"To Jesus, through Mary"

[J Michael]

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....

Maybe this is purgatory

Then I'm afraid all Orthodox must leave, as they don't believe there is a purgatory  !

On the other hand, if it *is* purgatory, there is hope for all of us Catholics here  !

Toll Houses, anyone?

At my age, I'm beginning to think more about senior condominiums  .  But...thanks, anyway  .

[elijahmaria]

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

The person who coined the phrase didn't mean what you are saying here either.

So I think it is pretty safe to say that what you are asserting by the phrase and not the phrase itself, is neither Catholic nor Orthodox.

So you are right...Your assertions and presumptions here, having nothing to do with the phrase itself, are wrong.

[Peter J]

To be honest, it's still entirely clear to me what Clemente is saying it means.

[Peter J]

Here's a related question that I'm very curious about: in my personal experience, I have very often heard "to Jesus through Mary", but I have very rarely heard "to Jesus, through the saints" or "to Jesus, through Mary and the saints".

Is this your experience as well?

[J Michael]

Here's a related question that I'm very curious about: in my personal experience, I have very often heard "to Jesus through Mary", but I have very rarely heard "to Jesus, through the saints" or "to Jesus, through Mary and the saints".

Is this your experience as well?

Can't say I've heard either of the latter two expressions, at least not worded specifically that way.

[stanley123]

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.

So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?

[Clemente]

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.

So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...

[J Michael]

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.

So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...

Then substitute, say, St. Basil the Great......

[stanley123]

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"

I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.

So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...

From the Orthodox point of view is there a difference between asking Mary to save us and asking a saint to save us?

[Peter J]

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...

From the Orthodox point of view is there a difference between asking Mary to save us and asking a saint to save us?

I was wondering that too.

[akimori makoto]

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...

From the Orthodox point of view is there a difference between asking Mary to save us and asking a saint to save us?

I was wondering that too.

Someone else might disagree, but I will proffer an answer: no.

Even in theology (let alone ordinary use), the Greek "soson" does not carry the same connotations as the English "save" has come to.

"Yperaghia Theotoke soson imas" / "most holy Theotokos save us" is intoned halfway through "tis panayias, ahrantou ..." / "commemorating our most holy ...":

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Tis panayias, ahrantou, yperevlogimeni, endhoxou dhespinis imon Theotokou ke aeiparthenou Marias, meta panton ton ayion mnimonevsantes eaftous ke allilous ke pasan tin zoin imon Hristo to Theo parathometha.

Commemorating our most holy, pure, most blessed and glorious lady, the God-bearer and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life unto Christ our God.

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The above makes it clear that the Theotokos is pre-eminent amongst the saints who we commemorate and beg for speedy intercession and help, but it is Christ-God to whom we commend ourselves, each other and our whole life.

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