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Author Topic: "To Jesus, through Mary"  (Read 4341 times) Average Rating: 0
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Clemente
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« on: February 09, 2012, 11:45:44 AM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 01:11:34 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.
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J Michael
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 01:36:05 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

Can you give an example?

I know many Catholics, Eastern and Western talk or write about approaching Jesus through His mother, Mary.

I also remember a prayer I learned during my Orthodox days and continue to use even now: "Through the prayers of thy most pure Mother, have mercy on us, O Lord, and save us."  Not really very different, is it?
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 01:37:33 PM »

Are you understanding that they always pray to Jesus through Mary?  If so, then I dont think thats accurate.  While Catholics and Orthodox dont agree on everything regarding Mary, they both still do ask for her prayers of intercession.

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Clemente
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 02:28:13 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:33:35 PM by Clemente » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2012, 02:36:46 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 02:38:19 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves essentially through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayers, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

While Orthodox and Roman Catholics are united, for the most part, in their devotion to the Mother of God and their views on her salvific role are similar, albeit expressed in different terminology which often leads to unfortunate exaggerations based on misunderstanding those differing ways of using language. However, it is true there are those within the Roman Catholic Church, many of whom have carried their beliefs to almost cult like status from our point of  view and who have carried such devotion to what we Orthodox view as the brink of real heresy and to a point where much of the RCC is uncomfortable.

I have attached an interesting FAQ from an American Catholic college on this issue. I certainly don't agree with all it states, but it appears to be fairly factual and provides cited documentation for its assertions. http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/questions/faq/faq21.html
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:39:36 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
J Michael
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 02:41:36 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

I don't think we *need* to go through Mary to get His attention, but it sure doesn't do anyone any harm  Wink.  Jesus will *always* pay attention to His mother.  He'd better, as she's a *Jewish* mother  laugh laugh.  Catholics and Orthodox very frequently ask for her intercession with Him.  That's all it's about, really.

Think about it--God didn't *need* Mary to become incarnate, but He obviously had good reason to or wouldn't have done so.  So...He comes to us *through* Mary; we reciprocate by going to Him through her, too.  Works out nicely, don't ya think  Wink.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 02:59:43 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

I don't think we *need* to go through Mary to get His attention, but it sure doesn't do anyone any harm  Wink.  Jesus will *always* pay attention to His mother.  He'd better, as she's a *Jewish* mother  laugh laugh.  Catholics and Orthodox very frequently ask for her intercession with Him.  That's all it's about, really.

Think about it--God didn't *need* Mary to become incarnate, but He obviously had good reason to or wouldn't have done so.  So...He comes to us *through* Mary; we reciprocate by going to Him through her, too.  Works out nicely, don't ya think  Wink.

Again, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede, since "the prayers of a righteous man avail much". Great. There is good support for this in the Fathers.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary. That doesn't square with my (limited) Orthodox experience. Hence, my question.

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary". I recognise that Roman Catholic theology develops differently from that of Orthodoxy and requires, perhaps, less grounding in the Fathers. But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers.
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 03:03:11 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 03:07:45 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

I don't think we *need* to go through Mary to get His attention, but it sure doesn't do anyone any harm  Wink.  Jesus will *always* pay attention to His mother.  He'd better, as she's a *Jewish* mother  laugh laugh.  Catholics and Orthodox very frequently ask for her intercession with Him.  That's all it's about, really.

Think about it--God didn't *need* Mary to become incarnate, but He obviously had good reason to or wouldn't have done so.  So...He comes to us *through* Mary; we reciprocate by going to Him through her, too.  Works out nicely, don't ya think  Wink.

Again, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede, since "the prayers of a righteous man avail much". Great. There is good support for this in the Fathers.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary. That doesn't square with my (limited) Orthodox experience. Hence, my question.

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary". I recognise that Roman Catholic theology develops differently from that of Orthodoxy and requires, perhaps, less grounding in the Fathers. But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers.

Christ Himself was "channeled" to us through the Theotokos.  I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.  The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 03:10:15 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.

