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Poll
Question: Should Orthodox Churches be Part of the World Council of Churches?
Yes - 12 (23.5%)
No - 28 (54.9%)
It was OK in the past, but not now. - 5 (9.8%)
It was bad in the past, but it may be OK in the future. - 1 (2%)
Never! - 5 (9.8%)
Total Voters: 51

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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and the WCC  (Read 5732 times) Average Rating: 0
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Gebre Menfes Kidus
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« on: February 11, 2012, 07:27:16 PM »

What say ye?



Selam
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« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2012, 09:27:56 PM »

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.
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« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2012, 09:46:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote
Abune Paulos


High resolution, please credit: Peter Williams/WCC
WCC president (Oriental Orthodox)
His Holiness Abune Paulos is the patriarch of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, which has a membership of 40 million. He has been instrumental in encouraging interfaith dialogue in Ethiopia, and has participated in many international meetings, including the World Economic Forum and the World Summit of Religious and Spiritual Leaders at the United Nations. He has shown keen interest in youth, women's issues and HIV/AIDS, acting as patron of the national programme on HIV/AIDS. In recognition of his outstanding contributions to the protection and welfare of refugees, he was awarded the Nansen Medal for Africa by the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees in 2000. He has served as a member of central committee and the Faith and Order commission, and attended the Nairobi assembly.
http://www.oikoumene.org/who-are-we/organization-structure/governing-bodies/biographies-of-wcc-officers-and-presidents/abune-paulos.html

By the way, HIM Haile Selassie was a major part of the formation of the WCC
Quote
January 12, 1971
Mr. Chairman, Eminences and Distinguished Members of the Central Committee,
It is with feelings of great spiritual and personal happiness that We witness the convening of this meeting of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches in Our capital city.
This is particularly so as it is more timely than ever for followers of Christ to gather to deliberate on current vital issues affecting international peace and justice.
Man's egoistic motives and his selfish desire to pursue exclusively his own individual interests, thus failing in his God-given task of following the goal of the unity of all, is witness to the feebleness of human nature, and constitutes the major obstacle to the unity of all Christians towards which we strive.
How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves?
Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together, it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit.
We Christians living by the faith of Christ, the Head and Pillar on whom the Church is founded, cannot escape the responsibility to work for the peace of the world, and to ensure equality for all human beings created by God, lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings, created in the image of God, being deprived by virtue of their color or their poverty, of the benefits and blessings that are the birthright of every man and all men, and suffering in agony, cast forth from the pale of full human existence.
Man does not live by bread alone. The spiritual life does not deny, however, the need for bread. Therefore, the spiritual life of humanity must necessarily include the common aspiration of all of us for a better standard of living and for greater improvement in the quality of human existence.
May God our Creator, the Helper and guiding Light of us all, grant you His wisdom that your meeting may bear fruit for His glory. We sincerely wish you all success and pray that God may lead you to that unity which Christians all over the world eagerly await.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1758-6623.1971.tb01118.x/asset/j.1758-6623.1971.tb01118.x_p1.png?v=1&s=5dedcc78fc4d7a3122c5e37d64c2667940c8ad26


stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:47:27 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2012, 10:47:46 PM »

Hey, HabteSelassie, would it be possible to downsize that pic?
I cannot even see the man's face, but only about 1/4 of it at one time.

Anyway, the entire idea of the WCC and the NCC is scary.
Do we need a one world religion reduced to its minimum?

I voted NO before I saw NEVER.
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« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2012, 11:23:23 PM »

It's a waste of time.  The Protestants continue to drift further and further away from the orthodox teachings of Christianity and they have little to no interest in Orthodoxy save for trying to drag us down the same road of relativism.  As long as Orthodox Christians remain faithful to the teachings of the church, the more the WCC will try to exert influence on our hierarchs to get them to accept clearly heterodox if not out right heretical teachings all for the sake of meaningless "unity." 
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« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 03:29:38 AM »

As a someone who loves His Imperial Majesty Emperor Haile Selasie I and has always trusted his judgment, I must admit that I have never been comfortable with the Orthodox participation in the WCC. I haven't actually voted in my own poll yet, but I think I'm going to vote that it may have been OK in the past but that it's not OK now. Too much potential for moral pollution and theological compromise. The Church can be thoroughly evangelistic without making strange bedfellows. As for Abuna Paulos, I cannot pass judgment. He is controversial to say the least, but I confess that I'm not familiar enough with the issues regarding the unfortunate division between the contesting EOTC Patriarchates to state an opinion. I pray for Abuna Paulos as for all Orthodox leaders. May God grant him wisdom.


Selam
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« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 03:55:43 AM »

It's a waste of time.  The Protestants continue to drift further and further away from the orthodox teachings of Christianity and they have little to no interest in Orthodoxy save for trying to drag us down the same road of relativism.  As long as Orthodox Christians remain faithful to the teachings of the church, the more the WCC will try to exert influence on our hierarchs to get them to accept clearly heterodox if not out right heretical teachings all for the sake of meaningless "unity." 

I agree with you completely and I do see a lot of the relativism that you are talking about. I recently heard of some Orthodox converts who are all about uniting with Evangelical Protestants on the idea that they aren't that different (these are the same people who will talk about how different and heretical Roman Catholics are!). I think the Orthodox Church should take a similar position of Rome and withdraw because I do have a fear that if the participation continues and more converts from Protestants believe that Evangelicals are "no different" then I fear that Orthodoxy (in America at least) will become no different than just another Protestant denomination that has Saints and veneration of Mary (but not as much as the Catholics as some claim).
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« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 08:41:30 AM »

Quote
divided for many centuries up till now,
Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 12:28:30 PM »

Quote
divided for many centuries up till now,
Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

What are you talking about? Our bishops are hardly ever on the same page.
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 01:08:55 PM »

Quote
divided for many centuries up till now,
Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

What are you talking about? Our bishops are hardly ever on the same page.
But they are members of the Body, which is I believe what is being intimated here Smiley

Now, my take. The WCC is not something that our Church should be a member of. I mentioned this in another thread about my argument. I'll see if I cant find it.


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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 02:51:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
divided for many centuries up till now,
Garbage. 

There hasn't been any division in Christ's Church.

What are you talking about? Our bishops are hardly ever on the same page.
But they are members of the Body, which is I believe what is being intimated here Smiley

Now, my take. The WCC is not something that our Church should be a member of. I mentioned this in another thread about my argument. I'll see if I cant find it.


PP

I can respect y'all opinions and understand the skepticism and apprehensions, I have them as well, but I am obliged to follow the discipline and example of both my Emperor and my Patriarchs, in their continual involvement with the WCC since its inception, and HIM Haile Selassie was a personal fan, as HIM was extending the reach of Ecumenism beyond just the Oriental and Eastern Orthodox dialogues of the 1960s where HIM was declared the Defender of the Faith, but also with the Protestants and Evangelical groups who were ministering across Africa.  HIM had the opposite of the divide and conquer Imperial strategy, HIM was a fan of the co-opt in and therefore have the agency to keep an eye on approach to international and inter-African and inter-faith affairs. 

HIM played the chess game of realpolitik far to well, even in the context of the Faith.  After all, read the Orthodox history, the Councils, the Anathemas, realistically sometimes conflict in the past has been far more a matter of personalities than doctrine.

I accept the Ethiopian Church's involvement with the WCC as a matter of faith, which is all I can do in reverence to the discipline of my Holy Mother the Church. I go where she goes trusting in God Almighty.  After all, sometimes she is commissioned to unfriendly territory to evangelize herself Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 07:33:05 PM »

I voted NEVER.  The WCC is nothing other than a tool of the Antichrist.
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 08:30:57 PM »

The WCC is a complete waste of time.  The reps have to jump through hoops to remain true to Christianity. 
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 09:10:51 PM »

The WCC is a complete and total waste of time.  I would much prefer to see any and all resources (including time) spent on WCC matters, by the Orthodox, used instead on EO and OO reconciliation.  That is something that has the potential to bear fruit BEFORE the second coming of Christ.

Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2012, 09:36:50 PM »

I      you not. I really thought Gebre was suggesting the OC have something to do with WC.

This I could get behind and actually pull off logistically at my parish. Easily walking distance from one another.
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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2012, 09:51:35 PM »

Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.
Thank you. Truly.
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2012, 10:02:04 PM »

I voted NEVER.  The WCC is nothing other than a tool of the Antichrist.
Bingo.
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2012, 12:36:14 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.
You are of course free to your opinions, and I of course have already expressed my own apprehensions about this organization, however (A) there seems be to be no reason to make it personal about HIM Haile Selassie I and further make accusations of heresy against the Defender of the Faith and (B) I am duty bound to respect the discipline of my jurisdiction, and if His Holiness Abune Paulos actively works with the WCC, as has the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church for some decades now, I must respect and defend such as a matter of faith.

Further, Gebre Menfes Kidus is the OP, and I am equally obliged to let that brother know where our jurisdiction stands on this matter as he shares such and further asked the question specifically.

It seems we need to look at this speech again folks read it a bit wrong:

Quote
Mr. Chairman, Eminences and Distinguished Members of the Central Committee,
It is with feelings of great spiritual and personal happiness that We witness the convening of this meeting of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches in Our capital city.
This is particularly so as it is more timely than ever for followers of Christ to gather to deliberate on current vital issues affecting international peace and justice.
Man's egoistic motives and his selfish desire to pursue exclusively his own individual interests, thus failing in his God-given task of following the goal of the unity of all, is witness to the feebleness of human nature, and constitutes the major obstacle to the unity of all Christians towards which we strive.
How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves?
Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together,
it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit.
We Christians living by the faith of Christ, the Head and Pillar on whom the Church is founded, cannot escape the responsibility to work for the peace of the world, and to ensure equality for all human beings created by God, lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings, created in the image of God, being deprived by virtue of their color or their poverty, of the benefits and blessings that are the birthright of every man and all men, and suffering in agony, cast forth from the pale of full human existence.
Man does not live by bread alone. The spiritual life does not deny, however, the need for bread. Therefore, the spiritual life of humanity must necessarily include the common aspiration of all of us for a better standard of living and for greater improvement in the quality of human existence.
May God our Creator, the Helper and guiding Light of us all, grant you His wisdom that your meeting may bear fruit for His glory. We sincerely wish you all success and pray that God may lead you to that unity which Christians all over the world eagerly await.

If folks can't see that the Church is divided, y'all are simply lying to yourselves.  The Body of Christ is eternally unified, but folks continue to assert their imaginary divisions, and this is what HIM is addressing, that indeed the Church is of course united as One Body, so perhaps its time we all act like it instead of continually splintering into Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Byzantine-Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Lutheran, etc etc..

HIM couldn't have made up such a silly story if HIM tried, let alone the reality that HIM was just pointing  out history.  Further, lets focus on the highlight of that speech, " lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings."  Unity is strength. Let us pray for such as HIM ended HIM speech saying "We sincerely with you all the success and pray that God may lead you to that unity.."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:37:29 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 01:31:34 AM »

No, Habte, what Selassie is assterting here is that the Church has always been divided and that includes the Protestants. The problem here is the Protestants were never a part of the Church nor did they protest against the Orthodox Church. We should not even be dialouging with them, insofar as union.
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 02:31:17 AM »

Habte, if Ethiopian Orthodox are required to "defend as a matter of faith" the decision by your hierarch to be in the WCC, your faith and mine have nothing to do with each other.

