OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 21, 2014, 06:31:04 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Poll
Question: Should Orthodox Churches be Part of the World Council of Churches?
Yes - 12 (23.5%)
No - 28 (54.9%)
It was OK in the past, but not now. - 5 (9.8%)
It was bad in the past, but it may be OK in the future. - 1 (2%)
Never! - 5 (9.8%)
Total Voters: 51

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodoxy and the WCC  (Read 6077 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2012, 10:37:49 AM »

Quote
These theological dialogues between the Catholics and Orthodox are local. Are we to believe that Rome will return to orthodox teachings and denounce the Latin teachings of purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Papal infallibility, celibate clergy, and to omit the filioque in the Creed? The Eastern Rite dilemma has yet to be seriously confronted. What about the Latin Patriarchs that exist in traditionally Orthodox cities?
Thats why I think in the US there has been some progress. Because we dont have the historical problems that would make such dialogues impossible in countries like Ukraine.

Quote
I personally think that any dialogue should be on a Patriarchal level. with all Orthodox bishops in total agreement on the agenda at hand
As we've discussed earlier, and in other threads that would be a feat in and of itself.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2012, 10:59:58 AM »

Has it done anything?

I'm not that hopeful about impending Chrstian unity in my lifetime. Still, we most certainly should work for it how hard it might seem.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2012, 11:00:36 AM »

Frankly, the WCC has become more or less irrelevant in the modern world so I don't lose any sleep over it.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2012, 11:48:23 AM »

Quote
I'm not that hopeful about impending Chrstian unity in my lifetime. Still, we most certainly should work for it how hard it might seem
Of course we should pray for unity, but unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it. You can not have unity in that way if half or more of the members refuse to even acknowledge a physical Church, and only say the Church is invisible.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2012, 12:10:21 PM »

pp is correct on one lever regarding unity.

However, if all Christians can speak with one voice on issues where we MUST agree - persecution, oppression etc... we can all benefit. Should we not speak out as Christians against the violence directed at Copts in Egypt, Chaldeans in Iraq, Catholics in Nigeria and Protestants in other parts of the world? If we focus on what divides us, which in many cases is insurmountable, how can we witness and speak out on that which we share? Tough call, not an easy choice indeed.

Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »

pp is correct on one lever regarding unity.

However, if all Christians can speak with one voice on issues where we MUST agree - persecution, oppression etc... we can all benefit. Should we not speak out as Christians against the violence directed at Copts in Egypt, Chaldeans in Iraq, Catholics in Nigeria and Protestants in other parts of the world? If we focus on what divides us, which in many cases is insurmountable, how can we witness and speak out on that which we share? Tough call, not an easy choice indeed.
I agree with this. The point which I probably did not make very well was if this group only issues these statements, which are needed but rather predictable and does nothing else, what good is it? This group was not formed to work towards recompiling to the One Church of Christ.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2012, 12:21:04 PM »

pp is correct on one lever regarding unity.

However, if all Christians can speak with one voice on issues where we MUST agree - persecution, oppression etc... we can all benefit. Should we not speak out as Christians against the violence directed at Copts in Egypt, Chaldeans in Iraq, Catholics in Nigeria and Protestants in other parts of the world? If we focus on what divides us, which in many cases is insurmountable, how can we witness and speak out on that which we share? Tough call, not an easy choice indeed.
I agree with this. The point which I probably did not make very well was if this group only issues these statements, which are needed but rather predictable and does nothing else, what good is it? This group was not formed to work towards recompiling to the One Church of Christ.

PP


While some militant Orthodox may disagree on this, perhaps the WCC could do more to actually encourage all who profess belief in Christ as the Savior of Mankind to be more tolerant of those who so profess but in a different manner than oneself? On the local level our county's  Council of Churches runs an ecumenical community based food bank, sponsors programs to assist senior homeowners, victims of our recent floods etc... We don't try to 'commune' together, but we do try to live together.

Less doctrinal discussion, more community action and the WCC might be a valuable witness to the apathetic world. But that is probably too much to hope for.....
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2012, 12:23:33 PM »

Quote
While some militant Orthodox may disagree on this, perhaps the WCC could do more to actually encourage all who profess belief in Christ as the Savior of Mankind to be more tolerant of those who so profess but in a different manner than oneself?
That would be a start.