I see that, but if "prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass", I don't understand why you think it is so interesting that this phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" doesn't appear in the mass.
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J Michael
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 03:16:10 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.

I see that, but if "prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass", I don't understand why you think it is so interesting that this phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" doesn't appear in the mass.

Where did I say that "this phrase 'to Jesus, through Mary' doesn't appear in the mass"?  It doesn't (to the best of my recollection  Wink), but I did *not* say that it was interesting that it doesn't.  Why should it?

Are there not Orthodox prayers and phrases of prayers that do not appear in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Nothing particularly strange or interesting about that.  Or is there? 
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 03:21:10 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 03:22:29 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 03:22:55 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.

I see that, but if "prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass", I don't understand why you think it is so interesting that this phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" doesn't appear in the mass.

Where did I say that "this phrase 'to Jesus, through Mary' doesn't appear in the mass"?  It doesn't (to the best of my recollection  Wink), but I did *not* say that it was interesting that it doesn't. 
Sorry, you are right, that was another poster.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 03:30:19 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.

Maybe it's a question of sloppy understanding.  There really is nothing odd about it.  If you think awhile about the ramifications of Christ coming to us **through** the Theotokos, it all makes sense.  He was dependent upon her for his flesh, for life in her womb, for his birth, for nursing and bathing Him as a baby, raising and educating Him as a child.  He was dependent upon her for all things for a goodly portion of His life on earth.  That is to say, without her ***everything*** would have been totally different and we, for our salvation, as Papist points out above, depend on her, although it is Christ Himself who saves us.  Understand?
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 03:32:24 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 03:39:33 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 03:41:22 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?

We, too, praise God.  We, too, thank Him, worship Him.  We do all of that during the Holy Mass, and privately. We confess our sins to Him via the priest in the confessional.

We are dependent upon her for all things because, as I tried to explain above, without her, we wouldn't have Him.  I know that's grossly over-simplifying it, but there it is.  We do *not*, however, offer all our prayers to God through her, confess to or through her, or praise God through her.  And the phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" does not mean or imply or suggest that at all.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 03:41:57 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 03:43:25 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?

I see that your Orthodox jurisdiction is "Europe".  I don't mean to be insulting at all, but is English your first language?  You certainly write it well enough, but I wonder if what you're experiencing is primarily a linguistic issue.
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 03:43:35 PM »

Wow. as I am trying to follow this back and forth, i can't help but wonder how a non-Christian, non-Theistic theologian, like a Bhuddist for example, could make heads or tails out of this thread.

As I said in my first post here "While Orthodox and Roman Catholics are united, for the most part, in their devotion to the Mother of God and their views on her salvific role are similar, albeit expressed in different terminology which often leads to unfortunate exaggerations based on misunderstanding those differing ways of using language."

This is a result of the human condition going back to man's vanity and the Tower of  Babel.

In Orthodoxy, there is a prescribed special hymn to the Birthgiver of God established for each Liturgical service - the Theotokia or Bohorodicen. Much allegorical terminology is set out in those prayers, most of which can be traced to the Patristric era of the Church undivided as a response to the Nestorian challenge of the fifth century. A link to wikipedia speaks to this in broad terms.

"Theotokion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokion

As we would say in the courts of law, this argument is bordering on a 'distinction without a difference.'
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 03:44:08 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Are you changing the topic of the thread, now?
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 03:44:59 PM »

Wow. as I am trying to follow this back and forth, i can't help but wonder how a non-Christian, non-Theistic theologian, like a Bhuddist for example, could make heads or tails out of this thread.

As I said in my first post here "While Orthodox and Roman Catholics are united, for the most part, in their devotion to the Mother of God and their views on her salvific role are similar, albeit expressed in different terminology which often leads to unfortunate exaggerations based on misunderstanding those differing ways of using language."

This is a result of the human condition going back to man's vanity and the Tower of  Babel.

