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Author Topic: "To Jesus, through Mary"  (Read 4511 times) Average Rating: 0
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J Michael
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« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.

No one said they were.
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2012, 01:45:07 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.

No one said they were.

If so not even many of our prayers are to Jesus through Mary.
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2012, 01:46:14 PM »

And no , i don`t think we have this formula.
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« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2012, 01:50:06 PM »

Sure, I have quibbles with this:
This is the first 2 paragraphs from the page you linked: "Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son."


But is it really a far stone's throw from routinely praying this?

Quote
Ikos 12
Lauding Thy mercies and wonders, O Theotokos, we all praise Thee as our steadfast mediatress, and we bow down with compunction before Thee that prayest for us, and we implore: lift up Thy hands to Thy Son, that always in this life and after our death His mercy may continually be upon us that cry out to Thee:
Rejoice, our unashamed hope in life and after our repose!
Rejoice, Thou that dost grant a peaceful end of this life to them that trust in Thee!
Rejoice, our hope and defense on the day of judgment!
Rejoice, supplication of the just Judge!
Rejoice, deliverance from everlasting Gehenna!
Rejoice, hope of eternal salvation!
Rejoice, key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, portal of Paradise!
Rejoice, bridge leading to the heavens!
Rejoice, refuge and good intercessor for all repentant sinners!
Rejoice, joy of the angels!
Rejoice, glory and consolation of all the righteous!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!
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« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2012, 02:09:59 PM »

Sure, I have quibbles with this:
This is the first 2 paragraphs from the page you linked: "Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son."


But is it really a far stone's throw from routinely praying this?

Quote
Ikos 12
Lauding Thy mercies and wonders, O Theotokos, we all praise Thee as our steadfast mediatress, and we bow down with compunction before Thee that prayest for us, and we implore: lift up Thy hands to Thy Son, that always in this life and after our death His mercy may continually be upon us that cry out to Thee:
Rejoice, our unashamed hope in life and after our repose!
Rejoice, Thou that dost grant a peaceful end of this life to them that trust in Thee!
Rejoice, our hope and defense on the day of judgment!
Rejoice, supplication of the just Judge!
Rejoice, deliverance from everlasting Gehenna!
Rejoice, hope of eternal salvation!
Rejoice, key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, portal of Paradise!
Rejoice, bridge leading to the heavens!
Rejoice, refuge and good intercessor for all repentant sinners!
Rejoice, joy of the angels!
Rejoice, glory and consolation of all the righteous!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!

I've always loved that.

Seems we're back to nuances of language and that good ol' distinction without a difference.

And, ya gotta luv that phrase in the first line: "we all praise Thee as our steadfast mediatress"  angel

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« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2012, 02:21:52 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)
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« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2012, 03:40:31 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.
Neither are ours.
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« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2012, 05:24:13 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

Right. So a heterodox poster is accusing an Orthodox poster of being....heterodox.

Must you rely on the poisoning the well fallacy to butress your arguments?
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« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2012, 05:47:49 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".
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J Michael
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« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2012, 06:13:28 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 06:17:11 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2012, 06:22:57 PM »

By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


I am very interested in the answer to this question.

Also I don't get the OPs exuberant angst over a phrase TAKE TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT that is particular to Father Louis De Montfort in his book "True Devotion to Mary"... I just don't see where he has the gravitas to make the statements he's asserting about this particular phrase that he clearly knows nothing about and shows little inclination to discover on his own...eh?    Cheesy

I think the whole thread is off...something.
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« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2012, 06:42:41 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.

I suspect now I posted my OP in the wrong forum. I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear.



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« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.

I suspect now I posted my OP in the wrong forum. I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear.





I'm curious--why didn't you just ask your priest about it?  That would have saved you all this time and possible aggravation  Wink.

In any event, you *did* ask it here, and you were answered fairly comprehensively.  It seems, though, that you didn't like the answer(s) provided, both by Catholic *and* Orthodox posters.

As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox".
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« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2012, 03:31:02 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.

I suspect now I posted my OP in the wrong forum. I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear.





I'm curious--why didn't you just ask your priest about it?  That would have saved you all this time and possible aggravation  Wink.