Quote
On the local level our county's  Council of Churches runs an ecumenical community based food bank, sponsors programs to assist senior homeowners, victims of our recent floods etc... We don't try to 'commune' together, but we do try to live together
I wish we could do something like that here, but we're filled with churches that believe Anglicans, Orthodox, and Roman Catholics are not really Christians, so that would go over as well as a fart in Church.

Quote
Less doctrinal discussion, more community action and the WCC might be a valuable witness to the apathetic world. But that is probably too much to hope for.....
Aint that the truth.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2012, 12:36:07 PM »

Quote
While some militant Orthodox may disagree on this, perhaps the WCC could do more to actually encourage all who profess belief in Christ as the Savior of Mankind to be more tolerant of those who so profess but in a different manner than oneself?
That would be a start.

Quote
On the local level our county's  Council of Churches runs an ecumenical community based food bank, sponsors programs to assist senior homeowners, victims of our recent floods etc... We don't try to 'commune' together, but we do try to live together
I wish we could do something like that here, but we're filled with churches that believe Anglicans, Orthodox, and Roman Catholics are not really Christians, so that would go over as well as a fart in Church.

Quote
Less doctrinal discussion, more community action and the WCC might be a valuable witness to the apathetic world. But that is probably too much to hope for.....
Aint that the truth.

PP

Those groups which believe that Anglicans, Orthodox and RC's are not Christian usually shun local councils of churches and the WCC. Not much you can do about them except pray.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2012, 12:37:57 PM »

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2012, 12:47:08 PM »

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
I know it does not claim to be a church, but to me, it is very hypocritical for RC's and orthodox to sit down with folks that outright deny these Church's main claim. That they are the visible Church of Christ.

This council was not created to work towards unity, but to really just issue statements. I just think it is a waste of time.
PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2012, 12:55:44 PM »

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
I know it does not claim to be a church, but to me, it is very hypocritical for RC's and orthodox to sit down with folks that outright deny these Church's main claim. That they are the visible Church of Christ.

This council was not created to work towards unity, but to really just issue statements. I just think it is a waste of time.
PP

So we should stop working for Christian unity because it's hard and because someone might disagree with us? Smiley
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2012, 12:58:38 PM »

Quote
So we should stop working for Christian unity because it's hard and because someone might disagree with us?
They're not working on Christian unity, at least not in the way Orthodox and Roman Catholics view unity.

Issuing a joint statement is not unity. It is a joint statement ascribed to by different parties.
If the WCC wanted unity, they would meet to try to hammer out theological and practical disagreements to make the attempt to unite into one Church, as it was in the beginning. They are not doing that. It is not unity, and is a waste of time.

It is simply the NCC on a bigger scale.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,260



« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2012, 03:01:18 PM »

We already have Christian Unity.  What we are discussing is "dialogue" with pagans and heretics. 

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
I know it does not claim to be a church, but to me, it is very hypocritical for RC's and orthodox to sit down with folks that outright deny these Church's main claim. That they are the visible Church of Christ.

This council was not created to work towards unity, but to really just issue statements. I just think it is a waste of time.
PP

So we should stop working for Christian unity because it's hard and because someone might disagree with us? Smiley
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2012, 03:08:26 PM »

We already have Christian Unity.  What we are discussing is "dialogue" with pagans and heretics. 

Not really. We have ecclesiological unity. However I've yeat to hear any Orthodox of any Old Calendarist or New Calendarist variety who refuses to call the Heterodox as Christians.

Anyway, call it whathever you want. We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2012, 04:31:55 PM »

Quote
We already have Christian Unity.
We do? Evidently Im not Mr. Current Events......