Further, unity isn't strength.  God is strength.  The Church is the Body of Christ, the Holy Spirit dwells within each of its members.  Therefore, the Church is strength, no imaginary need for "unity."  The Church is made NO stronger by John Q. Smith joining.  It is made NO weaker by Jacob Bobson leaving.  It is not, in ANY way, harmed by the existence of schisms, because the truth is that those who are not in the Church - because of schism - are not in the Church.  They have not wounded the Body of Christ, but merely themselves. 
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 02:39:01 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!




Anyways, His Imperial Majesty was either speaking heresy or was using a very poor choice of words in proclaiming the Church to be divided.  The Church can never be divided.  People can separate themselves from the Church, and the Church can formally recognize that they have done so, but the Church is never divided.  By saying it is, you are either claiming that the Body of Christ has been cut in two, or you are choosing your words without much care, because the Protestants will latch onto those words and take it as evidence that the Orthodox see themselves as just one more denomination.
You are of course free to your opinions, and I of course have already expressed my own apprehensions about this organization, however (A) there seems be to be no reason to make it personal about HIM Haile Selassie I and further make accusations of heresy against the Defender of the Faith and (B) I am duty bound to respect the discipline of my jurisdiction, and if His Holiness Abune Paulos actively works with the WCC, as has the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church for some decades now, I must respect and defend such as a matter of faith.

Further, Gebre Menfes Kidus is the OP, and I am equally obliged to let that brother know where our jurisdiction stands on this matter as he shares such and further asked the question specifically.

It seems we need to look at this speech again folks read it a bit wrong:

Quote
Mr. Chairman, Eminences and Distinguished Members of the Central Committee,
It is with feelings of great spiritual and personal happiness that We witness the convening of this meeting of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches in Our capital city.
This is particularly so as it is more timely than ever for followers of Christ to gather to deliberate on current vital issues affecting international peace and justice.
Man's egoistic motives and his selfish desire to pursue exclusively his own individual interests, thus failing in his God-given task of following the goal of the unity of all, is witness to the feebleness of human nature, and constitutes the major obstacle to the unity of all Christians towards which we strive.
How long will we, who are disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, who are taught by the same Holy Bible, continue to remain divided amongst ourselves?
Realizing that the time has come for the Church of Christ, divided for many centuries up till now, to come together in unity and work together,
it is imperative for all of us to strive together, in accordance with the words of the Apostle, Ephesians, Chapter 4, verses 5 and 6 to clear the way and open it up for the realization of unity. Each church and all churches have the obligation, derived from their covenant with God, to proclaim the Gospel, to make disciples of all nations and thus to make the faith grow and bear fruit.
We Christians living by the faith of Christ, the Head and Pillar on whom the Church is founded, cannot escape the responsibility to work for the peace of the world, and to ensure equality for all human beings created by God, lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings, created in the image of God, being deprived by virtue of their color or their poverty, of the benefits and blessings that are the birthright of every man and all men, and suffering in agony, cast forth from the pale of full human existence.
Man does not live by bread alone. The spiritual life does not deny, however, the need for bread. Therefore, the spiritual life of humanity must necessarily include the common aspiration of all of us for a better standard of living and for greater improvement in the quality of human existence.
May God our Creator, the Helper and guiding Light of us all, grant you His wisdom that your meeting may bear fruit for His glory. We sincerely wish you all success and pray that God may lead you to that unity which Christians all over the world eagerly await.

If folks can't see that the Church is divided, y'all are simply lying to yourselves.  The Body of Christ is eternally unified, but folks continue to assert their imaginary divisions, and this is what HIM is addressing, that indeed the Church is of course united as One Body, so perhaps its time we all act like it instead of continually splintering into Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Byzantine-Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Lutheran, etc etc..

HIM couldn't have made up such a silly story if HIM tried, let alone the reality that HIM was just pointing  out history.  Further, lets focus on the highlight of that speech, " lest we fail in our duty by being mere passive witnesses to the gruesome spectacle of human beings."  Unity is strength. Let us pray for such as HIM ended HIM speech saying "We sincerely with you all the success and pray that God may lead you to that unity.."

stay blessed,
habte selassie


Good thoughts brother. Like you, I too defer to the wisdom of His Majesty and the security of the Tewahedo Church. That's why I included the option of "It was OK in the past but not OK now." I wonder if His Majesty would support the EOTC's involvement in the WCC today? I have no idea. But I think it's worth reconsidering. His Majesty dealt with so many important issues, being politically shrewd without compromising or sacificing Orthodox truth and Orthodox values.

As for whether or not the Church is divided, this is my humble opinion: The Church itself cannot be divided, for Christ preserves it always. However, there are most certainly internal divisions within the Church. And I agree that His Majesty was referring to these internal divisions that must be ameliorated through the reconciliation that is born form humility, love, and understanding.

Christianity is fractured, but the Church is not. Ecumenical efforts to unify Christianity are futile at best and demonic at worst. But ecumenical efforts to heal the internal divisions within Orthodoxy are quite necessary and productive in my humble opinion.


Selam
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 03:27:50 AM »

I voted for "Yes" provided that it doesn't contradict with Orthodox ecclesiology. Despite all the nonsense connected with ecumenism I still believe that we should work for Christian unity no matter how hard it might seem.
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 07:30:00 AM »

 No! No! No! The Orthodox involvement in any of these ecumenical movements have been pursued blindly and are delusional in their thinking that something positive will take place, that our presence is needed and that some "common ground" will be pursued or achieved. A true dialogue implies an exchange of views with a possibility of persuading the participant to attain an agreement. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

Union with all the Orthodox Churches should come first, so that peace and love will exist among the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful. Then let's contemplate union with the other confessions , only if they sincerely desire to embrace Orthodox dogmas, theology and traditions.


 
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 09:14:52 AM »

No! No! No! The Orthodox involvement in any of these ecumenical movements have been pursued blindly and are delusional in their thinking that something positive will take place, that our presence is needed and that some "common ground" will be pursued or achieved. A true dialogue implies an exchange of views with a possibility of persuading the participant to attain an agreement. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

Union with all the Orthodox Churches should come first, so that peace and love will exist among the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful. Then let's contemplate union with the other confessions , only if they sincerely desire to embrace Orthodox dogmas, theology and traditions.


 

I agree with you but I do think that we should have observer status in order to keep abreast of developments and to provide continuing witness. 
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 01:05:09 PM »

No! No! No! The Orthodox involvement in any of these ecumenical movements have been pursued blindly and are delusional in their thinking that something positive will take place, that our presence is needed and that some "common ground" will be pursued or achieved. A true dialogue implies an exchange of views with a possibility of persuading the participant to attain an agreement. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

Union with all the Orthodox Churches should come first, so that peace and love will exist among the Eastern Orthodox Churches and faithful. Then let's contemplate union with the other confessions , only if they sincerely desire to embrace Orthodox dogmas, theology and traditions.


 

I agree with you but I do think that we should have observer status in order to keep abreast of developments and to provide continuing witness. 
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2012, 02:14:34 PM »

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2012, 02:41:02 PM »

 ^I agree
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2012, 11:05:31 PM »

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2012, 11:20:13 PM »

I voted for "Yes" provided that it doesn't contradict with Orthodox ecclesiology. Despite all the nonsense connected with ecumenism I still believe that we should work for Christian unity no matter how hard it might seem.

No doubt.  But the question is whether the WCC with its semi-pagan prayer rituals and ridiculous leanings toward trans-galactic Orkan heresies is the forum in which this can even happen realistically.  It is just a bizarre organization at this point.  Just go and attend as an observer one of the state versions of the NCC meetings.   You'll just feel creeped out and dirty from attending.  I speak from experience.  There are more respectible forums that do the same thing and cannot be mistaken for a commerical for a sci-fi film. 
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 08:09:30 AM »

Personally, I am against even observer participation. The Orthodox Church in North America has many issues to confront, such as the jurisdictional and unity problems. I am a firm believer in missionary work to spread and teach about the Orthodox Faith. Our involvement in any of these ecumenical circles has not accomplished or changed anything. Have converts come to the Orthodox Church because of our presence in these movements?

As a side note, I can not understand why certain Orthodox jurisdictions are still involved with these Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions. Have any real problems been resolved?
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2012, 10:30:10 AM »

Quote
As a side note, I can not understand why certain Orthodox jurisdictions are still involved with these Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions. Have any real problems been resolved?
From what i've read and heard, in the US alot has been accomplished.

PP
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2012, 12:18:04 PM »

Have converts come to the Orthodox Church because of our presence in these movements?

Yes.

There are more respectible forums that do the same thing and cannot be mistaken for a commerical for a sci-fi film. 

LOL. I meant exactly these kind of things with "all the nonsense connected with ecumenism". Still, are there any alternatives to WCC? Are there any other global organizations for ecumenical discissussion?
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2012, 01:00:31 PM »

Quote
Yes.
Source please. I'd LOVE to read someone saying "I was Muslim then converted to Orthodoxy because of the WCC, or I was Baptist and saw the error of my ways at a WCC meeting and came back to the original Church....

Quote
I meant exactly these kind of things with "all the nonsense connected with ecumenism". Still, are there any alternatives to WCC?
Such as, alternatives to sitting around and making predcictable statements and doing really nothing? Yes.

Quote
Are there any other global organizations for ecumenical discissussion?
I dont know about global, but there are other groups formed nationally (NCC) and they're equally worthless.

Direct dialogue is best. In America, real progress is being made between the Orthodox and the Roman Church. That is how it should be done. These 2 churches want to find common ground, and pray for rejoining. When is the last time you heard a 7th day adventist or a baptist pray the same thing? I say look no further than Western Rite Orthodoxy. That had nothing to do with some grand ecumenical group, but direct communication between Episcopalians and the Orthodox.

These grand congresses of denominations do nothing but diminish what Orthodoxy says. That we are the Church of Christ handed down from the Apostles and that we are the fullness of the faith and the Body. Sitting around a round table with these folks who have no intention of rejoining the Church is a waste of time and money that can better be used to minister to the faithful and spread the Gospel.

Everything else, as King Solomon said so succinctly, is vanity.

PP
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2012, 03:35:56 PM »

Have converts come to the Orthodox Church because of our presence in these movements?

Yes.

There are more respectible forums that do the same thing and cannot be mistaken for a commerical for a sci-fi film. 

LOL. I meant exactly these kind of things with "all the nonsense connected with ecumenism". Still, are there any alternatives to WCC? Are there any other global organizations for ecumenical discissussion?

No there are no worldwide orgs.  I was remarking on the NCC and state chapters in particular.   The only worldwide "orgs" are not organizations, but individual dialogues (Orthodox-RCC, Orthodox-Anglican, Orthodox-Lutheran, etc.).  These probably are better than an organization anyway.  How can we be "members" of a para-ecclesial organization anyway? 
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2012, 04:25:41 PM »

Quote
Yes.
Source please. I'd LOVE to read someone saying "I was Muslim then converted to Orthodoxy because of the WCC, or I was Baptist and saw the error of my ways at a WCC meeting and came back to the original Church....

Learn Finnish first. Wink Anyway, they'd probably be something like "Gee, they aren't Mary-worshipping Pagans after all!"