In any event, you *did* ask it here, and you were answered fairly comprehensively.  It seems, though, that you didn't like the answer(s) provided, both by Catholic *and* Orthodox posters.

As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox".

It probably is Orthodox if you scratch the surface of black and white, and check out some of the language of the holy fathers as they were known to Father Louis de Montfort...but who has time for all that?  They language may not be precise but the idea...well.... Lips Sealed

Good idea for him to go to his priest...takes less time.
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« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2012, 06:54:36 PM »

Quote
As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox"

Yes, it has become evident from this thread that this particular Roman Catholic formulation "to Jesus, through Mary" is not Orthodox. That is a big relief for me, since I don't see it in Scripture, in the Fathers, in our liturgies or in our icons.

As I have related, I have more at stake than most Orthodox in seeking union with Rome. Yet I don't want union through simply absorbing Roman Catholic theology and praxis, including Marian hypertrophy. I spend a lot of time with Roman Catholics and I think many of them have absolutely no limits in their Marian devotion. My sister-in-law told me frankly that she has no relationship with Jesus but she does with the Virgin. I nearly started to cry. I know that is not authentic Roman Catholicism and that even the Bishop of Rome would reject that. But unfortunately, a lot of RC laity have some sloppy ideas regarding the Theotokos, that we Orthodox need to reject for the sake of union. As Metr. Jonah said to the ACNA:

Quote
"We share the hope of full ecumenical relationship and reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. However, I believe that we are of one mind, the Anglicans and the Orthodox, in that we reject the papal ecclesiology and the theological distortions of papal infallibility, and some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary. We love the Most Pure Mother of God, but I think we have to remember what is right and decent and in order. And it’s only by, only by the repeal of such doctrines that there is going to be any possibility of reconciliation of the Roman Church with the Orthodox Church… some don’t like that."

And so I would just pray this: Holy Theotokos, Wherefore thou art blessed by all generations, the Favourite of God, more radiant than the Cherubim, and more honourable than the Seraphim. Thy prayers preserve us unto the end uncondemned; for saved by thy help and protection, we send up glory, praise, thanksgiving and worship for all, to the One God in Trinity and Creator of all, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2012, 11:20:05 PM »

Quote
As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox"
Yes, it has become evident from this thread that this particular Roman Catholic formulation "to Jesus, through Mary" is not Orthodox. That is a big relief for me, since I don't see it in Scripture, in the Fathers, in our liturgies or in our icons.
Like so many things, it is heterodox if it is misunderstood. I have a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, but I have never felt that I must go through her to get to Christ. I see it more as power in numbers. I could either pray to Christ on my own, or I could pray to Christ on my own and ask the Blessed Virgin Mary and the entire communion of Saints to pray for me as well. This, I believe, is fully orthodox and is quite good to do. There is power in prayer, and there is power in numbers in terms of prayer. Why else would people ask others to pray for them?

As I have related, I have more at stake than most Orthodox in seeking union with Rome. Yet I don't want union through simply absorbing Roman Catholic theology and praxis, including Marian hypertrophy. I spend a lot of time with Roman Catholics and I think many of them have absolutely no limits in their Marian devotion. My sister-in-law told me frankly that she has no relationship with Jesus but she does with the Virgin. I nearly started to cry. I know that is not authentic Roman Catholicism and that even the Bishop of Rome would reject that. But unfortunately, a lot of RC laity have some sloppy ideas regarding the Theotokos, that we Orthodox need to reject for the sake of union. As Metr. Jonah said to the
Sounds like your sister-in-law does not have a very good relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary either then. An authentic relationship with her should always lead to a stronger relationship with Christ.

And so I would just pray this: Holy Theotokos, Wherefore thou art blessed by all generations, the Favourite of God, more radiant than the Cherubim, and more honourable than the Seraphim. Thy prayers preserve us unto the end uncondemned; for saved by thy help and protection, we send up glory, praise, thanksgiving and worship for all, to the One God in Trinity and Creator of all, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Amen. Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2012, 02:28:45 PM »

Quote
As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox"

Yes, it has become evident from this thread that this particular Roman Catholic formulation "to Jesus, through Mary" is not Orthodox. That is a big relief for me, since I don't see it in Scripture, in the Fathers, in our liturgies or in our icons.


