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Author Topic: "To Jesus, through Mary"  (Read 4502 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2012, 12:56:06 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:57:47 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
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« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2012, 01:06:14 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.

Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often? 

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.
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Ortho_cat
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2012, 01:08:36 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.

Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often? 

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...
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J Michael
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« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2012, 01:10:06 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.

Did you read through the whole thread?  Especially those posts which attempted to offer an explanation of this and place it in its proper context?
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« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2012, 01:13:20 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:14:44 PM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2012, 04:25:22 PM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 04:36:31 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
J Michael
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« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »

Dear Clemente,

I'm hoping that you will indulge my curiosity here by answering a few questions.  Don't worry, they are different questions from the several above that you haven't (yet) answered  Grin.

In reply #28 you wrote: "Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation." and "...since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording."And then, in reply #56 you wrote: "I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear."  

So, here's my confusion--you are Orthodox; you evangelize with (and presumably for) Roman Catholics; you've picked a phrase out of its context from a specifically oriented Roman Catholic website;  you then, because you are evangelizing "some Protestant friends", ask about that Roman Catholic phrase/formulation/notion on an Orthodox website wanting to get, apparently without recourse to your Orthodox priest, an Orthodox opinion about the Roman Catholic phrase your Protestant friends object to.  Are you "evangelizing" them to hopefully become Catholic or to hopefully become Orthodox?  Or, are you just confusing them?  Why did you not bring this to a *Catholic* website if you wanted an explanation of it?  Why do you argue with the Catholics here about the Catholic explanation of it saying, as one who evangelizes Protestants for the Catholics, that you wanted an *Orthodox* explanation of it or to know if it is, indeed, "Orthodox"? 

See the confusion??

To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
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« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2012, 06:14:23 PM »

Dear Clemente,

I'm hoping that you will indulge my curiosity here by answering a few questions.  Don't worry, they are different questions from the several above that you haven't (yet) answered  Grin.

In reply #28 you wrote: "Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation." and "...since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording."And then, in reply #56 you wrote: "I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear."  

So, here's my confusion--you are Orthodox; you evangelize with (and presumably for) Roman Catholics; you've picked a phrase out of its context from a specifically oriented Roman Catholic website;  you then, because you are evangelizing "some Protestant friends", ask about that Roman Catholic phrase/formulation/notion on an Orthodox website wanting to get, apparently without recourse to your Orthodox priest, an Orthodox opinion about the Roman Catholic phrase your Protestant friends object to.  Are you "evangelizing" them to hopefully become Catholic or to hopefully become Orthodox?  Or, are you just confusing them?  Why did you not bring this to a *Catholic* website if you wanted an explanation of it?  Why do you argue with the Catholics here about the Catholic explanation of it saying, as one who evangelizes Protestants for the Catholics, that you wanted an *Orthodox* explanation of it or to know if it is, indeed, "Orthodox"? 

See the confusion??

To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
Thank you for expressing the same confusion that I was experiencing.
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« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2012, 09:13:46 AM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
You must think yourself a prophet, since you seem certain of I have a different agendum from that already shared..

These are interesting quotes but again I don't see the link with the original question I pose. If my question seems vague, why do you provide an even more opaque response?

Let me refocus: Do you think it is Orthodox to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

How does an Orthodox do this in practice? How do you say the Trisagion prayers or pray the Divine Liturgy through Mary?
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« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2012, 10:01:18 AM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?
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« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2012, 11:39:43 AM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way.  

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on those to whom you pray, and when....?....well ok!!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 11:41:18 AM by elijahmaria » Logged

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« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2012, 04:39:04 PM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
You must think yourself a prophet, since you seem certain of I have a different agendum from that already shared..

These are interesting quotes but again I don't see the link with the original question I pose. If my question seems vague, why do you provide an even more opaque response?

Let me refocus: Do you think it is Orthodox to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

How does an Orthodox do this in practice? How do you say the Trisagion prayers or pray the Divine Liturgy through Mary?