Quote
Such as, alternatives to sitting around and making predcictable statements and doing really nothing? Yes.

I think clearing the misconceptions is more than nothing. The most staunchly anti-ecumenist folks seem to be those who doesn't know what other Christians actually believe. And by "staunchly anti-ecumenist" I don't mean strict adherence to Orthodox doctrines. I'm rather rigid on that area myself.

How can we be "members" of a para-ecclesial organization anyway?  

It's not para-ecclesial organization if we're talking about WCC. I believe there is a document that clearly states that membership in WCC doesn't mean accepting other members as legitimate local churches.
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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2012, 05:02:03 PM »

I believe there is a document that clearly states that membership in WCC doesn't mean accepting other members as legitimate local churches.

Ditto.
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2012, 05:15:07 PM »

Quote
I believe there is a document that clearly states that membership in WCC doesn't mean accepting other members as legitimate local churches
Saying that means nothing. Actions mean far more. So you mean to tell me that all these folks sit down together knowing that they're not the legitimate Chruch? Then these pople are far more stupid than I originally thought.

PP
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2012, 06:17:02 PM »

"Membership," its a problem, no? 
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2012, 11:16:34 PM »

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

Our hierarchs and representatives can just sit there and be insulted by the more "enlightened" Protestants.
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2012, 11:23:18 PM »

I like the stance of the RCC: sending observers to the WCC (thus participating in a limited way) without actually joining. The WCC operates essentially on the principle that all denominations are part of the Body. This is not in harmony with our understanding of what the Church is.

This is one of the times the RCC is right.  Observe but don't get involved.

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

Our hierarchs and representatives can just sit there and be insulted by the more "enlightened" Protestants.

I don't know.  I don't think that people who watch the circus from the stands are insulted by the clowns and jugglers.  But still does not hurt to be in proximity just in case they want to bail on the circus owners and use their talents for more noble things. 
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« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2012, 02:27:31 AM »

Actions mean far more.

What actions you had in mind?

Quote
So you mean to tell me that all these folks sit down together knowing that they're not the legitimate Chruch? Then these pople are far more stupid than I originally thought.

I find it as an expression of good manners. They might think that we are a little eccentric and old-fashioned but tolerating others while disagreeing with them is rather nice for a change. Back in the good old days different kind of Christians were killing each other. I rather like the present situatiot in that we talk and understand instead of attack and kill.
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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2012, 06:52:17 AM »

I find it as an expression of good manners. They might think that we are a little eccentric and old-fashioned but tolerating others while disagreeing with them is rather nice for a change. Back in the good old days different kind of Christians were killing each other. I rather like the present situatiot in that we talk and understand instead of attack and kill.

 Smiley
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2012, 09:17:37 AM »

Actions mean far more.

What actions you had in mind?

Quote
So you mean to tell me that all these folks sit down together knowing that they're not the legitimate Chruch? Then these pople are far more stupid than I originally thought.

I find it as an expression of good manners. They might think that we are a little eccentric and old-fashioned but tolerating others while disagreeing with them is rather nice for a change. Back in the good old days different kind of Christians were killing each other. I rather like the present situatiot in that we talk and understand instead of attack and kill.

Exactly.
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« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2012, 10:25:37 AM »

Ok, good manners. Fine. So we blow all this time and money on good manners and get nothing accomplished except for issuing statements that should not need to be stated. Ok, yeah we all get it. AIDS is bad. We should work together. Hungry people are hungry. "AIDS and the Church as a Healing Community". Yeah big whoop. Has it done anything? No.

Its just another exercise of self feather stroking.

Nice statements, feel good words, and smileys wont change that.

PP

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« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2012, 10:31:25 AM »

Quote
As a side note, I can not understand why certain Orthodox jurisdictions are still involved with these Catholic-Orthodox theological discussions. Have any real problems been resolved?
From what i've read and heard, in the US alot has been accomplished.

PP


 These theological dialogues between the Catholics and Orthodox are local. Are we to believe that Rome will return to orthodox teachings and denounce the Latin teachings of purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Papal infallibility, celibate clergy, and to omit the filioque in the Creed? The Eastern Rite dilemma has yet to be seriously confronted. What about the Latin Patriarchs that exist in traditionally Orthodox cities?

 What is the solution? I personally think that any dialogue should be on a Patriarchal level. with all Orthodox bishops in total agreement on the agenda at hand. Common ground is out of the question, when it is Rome who should desire to return to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2012, 10:37:49 AM »

Quote
These theological dialogues between the Catholics and Orthodox are local. Are we to believe that Rome will return to orthodox teachings and denounce the Latin teachings of purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Original Sin, Papal infallibility, celibate clergy, and to omit the filioque in the Creed? The Eastern Rite dilemma has yet to be seriously confronted. What about the Latin Patriarchs that exist in traditionally Orthodox cities?
Thats why I think in the US there has been some progress. Because we dont have the historical problems that would make such dialogues impossible in countries like Ukraine.

Quote
I personally think that any dialogue should be on a Patriarchal level. with all Orthodox bishops in total agreement on the agenda at hand
As we've discussed earlier, and in other threads that would be a feat in and of itself.

PP
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« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2012, 10:59:58 AM »

Has it done anything?

I'm not that hopeful about impending Chrstian unity in my lifetime. Still, we most certainly should work for it how hard it might seem.
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« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2012, 11:00:36 AM »

Frankly, the WCC has become more or less irrelevant in the modern world so I don't lose any sleep over it.
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« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2012, 11:48:23 AM »

Quote
I'm not that hopeful about impending Chrstian unity in my lifetime. Still, we most certainly should work for it how hard it might seem
Of course we should pray for unity, but unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it. You can not have unity in that way if half or more of the members refuse to even acknowledge a physical Church, and only say the Church is invisible.

PP
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« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2012, 12:10:21 PM »

pp is correct on one lever regarding unity.

However, if all Christians can speak with one voice on issues where we MUST agree - persecution, oppression etc... we can all benefit. Should we not speak out as Christians against the violence directed at Copts in Egypt, Chaldeans in Iraq, Catholics in Nigeria and Protestants in other parts of the world? If we focus on what divides us, which in many cases is insurmountable, how can we witness and speak out on that which we share? Tough call, not an easy choice indeed.

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« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »

pp is correct on one lever regarding unity.

However, if all Christians can speak with one voice on issues where we MUST agree - persecution, oppression etc... we can all benefit. Should we not speak out as Christians against the violence directed at Copts in Egypt, Chaldeans in Iraq, Catholics in Nigeria and Protestants in other parts of the world? If we focus on what divides us, which in many cases is insurmountable, how can we witness and speak out on that which we share? Tough call, not an easy choice indeed.
I agree with this. The point which I probably did not make very well was if this group only issues these statements, which are needed but rather predictable and does nothing else, what good is it? This group was not formed to work towards recompiling to the One Church of Christ.

PP
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« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2012, 12:21:04 PM »

pp is correct on one lever regarding unity.

However, if all Christians can speak with one voice on issues where we MUST agree - persecution, oppression etc... we can all benefit. Should we not speak out as Christians against the violence directed at Copts in Egypt, Chaldeans in Iraq, Catholics in Nigeria and Protestants in other parts of the world? If we focus on what divides us, which in many cases is insurmountable, how can we witness and speak out on that which we share? Tough call, not an easy choice indeed.
I agree with this. The point which I probably did not make very well was if this group only issues these statements, which are needed but rather predictable and does nothing else, what good is it? This group was not formed to work towards recompiling to the One Church of Christ.

PP


While some militant Orthodox may disagree on this, perhaps the WCC could do more to actually encourage all who profess belief in Christ as the Savior of Mankind to be more tolerant of those who so profess but in a different manner than oneself? On the local level our county's  Council of Churches runs an ecumenical community based food bank, sponsors programs to assist senior homeowners, victims of our recent floods etc... We don't try to 'commune' together, but we do try to live together.

Less doctrinal discussion, more community action and the WCC might be a valuable witness to the apathetic world. But that is probably too much to hope for.....
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« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2012, 12:23:33 PM »

Quote
While some militant Orthodox may disagree on this, perhaps the WCC could do more to actually encourage all who profess belief in Christ as the Savior of Mankind to be more tolerant of those who so profess but in a different manner than oneself?
That would be a start.

Quote
On the local level our county's  Council of Churches runs an ecumenical community based food bank, sponsors programs to assist senior homeowners, victims of our recent floods etc... We don't try to 'commune' together, but we do try to live together
I wish we could do something like that here, but we're filled with churches that believe Anglicans, Orthodox, and Roman Catholics are not really Christians, so that would go over as well as a fart in Church.

Quote
Less doctrinal discussion, more community action and the WCC might be a valuable witness to the apathetic world. But that is probably too much to hope for.....
Aint that the truth.

PP
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« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2012, 12:36:07 PM »

Quote
While some militant Orthodox may disagree on this, perhaps the WCC could do more to actually encourage all who profess belief in Christ as the Savior of Mankind to be more tolerant of those who so profess but in a different manner than oneself?
That would be a start.

Quote
On the local level our county's  Council of Churches runs an ecumenical community based food bank, sponsors programs to assist senior homeowners, victims of our recent floods etc... We don't try to 'commune' together, but we do try to live together
I wish we could do something like that here, but we're filled with churches that believe Anglicans, Orthodox, and Roman Catholics are not really Christians, so that would go over as well as a fart in Church.

Quote
Less doctrinal discussion, more community action and the WCC might be a valuable witness to the apathetic world. But that is probably too much to hope for.....
Aint that the truth.

PP

Those groups which believe that Anglicans, Orthodox and RC's are not Christian usually shun local councils of churches and the WCC. Not much you can do about them except pray.
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« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2012, 12:37:57 PM »

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
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« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2012, 12:47:08 PM »

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
I know it does not claim to be a church, but to me, it is very hypocritical for RC's and orthodox to sit down with folks that outright deny these Church's main claim. That they are the visible Church of Christ.

This council was not created to work towards unity, but to really just issue statements. I just think it is a waste of time.
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« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2012, 12:55:44 PM »

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
I know it does not claim to be a church, but to me, it is very hypocritical for RC's and orthodox to sit down with folks that outright deny these Church's main claim. That they are the visible Church of Christ.

This council was not created to work towards unity, but to really just issue statements. I just think it is a waste of time.
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So we should stop working for Christian unity because it's hard and because someone might disagree with us? Smiley
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« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2012, 12:58:38 PM »

Quote
So we should stop working for Christian unity because it's hard and because someone might disagree with us?
They're not working on Christian unity, at least not in the way Orthodox and Roman Catholics view unity.

Issuing a joint statement is not unity. It is a joint statement ascribed to by different parties.
If the WCC wanted unity, they would meet to try to hammer out theological and practical disagreements to make the attempt to unite into one Church, as it was in the beginning. They are not doing that. It is not unity, and is a waste of time.

It is simply the NCC on a bigger scale.

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« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2012, 03:01:18 PM »

We already have Christian Unity.  What we are discussing is "dialogue" with pagans and heretics. 

unity in the manner of the WCC is not unity as Orthodox or RC's would see it.

Nor it tries to be. WCC most certainly doesn't claim to be a church.
I know it does not claim to be a church, but to me, it is very hypocritical for RC's and orthodox to sit down with folks that outright deny these Church's main claim. That they are the visible Church of Christ.

