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Author Topic: Is the Bible Infaillible?  (Read 1280 times) Average Rating: 0
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Azul
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« on: February 13, 2012, 05:13:43 AM »

What happened to the 30 pieces of silver?

Judas used the coins to buy the potter's field.
Acts 1:18: Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Judas returned the silver to the chief priests.
Matthew 27:5: Then he [Judas] threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

How did Judas die?

Judas fell and burst open.
Acts 1:18: Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Judas hanged himself.
Matthew 27:5: Then he [Judas] threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Who bought the potter's field?

Judas bought the potter's field.
Acts 1:18: Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

The chief priests bought the potter's field.
Matthew 27:7: And they [the chief priests] consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Why is the potter's field called the "Field of Blood"?

The potter's field is called the Field of Blood due to Judas' death in the field.
Acts 1:18-19: (18) Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. (19) And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.

The potter's field is called the Field of Blood due to the coins being "blood money".
Matthew 27:7-8: (7) And they [the chief priests] consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. (Cool Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Are we to obey the laws of men?

We are to obey G-d not men.
Acts 5:29: But Peter and the [other] apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men.

We are to obey the laws of men. It is the will of G-d.
Romans 13:1-4: (1) Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. (2) Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. (4) For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Where is Jacob ben Isaac buried?

Jacob was buried in Shechem in the sepulchre.
Acts 7:15-16: (15) So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. (16) And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, [the father] of Shechem.

Jacob was buried in the cave in the field of Machpelah in Hebron.
Genesis 50:13: And his [Jacob] sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and they buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which field Abraham had bought for burial property from Ephron the Hittite before Mamre.

Who did Abraham buy the tomb from where Jacob ben Isaac buried?

Jacob was buried in Shechem in the sepulchre that was bought from the sons of Emmor/Hamor.
Acts 7:15-16: (15) So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. (16) And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, [the father] of Shechem.

Jacob was buried in the cave in the field of Machpelah in Hebron that was bought from Ephron, the Hittite.
Genesis 50:13: And his [Jacob] sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and they buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which field Abraham had bought for burial property from Ephron the Hittite before Mamre.

What did those at Paul's conversion experience?

Those present at Paul's conversion heard a voice but saw nothing.
Acts 9:7: And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

Those present at Paul's conversion saw a light but did not hear a voice.
Acts 22:9: And those who were with me indeed saw the light and were afraid, but they did not hear the voice of Him who spoke to me.

Those present at Paul's conversion stood.
Acts 9:7: And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one.

Those present at Paul's conversion fell to the ground.
Acts 26:14: And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? [It is] hard for you to kick against the goads.'

Where did Paul go after his conversion?

Shortly after Paul's conversion he went to Damascus, then to Jerusalem where he was introduced to the apostles by Barnabas. He then went to Caesarea and Tarsus.
Acts 9:19-30: (19) So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus. (20) Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. (21) Then all who heard were amazed, and said, "Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?" (22) But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this [Jesus] is the Christ. (23) Now after many days were past, the Jews plotted to kill him. (24) But their plot became known to Saul. And they watched the gates day and night, to kill him. (25) Then the disciples took him by night and let [him] down through the wall in a large basket. (26) And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. (27) But Barnabas took him and brought [him] to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus. (28) So he was with them at Jerusalem, coming in and going out. (29) And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. (30) When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus.

Shortly after Paul's conversion he went to Arabia and Damascus then three years later he went to Jerusalem and met Peter and James only. He then went to Syria and Cilicia.
Galatians 1:15-21: (15) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called [me] through His grace, (16) to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, (17) nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those [who were] apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. (18) Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. (19) But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord's brother. (20) (Now [concerning] the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.) (21) Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. http://www.turntotorah.com/acts_contradictions.html

“‘Then Joseph sent and invited his father Jacob and all his relatives to come to him, seventy-five in all; so Jacob went down to Egypt.’” [Acts 7:14-15a]

“… all the persons of the house of Jacob who came into Egypt were seventy.” [Genesis 46:27, NRSV]

“Your ancestors went down to Egypt seventy persons; and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars in heaven.” [Deuteronomy 10:22, NRSV]

How does Orthodoxy deal with these, esspecially with those in Acts 7?Is the Bible really Infaillible?
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 05:36:15 AM »

The greater issue is in the two faces of the 'Father' of Jesus and the merciless and intolerant character of the Law. Some Orthodox will have no issue telling you that the Law is just an idolatric expression of people's corrupt nature, rather than a true uttering of God. I don't know what the official statement is.

