Sauron
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« Reply #225 on: February 22, 2012, 01:31:20 PM » |
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No, the Lord's prayer is not generic. It's the model prayer given to us by Jesus. Since we are not supposed to call any man "Father" because "Our Father is in heaven" as Jesus said, we are addressing our Christian God using the Lord's prayer. The text of the prayer could easily be used by any monotheist. Also, your fun fact, "the outgoing master"... - Jesus commanded us to "Call no man master". Just because somebody is presented with the Lord's prayer, it can be easily distorted by interpretation for those who do not understand or have contorted the understanding. You yourself just asked if it could be generic, which it should not be considered.
Why are some men called "master" in some of the epistles, then? |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #226 on: February 22, 2012, 01:36:44 PM » |
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He didn't say "when everyone in the room is gathered in my name", but "when two or three are gathered in my name". If two Christians are gathered in His name while an unbeliever is also in the room, does it not count?
Of course he is, but you cant say that a generic prayer can be used in such a way. God can't bless generic stuff like that. Its the same thing when we see the political prayers given by folks of all those various religions and they use a generic prayer. It doesn't hold water. I wonder if the Lord's Prayer counts as "generic prayer". It is simply to "Our Father". Who is "Our Father" is a Muslim or Jew? Also, you cant use that argument. No Jew or Muslim would read the New Testament for their version of truth anyways. Since we believe Jesus is God, the prayer can not be used in such a generic way. Also, your fun fact, "the outgoing master"... - Jesus commanded us to "Call no man master". In fairness, this argument gets you nowhere with Orthodox or RC's because such a commandment was thoroughly explained by various folks (I like Fr. Hopko's explanation of this commandment) I do not know what the "Boy Scout" argument is. Is it also the "Serving in Congress" argument or the "serving in the military" argument?
Yeah I dont get this one either mate  The text of the prayer could easily be used by any monotheist No it cant. Jews would look at this as a prayer by a heretic, and for muslims, they would use prayers in the Koran since it is the "correction" to supposed inaccuracies. PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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Sauron
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« Reply #227 on: February 22, 2012, 01:53:22 PM » |
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I wonder if the Lord's Prayer counts as "generic prayer". It is simply to "Our Father". Who is "Our Father" is a Muslim or Jew? Also, you cant use that argument. No Jew or Muslim would read the New Testament for their version of truth anyways. Since we believe Jesus is God, the prayer can not be used in such a generic way. I am talking of merely the text itself. There is nothing in the text of the Lord's Prayer that offends any monotheistic sensibilities. The text of the prayer could easily be used by any monotheist No it cant. Jews would look at this as a prayer by a heretic, and for muslims, they would use prayers in the Koran since it is the "correction" to supposed inaccuracies. PP See above. |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #228 on: February 22, 2012, 01:54:58 PM » |
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I am talking of merely the text itself. There is nothing in the text of the Lord's Prayer that offends any monotheistic sensibilities Just the text in-and-of-itself, yeah I can agree with you on that totally. PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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ironchapman
A bull of truth in the china shop of falsehoods.
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« Reply #229 on: February 22, 2012, 01:59:54 PM » |
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Funny how you mention LATIN to justify Pike to make the comparison of Jesus and Lucifer.
Lucifer was written in Hebrew (Isaiah) in the bible, and Jesus was written in Greek.
The rest of your point was based on that.
Fair enough, but when calling the Devil "Lucifer" we do not use the Hebrew word. Similarly, when the Vulgate (or any Latin translation) refers to Jesus as "lucifer", it does not use the Greek word. Any understanding and debate we have over what the word "lucifer" means (whether the literal meaning of the morning or day star or as a reference to, depending on the context, Jesus or the Devil--the latter always a capital "L") is derived from the Latin text, which is why it is so important to the debate. What the original languages have to say is in this case, irrelevant. Pike calls Lucifer the "son of the morning", which meshes perfectly with the Biblical references to the Devil as Lucifer. He never calls the Devil lower case lucifer or the day star, as far as I can tell, and I have searched M&D for any and all references to the Devil as Lucifer. And in any case, Pike makes it absolutely clear who he considers the Lucifer he speaks of to be on page 324: the Devil. I've had enough of this Dorals and Mogma crap. I don't even know if you read the book, and if you did so, it appears you didn't do so with a critical eye or any sense of context. I think I'm done for good now. You have not addressed my points, you have merely regurgitated your own already debunked--and debunked long before I came here or this forum even existed--talking points, rejecting any "knowledge" outside of your conspiracy websites. As I said before, I do not believe it within my human powers to persuade you if these appeals to facts I have made do not make any difference. |
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« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 02:01:16 PM by ironchapman »
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." --Bertrand Russell
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yeshuaisiam
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The best things in life are not things.
