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Author Topic: We are all Priests offering spiritual sacrifices to God  (Read 2442 times) Average Rating: 0
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David Young
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« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2012, 05:12:27 AM »

in the North Dallas area... I'll gladly take you out to break bread and maybe share a cup of coffee.

Thank you; but I have never been out of Europe, and do not foresee any reason or even excuse to be in the likely future. I have a friend who works in Dallas some months each year, who is English and otherwise lives in England. From what he says I understand why it is coffee you are offering!  Wink
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« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 07:28:01 AM »

We can't add anything to the cross

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the Church, of which I became a deacon according to the economy from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints."

-Epistle to the Colossians 1:24-26

Colossians 1:23-29 King James Version (better)

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
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« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 07:34:11 AM »

@Benjamin The Red -- In Hebrews 4:14-16, we are told we can approach the throne of grace in boldness with an echo from the OT Leviticus 21:17-21. The throne of God where there is grace and mercy Psalm 89:14. The priestly privilege of access once available to a few is now extended to all Christians. We can now all draw near to God with full confidence and freedom.



Hebrews 4:14-16 has nothing to do with Leviticus 21:17-21. The Law there is explaining which descendants of Aaron (that is, men who are already priests) may not serve at the altar due to defect. The Hebrews passage cites the Ascension of Christ and affirms the fullness of his humanity, stating that we can now receive mercy and grace from God because of Christ. The passage from Leviticus doesn't even mention a throne, unless you keep reading after the passage you cite and read verse 23 which says,

"Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them."

Still yet, it does not say throne, only altar. Perhaps you're trying to equate this word with "mercy seat" and therefore call it the "throne of God"...which is okay. However, that's not what the Hebrews passage is talking about here. In Greek, the word used in Hebrews 4:16 is θρόνος (thronos) which simply means "seat" (not even a particularly nice one, that connotation came later) and not ἱλαστήριον (hilasterion) as St. Paul writes in Hebrews 9:5. Further, in the Septuagint, the word being used here for "altar" is neither θρόνος (which can never mean altar) nor ἱλαστήριον, it's θυσιαστήριον (thusiasterion).

St. Paul in Hebrews 4:14-16 is expressing to us the freedom of grace all Christians receive through the sacrifice of Christ, to whom we draw near (and even partake of at the Eucharist. Even when the priest brings out the Eucharist in the Liturgy he says, "In the fear of God, with faith and love draw near"). This passage has nothing to do with the priesthood of all believers and is not even primarily about the details of Christ's priesthood (for he is setting up to speak about that later in the epistle).

Don't imagine for one moment that i will be put off the point because of your Google-fu.

My goal wasn't to fully exegete Leviticus 21:17-21 or i would have done so. It was merely to highlight the role of the ministerial priests and how people had to go to them and in a sense, through them, to have access to God.

We do not have to go to or through a priest now in any sense. What separates God and man has been dealt with once and for all so that those who call on him, believe in Him can approach Him freely and with boldness.
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« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »

We can't add anything to the cross

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the Church, of which I became a deacon according to the economy from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints."

-Epistle to the Colossians 1:24-26

Colossians 1:23-29 King James Version (better)

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?
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« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 10:14:24 AM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
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« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2012, 10:18:20 AM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
So, what about the former question? What's your answer to that? What's the point of this duel of the versions?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 10:18:58 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2012, 10:28:07 AM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
So, what about the former question? What's your answer to that? What's the point of this duel of the versions?

Because translations are important.
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« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2012, 11:39:40 AM »

We can't add anything to the cross

"I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the Church, of which I became a deacon according to the economy from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints."

-Epistle to the Colossians 1:24-26

Colossians 1:23-29 King James Version (better)

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This verse does not help your case.  You still have not dealt with 1 John, but in either case, it is a very bold move of a person to come before God with a broken heart and contrition.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2012, 12:59:15 PM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
So, what about the former question? What's your answer to that? What's the point of this duel of the versions?