The Creed says the Holy Spirit spoke through the Law and prophets. What part of the Law is that and what prophets are those?

If indeed we should consider every jot of the law, then what Christianity is is nothing but extending authority of the Jewish priesthood and government to the gentiles. But this is what Revelations portrays as the Beast government if you ask me, but Revelation seems more concerned with eternal spiritual truth rather than the Christianity witnessed by the account of Acts.

Such as, Forgive, and you will be forgiven, and this forgiveness is also our deliverance from sin and the forces of the world.
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 10:41:43 AM »

I think (just my cheap opinion) that we as Orthodox need to be very careful when we speak about the "infallibility of Scripture." This is a loaded phrase and buzzword that exists predominantly in (Evangelical) Protestant circles that hold to Sola Scriptura and therefore have a very, very different understanding of what the Scriptures are from the Orthodox.

Those who propose such doctrines are seeking to appeal to a single, unifying authority: The Bible. This is the same trap as the Roman Catholics appealing to the Bishop of Rome as the mark of unity and catholicity, and both are rejected by the Orthodox Church. We have no single unifying authority...not like these groups do. True, some may cite the Ecumenical Councils...but those don't even work like the Pope of Rome for the Roman Catholics or the Scriptures for Protestants. Ecumenical Councils are not automatically recognized as such (most, if not all...were not) and those that were widely-accepted very quickly often later became known as Robber Councils and were anathematized by what later became known as the legitimate Ecumenical Council. The Church as a whole, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, receives and guards the Deposit of Faith. The Episcopacy and the Scriptures point towards that unity and shine forth cornerstones of that Holy Tradition, but our Faith does not fully hang on either of these, as vital as they are.

Notice that all of the verses you cite are recording peripheral facts surrounding events, not dogmas of the Faith. These are not the heart of the issue. Does it really matter what specifically happened to Judas? Does it matter how Abraham acquired the land? No, I don't think so. The spirit of the event is roughly equivalent and the doctrines of the Faith are not altered. Scripture is not history as such not even the so-called "historical books" of the OT (that is, Joshua, Judges I-IV Kingdoms, I-II Paraleipomenon, etc.) they record the historical interactions of God with the Israelite people, but the focus is the relationship of the people of God to Him, not on the historical details.

For example, even in the books of III-IV Kingdoms, the list of kings of Israel and their reigns do not fit in the time period allowed. There are too many statements of "King so-and-so reigned in total X years and died..." The total years of all kings that reigned as given in the Scriptures does not fit in the time frame of the historical events in the book. Some scholars have tried, and I think failed, to explain this away through the use of co-regencies, usurpations and all sorts of other year-bending tricks and tactics to make the record fit. This is silliness! The point of these books is not to record the history of Israel as such, but rather to record these people's interaction with God.

So, I would say we cannot strictly attempt to hold the Scriptures to minute elements of historicity, nor can we hold it strictly to science (today, we know there are no "waters above the heavens" for example). The point is to reveal Truth (that is, Christ) and not relatively insignificant facts. The Bible is a collection of books written by various men over many centuries from different cultures and in different languages that properly shines forward the Holy Tradition of the Church, written by men in the Church (from both the Old and New Covenants) and canonized by that same Church for the purpose of determining what books are permitted to be read at the Liturgy. They are a cornerstone of our Tradition, though not all of it. The Gospels, in addition, are a beautiful icon of Christ (the "icon of words" rather than of paint).

However, I don't believe we can or should call the Scriptures "infallible" in the same sense as is meant by many Protestant groups that use such terminology.
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 11:13:48 AM »

I had a professor in college who said it wasnt best to use the word "infallible."  He suggested its better to use the word "trustworthy."