In Orthodoxy, there is a prescribed special hymn to the Birthgiver of God established for each Liturgical service - the Theotokia or Bohorodicen. Much allegorical terminology is set out in those prayers, most of which can be traced to the Patristric era of the Church undivided as a response to the Nestorian challenge of the fifth century. A link to wikipedia speaks to this in broad terms.

"Theotokion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokion

As we would say in the courts of law, this argument is bordering on a 'distinction without a difference.'

Indeed!!  Well put, counselor!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 03:45:52 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 03:46:51 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 04:06:37 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink


Yes, it's much easier to highlight our differences and throw those smoke bombs than to try to understand each other and resolve, where possible, those differences.
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 04:21:54 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink


Yes, it's much easier to highlight our differences and throw those smoke bombs than to try to understand each other and resolve, where possible, those differences.
As an Orthodox I will pose a question to think about to my fellow Orthodox. One of the great examples used to ridicule western scholasticism from the Middle Ages was the old story about Roman monks striving to determine the distinctions between angelic substance and essence by trying to ascertain just how many angels could be found on the tip of a pin. To the Orthodox mind such an exercise is either incomprehensible and foolish or downright dangerous. Yet, when our Roman Catholic brothers ask us a question using a common misunderstanding of Orthodox teaching on a subject where we share a common approach, rather than try to frame an answer based upon a broader, more 'eastern' analysis in which to frame the answer, we all too often fall into the trap of trying quantify differences and see how many of them we can use to confuse an otherwise simple discussion.

Are you so insecure in your understanding of our Faith that it is painful to acknowledge those things upon which we agree or are not in substantive disagreement?

The lawyers I know who espouse a 'take no prisoners' approach to conflict resolution so as not to appear weak are usually not successful in life or well respected by their colleagues.

All too often we confuse arguing with argument.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 04:24:17 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 04:59:31 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.

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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 05:03:34 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
To a certain degree, I think that this is all just a matter of playing word games.

That being said, yes, in a certain sense I am dependent on Mary in all things. It was through Mary that God became man. It was through her that Jesus assumed a human nature, by which he redeemed us. If there is no Mary, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no redemption, salvation, theosis, sacraments, church, priesthood, tradition, etc. etc. etc. So, yes, my entire spiritual life is dependent on Mary. Mary is not my savior, but she is the door through which salvation entered to the world and was made available to man.
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2012, 05:19:39 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.


 

Wow, an Orthodox evangelizing for Catholics?!?!  I wouldn't say that too loudly around *here*  Shocked Grin.

Papist explained it very well above--better than my feeble attempts, which you haven't addressed yet. 

When you introduced into this discussion the filioque, you were, indeed, changing the topic of the thread.  The filioque has been discussed on this board ad nauseum.  Just do a search for the word and I'm sure you'll have far more reading material than you ever bargained for.  I will not address it here, because it really isn't relevant to the title of this thread.  If you want to start (another  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes) new thread on the filioque, I guess no one's stopping you.

The answer to the question you posed is simple.  And it *has* been answered.  I'm not sure what still is unclear about it.

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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2012, 05:31:56 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

If you are trying to draw a significant distinction between traditional Roman Catholic Mariology and that of the Orthodox you are probably not going to convince any Protestant that any such a distinction upon which we expend much discussion between ourselves means anything from their point of view. (Not, of course, with those  RC's who push for dogmatizing 'Co-Redemptrix' but they have no sway with Pope Benedict.) Our disagreements over, say the Immaculate Conception, seen arcane to most Protestants in my own experience.

Sorry if I can't be of more help to you now that I understand what you are searching for.
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2012, 05:48:44 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.

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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2012, 06:00:41 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.



This is the first 2 paragraphs from the page you linked: "Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son."


It's referring, I believe, to a formal act of consecration to the Theotokos, something which many Catholics do in a variety of contexts, but something which probably (this is a guess, here) *most* Catholics don't do.

I think the first paragraph, the quote from Pope Pius XII, explains it pretty well.  You may want to research further the whole phenomenon of "Consecration to Mary" by looking up St. Louis de Montfort, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Catherine de Hueck Doherty, for example.

