't have any female bishops until 1989 and 1994, respectively. The Church of England still doesn't have any female bishops.

Female bishops are just one symptom of a disorder that began decades before.
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« Reply #59 on: February 20, 2012, 11:42:48 PM »

The PNCC was formed for bogus reasons, and I am not surprised with the direction they've gone.

What direction would that be?
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« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2012, 03:53:25 AM »

...I am saying introducing a married priesthood to the Roman Catholic Church could be damaging for said social/political/economic reasons.
I can just as easily say that introducing a married priesthood to the Roman Catholic Church could be highly beneficial for social/political/historical/cultural/ecumenical and religious reasons.
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« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2012, 02:48:38 PM »

The PNCC was formed for bogus reasons, and I am not surprised with the direction they've gone.

What direction would that be?

Joining the Anglican Communion, Old Catholics, etc, rejecting original sin, accepting contraception and divorce, optional private confession, and now seeking re-communion with Rome while keeping their ways.  In a nutshell, being convenient Catholics, a common direction of all breakaway churches.
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« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2012, 02:49:52 PM »

...I am saying introducing a married priesthood to the Roman Catholic Church could be damaging for said social/political/economic reasons.
I can just as easily say that introducing a married priesthood to the Roman Catholic Church could be highly beneficial for social/political/historical/cultural/ecumenical and religious reasons.

Ok.
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« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2012, 03:14:47 PM »

The PNCC was formed for bogus reasons, and I am not surprised with the direction they've gone.

What direction would that be?

Joining the Anglican Communion, Old Catholics, etc, rejecting original sin, accepting contraception and divorce, optional private confession, and now seeking re-communion with Rome while keeping their ways.  In a nutshell, being convenient Catholics, a common direction of all breakaway churches.

Just the opposite actually. The PNCC has been fighting against innovation. For example, they terminated their inter-communion with the Episcopal Church in the United States in 1978, in response to its decision to ordain women to the priesthood. Similarly, the PNCC is now no longer in full communion with the Old Catholics, owing mainly to the latter's decision to ordain women to the priesthood.

What's more, I believe it was mentioned on an earlier thread that the PNCC has rejected the filioque, Papal Infallibility, and Papal Supremacy.

Other than having married Bishops, the PNCC is very traditional.
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« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2012, 03:44:29 PM »

Quote
hat's more, I believe it was mentioned on an earlier thread that the PNCC has rejected the filioque, Papal Infallibility, and Papal Supremacy.

Other than having married Bishops, the PNCC is very traditional.
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Peter J
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« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2012, 07:38:09 AM »

I also found this on Wikipedia:

Quote
Although the PNCC has entered into tentative negotiations with Orthodox Churches in North America, no union has resulted due to the PNCC's substantial adherence to the Catholic view of the sacraments and other issues.

Can anyone elaborate on that?
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« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2012, 09:40:29 AM »

I also found this on Wikipedia:

Quote
Although the PNCC has entered into tentative negotiations with Orthodox Churches in North America, no union has resulted due to the PNCC's substantial adherence to the Catholic view of the sacraments and other issues.

Can anyone elaborate on that?

Totally unaware of such discussions.
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« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2012, 01:05:17 PM »

I also found this on Wikipedia:

Quote
Although the PNCC has entered into tentative negotiations with Orthodox Churches in North America, no union has resulted due to the PNCC's substantial adherence to the Catholic view of the sacraments and other issues.

Can anyone elaborate on that?

Totally unaware of such discussions.

Weird because the PNCC doesn't have private confessions over about the age of 15.  They have a general confession during mass.  I wouldn't believe any of this hype.  In my experience the PNCC clergy could see the Orthodox priest turn around in his parking lot and call that a sign of communion.
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