Id like to know what you guys think of that terminology.  I guess the point is that even if there are small little differences here and there, we can still trust that it has everything we need to know regarding salvation.
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 12:22:21 PM »

What happened to the 30 pieces of silver?

Judas used the coins to buy the potter's field.
Acts 1:18: Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Judas returned the silver to the chief priests.
Matthew 27:5: Then he [Judas] threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

How did Judas die?

Judas fell and burst open.
Acts 1:18: Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Judas hanged himself.
Matthew 27:5: Then he [Judas] threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Who bought the potter's field?

Judas bought the potter's field.
Acts 1:18: Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

The chief priests bought the potter's field.
Matthew 27:7: And they [the chief priests] consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Why is the potter's field called the "Field of Blood"?

The potter's field is called the Field of Blood due to Judas' death in the field.
Acts 1:18-19: (18) Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. (19) And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.

The potter's field is called the Field of Blood due to the coins being "blood money".
Matthew 27:7-8: (7) And they [the chief priests] consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. (8 ) Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.


Quote
Of the four Evangelists, Matthew is the only writer to narrate Judas’ death (27:3-10) and thus explain why Judas could not see the risen Christ with the other eleven disciples in Galilee (28:16-20). Judas’ exclusion from the group of the twelve apostles is also implied by Mark and Luke, who record that Jesus appeared to and instructed the “eleven” rather than the “twelve” after His resurrection (Mark 16:14; Luke 24:9 and 33). In John’s Gospel, where the phrase “the eleven” does not exist in the resurrection narratives, Judas Iscariot’s exclusion from the rest of the apostles is hinted at in Jesus’ prayer when Jesus identifies Judas Iscariot as the only “son of destruction” in 17:12. Consequently, it is not wrong to say that all of the four Gospels are in perfect harmony with regard to the exclusion of Judas Iscariot from the group of the twelve apostles.

Taken from an article entitled Judas Iscariot: One man and two prophecies in Jeremiah. You may read the rest here: http://answering-islam.org/authors/masihiyyen/judas_death.html
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 12:36:35 PM »

I think the Jews see it like the Protestants(the Word of God) a pay big honour to it.And I think that so did some of the fathers.Correct me if i`m wrong.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 12:38:27 PM »

I`m also concerned with St Stephen the first protomartyr... Where did he get his "facts" from in Acts 7?
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 01:49:45 PM »

The New Testament transcends the Old Testament.  The Old Testament, for me, signifies the best that humans can worship God without directly knowing/experiencing Him. It's true the OT prophets knew God in various ways and degrees, but nothing like the direct revelation of God The Son in the NT, and His sending of The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) as a means of forming a very intimate and close relationship between God and mankind (through The Grace of God, or experiencing God through His Uncreated Energies).  So, The Old Testament remains an old, rudimentary, limited to human capacity way, while The New Testament is the fullness of the relationship between God and man (who receives God Himself within him).  It's not that the OT is evil in itself (if done according to the law, so, not necessarily idolatrous), but it just has to be left behind as it was meant to serve a purpose, to represent a stage in the development of humanity.

The greater issue is in the two faces of the 'Father' of Jesus and the merciless and intolerant character of the Law. Some Orthodox will have no issue telling you that the Law is just an idolatric expression of people's corrupt nature, rather than a true uttering of God. I don't know what the official statement is.

The Creed says the Holy Spirit spoke through the Law and prophets. What part of the Law is that and what prophets are those?

If indeed we should consider every jot of the law, then what Christianity is is nothing but extending authority of the Jewish priesthood and government to the gentiles. But this is what Revelations portrays as the Beast government if you ask me, but Revelation seems more concerned with eternal spiritual truth rather than the Christianity witnessed by the account of Acts.

Such as, Forgive, and you will be forgiven, and this forgiveness is also our deliverance from sin and the forces of the world.
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 02:37:15 PM »

I had a professor in college who said it wasnt best to use the word "infallible."  He suggested its better to use the word "trustworthy."

Id like to know what you guys think of that terminology.  I guess the point is that even if there are small little differences here and there, we can still trust that it has everything we need to know regarding salvation.

