Topic: Orthodoxy and the WCC

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

What say ye?



Selam

[Rufus]

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Abune Paulos


High resolution, please credit: Peter Williams/WCC
WCC president (Oriental Orthodox)
His Holiness Abune Paulos is the patriarch of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which has a membership of 40 million. He has been instrumental in encouraging interfaith dialogue in Ethiopia, and has participated in many international meetings, including the World Economic Forum and the World Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders at the United Nations. He has shown keen interest in youth, women's issues and HIV/AIDS, acting as patron of the national programme on HIV/AIDS. In recognition of his outstanding contributions to the protection and welfare of refugees, he was awarded the Nansen Medal for Africa by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in 2000. He has served as a member of central committee and the Faith and Order commission, and attended the Nairobi assembly.

http://www.oikoumene.org/who-are-we/organization-structure/governing-bodies/biographies-of-wcc-officers-and-presidents/abune-paulos.html

By the way, HIM Haile Selassie was a major part of the formation of the WCC

January 12, 1971
Mr. Chairman, Eminences and Distinguished Members of the Central Committee,
It is with feelings of great spiritual and personal happiness that We witness the convening of this meeting of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches in Our capital city.
This is particularly so as it is more timely than ever for followers of Christ to gather to deliberate on current vital issues affecting international peace and justice.
Man's egoistic motives and his selfish desire to pursue exclusively his own individual interests, thus failing in his God-given task of following the goal of the unity of all, is witness to the feebleness of human nature, and constitutes the major obstacle to the unity of all Christians towards which we strive.
How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves?
Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together, it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit.
We Christians living by the faith of Christ, the Head and Pillar on whom the Church is founded, cannot escape the responsibility to work for the peace of the world, and to ensure equality for all human beings created by God, lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings, created in the image of God, being deprived by virtue of their color or their poverty, of the benefits and blessings that are the birthright of every man and all men, and suffering in agony, cast forth from the pale of full human existence.
Man does not live by bread alone. The spiritual life does not deny, however, the need for bread. Therefore, the spiritual life of humanity must necessarily include the common aspiration of all of us for a better standard of living and for greater improvement in the quality of human existence.
May God our Creator, the Helper and guiding Light of us all, grant you His wisdom that your meeting may bear fruit for His glory. We sincerely wish you all success and pray that God may lead you to that unity which Christians all over the world eagerly await.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1758-6623.1971.tb01118.x/asset/j.1758-6623.1971.tb01118.x_p1.png?v=1&s=5dedcc78fc4d7a3122c5e37d64c2667940c8ad26


stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Maria]

Hey, HabteSelassie, would it be possible to downsize that pic?
I cannot even see the man's face, but only about 1/4 of it at one time.

Anyway, the entire idea of the WCC and the NCC is scary.
Do we need a one world religion reduced to its minimum?

I voted NO before I saw NEVER.

[scamandrius]

It's a waste of time.  The Protestants continue to drift further and further away from the orthodox teachings of Christianity and they have little to no interest in Orthodoxy save for trying to drag us down the same road of relativism.  As long as Orthodox Christians remain faithful to the teachings of the church, the more the WCC will try to exert influence on our hierarchs to get them to accept clearly heterodox if not out right heretical teachings all for the sake of meaningless "unity." 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

As a someone who loves His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selasie I and has always trusted his judgment, I must admit that I have never been comfortable with the Orthodox participation in the WCC. I haven't actually voted in my own poll yet, but I think I'm going to vote that it may have been OK in the past but that it's not OK now. Too much potential for moral pollution and theological compromise. The Church can be thoroughly evangelistic without making strange bedfellows. As for Abuna Paulos, I cannot pass judgment. He is controversial to say the least, but I confess that I'm not familiar enough with the issues regarding the unfortunate division between the contesting EOTC Patriarchates to state an opinion. I pray for Abuna Paulos as for all Orthodox leaders. May God grant him wisdom.