This council was not created to work towards unity, but to really just issue statements. I just think it is a waste of time.
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So we should stop working for Christian unity because it's hard and because someone might disagree with us? Smiley
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« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2012, 03:08:26 PM »

We already have Christian Unity.  What we are discussing is "dialogue" with pagans and heretics. 

Not really. We have ecclesiological unity. However I've yeat to hear any Orthodox of any Old Calendarist or New Calendarist variety who refuses to call the Heterodox as Christians.

Anyway, call it whathever you want. We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".
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« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2012, 04:31:55 PM »

Quote
We already have Christian Unity.
We do? Evidently Im not Mr. Current Events......

Quote
We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".
We do. However, dialogue does not equal unity.

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« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 04:53:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


We have been discussing a biased definition of unity as "uniting the Church", which obviously both Protestants and Orthodox/Catholic disagree, otherwise there wouldn't be division in the first place! Protestants have their own criticisms of the Church, and the Church has obvious criticisms about Protestantism, and so to be "united" with these is obviously stretch.  Much like the Arabs and the Israelis, we may not be able to settle our existential differences, but surely we'll have to learn to get along one way or the other.   I don't think that the unity of Christians which HIM was speaking of in 1971 was some kind of crypto-reunion, because such is realistically an impossibility.  Simply put, if Protestants want to unite, all they have to do is be baptized and convert or return from their straying and be Chrismated back into their rightful fold.  This is the only "unity" which could be acceptable to the Orthodox perspective, let alone the complications in reunion between Latins, Orthodox, and Orientals.  However, I think the unity which HIM was implying is a function of acting in unison in social and political causes.  We share inherent Christian values and political ideologies as well as cultural and psychological principles, we should be building on this.  If we can't unite as One Church, the least we can do is begin to act more in unison as a society of Christians.  It is the same as the expectations which HIM had for the plurality of the Ethiopian population, and which the American ideals aspire towards, that a pluralistic society can at least learn to get alone more or less.  While the be united is surely an impossibility, to learn to cooperate and act in unison is surely a pragmatic goal.  We all work with, attend school with, and are neighbors of many different kinds of people, and we seem to find a way to work out our differences and act in unison to get our jobs done, to succeed in our educations, and to live side by side as neighbors, shouldn't Christians, albeit theologically divergent, to at least settle for a neighborly cooperation? What is the mechanism of this acting towards unison, mutual dialogue.  What do we need for dialogue, a mutual forum for discussion.  This is precisely why HIM was a founding father of both the League of Nations, the United Nations, the Organization of African Unity, the Conference of Oriental Churches, and yes, even the World Council of Churches.

 Unity is strength.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »

Quote
We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".
We do. However, dialogue does not equal unity.

Agreed.
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« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2012, 07:05:58 PM »

so perhaps its time we all act like it instead of continually splintering into Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Byzantine-Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Lutheran, etc etc..

At the risk of going off on a tangent, Roman Catholics, Byzantine-Catholics, and Melkite Catholics are already in full communion with one another.
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« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2012, 07:09:16 PM »

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

But what about the possibility of retaining membership but at the same time avoiding the hoop-jumping? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really wondering.)
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« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2012, 07:13:19 PM »

No, Habte, what Selassie is assterting here is that the Church has always been divided and that includes the Protestants. The problem here is the Protestants were never a part of the Church nor did they protest against the Orthodox Church.

Indeed the Reformation happened at a time when East and West were estranged from each other. I'd say that's a key reason that the Reformation was, well, the way that it was.

We should not even be dialouging with them, insofar as union.
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« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2012, 12:17:01 AM »

We already have Christian Unity.  What we are discussing is "dialogue" with pagans and heretics. 

Not really. We have ecclesiological unity. However I've yeat to hear any Orthodox of any Old Calendarist or New Calendarist variety who refuses to call the Heterodox as Christians.

Anyway, call it whathever you want. We still have sort of obligation to "have dialogue with pagans and heretics".

If I can be a Christian outside the Church, then I guess that I do not need the Church.  We have no obligation for dialogue.  Our obligation is to proclaim the Truth, not engage and be part of pagan rituals and common prayer with heretics.  Proclamation is a one way process.  We do not need dialogue since the heterodox have nothing to offer us, if we are indeed the True Body of Christ.  The message that we send, regardless of our caveates and weasle words, is that there is more than one Church, and that it is divided (or there would be no need for unity).  Membership is a form of unity.  Observation is not.  The WCC is Antichrist and taints us by our membership.  I have seen a lot of cooperation among religions at the local level without them praying together, holding rituals together and the like.  Why are these things required at such a high and very public arena.  The Orthodox membership in the WCC is a great stumbling block to other Christians (yes, privately I believe some of them are, in spite of what some of the Fathers say).   
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« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2012, 12:17:49 AM »

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

But what about the possibility of retaining membership but at the same time avoiding the hoop-jumping? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really wondering.)

What is so important about membership?  Isn't being a member of Christ's Body enough?
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« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2012, 01:22:22 AM »

And I think you are correct that this is what we need to do.  As observers no ridiculous hoop jumping has to be done. 

But what about the possibility of retaining membership but at the same time avoiding the hoop-jumping? (Not a rhetorical question, I'm really wondering.)

What is so important about membership?  Isn't being a member of Christ's Body enough?

And that is a major problem with having "membership" in such a body.  Can a patriarchate be a "member" of anything else other than Christ's Church?  There is something ecclesiologically very wrong with that.   We can have "representatives" but cannot be as a Body a member of some other body.   
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« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2012, 03:21:30 AM »

If I can be a Christian outside the Church, then I guess that I do not need the Church.

Of course the Heterodox can't be Christians in the same sense as we are.

Quote
We have no obligation for dialogue.

We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.
- St. Mark of Ephesus

We seek not conquest but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.
- St Gregory of Nazianzen

Quote
Our obligation is to proclaim the Truth, not engage and be part of pagan rituals and common prayer with heretics.

Ecumenism does not need common prayers and Pagan rituals. I generally refrain from common prayers with non-Orthodox myself.

Quote
We do not need dialogue since the heterodox have nothing to offer us, if we are indeed the True Body of Christ.

We need dialogue so that the Heterodox understand our doctrine and so that we understand the various Heterodox doctrines. And sometimes so that some Heterodox will understand that our doctrines are better than their own doctrines.

Quote
The message that we send, regardless of our caveates and weasle words, is that there is more than one Church, and that it is divided (or there would be no need for unity).  Membership is a form of unity.

I'm a member of an Finnish Pentecostal internet forum. Does that make me a Pentecostal? Smiley
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« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2012, 10:47:20 AM »

Quote
What is so important about membership?  Isn't being a member of Christ's Body enough?
Thats the thing. most of these folks adhere to them ALL being a member of Christ's invisible Church. This poses a slight problem....

Quote
There is something ecclesiologically very wrong with that.   We can have "representatives" but cannot be as a Body a member of some other body.
I think that would be fair to do.

Quote
I'm a member of an Finnish Pentecostal internet forum. Does that make me a Pentecostal?
No that makes you a more frequent partaker of headache medicine Wink

PP
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« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2012, 11:02:51 AM »

I am just posting to the original point & not in step otherwise. I voted, "no" because I think the ecclesial & theological breakdown in the "main line" Protestant churches has become irreparable & any concession to it would be like introducing a virus into the ecclesia (non tradtional marriage, clergy gender issues etc.). True there remain "orthodox" Protestants & I  pray for their perseverance to Christian faith. Perhaps dialogue outside the WCC & with tradtional leanin Christians like the confessing Methodists, Anglican Catholics etc. 
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« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2012, 03:51:00 PM »

Thats the thing. most of these folks adhere to them ALL being a member of Christ's invisible Church. This poses a slight problem....

Most of them probably haven't heard very much in the way of alternate theories.
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« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2012, 03:54:03 PM »

Thats the thing. most of these folks adhere to them ALL being a member of Christ's invisible Church. This poses a slight problem....

Most of them probably haven't heard very much in the way of alternate theories.
Quite possible Smiley

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« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2012, 08:41:26 AM »

If I can be a Christian outside the Church, then I guess that I do not need the Church.

Of course the Heterodox can't be Christians in the same sense as we are.

Quote
We have no obligation for dialogue.

We seek and we pray for our return to that time when, being united, we spoke the same things and there was no schism between us.
- St. Mark of Ephesus

We seek not conquest but the return of our brethren, whose separation from us is tearing us apart.
- St Gregory of Nazianzen

Quote
Our obligation is to proclaim the Truth, not engage and be part of pagan rituals and common prayer with heretics.

Ecumenism does not need common prayers and Pagan rituals. I generally refrain from common prayers with non-Orthodox myself.

Quote
We do not need dialogue since the heterodox have nothing to offer us, if we are indeed the True Body of Christ.

We need dialogue so that the Heterodox understand our doctrine and so that we understand the various Heterodox doctrines. And sometimes so that some Heterodox will understand that our doctrines are better than their own doctrines.

Quote
The message that we send, regardless of our caveates and weasle words, is that there is more than one Church, and that it is divided (or there would be no need for unity).  Membership is a form of unity.

I'm a member of an Finnish Pentecostal internet forum. Does that make me a Pentecostal? Smiley


 Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines? The truth is avoided when one seeks common ground. It is they, the heterodox, who have separated themselves from the true faith, the true theology and teachings. The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines. We have become delusional in our thinking that our presence is vital in any of these church councils. We have become distracted and in some aspects have tried to fit in. The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church. Lectures and other programs should be scheduled. We invite you to come and see. This should be done on a parish level and even on a community level, if there exists more than one Orthodox community in the area. We should be working together to go and teach all nations.
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« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2012, 09:00:31 AM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.
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« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2012, 12:45:09 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.
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« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2012, 12:14:53 PM »

 What has been gained by the involvement of the Orthodox in any of these ecumenical circles? Has our presence ,after all these years as members, produced anything positive?
Has any of the heterodox seen the true light and converted to Orthodoxy en masse, because of our presence?


 The involvement of the Orthodox, from the very beginning, was to present an opportunity for an articulate Orthodox witness, as the Orthodox Church is the True Faith. This idea has not become reality. The heterodox have left or separated from the True Faith, changed theology, teachings etc. They have become the lost sheep and it is our responsibility to have them return to the true fold. Has this occurred because of our involvement in any of these ecumenical movements? Have our discussions with the heterodox and our understanding of them proved anything?  Like I stated previously, some who support our involvement have become delusional in their thinking that something positive will occur.

 I cannot stress the importance of our involvement in missionary work, though certain community programs, lectures, ethnic fairs(this is a great opportunity to hand out Orthodox materials), etc.

Missionary work is contradictory to ecumenism. I am totally unaware that the Orthodox were doing any kind of missionary work at these ecumenical council meetings. I do not recall any large groups from these ecumenical meetings converting to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #78 on: February 22, 2012, 12:27:58 PM »

Quote
In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists
nobody is bearing false witness, I just think that Orthodoxy does not need to "play house" with other groups that have no intention of having 1 united Christian Church.

Quote
I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool
You dont need to join a group and be identified with others to know what they believe.