Think, too, about what the actual words "consecrate" and "consecration" mean--to set apart, to associate with the sacred, etc., and maybe it will become clearer for you.  Here's a link: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=10&gs_id=bv&xhr=t&q=consecrate&pq=why+consecrate+to+mary&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=consecrate&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6134ab16fe89b6fc&biw=1024&bih=622

It is something that I have not seen in Orthodoxy so it may be un-Orthodox, but there is nothing un-orthodox about it.

I'm sure your wife, being part of Opus Dei, is more than familiar with the whole concept of consecration.
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2012, 06:15:37 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
To a certain degree, I think that this is all just a matter of playing word games.

That being said, yes, in a certain sense I am dependent on Mary in all things. It was through Mary that God became man. It was through her that Jesus assumed a human nature, by which he redeemed us. If there is no Mary, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no redemption, salvation, theosis, sacraments, church, priesthood, tradition, etc. etc. etc. So, yes, my entire spiritual life is dependent on Mary. Mary is not my savior, but she is the door through which salvation entered to the world and was made available to man.
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 06:21:10 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.


 

Wow, an Orthodox evangelizing for Catholics?!?!  I wouldn't say that too loudly around *here*  Shocked Grin

I even pray with them (Orthodox prayers, directly to God, I might add). Don't tell anyone or my days here could be numbered...
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2012, 06:24:57 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
To a certain degree, I think that this is all just a matter of playing word games.

That being said, yes, in a certain sense I am dependent on Mary in all things. It was through Mary that God became man. It was through her that Jesus assumed a human nature, by which he redeemed us. If there is no Mary, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no redemption, salvation, theosis, sacraments, church, priesthood, tradition, etc. etc. etc. So, yes, my entire spiritual life is dependent on Mary. Mary is not my savior, but she is the door through which salvation entered to the world and was made available to man.
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.

What does Papist's explanation obfuscate?  

When you take the phrase "dependent on Mary in all things" out of it's context, of course it's unclear.  If you put it back into context and delve for the meaning (see my post above), and look for understanding with an open mind, things do become clearer.  Sloppy understanding leads to confusion  Grin.

Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.


 

Wow, an Orthodox evangelizing for Catholics?!?!  I wouldn't say that too loudly around *here*  Shocked Grin

I even pray with them (Orthodox prayers, directly to God, I might add). Don't tell anyone or my days here could be numbered...

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2012, 06:52:25 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?

Sorry, you've lost me  Sad---which adage would that be?

I honestly do not have enough familiarity with "the Fathers" to know whether the notion you speak of is mentioned in their writings or not.  What I do "know", though, (because I've been told it by Orthodox priests and others) is that not everything in "the Fathers" is  believed everywhere.  That leads me to surmise, perhaps incorrectly I'm willing to admit, that there may be things that are universally believed that "the Fathers" may not have written about.  

Like I said, too, it may not be an "Orthodox" notion, but that doesn't make it un-orthodox---at least as far as Catholics are concerned.

As podkarpatska pointed out much more eloquently than I, we may just be having a discussion about linguistic differences and that it is actually, as he put it, a "distinction without a difference".
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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2012, 12:30:34 PM »

I still do not get your point. You can pull lines out of context from Orthodox sources just as easily. Out of context, what do these sentences from St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy imply? Without context, or without a more complete text of the liturgy and without at least some foundational knowledge of Orthodox teaching you could be 'taken' apart by some Protestant polemecists.


From the First Antiphon:

Through the prayers of the (Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God), O Saviour, save us.

(I inserted the alternates of "Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God" as alternate translations interchange them, but they all refer to St. Mary, the Ever-Virgin, Birthgiver of God.)

From the Second Antiphon:

Through the prayers of Your Saints, O Saviour, save us!


But you went beyond your first, initially over-broad question to state:

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary"  and "But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers."


No one who is Orthodox would defend the excess of Marian devotion found on some of the web's more notorious Rosary or Co-redemtrix pages.However, there are certainly numerous pious Orthodox Christians who have a particularly keen reverence and love for the Theotokas and there are many pious Orthodox who have special reverence for other Saints. What is the problem?