Selam

[Andrew21091]

It's a waste of time.  The Protestants continue to drift further and further away from the orthodox teachings of Christianity and they have little to no interest in Orthodoxy save for trying to drag us down the same road of relativism.  As long as Orthodox Christians remain faithful to the teachings of the church, the more the WCC will try to exert influence on our hierarchs to get them to accept clearly heterodox if not out right heretical teachings all for the sake of meaningless "unity." 

I agree with you completely and I do see a lot of the relativism that you are talking about. I recently heard of some Orthodox converts who are all about uniting with Evangelical Protestants on the idea that they aren't that different (these are the same people who will talk about how different and heretical Roman Catholics are!). I think the Orthodox Church should take a similar position of Rome and withdraw because I do have a fear that if the participation continues and more converts from Protestants believe that Evangelicals are "no different" then I fear that Orthodoxy (in America at least) will become no different than just another Protestant denomination that has Saints and veneration of Mary (but not as much as the Catholics as some claim).

[Shiny]

divided for many centuries up till now,

Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

[Andrew21091]

divided for many centuries up till now,

Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

What are you talking about? Our bishops are hardly ever on the same page.

[primuspilus]

divided for many centuries up till now,

Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

What are you talking about? Our bishops are hardly ever on the same page.

But they are members of the Body, which is I believe what is being intimated here

Now, my take. The WCC is not something that our Church should be a member of. I mentioned this in another thread about my argument. I'll see if I cant find it.


PP

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

divided for many centuries up till now,

Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

What are you talking about? Our bishops are hardly ever on the same page.

But they are members of the Body, which is I believe what is being intimated here

Now, my take. The WCC is not something that our Church should be a member of. I mentioned this in another thread about my argument. I'll see if I cant find it.


PP

I can respect y'all opinions and understand the skepticism and apprehensions, I have them as well, but I am obliged to follow the discipline and example of both my Emperor and my Patriarchs, in their continual involvement with the WCC since its inception, and HIM Haile Selassie was a personal fan, as HIM was extending the reach of Ecumenism beyond just the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox dialogues of the 1960s where HIM was declared the Defender of the Faith, but also with the Protestants and Evangelical groups who were ministering across Africa.  HIM had the opposite of the divide and conquer Imperial strategy, HIM was a fan of the co-opt in and therefore have the agency to keep an eye on approach to international and inter-African and inter-faith affairs. 

HIM played the chess game of realpolitik far to well, even in the context of the Faith.  After all, read the Orthodox history, the Councils, the Anathemas, realistically sometimes conflict in the past has been far more a matter of personalities than doctrine.

I accept the Ethiopian Church's involvement with the WCC as a matter of faith, which is all I can do in reverence to the discipline of my Holy Mother the Church. I go where she goes trusting in God Almighty.  After all, sometimes she is commissioned to unfriendly territory to evangelize herself

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Punch]

I voted NEVER.  The WCC is nothing other than a tool of the Antichrist.

[Father H]

The WCC is a complete waste of time.  The reps have to jump through hoops to remain true to Christianity. 

[JamesRottnek]

The WCC is a complete and total waste of time.  I would much prefer to see any and all resources (including time) spent on WCC matters, by the Orthodox, used instead on EO and OO reconciliation.  That is something that has the potential to bear fruit BEFORE the second coming of Christ.

Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.

[orthonorm]

I      you not. I really thought Gebre was suggesting the OC have something to do with WC.

This I could get behind and actually pull off logistically at my parish. Easily walking distance from one another.

[Shiny]

Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.

Thank you. Truly.

[Cavaradossi]

I voted NEVER.  The WCC is nothing other than a tool of the Antichrist.

Bingo.

[HabteSelassie]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.

You are of course free to your opinions, and I of course have already expressed my own apprehensions about this organization, however (A) there seems be to be no reason to make it personal about HIM Haile Selassie I and further make accusations of heresy against the Defender of the Faith and (B) I am duty bound to respect the discipline of my jurisdiction, and if His Holiness Abune Paulos actively works with the WCC, as has the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church for some decades now, I must respect and defend such as a matter of faith.

Further, Gebre Menfes Kidus is the OP, and I am equally obliged to let that brother know where our jurisdiction stands on this matter as he shares such and further asked the question specifically.