Because translations are important.
Important to what? (beside the point that the superiority of one version of the Scriptures over another is totally off the topic of this thread)
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« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2012, 01:18:21 PM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
So, what about the former question? What's your answer to that? What's the point of this duel of the versions?

Because translations are important.
Important to what? (beside the point that the superiority of one version of the Scriptures over another is totally off the topic of this thread)

Then stop asking me questions about it!

#shakes head
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2012, 01:42:02 PM »

Quote
What separates God and man has been dealt with once and for all so that those who call on him, believe in Him can approach Him freely and with boldness
So why did Paul and the other apostles go around ordaining ministers if it was not necessary?

PP
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« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2012, 01:43:37 PM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
So, what about the former question? What's your answer to that? What's the point of this duel of the versions?

Because translations are important.
Important to what? (beside the point that the superiority of one version of the Scriptures over another is totally off the topic of this thread)

Then stop asking me questions about it!

#shakes head
You brought in the different version of a Bible passage to counter someone else's quote of the same passage, then you justified your action by stating that "translations are important". This doesn't make any sense to me, so I'm trying to understand your point in doing so and how it fits this discussion.

Do note, also, that I didn't ask my question regarding the duel of the versions merely of you. I ask the question also of NicholasMyra, since he is just as guilty of quoting a passage of Scripture without giving any additional information as to what point he hoped to make by doing so.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 01:45:43 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2012, 01:55:15 PM »

Quote
What separates God and man has been dealt with once and for all so that those who call on him, believe in Him can approach Him freely and with boldness
So why did Paul and the other apostles go around ordaining ministers if it was not necessary?

PP

It was necessary and important, because the apostles obviously did it. They travelled large distances to do so often times. The stance the protestant must take here then is that it was important for the apostles to do so, but not important for those whom they ordained to do the same, which really makes no sense at all.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 01:55:48 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Benjamin the Red
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« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2012, 02:00:57 PM »

@Benjamin The Red -- In Hebrews 4:14-16, we are told we can approach the throne of grace in boldness with an echo from the OT Leviticus 21:17-21. The throne of God where there is grace and mercy Psalm 89:14. The priestly privilege of access once available to a few is now extended to all Christians. We can now all draw near to God with full confidence and freedom.



Hebrews 4:14-16 has nothing to do with Leviticus 21:17-21. The Law there is explaining which descendants of Aaron (that is, men who are already priests) may not serve at the altar due to defect. The Hebrews passage cites the Ascension of Christ and affirms the fullness of his humanity, stating that we can now receive mercy and grace from God because of Christ. The passage from Leviticus doesn't even mention a throne, unless you keep reading after the passage you cite and read verse 23 which says,

"Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries: for I the LORD do sanctify them."

Still yet, it does not say throne, only altar. Perhaps you're trying to equate this word with "mercy seat" and therefore call it the "throne of God"...which is okay. However, that's not what the Hebrews passage is talking about here. In Greek, the word used in Hebrews 4:16 is θρόνος (thronos) which simply means "seat" (not even a particularly nice one, that connotation came later) and not ἱλαστήριον (hilasterion) as St. Paul writes in Hebrews 9:5. Further, in the Septuagint, the word being used here for "altar" is neither θρόνος (which can never mean altar) nor ἱλαστήριον, it's θυσιαστήριον (thusiasterion).

St. Paul in Hebrews 4:14-16 is expressing to us the freedom of grace all Christians receive through the sacrifice of Christ, to whom we draw near (and even partake of at the Eucharist. Even when the priest brings out the Eucharist in the Liturgy he says, "In the fear of God, with faith and love draw near"). This passage has nothing to do with the priesthood of all believers and is not even primarily about the details of Christ's priesthood (for he is setting up to speak about that later in the epistle).

Don't imagine for one moment that i will be put off the point because of your Google-fu.