Quote
We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".
We do. However, dialogue does not equal unity.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 04:53:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


We have been discussing a biased definition of unity as "uniting the Church", which obviously both Protestants and Orthodox/Catholic disagree, otherwise there wouldn't be division in the first place! Protestants have their own criticisms of the Church, and the Church has obvious criticisms about Protestantism, and so to be "united" with these is obviously stretch.  Much like the Arabs and the Israelis, we may not be able to settle our existential differences, but surely we'll have to learn to get along one way or the other.   I don't think that the unity of Christians which HIM was speaking of in 1971 was some kind of crypto-reunion, because such is realistically an impossibility.  Simply put, if Protestants want to unite, all they have to do is be baptized and convert or return from their straying and be Chrismated back into their rightful fold.  This is the only "unity" which could be acceptable to the Orthodox perspective, let alone the complications in reunion between Latins, Orthodox, and Orientals.  However, I think the unity which HIM was implying is a function of acting in unison in social and political causes.  We share inherent Christian values and political ideologies as well as cultural and psychological principles, we should be building on this.  If we can't unite as One Church, the least we can do is begin to act more in unison as a society of Christians.  It is the same as the expectations which HIM had for the plurality of the Ethiopian population, and which the American ideals aspire towards, that a pluralistic society can at least learn to get alone more or less.  While the be united is surely an impossibility, to learn to cooperate and act in unison is surely a pragmatic goal.  We all work with, attend school with, and are neighbors of many different kinds of people, and we seem to find a way to work out our differences and act in unison to get our jobs done, to succeed in our educations, and to live side by side as neighbors, shouldn't Christians, albeit theologically divergent, to at least settle for a neighborly cooperation? What is the mechanism of this acting towards unison, mutual dialogue.  What do we need for dialogue, a mutual forum for discussion.  This is precisely why HIM was a founding father of both the League of Nations, the United Nations, the Organization of African Unity, the Conference of Oriental Churches, and yes, even the World Council of Churches.

 Unity is strength.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »

Quote
We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".
We do. However, dialogue does not equal unity.

Agreed.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2012, 07:05:58 PM »

so perhaps its time we all act like it instead of continually splintering into Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Byzantine-Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Lutheran, etc etc..

At the risk of going off on a tangent, Roman Catholics, Byzantine-Catholics, and Melkite Catholics are already in full communion with one another.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2012, 07:09:16 PM »

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

But what about the possibility of retaining membership but at the same time avoiding the hoop-jumping? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really wondering.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2012, 07:13:19 PM »

No, Habte, what Selassie is assterting here is that the Church has always been divided and that includes the Protestants. The problem here is the Protestants were never a part of the Church nor did they protest against the Orthodox Church.

Indeed the Reformation happened at a time when East and West were estranged from each other. I'd say that's a key reason that the Reformation was, well, the way that it was.

We should not even be dialouging with them, insofar as union.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,260



« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2012, 12:17:01 AM »

We already have Christian Unity.  What we are discussing is "dialogue" with pagans and heretics. 

Not really. We have ecclesiological unity. However I've yeat to hear any Orthodox of any Old Calendarist or New Calendarist variety who refuses to call the Heterodox as Christians.

Anyway, call it whathever you want. We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".

If I can be a Christian outside the Church, then I guess that I do not need the Church.  We have no obligation for dialogue.  Our obligation is to proclaim the Truth, not engage and be part of pagan rituals and common prayer with heretics.  Proclamation is a one way process.  We do not need dialogue since the heterodox have nothing to offer us, if we are indeed the True Body of Christ.  The message that we send, regardless of our caveates and weasle words, is that there is more than one Church, and that it is divided (or there would be no need for unity).  Membership is a form of unity.  Observation is not.  The WCC is Antichrist and taints us by our membership.  I have seen a lot of cooperation among religions at the local level without them praying together, holding rituals together and the like.  Why are these things required at such a high and very public arena.  The Orthodox membership in the WCC is a great stumbling block to other Christians (yes, privately I believe some of them are, in spite of what some of the Fathers say).   
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Punch
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,260



« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2012, 12:17:49 AM »

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

But what about the possibility of retaining membership but at the same time avoiding the hoop-jumping? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really wondering.)

What is so important about membership?  Isn't being a member of Christ's Body enough?
Logged

Orthodox only because of God and His Russians.
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,576



« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2012, 01:22:22 AM »

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

But what about the possibility of retaining membership but at the same time avoiding the hoop-jumping? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really wondering.)

What is so important about membership?  Isn't being a member of Christ's Body enough?

And that is a major problem with having "membership" in such a body.  Can a patriarchate be a "member" of anything else other than Christ's Church?  There is something ecclesiologically very wrong with that.   We can have "representatives" but cannot be as a Body a member of some other body.   
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2012, 03:21:30 AM »

If I can be a Christian outside the Church, then I guess that I do not need the Church.