No it is not Orthodox to use Mary as a 'super - intercessor' or the only route to God. However, unless we do not understand each other clearly, you seem to know the answer to your broader question while continuing to press for some Orthodox support for what seems to be your attempt to make these two concepts (Mary as intercessor and direct appeals through prayer to either God the Father or God the Son) mutually exclusive.

Of course the Trisagion prayer is a direct appeal to the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. Of course the Jesus Prayer is a direct appeal to God the Son for mercy and forgiveness.

Where exactly do you take issue with the responses you have received? I, for one, am confused here.
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« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2012, 05:06:00 PM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
You must think yourself a prophet, since you seem certain of I have a different agendum from that already shared..

These are interesting quotes but again I don't see the link with the original question I pose. If my question seems vague, why do you provide an even more opaque response?

Let me refocus: Do you think it is Orthodox to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

How does an Orthodox do this in practice? How do you say the Trisagion prayers or pray the Divine Liturgy through Mary?


Where exactly do you take issue with the responses you have received? I, for one, am confused here.

Not just you!

Alice in Wonderland Quotes From the Cheshire Cat:

"You know, we could make her really angry! Shall we try?"

"Oh, no, no!" (Alice)

"Oh, but it's loads of fun!" (Alice in Wonderland movie quote)

“Which road do I take?" (Alice)

"Where do you want to go?"

"I don't know," Alice answered.

"Then, said the cat, it doesn't matter.”

“If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” (Cheshire Cat movie quote, I believe)
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« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2012, 05:20:20 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on who you pray to and when....?....well ok!!
However, I would think that there is a problem when some one is praying exclusively to the saints and never to the Holy Trinity. I think such a person would be missing the entire point of the faith. That being said, I don't think that there is any problem whatsoever with a person who asks for the Theotokos to join him in every prayer he makes. In fact, I think that it may be a very good thing to conclude each prayer to God with a petition to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.
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« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2012, 05:21:19 PM »

Clemente,

If you (or your Protestant friends whom you are helping the Roman Catholics "evangelize"  Grin) are having any issues concerning the place of the Theotokos in your Orthodox faith, you may want to read the article "The Veneration of the Virgin Mary in the Orthodox Church" by Archbp. Dmitri of Dallas and the South.  You can find it here: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/dmitri_veneration_mary.htm

There is a wealth of other material "out there" that also may help you with this.  If that, indeed, is an issue.
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« Reply #105 on: February 15, 2012, 05:24:46 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on who you pray to and when....?....well ok!!
However, I would think that there is a problem when some one is praying exclusively to the saints and never to the Holy Trinity. I think such a person would be missing the entire point of the faith. That being said, I don't think that there is any problem whatsoever with a person who asks for the Theotokos to join him in every prayer he makes. In fact, I think that it may be a very good thing to conclude each prayer to God with a petition to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.

Indeed!

When I pray the Rosary, at the conclusion of every "Our Father" I pray "Through the prayers of thy most pure Mother, have mercy on us and save us."
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« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way.  

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.
I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.
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« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2012, 07:19:13 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?
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« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2012, 12:39:43 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

It is *precisely* through Mary and the saints that many people do come to know God and come to the Church!  I think it was Catherine de Hueck Doherty who said something to the effect of "Mary is the doorway to Christ" and through this doorway, i.e. Mary, we pass to get to Him.  I know this was very true for me personally.  While never denying (although sometimes highly doubting) the existence of God, it took many years and eventually a providential personal encounter with Mary to bring me to Christ and the Catholic Church.  I owe my conversion to her and her direct intercession.

So, even though I and others may sometimes pray "exclusively to Mary....", I know that it is God Who hears them and acts on them, or not, as the case may be.
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« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2012, 01:07:47 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

Yes.  That kind of extreme singularity is rarely a permanent fixture of a person's spiritual life.  It certainly is off-set the more deeply one becomes involved in the liturgical life of the Church.

But to have a particular devotion to the Mother of God is not an oddity and is never meant to substitute for liturgy or immersion in the liturgical cycle and lives of the saints.  In fact, most of the people that I know who have a particular Marian devotion are quite well attuned to the liturgical year and the lives of the saints.