My goal wasn't to fully exegete Leviticus 21:17-21 or i would have done so. It was merely to highlight the role of the ministerial priests and how people had to go to them and in a sense, through them, to have access to God.

We do not have to go to or through a priest now in any sense. What separates God and man has been dealt with once and for all so that those who call on him, believe in Him can approach Him freely and with boldness.

My Google-fu...you're cute. However, my UBS 4th ed. is insulted.  Tongue

In one sense what you say is true...in another it is entirely false.

Firstly, it seems that you're still ignoring the parallels between the OT and the NT "priesthood of all believers" and the parallels between the OT Levitical and NT Melchizedek priesthoods. You simply cannot equate the royal priesthood that St. Peter speaks of with the Levitical priesthood of Old. Why? Because he's actually quoting the Law wherein God is saying this exact same thing to the Israelite people! St. Peter is not claiming that all Christians now function as Christian priests (that is, to offer the Christian sacrifices). All Christians now receive priesthood as did all Israelites of old. The Promises of Israel are now of the Church.

You're absolutely right that Christ has dealt with the problem of sin for humanity, and we can approach God now and receive true forgiveness and reconciliation. That's absolutely 100% Gospel truth. However, you seem to be arguing that this idea is opposed to priesthood. You've created a false dichotomy. Christians still have priests. Priests are how we become Christians. Show me how many people baptize themselves in the New Testament, or are able to receive the Holy Spirit by their own willing? I'll save you the word searches: None. All of them are baptized by the clergy of the Church, and all must receive the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands from an Apostle. This is the role of priesthood in Christianity, and it was there from Day One.

So, yes, we all approach God and may attain unity with Him. However, that is done in and through the Church, which provides us with priests who, by the grace of God, baptize and chrismate us, who hear our confessions and pronounce absolution and who officiates at the altar of the Eucharist and are able to say to us faithful communicants: "in the fear of God, with faith and love...draw near."
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« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2012, 02:14:26 PM »

Quote
What separates God and man has been dealt with once and for all so that those who call on him, believe in Him can approach Him freely and with boldness
So why did Paul and the other apostles go around ordaining ministers if it was not necessary?

PP

It was necessary and important, because the apostles obviously did it. They travelled large distances to do so often times. The stance the protestant must take here then is that it was important for the apostles to do so, but not important for those whom they ordained to do the same, which really makes no sense at all.
You are right. It was important. You're also right about that protestant stance making no sense. For Protestants to state it was important for the Apostles to do so, but nobody else would go against the view that Christ changed everything, not the Apostles.

PP
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« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2012, 02:45:57 PM »

Okay, so what's the point of this duel of the versions? To say, "My version of the Scriptures is better than yours!"?

No.
So, what about the former question? What's your answer to that? What's the point of this duel of the versions?

Because translations are important.
Important to what? (beside the point that the superiority of one version of the Scriptures over another is totally off the topic of this thread)

Then stop asking me questions about it!

#shakes head
You brought in the different version of a Bible passage to counter someone else's quote of the same passage, then you justified your action by stating that "translations are important". This doesn't make any sense to me, so I'm trying to understand your point in doing so and how it fits this discussion.

Do note, also, that I didn't ask my question regarding the duel of the versions merely of you. I ask the question also of NicholasMyra, since he is just as guilty of quoting a passage of Scripture without giving any additional information as to what point he hoped to make by doing so.

*cough* alright, well, this little ruckus has gone far enough. Hopefully I can put a stop to it.

Fountain pen said that you totally can't add to the cross.

St. Paul said that you can totally add to the cross, in some sense, unless you somehow interpret "Christ's afflictions" to refer to something other than His Passion.

That particular part of St. Paul's statement in Colossians remains clear in both translations given (hers KJV, mine NKJV with some words fixed to literal Greek).

Everyone knows that the only inspired translation of Scripture is Young's Literal Translation, anyway.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 02:47:23 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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