Of course the Heterodox can't be Christians in the same sense as we are.

Quote
We have no obligation for dialogue.

We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.
- St. Mark of Ephesus

We seek not conquest but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.
- St Gregory of Nazianzen

Quote
Our obligation is to proclaim the Truth, not engage and be part of pagan rituals and common prayer with heretics.

Ecumenism does not need common prayers and Pagan rituals. I generally refrain from common prayers with non-Orthodox myself.

Quote
We do not need dialogue since the heterodox have nothing to offer us, if we are indeed the True Body of Christ.

We need dialogue so that the Heterodox understand our doctrine and so that we understand the various Heterodox doctrines. And sometimes so that some Heterodox will understand that our doctrines are better than their own doctrines.

Quote
The message that we send, regardless of our caveates and weasle words, is that there is more than one Church, and that it is divided (or there would be no need for unity).  Membership is a form of unity.

I'm a member of an Finnish Pentecostal internet forum. Does that make me a Pentecostal? Smiley
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2012, 10:47:20 AM »

Quote
What is so important about membership?  Isn't being a member of Christ's Body enough?
Thats the thing. most of these folks adhere to them ALL being a member of Christ's invisible Church. This poses a slight problem....

Quote
There is something ecclesiologically very wrong with that.   We can have "representatives" but cannot be as a Body a member of some other body.
I think that would be fair to do.

Quote
I'm a member of an Finnish Pentecostal internet forum. Does that make me a Pentecostal?
No that makes you a more frequent partaker of headache medicine Wink

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,882


« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2012, 11:02:51 AM »

I am just posting to the original point & not in step otherwise. I voted, "no" because I think the ecclesial & theological breakdown in the "main line" Protestant churches has become irreparable & any concession to it would be like introducing a virus into the ecclesia (non tradtional marriage, clergy gender issues etc.). True there remain "orthodox" Protestants & I  pray for their perseverance to Christian faith. Perhaps dialogue outside the WCC & with tradtional leanin Christians like the confessing Methodists, Anglican Catholics etc. 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:05:06 AM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2012, 03:51:00 PM »

Thats the thing. most of these folks adhere to them ALL being a member of Christ's invisible Church. This poses a slight problem....

Most of them probably haven't heard very much in the way of alternate theories.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2012, 03:54:03 PM »

Thats the thing. most of these folks adhere to them ALL being a member of Christ's invisible Church. This poses a slight problem....

Most of them probably haven't heard very much in the way of alternate theories.
Quite possible Smiley

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
vasily
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 189



« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2012, 08:41:26 AM »

If I can be a Christian outside the Church, then I guess that I do not need the Church.

Of course the Heterodox can't be Christians in the same sense as we are.

Quote
We have no obligation for dialogue.

We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.
- St. Mark of Ephesus

We seek not conquest but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.
- St Gregory of Nazianzen

Quote
Our obligation is to proclaim the Truth, not engage and be part of pagan rituals and common prayer with heretics.

Ecumenism does not need common prayers and Pagan rituals. I generally refrain from common prayers with non-Orthodox myself.

Quote
We do not need dialogue since the heterodox have nothing to offer us, if we are indeed the True Body of Christ.

We need dialogue so that the Heterodox understand our doctrine and so that we understand the various Heterodox doctrines. And sometimes so that some Heterodox will understand that our doctrines are better than their own doctrines.

Quote
The message that we send, regardless of our caveates and weasle words, is that there is more than one Church, and that it is divided (or there would be no need for unity).  Membership is a form of unity.

I'm a member of an Finnish Pentecostal internet forum. Does that make me a Pentecostal? Smiley


 Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines? The truth is avoided when one seeks common ground. It is they, the heterodox, who have separated themselves from the true faith, the true theology and teachings. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines. We have become delusional in our thinking that our presence is vital in any of these church councils. We have become distracted and in some aspects have tried to fit in. The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church. Lectures and other programs should be scheduled. We invite you to come and see. This should be done on a parish level and even on a community level, if there exists more than one Orthodox community in the area. We should be working together to go and teach all nations.
Logged
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2012, 09:00:31 AM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.
Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2012, 12:45:09 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.
Logged
vasily
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 189



« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2012, 12:14:53 PM »

 What has been gained by the involvement of the Orthodox in any of these ecumenical circles? Has our presence ,after all these years as members, produced anything positive?
Has any of the heterodox seen the true light and converted to Orthodoxy en masse, because of our presence?