I think that's closer to the truth. I wouldn't necessarily use the phrasing you did by saying the Bible "has everything we need...regarding salvation." The Scriptures are life-giving when understood in the proper context of the Church, and we cannot remove them from that. To do so is to be Protestant. It's my opinion that we need to be careful about saying, "this is all we need to have to be saved." I believe that thinking in such a way makes our salvation a minimalistic achievement. The quintessential "what must I do to be saved." That is, tell me one thing I've got to do and I'll do it and be done. That's not what we're called to do.

When the Rich Young Ruler asks the question to Christ he is told, "You know the commandments: Do not steal, do not kill, honor your father and mother..." This is not a single thing, but a plethora of commandments. We must follow all God has called us to do, which we have not. Still, though, the Rich Young Ruler persists and says he's done all of this from his earliest days. Christ then tells him, "There is one thing you lack. Sell all that you have and give the money to the poor, then take up your cross and follow me." Christ tells this man to give away all that he has acquired of his own merit and to follow Christ in suffering ("take up your cross").

To give a grammatical analogy, our salvation is not in the simple past, it is a present imperative that we must constantly follow in every way possible. We have many tools in this endeavor, given to us by the Church. Yes, a chief one among them is to devour the Scriptures. However, in so doing, we are also to pray, fast, attend the divine services, confess, commune, etc. Taking any one of these things and saying it is the "one thing needful" is to remove attention from the One Thing Needful which is Christ. The rest of all the means of attaining Him, but He is that which we "must" have for salvation.

The New Testament transcends the Old Testament.  The Old Testament, for me, signifies the best that humans can worship God without directly knowing/experiencing Him. It's true the OT prophets knew God in various ways and degrees, but nothing like the direct revelation of God The Son in the NT, and His sending of The Comforter (The Holy Spirit) as a means of forming a very intimate and close relationship between God and mankind (through The Grace of God, or experiencing God through His Uncreated Energies).  So, The Old Testament remains an old, rudimentary, limited to human capacity way, while The New Testament is the fullness of the relationship between God and man (who receives God Himself within him).  It's not that the OT is evil in itself (if done according to the law, so, not necessarily idolatrous), but it just has to be left behind as it was meant to serve a purpose, to represent a stage in the development of humanity.

In a sense I think this is definitely true. I would certainly not say that the OT is evil or idolatrous. It is given to the People by God Himself! Christ tells us in the Gospels that He doesn't come to abolish the Law and the Prophets but to fulfill them. I think people make a mistake when they note parts of the Law that we no longer follow and therefore conclude that the Law has "passed away."

However, Christ said not the least stroke of a pen will disappear from the Law! Rather, we must remember that the types of shadows of the Law of Moses are now fulfilled and brought to their ultimate meaning in the New Law, that is, the Gospel. The Law is no different than the Gospel, and certainly it is not opposed to it. Rather, it is the forerunner to Christ and points to Him (seen beautifully in the ministry of St. John the Forerunner himself). It is through the Law that we see Christ (this is how the Apostles, even Peter and Paul themselves, preach to the Jews). Though, we also recognize that the Law is the type and shadow of the Gospel of Christ, which is worship "in spirit and truth."
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 03:25:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Lets look at these rationally:

Quote
What happened to the 30 pieces of silver?

Judas used the coins to buy the potter's field.
Acts 1:18: Now this man [Judas] purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Judas returned the silver to the chief priests.
Matthew 27:5: Then he [Judas] threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.


Both, it was through Judas' wages that the Chief Priests purchased this field on his behalf.

Quote
How did Judas die?

Judas fell and burst open.
Acts 1:18: Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

Judas hanged himself.
Matthew 27:5: Then he [Judas] threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself.


Both, fathers such as Augustine have suggested that when Judas hanged himself, the fall burst open his gut similar to a kind of hernia. Further, he may have actually stabbed himself along with the hanging..
Quote
Who bought the potter's field?

Judas bought the potter's field.
Acts 1:18: Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.

The chief priests bought the potter's field.
Matthew 27:7: And they [the chief priests] consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

We discussed this above, the priest's bought the field of Judas' behalf, as a kind of commemoration.

Quote
Why is the potter's field called the "Field of Blood"?

The potter's field is called the Field of Blood due to Judas' death in the field.
Acts 1:18-19: (18) Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. (19) And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.