It seems we need to look at this speech again folks read it a bit wrong:

Mr. Chairman, Eminences and Distinguished Members of the Central Committee,
It is with feelings of great spiritual and personal happiness that We witness the convening of this meeting of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches in Our capital city.
This is particularly so as it is more timely than ever for followers of Christ to gather to deliberate on current vital issues affecting international peace and justice.
Man's egoistic motives and his selfish desire to pursue exclusively his own individual interests, thus failing in his God-given task of following the goal of the unity of all, is witness to the feebleness of human nature, and constitutes the major obstacle to the unity of all Christians towards which we strive.
How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves?
Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together, it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit.
We Christians living by the faith of Christ, the Head and Pillar on whom the Church is founded, cannot escape the responsibility to work for the peace of the world, and to ensure equality for all human beings created by God, lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings, created in the image of God, being deprived by virtue of their color or their poverty, of the benefits and blessings that are the birthright of every man and all men, and suffering in agony, cast forth from the pale of full human existence.
Man does not live by bread alone. The spiritual life does not deny, however, the need for bread. Therefore, the spiritual life of humanity must necessarily include the common aspiration of all of us for a better standard of living and for greater improvement in the quality of human existence.
May God our Creator, the Helper and guiding Light of us all, grant you His wisdom that your meeting may bear fruit for His glory. We sincerely wish you all success and pray that God may lead you to that unity which Christians all over the world eagerly await.

If folks can't see that the Church is divided, y'all are simply lying to yourselves.  The Body of Christ is eternally unified, but folks continue to assert their imaginary divisions, and this is what HIM is addressing, that indeed the Church is of course united as One Body, so perhaps its time we all act like it instead of continually splintering into Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Byzantine-Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Lutheran, etc etc..

HIM couldn't have made up such a silly story if HIM tried, let alone the reality that HIM was just pointing  out history.  Further, lets focus on the highlight of that speech, " lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings."  Unity is strength. Let us pray for such as HIM ended HIM speech saying "We sincerely with you all the success and pray that God may lead you to that unity.."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

[Shiny]

No, Habte, what Selassie is assterting here is that the Church has always been divided and that includes the Protestants. The problem here is the Protestants were never a part of the Church nor did they protest against the Orthodox Church. We should not even be dialouging with them, insofar as union.

[JamesRottnek]

Habte, if Ethiopian Orthodox are required to "defend as a matter of faith" the decision by your hierarch to be in the WCC, your faith and mine have nothing to do with each other.

Further, unity isn't strength.  God is strength.  The Church is the Body of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within each of its members.  Therefore, the Church is strength, no imaginary need for "unity."  The Church is made NO stronger by John Q. Smith joining.  It is made NO weaker by Jacob Bobson leaving.  It is not, in ANY way, harmed by the existence of schisms, because the truth is that those who are not in the Church - because of schism - are not in the Church.  They have not wounded the Body of Christ, but merely themselves. 

[Gebre Menfes Kidus]

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.

You are of course free to your opinions, and I of course have already expressed my own apprehensions about this organization, however (A) there seems be to be no reason to make it personal about HIM Haile Selassie I and further make accusations of heresy against the Defender of the Faith and (B) I am duty bound to respect the discipline of my jurisdiction, and if His Holiness Abune Paulos actively works with the WCC, as has the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church for some decades now, I must respect and defend such as a matter of faith.

Further, Gebre Menfes Kidus is the OP, and I am equally obliged to let that brother know where our jurisdiction stands on this matter as he shares such and further asked the question specifically.