 The involvement of the Orthodox, from the very beginning, was to present an opportunity for an articulate Orthodox witness, as the Orthodox Church is the True Faith. This idea has not become reality. The heterodox have left or separated from the True Faith, changed theology, teachings etc. They have become the lost sheep and it is our responsibility to have them return to the true fold. Has this occurred because of our involvement in any of these ecumenical movements? Have our discussions with the heterodox and our understanding of them proved anything?  Like I stated previously, some who support our involvement have become delusional in their thinking that something positive will occur.

 I cannot stress the importance of our involvement in missionary work, though certain community programs, lectures, ethnic fairs(this is a great opportunity to hand out Orthodox materials), etc.

Missionary work is contradictory to ecumenism. I am totally unaware that the Orthodox were doing any kind of missionary work at these ecumenical council meetings. I do not recall any large groups from these ecumenical meetings converting to Orthodoxy.
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2012, 12:27:58 PM »

Quote
In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists
nobody is bearing false witness, I just think that Orthodoxy does not need to "play house" with other groups that have no intention of having 1 united Christian Church.

Quote
I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool
You dont need to join a group and be identified with others to know what they believe.

Quote
What has been gained by the involvement of the Orthodox in any of these ecumenical circles? Has our presence ,after all these years as members, produced anything positive?
Has any of the heterodox seen the true light and converted to Orthodoxy en masse, because of our presence?
I'll answer, since someone said WAY back that folks have converted because of such things, but gave no evidence because non exists. no, I am pretty darn sure nobody has converted for it.


Quote
The involvement of the Orthodox, from the very beginning, was to present an opportunity for an articulate Orthodox witness, as the Orthodox Church is the True Faith. This idea has not become reality. The heterodox have left or separated from the True Faith, changed theology, teachings etc. They have become the lost sheep and it is our responsibility to have them return to the true fold. Has this occurred because of our involvement in any of these ecumenical movements? Have our discussions with the heterodox and our understanding of them proved anything?  Like I stated previously, some who support our involvement have become delusional in their thinking that something positive will occur
+1


One more thing, let us look at the Apostles and the Fathers. Did the Apostles form a a group to "understand and be united with our brothers in Judaism?" Nope. What about the schismatic churches? Did Orthodoxy form a group to better "understand" and "stand with" the Nestorians after they were deemed heretical? Nope. Why should we?


PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
vasily
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 189



« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2012, 01:58:45 PM »

These ecumenical councils have included Jews, Muslims, animists, Hindus, and other non-Christian groups. I have absolutely nothing against learning about other religions, but I have no real need to understand their so called doctrines, since Orthodox, is the true faith.My purpose when confronted by a non-Orthodox ,is to educate them about the Orthodox Faith, not find commonalities. Do you discuss doctrines when confronted by a Jehovah Witness? As the late Father Florovsky stated," Reunification will only happen by way of a process of recognizing the delusion and pride which have caused schisms and by way of repentance." The Orthodox Church is Living Tradition, which is sacred and Holy. The Orthodox Church, in witnessing Christ among the heterodox, can never regard herself as just another denomination among a multitude of others, or another branch of some wider Church. The Orthodox are not linked to another church outside of Orthodoxy. The WCC would have you think otherwise, since we all pray to the same God and that we should embrace all religions. Joint prayer, joint cooperation, and co-signing of its pronouncements help this confederation  to cultivate its consciousness as an 'ecumenical church", embracing everyone and stressing our commonalities. What place does Holy Orthodoxy have in a pan-heretical organization which has turned into a club for religious people and groups in which, indeed, it is not necessary that they even be Christian. What real contribution does the Orthodox make by remaining in these types of "clubs"? Has our presence spread the Truth of Orthodoxy? Has the heterodox returned to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and Church through dialogue in these ecumenical councils? Are the Orthodox, who feel the dire necessity, to continue to participate in these ecumenical clubs finally accepting an ecclesiological minimalism, a unity with the heterodox that is merely ethical in nature, a unity of syncretistic co-existence?
Logged
vasily
Moderated
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox church in america
Posts: 189



« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2012, 02:09:15 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense. Any faith outside of Orthodoxy is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  It is "they" that need to come back to the True Faith and denounce any false teachings.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2012, 02:54:05 PM »

vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,303


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »

Quote
vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.
I think by that, vasily is meaning like the WCC, the NCC, et al. Not THE councils.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2012, 03:02:46 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense. Any faith outside of Orthodoxy is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  It is "they" that need to come back to the True Faith and denounce any false teachings.