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« Reply #230 on: February 23, 2012, 12:12:05 PM » |
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Funny how you mention LATIN to justify Pike to make the comparison of Jesus and Lucifer.
Lucifer was written in Hebrew (Isaiah) in the bible, and Jesus was written in Greek.
The rest of your point was based on that.
Fair enough, but when calling the Devil "Lucifer" we do not use the Hebrew word. Similarly, when the Vulgate (or any Latin translation) refers to Jesus as "lucifer", it does not use the Greek word. Any understanding and debate we have over what the word "lucifer" means (whether the literal meaning of the morning or day star or as a reference to, depending on the context, Jesus or the Devil--the latter always a capital "L") is derived from the Latin text, which is why it is so important to the debate. What the original languages have to say is in this case, irrelevant. Pike calls Lucifer the "son of the morning", which meshes perfectly with the Biblical references to the Devil as Lucifer. He never calls the Devil lower case lucifer or the day star, as far as I can tell, and I have searched M&D for any and all references to the Devil as Lucifer. And in any case, Pike makes it absolutely clear who he considers the Lucifer he speaks of to be on page 324: the Devil. I've had enough of this Dorals and Mogma crap. I don't even know if you read the book, and if you did so, it appears you didn't do so with a critical eye or any sense of context. I think I'm done for good now. You have not addressed my points, you have merely regurgitated your own already debunked--and debunked long before I came here or this forum even existed--talking points, rejecting any "knowledge" outside of your conspiracy websites. As I said before, I do not believe it within my human powers to persuade you if these appeals to facts I have made do not make any difference. I'm not trying to irritate anybody, but the points may be debunked to you, but the questions you asked were based on things I could not make sense of because the questions were not "rooted right" to where I could understand them. Have a look at this web page: http://www.cuttingedge.org/free11.htmlI agree with most of the things on that individual page. It presents several of the arguments against Masonry being a Luciferian religion. I'm only extending my hand as a brother in Christ to you. Not trying to cause debates or anything. |
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yeshuaisiam
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The best things in life are not things.
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« Reply #231 on: February 23, 2012, 12:15:38 PM » |
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No, the Lord's prayer is not generic. It's the model prayer given to us by Jesus. Since we are not supposed to call any man "Father" because "Our Father is in heaven" as Jesus said, we are addressing our Christian God using the Lord's prayer. The text of the prayer could easily be used by any monotheist. Also, your fun fact, "the outgoing master"... - Jesus commanded us to "Call no man master". Just because somebody is presented with the Lord's prayer, it can be easily distorted by interpretation for those who do not understand or have contorted the understanding. You yourself just asked if it could be generic, which it should not be considered.
Why are some men called "master" in some of the epistles, then? Agreed, it could be used by any monotheist, except the hallowed name "YHWH" is Jewish/Christian. Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to. |
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« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 12:19:17 PM by yeshuaisiam »
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primuspilus
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« Reply #232 on: February 23, 2012, 12:44:07 PM » |
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Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to It has also been thoroughly explained. Lets leave that alone. |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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yeshuaisiam
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The best things in life are not things.
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« Reply #233 on: February 23, 2012, 08:44:41 PM » |
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Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to It has also been thoroughly explained. Lets leave that alone. haha bait to get me talking about it again. |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #234 on: February 24, 2012, 02:33:55 PM » |
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Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to It has also been thoroughly explained. Lets leave that alone. haha bait to get me talking about it again. Evidently its working judging by my recent private messages  Not that I mind PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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biro
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« Reply #235 on: February 24, 2012, 02:35:56 PM » |
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Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to It has also been thoroughly explained. Lets leave that alone. haha bait to get me talking about it again. You're the one who brought it up. |
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primuspilus
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« Reply #236 on: February 24, 2012, 02:55:01 PM » |
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Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to It has also been thoroughly explained. Lets leave that alone. haha bait to get me talking about it again. You're the one who brought it up. Its ok, we're having a good talk in the PM's PP |
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"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
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yeshuaisiam
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The best things in life are not things.
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« Reply #237 on: February 24, 2012, 02:57:52 PM » |
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Heh, the master thing, all I want to do on this thread is quote what GOD TOLD US. That's an entire other can of worms that have caused arguments on other threads I have. Just remember God clearly told us not to It has also been thoroughly explained. Lets leave that alone. haha bait to get me talking about it again. You're the one who brought it up. Its ok, we're having a good talk in the PM's PP Yes thank you. |
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