You must be *extremely* well-versed in and familiar with "the Fathers" since you don't see it or something even remotely similar to it in their writings.  I'm impressed!

As Mary said, though, it probably is, indeed, Orthodox, but in different wording.  Just because you don't find that particular formulation or phrase doesn't mean it ain't there in different phraseology.  But it seems you don't really want to accept that possibility.  Oh well.....

You never did answer the question about why you didn't ask this of your priest, btw.  Oh well.....
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« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2012, 02:49:54 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.
Catholics are not required to direct all of our prayers t Jesus, through Mary. But personally, why would anyone not want to ask the Theotokos to join us in all of our prayers?
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« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2012, 03:02:52 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel
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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2012, 03:45:24 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel

For a selection of turgid and florid ideas and language concerning the Mother of God in Orthodoxy please see the references that follow.  Sometimes it is best to withhold judgment till we have a better idea of what we are talking about, and how to talk about it:

1.  Just in case anyone reading this thread thinks that a "cult" is always a BAD thing:

The Cult of the Mother of God in Byzantium

http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Birmingham-Byzantine-Ottoman-Studies/dp/0754662667/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-3


2.  and for those wanting a sense of the patristic consensus:

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God

http://www.amazon.com/Wider-Than-Heaven-Eighth-century-Homilies/dp/0881413267/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-1

On the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-God-Jacob-Serug/dp/0881411841/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-4

3. then a later approach that echoes these earlier homilies see

Mary the Mother of God: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas

http://www.amazon.com/Mary-Mother-God-Sermons-Gregory/dp/0977498301/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-2





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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2012, 06:20:07 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel
As you will see from this thread, I have never questioned the communion of the saints or the efficacy of seeking the intercession of the Theotokos. In fact, I also cite that verse above.

What I do question is the misleading ideas that eminate from the statement "to Jesus, through Mary", as evidenced by the Roman Catholic website I noted. Even the Roman Catholic posters here admit that prayer subsists in more than just asking the Theotokos to intercede for us. In Orthodoxy, we praise God, we confess to Him, we worship Him in prayer, all directly to Him. So I infer that the phrase in question could only be correct and Orthodox if we said "to Jesus, sometimes through Mary".

I think we have established with some certainty in this thread that this phrase is not properly Orthodox and in fact does not describe the totality of the Orthodox prayer life.

I believe the danger of using such misleading phrases is that they lead to Marian hypertrophy and may in fact alienate us from God, as was the case for my RC sister-in-law.

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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2012, 06:22:36 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel

For a selection of turgid and florid ideas and language concerning the Mother of God in Orthodoxy please see the references that follow.  Sometimes it is best to withhold judgment till we have a better idea of what we are talking about, and how to talk about it:

1.  Just in case anyone reading this thread thinks that a "cult" is always a BAD thing:

The Cult of the Mother of God in Byzantium

http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Birmingham-Byzantine-Ottoman-Studies/dp/0754662667/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-3


2.  and for those wanting a sense of the patristic consensus:

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God

http://www.amazon.com/Wider-Than-Heaven-Eighth-century-Homilies/dp/0881413267/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-1

On the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-God-Jacob-Serug/dp/0881411841/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-4

3. then a later approach that echoes these earlier homilies see

Mary the Mother of God: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas

http://www.amazon.com/Mary-Mother-God-Sermons-Gregory/dp/0977498301/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-2






You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.
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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2012, 07:19:00 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context. 

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.
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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2012, 08:01:33 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context. 

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2012, 08:54:11 PM »

Sometimes I wonder if this whole section of the forum is just meant to troll Catholics.
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« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2012, 09:08:12 PM »

This thread reminded me of a story from a pretty recent convert to the Catholic Church, who was raised in a fundamentalist home. Her fundamentalist background gave her a pretty skewed conception of God, making him, in her mind, unapproachable:

Quote from: Elizabeth Esther
Additionally, the God of my childhood was a roaring, Almighty, vengeful God. I was terrified of Him. I often imagined him as a stern-faced judge just waiting to strike me down should I make a mistake.