Not that I have any particular expertise with respect to the 'Magesterium' of the Church of Rome, but I do not think that the above statement accurately reflects the teachings of the Roman Church on Mary.

Would one of our more learned Catholic posters care to comment?
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2012, 12:50:33 PM »

I still do not get your point. You can pull lines out of context from Orthodox sources just as easily. Out of context, what do these sentences from St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy imply? Without context, or without a more complete text of the liturgy and without at least some foundational knowledge of Orthodox teaching you could be 'taken' apart by some Protestant polemecists.


From the First Antiphon:

Through the prayers of the (Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God), O Saviour, save us.

(I inserted the alternates of "Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God" as alternate translations interchange them, but they all refer to St. Mary, the Ever-Virgin, Birthgiver of God.)

From the Second Antiphon:

Through the prayers of Your Saints, O Saviour, save us!


But you went beyond your first, initially over-broad question to state:

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary"  and "But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers."


No one who is Orthodox would defend the excess of Marian devotion found on some of the web's more notorious Rosary or Co-redemtrix pages.However, there are certainly numerous pious Orthodox Christians who have a particularly keen reverence and love for the Theotokas and there are many pious Orthodox who have special reverence for other Saints. What is the problem?

Not that I have any particular expertise with respect to the 'Magesterium' of the Church of Rome, but I do not think that the above statement accurately reflects the teachings of the Roman Church on Mary.

Would one of our more learned Catholic posters care to comment?

Yes, he seems to be taking one phrase/notion from one web-site and using it, out of context as you say,  to represent the whole of Catholic teaching and practice on the Theotokos--which it does not.

For anyone who's interested and has the time you may want to *start* here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_papal_encyclicals_and_Apostolic_Letters, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology_of_the_popes

I went to wikipedia not because it is always exhaustive and always correct, but as a place where much of this info is compiled and easy to access.

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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2012, 01:25:32 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
That's interesting, because Palamas took the essence/engeries distinction to places that the Fathers never did, and he underscored the hesychast spirituality in a way the Fathers never did. Yet you seem to be fine with that.
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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2012, 01:27:54 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2012, 01:41:21 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.
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« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.

No one said they were.
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« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2012, 01:45:07 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.

No one said they were.

If so not even many of our prayers are to Jesus through Mary.
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« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2012, 01:46:14 PM »

And no , i don`t think we have this formula.
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« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2012, 01:50:06 PM »

Sure, I have quibbles with this:
This is the first 2 paragraphs from the page you linked: "Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son."


But is it really a far stone's throw from routinely praying this?

Quote
Ikos 12
Lauding Thy mercies and wonders, O Theotokos, we all praise Thee as our steadfast mediatress, and we bow down with compunction before Thee that prayest for us, and we implore: lift up Thy hands to Thy Son, that always in this life and after our death His mercy may continually be upon us that cry out to Thee:
Rejoice, our unashamed hope in life and after our repose!
Rejoice, Thou that dost grant a peaceful end of this life to them that trust in Thee!
Rejoice, our hope and defense on the day of judgment!
Rejoice, supplication of the just Judge!
Rejoice, deliverance from everlasting Gehenna!
Rejoice, hope of eternal salvation!
Rejoice, key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, portal of Paradise!
Rejoice, bridge leading to the heavens!
Rejoice, refuge and good intercessor for all repentant sinners!
Rejoice, joy of the angels!
Rejoice, glory and consolation of all the righteous!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!
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« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2012, 02:09:59 PM »

Sure, I have quibbles with this:
This is the first 2 paragraphs from the page you linked: "Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son."


But is it really a far stone's throw from routinely praying this?