The potter's field is called the Field of Blood due to the coins being "blood money".
Matthew 27:7-8: (7) And they [the chief priests] consulted together and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. ( Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.
[/quote]

Both, as we saw with Judas' suicide, that he killed himself because of the guilt of the blood money and shed his own blood, and that the priests then bought this field with this same blood money, and so the meaning of the name of the field can have this dual connotation, a kind of pun if you will, which Semitic languages are mercilessly fraught with Wink

These kinds of attempts to discredit the Scriptures point all the more why they are best left to the Apostolic Professionals for interpretation, and not for the masses regardless of what Luther thought, now that Pandora's box is open look at the chaos, the mess, the heartbreaking deception that infiltrates the hearts and mind of people mistakenly believe they believe the Scriptures when really they believe the authority and interpretation of certain preachers and thinkers as much and perhaps more so than we accept any Council or the admonishment from any reverend Bishop..


I pray for such.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 03:31:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 03:38:38 PM »

I had a professor in college who said it wasnt best to use the word "infallible."  He suggested its better to use the word "trustworthy."

Id like to know what you guys think of that terminology.  I guess the point is that even if there are small little differences here and there, we can still trust that it has everything we need to know regarding salvation.

I think that's closer to the truth. I wouldn't necessarily use the phrasing you did by saying the Bible "has everything we need...regarding salvation." The Scriptures are life-giving when understood in the proper context of the Church, and we cannot remove them from that. To do so is to be Protestant. It's my opinion that we need to be careful about saying, "this is all we need to have to be saved." I believe that thinking in such a way makes our salvation a minimalistic achievement. The quintessential "what must I do to be saved." That is, tell me one thing I've got to do and I'll do it and be done. That's not what we're called to do.



I see what you mean.  This was a protestant college, although it did have some anglo-catholic leanings.  My understanding has been that the scriptures do contain the information necessary for Salvation, but the Scriptures are, like you said, meant to be understood within the context of the Church.  So I guess you could say that the Church also has all the information necessary for Salvation.

I totally understand the danger in wording it that way though.  The Scriptures should definitely be understood in the context of the Church.
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 04:57:01 PM »

...people mistakenly believe they believe the Scriptures when really they believe the authority and interpretation of certain preachers and thinkers as much and perhaps more so than we accept any Council or the admonishment from any reverend Bishop..

Or, what is even more likely, they believe they believe the Scriptures when really they believe their own personal authority and interpretation.
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 05:05:33 PM »

My Priest said that the Bible is only infallible in the sense of how it affects our relationship with God but other than that it can make mistakes such as in telling a story or history or facts etc.
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 05:48:40 PM »

I'm going to be in the minority on this but I think with all the contradictions or seeming contradictions in the New Testament only further amplifies the authenticity of what happened. What I mean is if the New Testament was a forgery, all the contradictions would not be there.
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2012, 05:49:32 PM »


“‘Then Joseph sent and invited his father Jacob and all his relatives to come to him, seventy-five in all; so Jacob went down to Egypt.’” [Acts 7:14-15a]

“… all the persons of the house of Jacob who came into Egypt were seventy.” [Genesis 46:27, NRSV]

“Your ancestors went down to Egypt seventy persons; and now the Lord your God has made you as numerous as the stars in heaven.” [Deuteronomy 10:22, NRSV]


Saint Stephen was Greek and he naturally followed the Greek version of the Torah. See the difference:

And all the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, who came out of his loins, besides the wives of the sons of Jacob, [even] all the souls were sixty-six. And the sons of Joseph, who were born to him in the land of Egypt, were nine souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came with Joseph into Egypt, were seventy-five souls. (Septuagint Genesis 46:26-27) http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/physis/septuagint-genesis/46.asp?pg=3

All the direct descendants of Jacob who went to Egypt with him were sixty-six in number. (This number does not include the wives of Jacob’s sons.) Counting the two sons of Joseph who were born to him in Egypt, all the people of the household of Jacob who were in Egypt numbered seventy. (Masoretic text Genesis 46:26-27)

It was written in the Greek version of Genesis 46:26 that nine sons of Joseph were counted probably because Joseph's grandsons born to Ephraim and Manasseh were also taken into account.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2012, 06:42:46 PM »


Where is Jacob ben Isaac buried?