When my childhood church imploded because of massive moral failure on the part of the male leadership, the engine of my belief just started shutting down involuntarily. 

I didn't know how to talk to God anymore. My twisted image of God prevented me from being able to come back to Him.

To my dismay, I discovered that all paths back to God were blocked.

Go to her blog and read Part 1 and Part 2 to see how she found her way back to Jesus... through Mary. 

Clemente, I don't know your sister in law and so I don't know her experiences, but if she's reaching out to Mary, how do you know Mary isn't gently leading her to her Son? Who are we to determine?

In the above blog posts, we have an example of someone going "to Jesus, through Mary".  Mary is doing for this woman what all of the saints do - point the way to Christ. I admit that I've only been exploring Orthodoxy for one year, but this would fit in with both Catholic and Orthodox teaching, right?
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2012, 11:13:52 AM »

Sometimes I wonder if this whole section of the forum is just meant to troll Catholics.

From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles."  I think that, given human nature, and the often-times inflammatory nature of religious discussion in general, the "trolling" of Catholics on this section may be an unintended consequence.  So, if the stated goal is to propagate one religious viewpoint, this will by definition come at the "expense" of others.  Unfortunately, sometimes that happens in a messy manner.
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2012, 11:19:43 AM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."
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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2012, 11:44:41 AM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2012, 12:42:54 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2012, 12:54:19 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
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You are fun and funny, PP!!
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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2012, 12:59:27 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
Roll Eyes

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You are fun and funny, PP!!

Just the means he finds necessary to propagate the Orthodox Christian faith  Grin Grin.  At least he has a good sense of humor  Wink!
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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2012, 02:07:04 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
Roll Eyes

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You are fun and funny, PP!!

Just the means he finds necessary to propagate the Orthodox Christian faith  Grin Grin.  At least he has a good sense of humor  Wink!
Love you guys too Smiley


PP
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2012, 02:16:04 PM »


Love you guys too Smiley


PP

You know I wasn't entirely serious, but it does seem that way on occasion, from this side of the fence.

And I like your Avatar.

M.
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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2012, 05:58:21 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context. 

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.
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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2012, 06:12:33 PM »

I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

I had the same hangup over the Paraklesis to the Theotokos, in which we pray to Mary, "Have compassion upon us; hasten, for we are lost in a throng of transgressions; do not turn your servants away with empty hands, for you alone are our only hope." But then I took my concerns to a priest, and he explained its proper meaning. The same perspective should be found here. 
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« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2012, 06:18:02 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context.  

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

Oy vey.  

If you haven't "gotten" it by now from all the above, I'm not up for another ride on the merry-go-round---getting too dizzy from your apparent inability or unwillingness to comprehend.  You want an Orthodox opinion about "to Jesus, through Mary", go ask your Orthodox priest.  There is nothing un-orthodox about it as far as Catholics are concerned.

Stop being hung-up on the precise words or as you call it "the formulation", which you have taken out of context, which have also been explained throughout the thread, and get the simplicity of it all.  It is *not* complicated or difficult.  And if it is not, technically speaking, "Orthodox", well....so what?  Then why do you bother with it at all???
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 06:18:42 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context.  

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

Oy vey.  

If you haven't "gotten" it by now from all the above, I'm not up for another ride on the merry-go-round---getting too dizzy from your apparent inability or unwillingness to comprehend.  You want an Orthodox opinion about "to Jesus, through Mary", go ask your Orthodox priest.  There is nothing un-orthodox about it as far as Catholics are concerned.

Stop being hung-up on the precise words or as you call it "the formulation", which you have taken out of context, which have also been explained throughout the thread, and get the simplicity of it all.  It is *not* complicated or difficult.  And if it is not, technically speaking, "Orthodox", well....so what?  Then why do you bother with it at all???
Great, I agree. This particular hypertrophic formulation is not Orthodox; there is no need for Orthodox here to try to square propositions "A" and "not A".

By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!
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« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2012, 07:05:12 PM »


Great, I agree. This particular hypertrophic formulation is not Orthodox; there is no need for Orthodox here to try to square propositions "A" and "not A".