Quote
What has been gained by the involvement of the Orthodox in any of these ecumenical circles? Has our presence ,after all these years as members, produced anything positive?
Has any of the heterodox seen the true light and converted to Orthodoxy en masse, because of our presence?
I'll answer, since someone said WAY back that folks have converted because of such things, but gave no evidence because non exists. no, I am pretty darn sure nobody has converted for it.


Quote
The involvement of the Orthodox, from the very beginning, was to present an opportunity for an articulate Orthodox witness, as the Orthodox Church is the True Faith. This idea has not become reality. The heterodox have left or separated from the True Faith, changed theology, teachings etc. They have become the lost sheep and it is our responsibility to have them return to the true fold. Has this occurred because of our involvement in any of these ecumenical movements? Have our discussions with the heterodox and our understanding of them proved anything?  Like I stated previously, some who support our involvement have become delusional in their thinking that something positive will occur
+1


One more thing, let us look at the Apostles and the Fathers. Did the Apostles form a a group to "understand and be united with our brothers in Judaism?" Nope. What about the schismatic churches? Did Orthodoxy form a group to better "understand" and "stand with" the Nestorians after they were deemed heretical? Nope. Why should we?


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« Reply #79 on: February 22, 2012, 01:58:45 PM »

These ecumenical councils have included Jews, Muslims, animists, Hindus, and other non-Christian groups. I have absolutely nothing against learning about other religions, but I have no real need to understand their so called doctrines, since Orthodox, is the true faith.My purpose when confronted by a non-Orthodox ,is to educate them about the Orthodox Faith, not find commonalities. Do you discuss doctrines when confronted by a Jehovah Witness? As the late Father Florovsky stated," Reunification will only happen by way of a process of recognizing the delusion and pride which have caused schisms and by way of repentance." The Orthodox Church is Living Tradition, which is sacred and Holy. The Orthodox Church, in witnessing Christ among the heterodox, can never regard herself as just another denomination among a multitude of others, or another branch of some wider Church. The Orthodox are not linked to another church outside of Orthodoxy. The WCC would have you think otherwise, since we all pray to the same God and that we should embrace all religions. Joint prayer, joint cooperation, and co-signing of its pronouncements help this confederation  to cultivate its consciousness as an 'ecumenical church", embracing everyone and stressing our commonalities. What place does Holy Orthodoxy have in a pan-heretical organization which has turned into a club for religious people and groups in which, indeed, it is not necessary that they even be Christian. What real contribution does the Orthodox make by remaining in these types of "clubs"? Has our presence spread the Truth of Orthodoxy? Has the heterodox returned to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and Church through dialogue in these ecumenical councils? Are the Orthodox, who feel the dire necessity, to continue to participate in these ecumenical clubs finally accepting an ecclesiological minimalism, a unity with the heterodox that is merely ethical in nature, a unity of syncretistic co-existence?
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« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2012, 02:09:15 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense. Any faith outside of Orthodoxy is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  It is "they" that need to come back to the True Faith and denounce any false teachings.
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« Reply #81 on: February 22, 2012, 02:54:05 PM »

vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.
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« Reply #82 on: February 22, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »

Quote
vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.
I think by that, vasily is meaning like the WCC, the NCC, et al. Not THE councils.

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« Reply #83 on: February 22, 2012, 03:02:46 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense. Any faith outside of Orthodoxy is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  It is "they" that need to come back to the True Faith and denounce any false teachings.

If you ever have the opportunity, I would encourage you to ask Bishop Michael of the NY/NJ OCA Diocese, or Metropolitan Jonah for that matter, if this statement is, as you label it 'pure nonsense.' I suspect you would take issue with the response.
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« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2012, 03:04:36 PM »

Since the Orthodox doctrines are the right ones(not the better ones), why do we need to understand the various heterodox doctrines?

In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists.

Quote
The Church addresses to them a monologue inviting them to return to its fold through rejection of any dissenting doctrines.

And The Church also tries to understand and discusses with all kinds of people.

Quote
The priority in the Orthodox Church is missionary work, to educate those outside the church.

I don't see how is contradictiory to ecumenism. We can and should have both.

I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

Alpo and podkarpatska stop being so reasonable.
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« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2012, 03:43:56 PM »

Quote
In order not to bear false witness against our neighbour. Which seems to be favourite hobby of most vocal anti-ecumenists
nobody is bearing false witness

Many people most certainly are doing just that. Or have we forgot propaganda about worship of Mary? Or that we try to save ourselves by works and not at all by faith? etc.

Quote
One more thing, let us look at the Apostles and the Fathers.

Like St. Basil, St Gregory of Nazianzen and St. Mark of Ephesus?

Quote
Did the Apostles form a a group to "understand and be united with our brothers in Judaism?"

Inter-religious dialogue and ecumenism are two different things.

Quote
What about the schismatic churches? Did Orthodoxy form a group to better "understand" and "stand with" the Nestorians after they were deemed heretical? Nope.

Somehow I doubt that the Fathers refused to listen and learn what they believe in and pontificated on an internet forum instead. Smiley

Quote
Why should we?

Because we're Orthodox Christians.

Quote from: vasily
Missionary work is contradictory to ecumenism.

Why?

Pure nonsense. Any faith outside of Orthodoxy is at odds with Orthodox teaching.  It is "they" that need to come back to the True Faith and denounce any false teachings.

I don't think this is how the Fathers approached the issue.

EDIT: The funny thing is that I'm actually rather critical of ecumenism and here I find myself defending it.  Tongue
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« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2012, 03:51:21 PM »

Quote from: podkarpatska
I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense.

So you're saying that it could never happen that "expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept" appear to be at odds with Orthodox teaching but really aren't.
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« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2012, 03:55:47 PM »

The funny thing is that I'm actually rather critical of ecumenism and here I find myself defending it.  Tongue

I'm rather critical of ecumenism, but on OCnet I feel like I'm always defending it!  Shocked   Grin

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« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2012, 03:58:20 PM »

The funny thing is that I'm actually rather critical of ecumenism and here I find myself defending it.  Tongue

I'm rather critical of ecumenism, but on OCnet I feel like I'm always defending it!  Shocked   Grin



I have the same relationship with Roman Catholicism.
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« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2012, 04:07:30 PM »

Quote from: podkarpatska
I would just add that one reason for talking to each other is too determine if any of the expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept are truly at odds with Orthodox teaching or if they are simply misconstrued and whether any perceived differences have been exaggerated over time as a result of linguistic usage, distance and by the use of heated polemic as a rhetorical tool.

 Pure nonsense.


So you're saying that it could never happen that "expressions and words that others may use to describe this or that concept" appear to be at odds with Orthodox teaching but really aren't.

As a simplistic example consider that Academic A may describe Mount Everest as " a very big mountain." Academic B may describe Everest as "a really tall mountain." Academic C may describe Everest as "a very tall, really big and 'difficult to climb mountain'. A, B and C are expressing variations of the same concept, but using different descriptive methods to convey each one's point.

If they are not discussing mountain climbing, A and B may take offense at C's gratuitous inclusion of the fact that Everest is difficult to climb. A and B may quibble about the distinction between big and tall. And so on....

That being said, as to that tiny, little fragment of a concept regarding the nature of the mountain, one can not say that A, B and C have a meaningful disagreement.

Now, if A asserts that Everest is a very big mountain, B asserts that 'bigness' is a relative concept and C wonders how can we determine what is, or is not, really a mountain; but if it is a mountain, than it is really tall and very big - then you have an insolvable dilemma.

Discussion - not compromise - allows one to separate the first example of disagreement from the second one. At that point you can begin to persuade B and C that there are such things as mountains and that  GPS technology can accurately determine their size.

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« Reply #90 on: February 22, 2012, 04:09:33 PM »

Quote
Many people most certainly are doing just that. Or have we forgot propaganda about worship of Mary? Or that we try to save ourselves by works and not at all by faith? etc
So this is what the WCC does? Educate on other traditions? Really? How has these views changed? Oh, thay haven't because that is not what the WCC does.

Quote
St. Mark of Ephesus?
The same St. Mark that fought against heresies? The same St. Mark that refused to give the west an inch? The same St. Mark that charged his disciple to defend Orthodoxy? Awesome example Smiley

Quote
St. Basil, St Gregory of Nazianzen
The same who fought Arianism and didn't try to "find common ground as Christians?"

Quote
Inter-religious dialogue and ecumenism are two different things
As I said before, dialogue can (and has) been done without ascribing to some great "big-tent".

Quote
Somehow I doubt that the Fathers refused to listen and learn what they believe in and pontificated on an internet forum instead
Well since the internet wasn't around...in other news I believe some councils were set up stating what the faith was, and what it wasn't. So yeah, they did refuse to give creedence to those in schism. If they were here on earth today, I doubt they'd play house with folks who ordain an openly gay bishop who divorced his wife to practice homosexuality and call him bishop (Episcopal Church), or blesses same sex marriages (United Church of Christ), or those that deny the Eucharist (most protestants). There is no way that the fathers would dare be seen hand in hand with these folks. Would they say that they are not Christian? I can't say, but I dont think they would judge like that. But they would keep these folks at least, at arms leangth.

I am not saying there should not be dialogue, but it should be done from the outside, giving assistance when it is possible. We can claim to be the true faith all we want, but if we get in the water with fish, you're gonna get wet.

PP
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« Reply #91 on: February 22, 2012, 04:15:13 PM »

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St. Mark of Ephesus?
The same St. Mark that fought against heresies? The same St. Mark that refused to give the west an inch? The same St. Mark that charged his disciple to defend Orthodoxy? Awesome example Smiley

The St. Mark that attended Florence and was a full participant up until the point they actually enacted a false union.
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« Reply #92 on: February 22, 2012, 04:17:05 PM »

Quote
St. Mark of Ephesus?
The same St. Mark that fought against heresies? The same St. Mark that refused to give the west an inch? The same St. Mark that charged his disciple to defend Orthodoxy? Awesome example Smiley

The St. Mark that attended Florence and was a full participant up until the point they actually enacted a false union.

but if he stopped participating after this full union, how is that a plus for using him as a model for the WCC?

PP
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« Reply #93 on: February 22, 2012, 04:19:49 PM »

in other news I believe some councils were set up stating what the faith was, and what it wasn't.

And I suppose the Orthodox Churches that participate in the WCC don't state what the faith is and what it isn't?  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #94 on: February 22, 2012, 04:22:32 PM »

in other news I believe some councils were set up stating what the faith was, and what it wasn't.

And I suppose the Orthodox Churches that participate in the WCC don't state what the faith is and what it isn't?  Roll Eyes
That is not what I was stating. That was in regard to the argument that the fathers would have given ear to the other denominations. History shows otherwise by the councils.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #95 on: February 22, 2012, 04:24:56 PM »

Quote
St. Mark of Ephesus?
The same St. Mark that fought against heresies? The same St. Mark that refused to give the west an inch? The same St. Mark that charged his disciple to defend Orthodoxy? Awesome example Smiley

The St. Mark that attended Florence and was a full participant up until the point they actually enacted a false union.

but if he stopped participating after this full union, how is that a plus for using him as a model for the WCC?

PP

How is our current participation in the WCC any different than the actual example of St. Mark?
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« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2012, 04:27:54 PM »


I am not saying there should not be dialogue, but it should be done from the outside, giving assistance when it is possible. We can claim to be the true faith all we want, but if we get in the water with fish, you're gonna get wet.