Jacob was buried in Shechem in the sepulchre.
Acts 7:15-16: (15) So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. (16) And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, [the father] of Shechem.

Jacob was buried in the cave in the field of Machpelah in Hebron.
Genesis 50:13: And his [Jacob] sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and they buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which field Abraham had bought for burial property from Ephron the Hittite before Mamre.

Who did Abraham buy the tomb from where Jacob ben Isaac buried?

Jacob was buried in Shechem in the sepulchre that was bought from the sons of Emmor/Hamor.
Acts 7:15-16: (15) So Jacob went down to Egypt; and he died, he and our fathers. (16) And they were carried back to Shechem and laid in the tomb that Abraham bought for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor, [the father] of Shechem.

Jacob was buried in the cave in the field of Machpelah in Hebron that was bought from Ephron, the Hittite.
Genesis 50:13: And his [Jacob] sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and they buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which field Abraham had bought for burial property from Ephron the Hittite before Mamre.

St. Stephen gave a different account of the events because he wanted to make a theological point. He probably tried to combine and adapt the different accounts concerning the burial of the ancestors in theTorah to his statement about the patriarchs in Acts 7:8.

Then God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision, and so he became the father of Isaac and circumcised him when he was eight days old, and Isaac became the father of Jacob, and Jacob of the twelve patriarchs.

We have Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the twelve patriarchs.

Just before stating that a new era dawned in Egypt through Moses' birth, St. Stephen emphasized that the era of the patriarchs came to an end by referring to the patriarchs' death and burial and attempted to use the same order he had used in 7:8 (birth of the ancestors and the covenant of circumcision). However, he encountered a problem: Although Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were buried in the same place, we find out through the reference to Joseph that the other ancestors were buried in a different territory. Instead of saying that the patriarchs were buried in different places, St. Stephen came up with a different technique and created a new chain with regard to the theme of the patriarchs' burial. In this new chain he managed to bring all the patriarchs mentioned in 7:8 together.

Since St. Stephen knew that the tradition of buying a land for the burial of the family members started with Abraham, he said that it was Abraham who bought the burial place in verse 16. As for the specific place of the burial, he chose Shechem because Shechem both represented Jacob and established the link between Abraham and the sons of Jacob. It is written in Genesis 33:18-19 that Jacob, who was separated from his father for some time, later went to Shechem and bought a piece of land. Thus, with regard to the purchase of a place, Jacob walked in his grandfather Abraham's footsteps:

After he left Paddan Aram, Jacob came safely to the city of Shechem in the land of Canaan, and he camped near the city. Then he purchased the portion of the field where he had pitched his tent; he bought it from the sons of Hamor, Shechem’s father, for a hundred pieces of money. (Genesis 33:18-19)

Further, there is an interesting connection between Shechem and Jacob's son Joseph's settlement in Egypt; for Jacob sent his son Joseph to look for his brothers in Shechem while he was in Hebron, where Abraham was buried:

When his brothers had gone to graze their father’s flocks near Shechem, Israel said to Joseph, “Your brothers are grazing the flocks near Shechem. Come, I will send you to them.” “I’m ready,” Joseph replied. So Jacob said to him, “Go now and check on the welfare of your brothers and of the flocks, and bring me word.” So Jacob sent him from the valley of Hebron. (Genesis 37:12-14)

As St. Stephen said, Joseph’s bones were brought to Shechem and buried in the portion of the land bought by Jacob from the sons of Hamor. Consequently, Abraham represented the tradition of burial, Shechem the place where this tradition was practiced, and Joseph the patriarchs buried in this place in accordance with this tradition. These three points were brought together in St. Stephen’s speech:

1)   Abraham (represents the tradition of buying a piece of land for burial)
2)   Shechem (represents Jacob because a portion of field was bought in Shechem by Jacob)
3)   Joseph (represents the patriarchs buried in a specific portion of land)