It seems we need to look at this speech again folks read it a bit wrong:

Mr. Chairman, Eminences and Distinguished Members of the Central Committee,
It is with feelings of great spiritual and personal happiness that We witness the convening of this meeting of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches in Our capital city.
This is particularly so as it is more timely than ever for followers of Christ to gather to deliberate on current vital issues affecting international peace and justice.
Man's egoistic motives and his selfish desire to pursue exclusively his own individual interests, thus failing in his God-given task of following the goal of the unity of all, is witness to the feebleness of human nature, and constitutes the major obstacle to the unity of all Christians towards which we strive.
How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves?
Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together, it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit.
We Christians living by the faith of Christ, the Head and Pillar on whom the Church is founded, cannot escape the responsibility to work for the peace of the world, and to ensure equality for all human beings created by God, lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings, created in the image of God, being deprived by virtue of their color or their poverty, of the benefits and blessings that are the birthright of every man and all men, and suffering in agony, cast forth from the pale of full human existence.
Man does not live by bread alone. The spiritual life does not deny, however, the need for bread. Therefore, the spiritual life of humanity must necessarily include the common aspiration of all of us for a better standard of living and for greater improvement in the quality of human existence.
May God our Creator, the Helper and guiding Light of us all, grant you His wisdom that your meeting may bear fruit for His glory. We sincerely wish you all success and pray that God may lead you to that unity which Christians all over the world eagerly await.

If folks can't see that the Church is divided, y'all are simply lying to yourselves.  The Body of Christ is eternally unified, but folks continue to assert their imaginary divisions, and this is what HIM is addressing, that indeed the Church is of course united as One Body, so perhaps its time we all act like it instead of continually splintering into Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Byzantine-Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Lutheran, etc etc..

HIM couldn't have made up such a silly story if HIM tried, let alone the reality that HIM was just pointing  out history.  Further, lets focus on the highlight of that speech, " lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings."  Unity is strength. Let us pray for such as HIM ended HIM speech saying "We sincerely with you all the success and pray that God may lead you to that unity.."

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Good thoughts brother. Like you, I too defer to the wisdom of His Majesty and the security of the Tewahedo Church. That's why I included the option of "It was OK in the past but not OK now." I wonder if His Majesty would support the EOTC's involvement in the WCC today? I have no idea. But I think it's worth reconsidering. His Majesty dealt with so many important issues, being politically shrewd without compromising or sacificing Orthodox truth and Orthodox values.

As for whether or not the Church is divided, this is my humble opinion: The Church itself cannot be divided, for Christ preserves it always. However, there are most certainly internal divisions within the Church. And I agree that His Majesty was referring to these internal divisions that must be ameliorated through the reconciliation that is born form humility, love, and understanding.

Christianity is fractured, but the Church is not. Ecumenical efforts to unify Christianity are futile at best and demonic at worst. But ecumenical efforts to heal the internal divisions within Orthodoxy are quite necessary and productive in my humble opinion.


Selam

[Alpo]

I voted for "Yes" provided that it doesn't contradict with Orthodox ecclesiology. Despite all the nonsense connected with ecumenism I still believe that we should work for Christian unity no matter how hard it might seem.

[vasily]

 No! No! No! The Orthodox involvement in any of these ecumenical movements have been pursued blindly and are delusional in their thinking that something positive will take place, that our presence is needed and that some "common ground" will be pursued or achieved. A true dialogue implies an exchange of views with a possibility of persuading the participant to attain an agreement. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

Union with all the Orthodox Churches should come first, so that peace and love will exist among the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful. Then let's contemplate union with the other confessions , only if they sincerely desire to embrace Orthodox dogmas, theology and traditions.


 

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

No! No! No! The Orthodox involvement in any of these ecumenical movements have been pursued blindly and are delusional in their thinking that something positive will take place, that our presence is needed and that some "common ground" will be pursued or achieved. A true dialogue implies an exchange of views with a possibility of persuading the participant to attain an agreement. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

Union with all the Orthodox Churches should come first, so that peace and love will exist among the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful. Then let's contemplate union with the other confessions , only if they sincerely desire to embrace Orthodox dogmas, theology and traditions.


 

I agree with you but I do think that we should have observer status in order to keep abreast of developments and to provide continuing witness. 

[primuspilus]

No! No! No! The Orthodox involvement in any of these ecumenical movements have been pursued blindly and are delusional in their thinking that something positive will take place, that our presence is needed and that some "common ground" will be pursued or achieved. A true dialogue implies an exchange of views with a possibility of persuading the participant to attain an agreement. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

Union with all the Orthodox Churches should come first, so that peace and love will exist among the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful. Then let's contemplate union with the other confessions , only if they sincerely desire to embrace Orthodox dogmas, theology and traditions.