It tends to be those who have a very very simple faith, an untrained faith, or a kind of lassitude in faith who go to some sort of extreme in Marian devotions.  They tend to be overly dependent on the externals of any devotion, and need to be around others like themselves for affirmation.  People who have books shelves full of texts that are marginally new age in their talk about prayer and the spiritual life.  People who need every possible rosary in their house, statues galore arranged by price tag, and images on every bare wall space.

But...these are still souls on the journey so there's no good in condemning their place on the way!!

M.
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« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2012, 03:11:07 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

Yes.  That kind of extreme singularity is rarely a permanent fixture of a person's spiritual life.  It certainly is off-set the more deeply one becomes involved in the liturgical life of the Church.

But to have a particular devotion to the Mother of God is not an oddity and is never meant to substitute for liturgy or immersion in the liturgical cycle and lives of the saints.  In fact, most of the people that I know who have a particular Marian devotion are quite well attuned to the liturgical year and the lives of the saints.

It tends to be those who have a very very simple faith, an untrained faith, or a kind of lassitude in faith who go to some sort of extreme in Marian devotions.  They tend to be overly dependent on the externals of any devotion, and need to be around others like themselves for affirmation.  People who have books shelves full of texts that are marginally new age in their talk about prayer and the spiritual life.  People who need every possible rosary in their house, statues galore arranged by price tag, and images on every bare wall space.

But...these are still souls on the journey so there's no good in condemning their place on the way!!

M.

And there can likewise be a healthy Orthodox devotion to Mary. Frankly, it has been my privilege to personally know and respect more than a few Orthodox priests and at least one wonderful Bishop who were devoted to Mary, the Theotokas as their intercessor of choice. But it is not to the exclusion of her only Beloved Son. Just as the Jesus prayer is profound in its simplicity, to those men, the supplication 'O Maria, Mati Boze, molisja za nas - O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us', was likewise profound and an important part of making them who they were.
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« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2012, 05:31:30 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

Yes.  That kind of extreme singularity is rarely a permanent fixture of a person's spiritual life.  It certainly is off-set the more deeply one becomes involved in the liturgical life of the Church.

But to have a particular devotion to the Mother of God is not an oddity and is never meant to substitute for liturgy or immersion in the liturgical cycle and lives of the saints.  In fact, most of the people that I know who have a particular Marian devotion are quite well attuned to the liturgical year and the lives of the saints.

It tends to be those who have a very very simple faith, an untrained faith, or a kind of lassitude in faith who go to some sort of extreme in Marian devotions.  They tend to be overly dependent on the externals of any devotion, and need to be around others like themselves for affirmation.  People who have books shelves full of texts that are marginally new age in their talk about prayer and the spiritual life.  People who need every possible rosary in their house, statues galore arranged by price tag, and images on every bare wall space.

But...these are still souls on the journey so there's no good in condemning their place on the way!!

M.

And there can likewise be a healthy Orthodox devotion to Mary. Frankly, it has been my privilege to personally know and respect more than a few Orthodox priests and at least one wonderful Bishop who were devoted to Mary, the Theotokas as their intercessor of choice. But it is not to the exclusion of her only Beloved Son. Just as the Jesus prayer is profound in its simplicity, to those men, the supplication 'O Maria, Mati Boze, molisja za nas - O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us', was likewise profound and an important part of making them who they were.
Thank you very much for your insights. God bless.
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« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2012, 05:36:20 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on who you pray to and when....?....well ok!!
However, I would think that there is a problem when some one is praying exclusively to the saints and never to the Holy Trinity. I think such a person would be missing the entire point of the faith. That being said, I don't think that there is any problem whatsoever with a person who asks for the Theotokos to join him in every prayer he makes. In fact, I think that it may be a very good thing to conclude each prayer to God with a petition to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.
This sounds quite balanced and reasonable. Thank you.
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« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2012, 10:32:17 PM »

Does anyone know a saying that goes something like "Whenever you say a Hail Mary, there's an automatic Glory Be"? It's been a while since I've heard it, so I may have mixed up the wording a little bit.
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« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2012, 02:11:44 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
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« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2012, 04:05:38 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.