If you ever have the opportunity, I would encourage you to ask Bishop Michael of the NY/NJ OCA Diocese, or Metropolitan Jonah for that matter, if this statement is, as you label it 'pure nonsense.' I suspect you would take issue with the response.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,439



« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2012, 03:04:36 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

Alpo and podkarpatska stop being so reasonable.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,601



« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2012, 03:43:56 PM »

Quote
In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists
nobody is bearing false witness

Many people most certainly are doing just that. Or have we forgot propaganda about worship of Mary? Or that we try to save ourselves by works and not at all by faith? etc.

Quote
One more thing, let us look at the Apostles and the Fathers.

Like St. Basil, St Gregory of Nazianzen and St. Mark of Ephesus?

Quote
Did the Apostles form a a group to "understand and be united with our brothers in Judaism?"

Inter-religious dialogue and ecumenism are two different things.

Quote
What about the schismatic churches? Did Orthodoxy form a group to better "understand" and "stand with" the Nestorians after they were deemed heretical? Nope.

Somehow I doubt that the Fathers refused to listen and learn what they believe in and pontificated on an internet forum instead. Smiley

Quote
Why should we?

Because we're Orthodox Christians.

Quote from: vasily
Missionary work is contradictory to ecumenism.

Why?

Pure nonsense. Any faith outside of Orthodoxy is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  It is "they" that need to come back to the True Faith and denounce any false teachings.

I don't think this is how the Fathers approached the issue.

EDIT: The funny thing is that I'm actually rather critical of ecumenism and here I find myself defending it.  Tongue
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 03:52:25 PM by Alpo » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2012, 03:51:21 PM »

Quote from: podkarpatska
I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense.

So you're saying that it could never happen that "expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept" appear to be at odds with Orthodox teaching but really aren't.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 03:52:27 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,104



« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2012, 03:55:47 PM »

The funny thing is that I'm actually rather critical of ecumenism and here I find myself defending it.  Tongue

I'm rather critical of ecumenism, but on OCnet I feel like I'm always defending it!  Shocked   Grin

« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 03:56:29 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,439



« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2012, 03:58:20 PM »

The funny thing is that I'm actually rather critical of ecumenism and here I find myself defending it.  Tongue

I'm rather critical of ecumenism, but on OCnet I feel like I'm always defending it!  Shocked   Grin



I have the same relationship with Roman Catholicism.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,206


SS Cyril and Methodius Church, Mercer, PA


WWW
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2012, 04:07:30 PM »

Quote from: podkarpatska
I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense.


So you're saying that it could never happen that "expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept" appear to be at odds with Orthodox teaching but really aren't.

As a simplistic example consider that Academic A may describe Mount Everest as " a very big mountain." Academic B may describe Everest as "a really tall mountain." Academic C may describe Everest as "a very tall, really big and 'difficult to climb mountain'. A, B and C are expressing variations of the same concept, but using different descriptive methods to convey each one's point.

If they are not discussing mountain climbing, A and B may take offense at C's gratuitous inclusion of the fact that Everest is difficult to climb. A and B may quibble about the distinction between big and tall. And so on....

That being said, as to that tiny, little fragment of a concept regarding the nature of the mountain, one can not say that A, B and C have a meaningful disagreement.

Now, if A asserts that Everest is a very big mountain, B asserts that 'bigness' is a relative concept and C wonders how can we determine what is, or is not, really a mountain; but if it is a mountain, than it is really tall and very big - then you have an insolvable dilemma.

Discussion - not compromise - allows one to separate the first example of disagreement from the second one. At that point you can begin to persuade B and C that there are such things as mountains and that  GPS technology can accurately determine their size.

Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.155 seconds with 74 queries.