 

I agree with you but I do think that we should have observer status in order to keep abreast of developments and to provide continuing witness. 

+1,000

[Monk Vasyl]

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

[Ansgar]

 ^I agree

[Father H]

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

[Father H]

I voted for "Yes" provided that it doesn't contradict with Orthodox ecclesiology. Despite all the nonsense connected with ecumenism I still believe that we should work for Christian unity no matter how hard it might seem.

No doubt.  But the question is whether the WCC with its semi-pagan prayer rituals and ridiculous leanings toward trans-galactic Orkan heresies is the forum in which this can even happen realistically.  It is just a bizarre organization at this point.  Just go and attend as an observer one of the state versions of the NCC meetings.   You'll just feel creeped out and dirty from attending.  I speak from experience.  There are more respectible forums that do the same thing and cannot be mistaken for a commerical for a sci-fi film. 

[vasily]

Personally, I am against even observer participation. The Orthodox Church in North America has many issues to confront, such as the jurisdictional and unity problems. I am a firm believer in missionary work to spread and teach about the Orthodox Faith. Our involvement in any of these ecumenical circles has not accomplished or changed anything. Have converts come to the Orthodox Church because of our presence in these movements?

As a side note, I can not understand why certain Orthodox jurisdictions are still involved with these Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions. Have any real problems been resolved?

[primuspilus]

As a side note, I can not understand why certain Orthodox jurisdictions are still involved with these Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions. Have any real problems been resolved?

From what i've read and heard, in the US alot has been accomplished.

PP

[Alpo]

Have converts come to the Orthodox Church because of our presence in these movements?

Yes.

There are more respectible forums that do the same thing and cannot be mistaken for a commerical for a sci-fi film. 

LOL. I meant exactly these kind of things with "all the nonsense connected with ecumenism". Still, are there any alternatives to WCC? Are there any other global organizations for ecumenical discissussion?

[primuspilus]

Yes.

Source please. I'd LOVE to read someone saying "I was Muslim then converted to Orthodoxy because of the WCC, or I was Baptist and saw the error of my ways at a WCC meeting and came back to the original Church....

I meant exactly these kind of things with "all the nonsense connected with ecumenism". Still, are there any alternatives to WCC?

Such as, alternatives to sitting around and making predcictable statements and doing really nothing? Yes.

Are there any other global organizations for ecumenical discissussion?

I dont know about global, but there are other groups formed nationally (NCC) and they're equally worthless.

Direct dialogue is best. In America, real progress is being made between the Orthodox and the Roman Church. That is how it should be done. These 2 churches want to find common ground, and pray for rejoining. When is the last time you heard a 7th day adventist or a baptist pray the same thing? I say look no further than Western Rite Orthodoxy. That had nothing to do with some grand ecumenical group, but direct communication between Episcopalians and the Orthodox.

These grand congresses of denominations do nothing but diminish what Orthodoxy says. That we are the Church of Christ handed down from the Apostles and that we are the fullness of the faith and the Body. Sitting around a round table with these folks who have no intention of rejoining the Church is a waste of time and money that can better be used to minister to the faithful and spread the Gospel.

Everything else, as King Solomon said so succinctly, is vanity.

PP

[Father H]

Have converts come to the Orthodox Church because of our presence in these movements?

Yes.

There are more respectible forums that do the same thing and cannot be mistaken for a commerical for a sci-fi film. 

LOL. I meant exactly these kind of things with "all the nonsense connected with ecumenism". Still, are there any alternatives to WCC? Are there any other global organizations for ecumenical discissussion?

No there are no worldwide orgs.  I was remarking on the NCC and state chapters in particular.   The only worldwide "orgs" are not organizations, but individual dialogues (Orthodox-RCC, Orthodox-Anglican, Orthodox-Lutheran, etc.).  These probably are better than an organization anyway.  How can we be "members" of a para-ecclesial organization anyway? 

[Alpo]

Yes.