PP

True, but fish, crustaceans and water-dwelling mammals all share a vested interest in preserving their habitats. That doesn't stop sharks from eating other fish, killer whales from eating dolphins, big crabs from eating little crabs and from them all eating each other. They co-exist in the same oceans and are adapted to  protecting themselves from their predators. Are we Orthodox no less capable of protecting our own interests in a big sea than a lowly crustacean?
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« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2012, 04:29:38 PM »

Quote
St. Mark of Ephesus?
The same St. Mark that fought against heresies? The same St. Mark that refused to give the west an inch? The same St. Mark that charged his disciple to defend Orthodoxy? Awesome example Smiley

The St. Mark that attended Florence and was a full participant up until the point they actually enacted a false union.

but if he stopped participating after this full union, how is that a plus for using him as a model for the WCC?

PP

How is our current participation in the WCC any different than the actual example of St. Mark?
There is nothing being done. Is there more understanding between the various traditions? No. Is there more education on what the others believe? No. Is this council's purpose to unite into 1 Church? No.

Sitting around and giving the predicted answers to issues does nothing. Yes, hunger is bad, so is war, injustice, torture, evil, racism, and poverty. These are the statements coming out of the WCC. It is a waste of time and resources. These are statements that need no council to issue.

If the WCC actually accomplished something, I would be 100% behind it.

If the Church wants to have dialogue about beliefs, let it be 1-on-1. There is actual proof that such dialogue DOES work. But on such a scale nothing has been accomplished. I think that St. Mark would have walked away as well, simply because such a council would be considered a fool's errand.

PP
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« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2012, 04:48:13 PM »

Quote
St. Mark of Ephesus?
The same St. Mark that fought against heresies? The same St. Mark that refused to give the west an inch? The same St. Mark that charged his disciple to defend Orthodoxy? Awesome example Smiley

The St. Mark that attended Florence and was a full participant up until the point they actually enacted a false union.

but if he stopped participating after this full union, how is that a plus for using him as a model for the WCC?

PP

I didn't see this post at first. Even now that I do see it, it doesn't make sense to me. Has there been a union as the result of Orthodox participation in WCC? I'm sure there are some individual Orthodox, somewhere or other, who are in the process of converting to other Christian bodies, but that can hardly be attributed to the Orthodox participation in WCC.
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« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2012, 04:51:05 PM »

Quote
I didn't see this post at first. Even now that I do see it, it doesn't make sense to me. Has there been a full union as the resultof the WCC? I'm sure there are some individual Orthodox, somewhere or other, who are in the process of converting to other Christian bodies, but that can hardly be attributed to the Orthodox participation in WCC
Sorry, I was referring to St. Mark walking away from the council after the union was reached. If he walked away, not willing to find common ground, my question was how can he be used as an example?

Sorry if I was confusing.

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« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2012, 05:26:05 PM »

Quote
I didn't see this post at first. Even now that I do see it, it doesn't make sense to me. Has there been a full union as the resultof the WCC? I'm sure there are some individual Orthodox, somewhere or other, who are in the process of converting to other Christian bodies, but that can hardly be attributed to the Orthodox participation in WCC
Sorry, I was referring to St. Mark walking away from the council after the union was reached. If he walked away, not willing to find common ground, my question was how can he be used as an example?

Sorry if I was confusing.

PP

I'm still not following your train of thought. St. Mark's attendance at Florence shows he was willing to talk. His behavior after Florence showed he was unwilling to accept a false union. Since no one is signing any union documents (false or otherwise) at the WCC, it is his response to talking, not to false union which seems the relevent example.

Quote
If the Church wants to have dialogue about beliefs, let it be 1-on-1. There is actual proof that such dialogue DOES work. But on such a scale nothing has been accomplished. I think that St. Mark would have walked away as well, simply because such a council would be considered a fool's errand.

And if someone else has the personal opinion that St. Mark wouldn't walk away, what makes your opinion more valid than theirs?

(BTW, I'm in somewhat the same position as Alpo--I *agree* with you that the modern WCC is waste of time and resources and the best thing the Church could do at this point would be to walk away. But that's not my call to make, it's the bishops. And while I think they should make a different decision than they currently do, I can't argue that their decision is actually illegitimate. After all, the EO-OO talks were initiated under the auspices of the WCC--and I think there is ample proof that those talks actually have led to some significant progress.)


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« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2012, 05:29:42 PM »

Quote
I didn't see this post at first. Even now that I do see it, it doesn't make sense to me. Has there been a full union as the resultof the WCC? I'm sure there are some individual Orthodox, somewhere or other, who are in the process of converting to other Christian bodies, but that can hardly be attributed to the Orthodox participation in WCC
Sorry, I was referring to St. Mark walking away from the council after the union was reached. If he walked away, not willing to find common ground, my question was how can he be used as an example?

He was most certainly willing to find common ground. If he wasn't he wouldn't have discussed with Catholics. Also, him walking away is a prime example of proper ecumenism since unity with false compromises is bad unity and bad ecumenism.

Quote
Sitting around and giving the predicted answers to issues does nothing. Yes, hunger is bad, so is war, injustice, torture, evil, racism, and poverty. These are the statements coming out of the WCC. It is a waste of time and resources. These are statements that need no council to issue.

So since the World already knows what Christianity teaches we can stop evangelism?

Quote
The same who fought Arianism and didn't try to "find common ground as Christians?"

The same who said that separation from other Christians tears them apart. That's how we all should feel.

Quote
As I said before, dialogue can (and has) been done without ascribing to some great "big-tent".

Now you lost me. What do you mean?
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« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2012, 05:46:03 PM »

Quote
So since the World already knows what Christianity teaches we can stop evangelism?
The goal of the WCC is not evangelism.

Quote
He was most certainly willing to find common ground. If he wasn't he wouldn't have discussed with Catholics
yeah, but when they would not move, he left and would not be associated with them.

Quote
And if someone else has the personal opinion that St. Mark wouldn't walk away, what makes your opinion more valid than theirs?
Nothing. As I have said on multiple threads multiple times. This is my opinion. You're entitled to yours. I'll argue, but I wont sit here and yell thunderbolts that "Your opinion is of satan" or some other rubbish. Just the opinion of one guy...nothing more.

Quote
Also, him walking away is a prime example of proper ecumenism since unity with false compromises is bad unity and bad ecumenism
That's the thing. There is no talks of union. I just feel that St. Mark would not sit down with folks who outright deny the eucharist and have the stances these people take.

Quote
I can't argue that their decision is actually illegitimate
No. I would never say that the bishop's decisions are illegitimate. Never. This is my opinion. If my bishop (for some insane reason) asked me to join him in going to one of these meetings, I would go (maybe they need a computer to be fixed, or need a bouncer....) Wink

Big-Tent = Im ok, you're ok, our differences dont matter, all that matters is Jesus.

PP
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« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2012, 05:58:38 PM »

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So since the World already knows what Christianity teaches we can stop evangelism?
The goal of the WCC is not evangelism.

Nope but your idea seemed to be that there is no need for statements on Christian ethics since everybody already knows what Christianity teaches.

Quote
yeah, but when they would not move, he left and would not be associated with them.

Yes, because of false union. That's how ecumenism works. He did however associate them in the sense that he travelled a long way to talk with them in a seemingly hopeless situation.

Quote
That's the thing. There is no talks of union.

After having this discussion I'm not sure whether I'd like to hear the outrage about pan-heresy ecumenism if there was. Tongue Union of all is the aim but since we aren't there yet we can always talk about specifics of union. Such as Christian ethics or ecclesiology.

Quote
I just feel that St. Mark would not sit down with folks who outright deny the eucharist and have the stances these people take.

Well he did sit down with folks who believed in Filioque, papacy, purgatory etc. Those are heresies too.

Quote
Big-Tent = Im ok, you're ok, our differences dont matter, all that matters is Jesus.

I don't think this is how WCC works. Surely there are people within WCC who think like that but that isn't the official policy.
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« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2012, 09:03:22 PM »

Quote
I didn't see this post at first. Even now that I do see it, it doesn't make sense to me. Has there been a full union as the resultof the WCC? I'm sure there are some individual Orthodox, somewhere or other, who are in the process of converting to other Christian bodies, but that can hardly be attributed to the Orthodox participation in WCC
Sorry, I was referring to St. Mark walking away from the council after the union was reached. If he walked away, not willing to find common ground, my question was how can he be used as an example?

Sorry if I was confusing.

PP

Oh that's alright. I just want to let you know that you (inadvertently) argued against your own position.

Quote
Quote
The St. Mark that attended Florence and was a full participant up until the point they actually enacted a false union.
but if he stopped participating after this full union, how is that a plus for using him as a model for the WCC?
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« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2012, 12:02:56 PM »

Quote
Nope but your idea seemed to be that there is no need for statements on Christian ethics since everybody already knows what Christianity teaches
No, my idea is that such statements can be made. But we dont need to be of some body, wasting time and resources to do it.

Having a group set up for such purposes is meaningless.

Quote
Yes, because of false union. That's how ecumenism works. He did however associate them in the sense that he travelled a long way to talk with them in a seemingly hopeless situation
True, he did meet, and left. We met and stayed....and are still there.

Quote
Well he did sit down with folks who believed in Filioque, papacy, purgatory etc. Those are heresies too
Sitting down and discussing I have no problem with. It's staying when it is obvious that they have no desire nor inclination to unite.

PP

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« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2012, 12:11:32 PM »

Quote
Yes, because of false union. That's how ecumenism works. He did however associate them in the sense that he travelled a long way to talk with them in a seemingly hopeless situation
True, he did meet, and left. We met and stayed....and are still there.

You just don't seem to get what people are saying here. Mark of Ephesus rejected the union that was declared; but in the current situation, no union has been declared between the Eastern Orthodox and the RCC, or ACNA, or the Anglican Communion, or the ELCA ...

Hence, there isn't an opportunity for an Orthodox bishop to stand up, as new Mark of Ephesus if you will, and say "I reject this union."
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« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2012, 12:36:30 PM »

Tell you what. I just read the assumptions from the toronto statement on their website. You can definitely keep them now. Im going to end my participation because I'll not be able to add anything of value. Folks can read it and come to their own conclusions. I will not be convinced that this body has merit. This body in my opinion is a waste of time. However, if other hold to a differing opinion, God bless you and good luck.

PP
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« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2012, 10:50:21 AM »

vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.

 I am familiar with what ecumenical councils are and represent. The WCC & NCC do not constitute an ecumenical council. The Ecumenical Councils made decisions concerning the One. Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 I think that one must seriously consider whether the Orthodox presence and our dialogue in both the WCC & the NCC has been productive? Since both the WCC and the NCC stress the "branch" theory, that all Christian groups hold certain truths, and a commonality, how has the Orthodox presence changed this? Should the Orthodox consider other alternatives to evangelizing the heterodox?
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« Reply #109 on: February 24, 2012, 12:33:08 PM »

vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.
I am familiar with what ecumenical councils are and represent.

Yeah, alright. [/sarcasm] Talk to the person who said

Has the heterodox returned to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and Church through dialogue in these ecumenical councils?
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« Reply #110 on: February 24, 2012, 04:23:31 PM »

vasily, I think you should study up on church history and learn what an ecumenical council is.
I am familiar with what ecumenical councils are and represent.