What is mistakenly considered a set of contradictions in St. Stephen’s discourse was actually a literary device he used to make a theological point. In his peculiar order Stephen replaced Joseph with Jacob and Jacob with Abraham, linking these accounts and ancestors backwards in time. The reason why he replaced Joseph with Jacob was that Joseph was buried in the place bought by Jacob. The reason why Jacob was replaced with Abraham was similarly that Jacob was buried in the land purchased by Abraham. Thus, all the patriarchs were brought together in one chain because Jacob was related to both the place purchased by Abraham and to the place where Joseph was buried.
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2012, 07:35:57 PM »

I'm going to be in the minority on this but I think with all the contradictions or seeming contradictions in the New Testament only further amplifies the authenticity of what happened. What I mean is if the New Testament was a forgery, all the contradictions would not be there.

I don't believe you're necessarily in the minority. I'm of the same view, for what it's worth.
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« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2012, 07:49:00 PM »

If the bible was a history or a science book, then perhaps we might have a problem. The bible is a spiritual book, designed to teach us spiritual truths.
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« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2012, 08:13:20 PM »

If the bible was a history or a science book, then perhaps we might have a problem. The bible is a spiritual book, designed to teach us spiritual truths.
Yes. Not only spiritual truths, but also wisdom too.
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« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2012, 10:24:18 PM »

I'm going to be in the minority on this but I think with all the contradictions or seeming contradictions in the New Testament only further amplifies the authenticity of what happened. What I mean is if the New Testament was a forgery, all the contradictions would not be there.

I don't believe you're necessarily in the minority. I'm of the same view, for what it's worth.

Me too.
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« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2012, 10:44:31 PM »

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ, p. 70:
When you doubt the truth of any person or event described in Holy Scripture, then remember that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” as the Apostle says and is therefore true, and does not contain any imaginary persons, fables, and tales, although it includes parables, which everyone can see are not true narratives, but are written in figurative language. The whole of the word of God is single, entire, indivisible truth; and if you admit that any narrative, sentence, or word is untrue, then you sin against the truth of the whole of Holy Scripture and its primordial truth, which is God Himself. “I am the truth,” said the Lord; “Thy word is truth,” said Jesus Christ to God the Father. Thus, consider the whole of the Holy Scripture as truth; everything that is said in it has either taken place or takes place.
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 01:31:34 AM »

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ, p. 70:
When you doubt the truth of any person or event described in Holy Scripture, then remember that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” as the Apostle says and is therefore true, and does not contain any imaginary persons, fables, and tales, although it includes parables, which everyone can see are not true narratives, but are written in figurative language. The whole of the word of God is single, entire, indivisible truth; and if you admit that any narrative, sentence, or word is untrue, then you sin against the truth of the whole of Holy Scripture and its primordial truth, which is God Himself. “I am the truth,” said the Lord; “Thy word is truth,” said Jesus Christ to God the Father. Thus, consider the whole of the Holy Scripture as truth; everything that is said in it has either taken place or takes place.

Everything has taken place?

That's debatable.
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 02:38:49 AM »

If the bible was a history or a science book, then perhaps we might have a problem. The bible is a spiritual book, designed to teach us spiritual truths.
Yes. Not only spiritual truths, but also wisdom too.

yes, obtaining God's Wisdom is a pursuit of the faithful. Smiley
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 12:14:22 PM »

So was Sephen wrong in the details of that account?My question is was he just ignorant to those facts or were those things part of a tradition that was circulating at that time?

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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 12:20:23 PM »

I'm going to be in the minority on this but I think with all the contradictions or seeming contradictions in the New Testament only further amplifies the authenticity of what happened. What I mean is if the New Testament was a forgery, all the contradictions would not be there.

I agree with this, as well.

St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ, p. 70:
When you doubt the truth of any person or event described in Holy Scripture, then remember that “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” as the Apostle says and is therefore true, and does not contain any imaginary persons, fables, and tales, although it includes parables, which everyone can see are not true narratives, but are written in figurative language. The whole of the word of God is single, entire, indivisible truth; and if you admit that any narrative, sentence, or word is untrue, then you sin against the truth of the whole of Holy Scripture and its primordial truth, which is God Himself. “I am the truth,” said the Lord; “Thy word is truth,” said Jesus Christ to God the Father. Thus, consider the whole of the Holy Scripture as truth; everything that is said in it has either taken place or takes place.