Source please. I'd LOVE to read someone saying "I was Muslim then converted to Orthodoxy because of the WCC, or I was Baptist and saw the error of my ways at a WCC meeting and came back to the original Church....

Learn Finnish first. Anyway, they'd probably be something like "Gee, they aren't Mary-worshipping Pagans after all!"

Such as, alternatives to sitting around and making predcictable statements and doing really nothing? Yes.

I think clearing the misconceptions is more than nothing. The most staunchly anti-ecumenist folks seem to be those who doesn't know what other Christians actually believe. And by "staunchly anti-ecumenist" I don't mean strict adherence to Orthodox doctrines. I'm rather rigid on that area myself.

How can we be "members" of a para-ecclesial organization anyway?  

It's not para-ecclesial organization if we're talking about WCC. I believe there is a document that clearly states that membership in WCC doesn't mean accepting other members as legitimate local churches.

[mike]

I believe there is a document that clearly states that membership in WCC doesn't mean accepting other members as legitimate local churches.

Ditto.

[primuspilus]

I believe there is a document that clearly states that membership in WCC doesn't mean accepting other members as legitimate local churches

Saying that means nothing. Actions mean far more. So you mean to tell me that all these folks sit down together knowing that they're not the legitimate Chruch? Then these pople are far more stupid than I originally thought.

PP

[Father H]

"Membership," its a problem, no? 

[scamandrius]

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

Our hierarchs and representatives can just sit there and be insulted by the more "enlightened" Protestants.

[Father H]

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

Our hierarchs and representatives can just sit there and be insulted by the more "enlightened" Protestants.

I don't know.  I don't think that people who watch the circus from the stands are insulted by the clowns and jugglers.  But still does not hurt to be in proximity just in case they want to bail on the circus owners and use their talents for more noble things. 

[Alpo]

Actions mean far more.

What actions you had in mind?

So you mean to tell me that all these folks sit down together knowing that they're not the legitimate Chruch? Then these pople are far more stupid than I originally thought.

I find it as an expression of good manners. They might think that we are a little eccentric and old-fashioned but tolerating others while disagreeing with them is rather nice for a change. Back in the good old days different kind of Christians were killing each other. I rather like the present situatiot in that we talk and understand instead of attack and kill.

[Riddikulus]

I find it as an expression of good manners. They might think that we are a little eccentric and old-fashioned but tolerating others while disagreeing with them is rather nice for a change. Back in the good old days different kind of Christians were killing each other. I rather like the present situatiot in that we talk and understand instead of attack and kill.

 

[biro]

Actions mean far more.

What actions you had in mind?

So you mean to tell me that all these folks sit down together knowing that they're not the legitimate Chruch? Then these pople are far more stupid than I originally thought.

I find it as an expression of good manners. They might think that we are a little eccentric and old-fashioned but tolerating others while disagreeing with them is rather nice for a change. Back in the good old days different kind of Christians were killing each other. I rather like the present situatiot in that we talk and understand instead of attack and kill.

Exactly.

[primuspilus]

Ok, good manners. Fine. So we blow all this time and money on good manners and get nothing accomplished except for issuing statements that should not need to be stated. Ok, yeah we all get it. AIDS is bad. We should work together. Hungry people are hungry. "AIDS and the Church as a Healing Community". Yeah big whoop. Has it done anything? No.

Its just another exercise of self feather stroking.

Nice statements, feel good words, and smileys wont change that.

PP

[vasily]

As a side note, I can not understand why certain Orthodox jurisdictions are still involved with these Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions. Have any real problems been resolved?

From what i've read and heard, in the US alot has been accomplished.

PP

 These theological dialogues between the Catholics and Orthodox are local. Are we to believe that Rome will return to orthodox teachings and denounce the Latin teachings of purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Papal infallibility, celibate clergy, and to omit the filioque in the Creed? The Eastern Rite dilemma has yet to be seriously confronted. What about the Latin Patriarchs that exist in traditionally Orthodox cities?

 What is the solution? I personally think that any dialogue should be on a Patriarchal level. with all Orthodox bishops in total agreement on the agenda at hand. Common ground is out of the question, when it is Rome who should desire to return to Orthodoxy.