Yeah, alright. [/sarcasm] Talk to the person who said

Has the heterodox returned to the unity of the Orthodox Faith and Church through dialogue in these ecumenical councils?


I think there may be some confusion here when using the term "ecumenical council," as one may be using that term in regards to the modern day councils such as the NCC and WCC, modern councils which are often described as being "ecumenical" because they include a variety of different Christian denominations. Not to be confused with the Holy 7 Ecumenical Councils.

So I think Vasily may understand the difference between the two but maybe he just didn't type clearly what he was meaning to say, which is easy to do on here.
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« Reply #111 on: February 24, 2012, 04:36:08 PM »

I dont get it. Its pretty obvious what Vasily was talking about.

WCC, et al. = ecumenical council

The councils = Ecumenical Councils

PP
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« Reply #112 on: February 24, 2012, 04:38:39 PM »

I dont get it. Its pretty obvious what Vasily was talking about.

WCC, et al. = ecumenical council

The councils = Ecumenical Councils

PP

Yea I thought so too, but sometimes it's easy to misread what people mean to say.
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« Reply #113 on: February 24, 2012, 04:40:54 PM »

I dont get it. Its pretty obvious what Vasily was talking about.

WCC, et al. = ecumenical council

The councils = Ecumenical Councils

PP

Yea I thought so too, but sometimes it's easy to misread what people mean to say.
Totally understandable.

PP
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« Reply #114 on: February 25, 2012, 10:17:53 AM »

 So far, in this poll, around 26% agree with the Orthodox involvement in the WCC. I would seriously know why you feel this way? I am out to defend the other side of the fence on this issue, so lets begin the debate.
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« Reply #115 on: February 25, 2012, 10:25:13 AM »

How can you teach people anything if you don't go and talk to them?

What you might gain is a chance to alert people of the history of the Church and thereby make them more sympathetic to you. Many Protestant churches today deny the history of the faith and assert pretty bizarre things in its place. Are we saying it's not important to go and wake them up out of that?

I don't get the 'we don't gain anything' argument. Is your mission to convert the world, or not?
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« Reply #116 on: February 25, 2012, 11:45:45 AM »

WCC, et al. = ecumenical council

The councils = Ecumenical Councils

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. The WCC and the NCC don't call themselves either "Ecumenical Councils" or "ecumenical councils". Neither does ARCIC for that matter.
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« Reply #117 on: February 25, 2012, 06:33:24 PM »

WCC, et al. = ecumenical council

The councils = Ecumenical Councils

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. The WCC and the NCC don't call themselves either "Ecumenical Councils" or "ecumenical councils". Neither does ARCIC for that matter.

Here's a link that somewhat defines the modern popular usage of the word ecumenism when speaking from a Christian standpoint:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenism

So keeping this in mind, calling the WCC or NCC an ecumenical council is understandable.
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« Reply #118 on: February 28, 2012, 09:21:25 AM »

WCC, et al. = ecumenical council

The councils = Ecumenical Councils

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. The WCC and the NCC don't call themselves either "Ecumenical Councils" or "ecumenical councils". Neither does ARCIC for that matter.
Then I submit a new name for them.

ecumenist councils Smiley

PP
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« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2012, 09:57:31 AM »

How can you teach people anything if you don't go and talk to them?

What you might gain is a chance to alert people of the history of the Church and thereby make them more sympathetic to you. Many Protestant churches today deny the history of the faith and assert pretty bizarre things in its place. Are we saying it's not important to go and wake them up out of that?

I don't get the 'we don't gain anything' argument. Is your mission to convert the world, or not?

Again and again we meet this tired equation of ecumenism with missionary work. What actually goes on at these meetings? A bunch of official representatives of the various groups come together, discuss some points, find some superficial agreements, and hammer out a statement bland enough to express them. That is not an effective way of preaching Orthodoxy. Has anyone heard of an official representative at the WCC, NCC, etc. converting to Orthodoxy because of our "witness" there? Maybe it's happened, I don't know.

More broadly, how many on-the-ground Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. actually pay any attention (close or otherwise) to the goings-on at these meetings? If they do, what impression are they getting of the Orthodox, and how is that perception being filtered? 
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« Reply #120 on: February 28, 2012, 10:00:42 AM »

How can you teach people anything if you don't go and talk to them?

What you might gain is a chance to alert people of the history of the Church and thereby make them more sympathetic to you. Many Protestant churches today deny the history of the faith and assert pretty bizarre things in its place. Are we saying it's not important to go and wake them up out of that?

I don't get the 'we don't gain anything' argument. Is your mission to convert the world, or not?

Again and again we meet this tired equation of ecumenism with missionary work. What actually goes on at these meetings? A bunch of official representatives of the various groups come together, discuss some points, find some superficial agreements, and hammer out a statement bland enough to express them. That is not an effective way of preaching Orthodoxy. Has anyone heard of an official representative at the WCC, NCC, etc. converting to Orthodoxy because of our "witness" there? Maybe it's happened, I don't know.

More broadly, how many on-the-ground Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. actually pay any attention (close or otherwise) to the goings-on at these meetings? If they do, what impression are they getting of the Orthodox, and how is that perception being filtered? 
Thank you!!!!!!
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« Reply #121 on: February 28, 2012, 10:20:42 AM »

Again and again we meet this tired equation of ecumenism with missionary work.

That cuts both ways, though. If it is true that ecumenism shouldn't present itself as missionary work, it equally true that missionary work shouldn't present itself as ecumenism.

Quote from: Vatican II
However, it is evident that, when individuals wish for full Catholic communion, their preparation and reconciliation is an undertaking which of its nature is distinct from ecumenical action. But there is no opposition between the two, since both proceed from the marvelous ways of God.

(Sorry if I'm going a little off-topic.)
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« Reply #122 on: February 28, 2012, 10:37:25 AM »

I said I would not come back into the discussion....looks like that didn't go too well.

As I have said. Not a soul has been converted to Orthodoxy because of the WCC (at least it was not reported). Also, I know the WCC has a mission to share in missionary efforts, but is that something Orthodoxy really wants to do?

I think it can really bring up conflict when groups who are branch Theorists missionize (a word?) with orthodox who are vehemently against this.

PP
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« Reply #123 on: February 28, 2012, 11:37:25 AM »

I said I would not come back into the discussion....looks like that didn't go too well.

As I have said. Not a soul has been converted to Orthodoxy because of the WCC (at least it was not reported). Also, I know the WCC has a mission to share in missionary efforts, but is that something Orthodoxy really wants to do?

I think it can really bring up conflict when groups who are branch Theorists missionize (a word?) with orthodox who are vehemently against this.

Can you show that this even happens? I'm not saying definitely that it doesn't, but I'm skeptical.
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« Reply #124 on: February 28, 2012, 12:18:16 PM »

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/news-management/eng/a/article/1637/christians-reach-broad-co.htmlThis is the url about the mission statement agreed upon in the WCC. At the bottom is the actual statement. It seems innocent enough, but it really makes it difficult for Orthodox to stand on principle if such a thing were to happen.

I apologize if I alluded to the contrary, but no such missionizing (still not sure if thats a word) has happened yet to my knowledge. However, the door is open for such things based upon the statement which was agreed to all. More than a few of the members of the WCC do adhere to the Branch Theory (as it is really just an extension of the Invisible Church theory).

Sorry if I confused.

PP
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« Reply #125 on: February 28, 2012, 12:42:46 PM »

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/news-management/eng/a/article/1637/christians-reach-broad-co.htmlThis is the url about the mission statement agreed upon in the WCC. At the bottom is the actual statement. It seems innocent enough, but it really makes it difficult for Orthodox to stand on principle if such a thing were to happen.

I read the webpage you linked to. Is there something in it that you object to?

I haven't yet read the document in question, but I'll probably do so later today.
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« Reply #126 on: February 28, 2012, 12:46:18 PM »

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/news-management/eng/a/article/1637/christians-reach-broad-co.htmlThis is the url about the mission statement agreed upon in the WCC. At the bottom is the actual statement. It seems innocent enough, but it really makes it difficult for Orthodox to stand on principle if such a thing were to happen.

I read the webpage you linked to. Is there something in it that you object to?

I haven't yet read the document in question, but I'll probably do so later today.
What I object to is not what is written, but what it implies. My opinion is that the statement pushes the idea of "Im ok, you're ok, its all for Christ". For me, that is simply too broad of a statement if Orthodox are to stand on principles on what is believed. If going to Africa to missionize with a WCC group, you'll have some folks saying that the magic prayer is the only way, some say that it is in the Church, others saying its some kind of convoluted semi-Calvinistic way.

"Its all about Jesus" is nice on paper, but in practice it would be a nightmare.

Please understand, this is simply the way I took it.

PP
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« Reply #127 on: February 28, 2012, 02:12:02 PM »

http://www.oikoumene.org/en/news/news-management/eng/a/article/1637/christians-reach-broad-co.htmlThis is the url about the mission statement agreed upon in the WCC. At the bottom is the actual statement. It seems innocent enough, but it really makes it difficult for Orthodox to stand on principle if such a thing were to happen.

I read the webpage you linked to. Is there something in it that you object to?

I haven't yet read the document in question, but I'll probably do so later today.
What I object to is not what is written, but what it implies. My opinion is that the statement pushes the idea of "Im ok, you're ok, its all for Christ". For me, that is simply too broad of a statement if Orthodox are to stand on principles on what is believed. If going to Africa to missionize with a WCC group, you'll have some folks saying that the magic prayer is the only way, some say that it is in the Church, others saying its some kind of convoluted semi-Calvinistic way.

"Its all about Jesus" is nice on paper, but in practice it would be a nightmare.

Please understand, this is simply the way I took it.

PP

Thing is, none of us can really challenge, or do anything about, the way that you took it. We're not inside of you.

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« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2012, 04:55:09 PM »

Quote
Thing is, none of us can really challenge, or do anything about, the way that you took it. We're not inside of you
I was just reiterating that it was an opinion. I dont think I have to tell you how many folks pontificate about certian things and if you dont agree, you're a moron.....
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« Reply #129 on: February 29, 2012, 10:30:53 PM »

Again and again we meet this tired equation of ecumenism with missionary work. What actually goes on at these meetings? A bunch of official representatives of the various groups come together, discuss some points, find some superficial agreements, and hammer out a statement bland enough to express them. That is not an effective way of preaching Orthodoxy. Has anyone heard of an official representative at the WCC, NCC, etc. converting to Orthodoxy because of our "witness" there? Maybe it's happened, I don't know.

This is from the blog article The Goal of Ecumenism (omitting some of the descriptions):

Quote
Ecumenism: Progression of Stages
This “ministry towards unity” is always present, however, it need not be carried out in exactly the same (practical) manner in every particular circumstance.  Nor must it necessarily take place suddenly or all at once.
...

Stage 1:  Charity in Truth

...

Stage 2: Dialogue

...

Stage 3: Cooperation

...

Stage 4: Conversion of Hearts

...

Stage 5: Final Preparation and Reconciliation
The various preliminary stages above are supposed to lead to conversion in the sense of formal enterance into the Catholic Church (i.e., "full and visible communion").  Therefore, this last step is not considered ecumenism, strictly speaking, but rather is considered as the ultimate goal of ecumenism.   
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« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2012, 11:48:56 AM »

 Some points to ponder on.