Everything has taken place?

That's debatable.

I have trouble taking this statement from St. John in the same way I would take it from a Fundamentalist. I don't think he's necessarily saying that everything is literally true (i.e., occurred just as is recorded) but that it all is fully true in the sense of conveying spiritual truth. I wouldn't call, for example, the creation account(s) of Genesis "untrue", they are completely true in what they convey (i.e., an eternal God who has created all things). However, I do not believe the accounts to be literally true.
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2012, 01:11:47 PM »

I think the Jews see it like the Protestants(the Word of God) a pay big honour to it.And I think that so did some of the fathers.Correct me if i`m wrong.

Well the Jews see the Torah (first 5 books) as the direct "word of God", but yes as you said, most protestants see it similar, infallible.  I like Timon's professors word "trustworthy".

Often many "Christians" do not consider that at one point there was NOT a bible.... It's almost treated as if God wrote the book and man copied it. LOL.  (excluding Torah) They don't even understand that the books were at one point compiled together into a volume.

Then of course, some bibles have more books than others Smiley   I do like the word "trustworthy" and I think it describes things well.
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2012, 01:48:40 PM »

I think the Jews see it like the Protestants(the Word of God) a pay big honour to it.And I think that so did some of the fathers.Correct me if i`m wrong.

Well the Jews see the Torah (first 5 books) as the direct "word of God", but yes as you said, most protestants see it similar, infallible.  I like Timon's professors word "trustworthy".

Often many "Christians" do not consider that at one point there was NOT a bible.... It's almost treated as if God wrote the book and man copied it. LOL.  (excluding Torah) They don't even understand that the books were at one point compiled together into a volume.

Then of course, some bibles have more books than others Smiley   I do like the word "trustworthy" and I think it describes things well.

I'm not sure the Pentateuch had a sole author.

In fact there is an interesting verse in Psalms:

"The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it."
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2012, 01:55:27 PM »

Quote
Then of course, some bibles have more less books than others    I do like the word "trustworthy" and I think it describes things well
There ya go...fixed it.

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Often many "Christians" do not consider that at one point there was NOT a bible
At one point in history, there wasn't. Unless Adam wrote the whole sha-bang.

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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2012, 03:25:15 PM »

I'm going to be in the minority on this but I think with all the contradictions or seeming contradictions in the New Testament only further amplifies the authenticity of what happened. What I mean is if the New Testament was a forgery, all the contradictions would not be there.

I agree with you as do many other folks, including Evangelical theologians. Google "Heresy of Orthodoxy."
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 11:19:39 AM »


Often many "Christians" do not consider that at one point there was NOT a bible...

This used to be me...
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2012, 12:44:41 PM »

Quote
Then of course, some bibles have more less books than others    I do like the word "trustworthy" and I think it describes things well
There ya go...fixed it.

Quote
Often many "Christians" do not consider that at one point there was NOT a bible
At one point in history, there wasn't. Unless Adam wrote the whole sha-bang.

PP
Heh, you know, I just can't tell you the number of times I've asked people "do you know where the bible came from" and was met with complete BLANK expressions.  Then some say "the apostles wrote it".... I've even heard "Jesus wrote it".
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2012, 12:46:07 PM »

.... I've even heard "Jesus wrote it".

facepalm.
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2012, 12:49:43 PM »

I'm going to be in the minority on this but I think with all the contradictions or seeming contradictions in the New Testament only further amplifies the authenticity of what happened. What I mean is if the New Testament was a forgery, all the contradictions would not be there.

I agree with you as do many other folks, including Evangelical theologians. Google "Heresy of Orthodoxy."

Agree with you Achronos & Second Chance.

I think of the oral message being relayed that of course things will get "altered" a bit.  This is absolutely normal for anything that was relayed through people.  

However, what is great is how most of the parts really work out and are incredibly similar.  Small details may be different but the fact that so much was "mirrored" was amazing!  

Heck I can't even tell you what I had for dinner a week ago!  Consider all those details for all those decades being so accurate.  Amazing stuff.
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