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« Reply #116 on: February 20, 2012, 08:58:46 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
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« Reply #117 on: February 20, 2012, 11:00:42 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
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« Reply #118 on: February 20, 2012, 11:03:53 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

+1
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« Reply #119 on: February 20, 2012, 11:19:20 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.
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« Reply #120 on: February 20, 2012, 11:26:01 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
This question has been addressed in a number of previous threads. See, for example,
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38438.0.html
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« Reply #121 on: February 20, 2012, 11:35:11 AM »

An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

It isn't very clear to me what either of you are arguing regarding the relationship between "To Jesus, through Mary" and "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
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« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

Not misleading at all.  If you go back and read the explanations offered on this thread of "To Jesus, through Mary", and allow the utter simplicity of it to penetrate your heart you will, hopefully, realize that the two phrases are very similar indeed.  Try to get past the website you found that phrase on; try to get past the very specific context in which that phrase was used; try to get past preconceived notions of what is "Orthodox" and what is "Catholic" (they are often, not always, one and the same thing or at least very similar, worded differently to reflect the cultural context out of which they arose);  it is all about Mary interceding for us.  So what if "no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary""?  It's much more simple and less complicated than that, *and*, for those who so wish, can also include that.

Besides, even your erstwhile Orthodox brother, podkarpatska, endorsed my thought in his post above.

As for the question being addressed elsewhere, again, so what?  It was appropriate to the context of this thread, having been asked very early on in it.
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« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2012, 11:38:47 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
This question has been addressed in a number of previous threads. See, for example,
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38438.0.html

Alright, I'll take a look.

I see one interesting point in the first few posts (which is as far as I have gotten so far):

Romans 11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Ask them if St Paul saves people. Cool
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« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2012, 11:43:04 AM »

An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

It isn't very clear to me what either of you are arguing regarding the relationship between "To Jesus, through Mary" and "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

In a nutshell--that they represent, basically, the same notion.
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« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2012, 11:45:10 AM »

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

If I remember correctly, when "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" was originally brought up on this thread, it was being used to argue that "To Jesus, through Mary" is orthodox.

Is "To Jesus, through Mary" now being used to argue that "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is orthodox?
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« Reply #126 on: February 20, 2012, 11:46:18 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.
There's a big difference between asking the saints or the Theotokos to pray for our salvation and asking them to "save us."
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« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2012, 11:51:50 AM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
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« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....

Hell on earth  Shocked  Grin.
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« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2012, 11:55:31 AM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory
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« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2012, 12:03:19 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

Then I'm afraid all Orthodox must leave, as they don't believe there is a purgatory  Grin laugh angel!

On the other hand, if it *is* purgatory, there is hope for all of us Catholics here  Grin Grin Grin!
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« Reply #131 on: February 20, 2012, 12:04:37 PM »

But none of us are really being forced to be here. (Or are we? :sinister laugh:)
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« Reply #132 on: February 20, 2012, 12:47:44 PM »

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

If I remember correctly, when "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" was originally brought up on this thread, it was being used to argue that "To Jesus, through Mary" is orthodox.

Is "To Jesus, through Mary" now being used to argue that "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is orthodox?

Just my opinion:

1.  "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"--orthodox and Orthodox.

2.  "To Jesus, through Mary"--orthodox and Catholic

Both 1 and 2 comprise a distinction without a huge difference (if any), although depending on how widely or narrowly one interprets them there could certainly be the perception of a difference.

Does that make sense?

If I'm wrong, I hope someone with greater breadth and depth of understanding and theological knowledge of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism will set me straight.
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« Reply #133 on: February 20, 2012, 12:58:34 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

Then I'm afraid all Orthodox must leave, as they don't believe there is a purgatory  Grin laugh angel!

On the other hand, if it *is* purgatory, there is hope for all of us Catholics here  Grin Grin Grin!

Toll Houses, anyone?
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« Reply #134 on: February 20, 2012, 12:59:22 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

I was thinking more along the lines of Dante....
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