 It seems that Protestant involvement in ecumenism, being pluralistic in doctrine and activistic in orientation, is seeking agreement on social issues, so that together with other ecumenical groups it may work effectively for the solution of social problems. With the existence of all the different Protestant sects teaching their own interpretations of Scriptures and ideology, there will never be an agreement on what is truth. Roman Catholic involvement is directed to uniting all the rest of the Christians under the Pope as the head of all Christian bodies. History alone has proven this. (One must fully understand that the First Vatican Council taught and put into doctrine," We must hold as of the Faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge." This has been reaffirmed many times, "that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church." Per Vatican II, this is also part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church( no. 776)). Orthodox involvement,as it was conceived by George Florovsky and was carried on by Orthodox theologians, prior to the innovations of Patriarch Athenagoras, was a movement to conduct missionary activity and to convert the non-Orthodox to the Orthodox Church. This has yet to became a reality.

 Patriarch Athenagoras replaced the doctrinal approach of Orthodox ecumenism by a political approach. The Patriarch appears to have believed that by avoiding discussions on the doctrinal differences which separate the Orthodox from the heterodox the Patriarch would win support of the heterodox and in turn would put pressure on the Turkish government. (This was in 1963) The beginning of the active participation of the Orthodox Church in the ecumenical movement dates from 1924. That year Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis introduced the new calender into the church in Constantinople. The Patriarch introduced the new calender without any consultation with the other Orthodox  Churches. Was this calender change an effort to conform to the heterodox? This decision went against the synodal form of decision making that existed in the church. This was to divide the Orthodox.

 Those Orthodox who are involved in the ecumenical and interfaith movements are disregarding the Holy Canons. The 45th and 65th Apostolic Canons. The 65th Canon is contained in the rudder, the constitution of the Orthodox Church and states," If any clergyman. or layman, enter a synagogue of Jews or of heretics, to pray, let them be both deposed and excommunicated." The intent of these Canons is to protect the Orthodox Faith from any kind of relativistic misunderstanding.
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« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2012, 11:58:49 AM »

I would like to give my views on the below points:

Quote
Stage 1:  Charity in Truth
This can definitely happen with the WCC

Quote
Stage 2: Dialogue
This is also happening, but I must ask dialogue on what? Theological dialogue? Social dialogue? Morality?

Quote
Stage 3: Cooperation
Again, cooperation on what? Helping the poor? Ok, that is good. Victims of tragedies? Ok sure. Missionary activities? Should we do that as Orthodox? Missionize with say, Lutherans? This doesn't ring alarm bells?

Quote
Stage 4: Conversion of Hearts
Ok, conversion of hearts how? For love? That would be good, but what if its Christian conversion of hearts. That is when you run into real problems.

Quote
Stage 5: Final Preparation and Reconciliation
Final preparation for what? Unity? There is only 1 unity that is acceptable. That is all coming back to the faith of the Apostles, which is Orthodoxy. I doubt very seriously that any of the above would do anything to bring all back to Orthodoxy.

I would ask, has any "denomination" came back to Orthodoxy from ANY group like this?

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« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2012, 12:06:29 PM »

 In these ecumenical groups comes the "branch theory" of the Church, where there exists many Christians Churches and the Orthodox is just one of many. This branch theory stands in glaring contradiction to the Orthodox Symbol of Faith, the Creed, which states that there is only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Of all the Christian bodies, the Orthodox Church is the only one that remained the faithful keeper of the whole Sacred Tradition, avoiding heretical doctrines and other unwarranted innovations. The Faith does not alter with the times, it does not deteriorate from circumstances, but remains the same, both old and new.

 So how is union with the heterodox to the Orthodox Faith even possible through our involvement in ecumenical circles? Is the search for the Truth important in these ecumenical circle? I seriously think it is time for the Orthodox who participate in any of these ecumenical or interfaith movements to reconsider their position. After all these years of our involvement the West has yet to grasp anything Orthodox. Have any of our goals of the Orthodox been achieved?  Our continued involvement disregards what the Lord told His Disciples, "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." (Matt. 28:19-20).

 Would Christianity exist today, if the Holy Apostles ,instead of preaching repentance, as they were commanded by our Lord and God, had undertaken interfaith dialogues and cooperated with idolaters for the supposed good of the world? What purpose does the Orthodox have in interfaith participation when the CC has had speakers such as the Presbyterian  theologian Dr. Chung and the Dalai Lama? Are these speakers and others , the 'speakers" of Truth?
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« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2012, 12:16:34 PM »

I just think Orthodoxy needs to approach groups in a singular fashion. The Orthodox and the RC's are making headway here in the USA (of course I doubt union any time soon but real, measurable progress is made). More than one group joined Orthodoxy due to direct talks. I will be chrismated in a month directly because of such talks. Talking directly with groups who are interested in Orthodoxy does so much more than grouping with folks and hoping for the best.


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« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2012, 12:29:59 PM »

 Meanwhile, incidents have happened behind our backs. After the liberation of Romania in 1989, 10,000 copies of the Bible in the Romanian language were sent to Romanian Orthodox parishes by a Protestant source in the USA. It was discovered that the word "idol" had been consistently translated "icon" in an attempt to undermine Orthodox dogmatic teachings. While the Oecumenical Patriarch and the Pope exchange greetings in the spirit of a "theology of love", the Ukrainian Catholics are proselytizing among the Orthodox and taking over Orthodox Churches by force. After the fall of communism, all the Protestant and Evangelical groups sent to Eastern Europe, Russia, and Ukraine to convert those "people" to Christianity.

 Recommendations:
1. Withdraw and break off all relations and dialogues with the ecumenical and interfaith movements.
2. Cultivate pan-Orthodox unity, cooperation to the highest degree possible, so that peace and love will exist among all the Eastern Orthodox.
3. Rekindle the Eucharist life and the concord of Faith. Educate and create an awareness concerning Orthodoxy, the history, traditions and teachings of the church.
4. Promote the Liturgical, theological wealth of Patristic Traditions and return to the purity of the Orthodox Faith. (Let us discard/eliminate any Western innovations that have invaded the Orthodox Church).
5. To develop in love and humility all of the invaluable gifts of charismatic Orthodoxy, s a responsible missionary offering and invitation to the contemporary world.

 I would like to thank and highly recommend the following authors for their works on this subject matter. They have written what I think. Thank God for the Truth seekers.

Ecumenism Examined by Constantine Cavarnos-Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies
The Rush to Embrace by Archpriest Alexey Young-Nikodemos Orthodox Publication Society
Orthodox Christianity and the Spirit of Contemporary Ecumenism by Father Daniel Degyansky-Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies
Against False Union by Alexander Kalomiros-St. Nectarios Press
Ecumenism: A Movement for Union or a Syncretistic Heresy? by Bishop Angelos of Avlona-Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies
Orthodox and the Ecumenical Movement by Archimandrite Cyprian Agiokyprianites- Center for Tradtionalist Orthodox Studies
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« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2012, 06:20:02 PM »

Also, not all Protestants belong to the WCC.  The Conservative factions of several denominations will have nothing to do with the WCC and consider it Antichrist.  In fact, membership in the WCC is one of the main stumbling blocks that I have found when trying to evangelize conservative Lutherans.  I have been told, on more than one occasion, that while much of what we teach makes good sense to them, the fact that we are members of the Antichrist WCC is proof enough that we teach falsely.  Heck, even the Catholics know better than to join the masons and belong to the WCC.  That is quite a statement coming from a conservative Lutheran!  Truth be told, it was the Antiochian membership in the WCC (and the abundance of open Masons) that first sent me to the ROCOR one year after my conversion.  I got tired of making excuses.
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« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2012, 06:30:36 PM »

Meanwhile, incidents have happened behind our backs. After the liberation of Romania in 1989, 10,000 copies of the Bible in the Romanian language were sent to Romanian Orthodox parishes by a Protestant source in the USA. It was discovered that the word "idol" had been consistently translated "icon" in an attempt to undermine Orthodox dogmatic teachings. While the Oecumenical Patriarch and the Pope exchange greetings in the spirit of a "theology of love", the Ukrainian Catholics are proselytizing among the Orthodox and taking over Orthodox Churches by force. After the fall of communism, all the Protestant and Evangelical groups sent to Eastern Europe, Russia, and Ukraine to convert those "people" to Christianity.

 Recommendations:
1. Withdraw and break off all relations and dialogues with the ecumenical and interfaith movements.
2. Cultivate pan-Orthodox unity, cooperation to the highest degree possible, so that peace and love will exist among all the Eastern Orthodox.
3. Rekindle the Eucharist life and the concord of Faith. Educate and create an awareness concerning Orthodoxy, the history, traditions and teachings of the church.
4. Promote the Liturgical, theological wealth of Patristic Traditions and return to the purity of the Orthodox Faith. (Let us discard/eliminate any Western innovations that have invaded the Orthodox Church).
5. To develop in love and humility all of the invaluable gifts of charismatic Orthodoxy, s a responsible missionary offering and invitation to the contemporary world.

 I would like to thank and highly recommend the following authors for their works on this subject matter. They have written what I think. Thank God for the Truth seekers.

Ecumenism Examined by Constantine Cavarnos-Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies
The Rush to Embrace by Archpriest Alexey Young-Nikodemos Orthodox Publication Society
Orthodox Christianity and the Spirit of Contemporary Ecumenism by Father Daniel Degyansky-Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies
Against False Union by Alexander Kalomiros-St. Nectarios Press
Ecumenism: A Movement for Union or a Syncretistic Heresy? by Bishop Angelos of Avlona-Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies
Orthodox and the Ecumenical Movement by Archimandrite Cyprian Agiokyprianites- Center for Tradtionalist Orthodox Studies


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Peter J
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« Reply #137 on: March 02, 2012, 09:25:43 AM »

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Stage 5: Final Preparation and Reconciliation
Final preparation for what? Unity? There is only 1 unity that is acceptable. That is all coming back to the faith of the Apostles, which is Orthodoxy. I doubt very seriously that any of the above would do anything to bring all back to Orthodoxy.

Well, the author of that blog is Catholic, so I'm sure that he/she does not agree with you that the faith of the Apostles is Orthodoxy. But if you read the rest of what I quoted, I'm sure you will see that he/she does agree with you that the goal is "all coming back to the faith of the Apostles" (which he/she understands to be Catholicism):

Quote
Stage 5: Final Preparation and Reconciliation
The various preliminary stages above are supposed to lead to conversion in the sense of formal enterance into the Catholic Church (i.e., "full and visible communion").  Therefore, this last step is not considered ecumenism, strictly speaking, but rather is considered as the ultimate goal of ecumenism.   
(emphasis added)
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Peter J
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« Reply #138 on: March 02, 2012, 09:31:06 AM »

Meanwhile, incidents have happened behind our backs. After the liberation of Romania in 1989, 10,000 copies of the Bible in the Romanian language were sent to Romanian Orthodox parishes by a Protestant source in the USA. It was discovered that the word "idol" had been consistently translated "icon" in an attempt to undermine Orthodox dogmatic teachings.

Can you provide a link? I would like to read up on that incident.
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