By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!

When you say it is not Orthodox are you speaking of meaning or the formula on its face?
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« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2012, 10:06:46 PM »

Clemente, to be honest, I never heard the phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" until I read this thread. But hearing that it was a Catholic formulation, I looked at it in a way that made sense in a Catholic context, which many others in this thread have also done. In the same way, when I heard the Paraklesis refer to the Theotokos as "our only hope", I went to an Orthodox priest to make sure that I was looking at it in an Orthodox context.

I know you haven't gotten the variety of Orthodox responses you were hoping for, but podkarpatska had many good things to say:

From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

The intention behind the phrase is important. Is the phrase's intention, through your research of mainstream Catholic sites and as described by Catholics on this thread, Orthodox? Because this would be the way your wife would intend to use it.

I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west.

You are east and your wife is west, so like you said before, you have much at stake. But even if it is language you don't use, if the meaning behind it is Orthodox, why would you use it as a source of contention? I just don't want you to misrepresent her beliefs when you dialogue with her.
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« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2012, 11:32:15 PM »

I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here.
Then why did you post it in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section?
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« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2012, 10:43:44 AM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context.  

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

Oy vey.  

If you haven't "gotten" it by now from all the above, I'm not up for another ride on the merry-go-round---getting too dizzy from your apparent inability or unwillingness to comprehend.  You want an Orthodox opinion about "to Jesus, through Mary", go ask your Orthodox priest.  There is nothing un-orthodox about it as far as Catholics are concerned.

Stop being hung-up on the precise words or as you call it "the formulation", which you have taken out of context, which have also been explained throughout the thread, and get the simplicity of it all.  It is *not* complicated or difficult.  And if it is not, technically speaking, "Orthodox", well....so what?  Then why do you bother with it at all???

By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!

I'm happy that your priest ate dinner at your home last night.  Were you there, too  Grin?  Have you actually *asked* him about this simple matter?  (And...it *is* quite simple!)

Having been in the Orthodox Church and returned to the Catholic Church of my baptism, I appreciate that you think I am now becoming very *o*rthodox  laugh!

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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2012, 11:45:15 AM »

Clemente, to be honest, I never heard the phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" until I read this thread. But hearing that it was a Catholic formulation, I looked at it in a way that made sense in a Catholic context, which many others in this thread have also done. In the same way, when I heard the Paraklesis refer to the Theotokos as "our only hope", I went to an Orthodox priest to make sure that I was looking at it in an Orthodox context.

I know you haven't gotten the variety of Orthodox responses you were hoping for, but podkarpatska had many good things to say:

From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

The intention behind the phrase is important. Is the phrase's intention, through your research of mainstream Catholic sites and as described by Catholics on this thread, Orthodox? Because this would be the way your wife would intend to use it.

I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west.

You are east and your wife is west, so like you said before, you have much at stake. But even if it is language you don't use, if the meaning behind it is Orthodox, why would you use it as a source of contention? I just don't want you to misrepresent her beliefs when you dialogue with her.
There is a false ecumenism that seeks reunion with heterodox Christians through glossing over the differences between Orthodoxry and another heterodox church. I this such an approach respects neither Orthodoxy no Roman Catholicism.

As such, I really admire the efforts by Orthodox leaders such as Metr. Jonah and Metr. Kiril to engage with heterodox Christians with a spirit of love and truth. Metr. Jonah has denounced Calvinism and Marian hypertrophy, whilst seeking to build bridges with Anglicans and Roman Catholics.

I think speaking truth with love and not glossing over real theological differences is the model for relations with all other Christians, whether they be wives or other Churches.
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« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2012, 12:05:26 PM »


By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!
I was not aware that telling one to seek pastoral clarification was the exclusive domain of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2012, 12:35:01 PM »


I think speaking truth with love and not glossing over real theological differences is the model for relations with all other Christians, whether they be wives or other Churches.

"Truth" seems to be the operative word and I don't think you have quite got it in this discussion.

What is worse than glossing over real differences is grabbing at distinctions without a difference and calling that the truth.

You haven't met anyone who does that have ya?
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