Quote
Ikos 12
Lauding Thy mercies and wonders, O Theotokos, we all praise Thee as our steadfast mediatress, and we bow down with compunction before Thee that prayest for us, and we implore: lift up Thy hands to Thy Son, that always in this life and after our death His mercy may continually be upon us that cry out to Thee:
Rejoice, our unashamed hope in life and after our repose!
Rejoice, Thou that dost grant a peaceful end of this life to them that trust in Thee!
Rejoice, our hope and defense on the day of judgment!
Rejoice, supplication of the just Judge!
Rejoice, deliverance from everlasting Gehenna!
Rejoice, hope of eternal salvation!
Rejoice, key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, portal of Paradise!
Rejoice, bridge leading to the heavens!
Rejoice, refuge and good intercessor for all repentant sinners!
Rejoice, joy of the angels!
Rejoice, glory and consolation of all the righteous!
Rejoice, O Virgin Theotokos, full of Grace, Joy of all who sorrow!

I've always loved that.

Seems we're back to nuances of language and that good ol' distinction without a difference.

And, ya gotta luv that phrase in the first line: "we all praise Thee as our steadfast mediatress"  angel

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« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2012, 02:21:52 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)
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« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2012, 03:40:31 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.
Neither are ours.
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« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2012, 05:24:13 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

Right. So a heterodox poster is accusing an Orthodox poster of being....heterodox.

Must you rely on the poisoning the well fallacy to butress your arguments?
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« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2012, 05:47:49 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".
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« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2012, 06:13:28 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 06:17:11 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2012, 06:22:57 PM »

By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


I am very interested in the answer to this question.

Also I don't get the OPs exuberant angst over a phrase TAKE TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT that is particular to Father Louis De Montfort in his book "True Devotion to Mary"... I just don't see where he has the gravitas to make the statements he's asserting about this particular phrase that he clearly knows nothing about and shows little inclination to discover on his own...eh?    Cheesy

I think the whole thread is off...something.
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« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2012, 06:42:41 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.

I suspect now I posted my OP in the wrong forum. I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear.



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« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2012, 01:55:34 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.

I suspect now I posted my OP in the wrong forum. I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear.





I'm curious--why didn't you just ask your priest about it?  That would have saved you all this time and possible aggravation  Wink.

In any event, you *did* ask it here, and you were answered fairly comprehensively.  It seems, though, that you didn't like the answer(s) provided, both by Catholic *and* Orthodox posters.

As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox".
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« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2012, 03:31:02 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.

You were more direct than was I, but I get the same impression. I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west. (excepting of course, those whom we Orthodox regard as Marian cultists whose wishes have not caused a redefinition of doctrine by the Vatican to date. Even if they were to prevail, while this would surely widen the gap between east and west, Protestants would still see little if any distinction.)

I am all for leaving our heterodox baggage at the door when we enter into Holy Orthodoxy. One such baggage is Roman Catholic Marian devotion that is foreign to Orthodoxy, which Metr. Jonah and others have publicly denounced.

Which is why I am surprised that you, an Orthodox poster, feel comfortable defending a heterodox formulation--"to Jesus, through Mary"--which has no clear support either from Scripture, the Fathers or the Councils and which Orthodox posters and even Roman Catholic ones admit in this thread does not describe the entirety of Orthodox prayer life.

Are you just being "ecumenical"?

Why is this formulation (as seen in the web page I cite) not an example of the "Marian cultists" you rightly denounce? By what standard do you declare someone "Marian cultist".


1.  When and where did Met. Jonah condemn Marian devotions, and which in particular?  Source/reference please.

2.  Why *is* "this formulation..." an example of "the Marian cultists", if indeed, you believe it is?

3.  How is praying to and having a devotion to the Theotokos (yes, I know quite a number of Orthodox, even one or two priests, who express this--in those terms) different from a Marian devotion?

4.  Why do you seem to be so hung-up on that one particular phrase, "to Jesus, through Mary"?  It really is so, so, so very simple and clear, and really should be a non-issue, especially after all the discussion and explanation on this thread.

I suspect now I posted my OP in the wrong forum. I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear.





I'm curious--why didn't you just ask your priest about it?  That would have saved you all this time and possible aggravation  Wink.

In any event, you *did* ask it here, and you were answered fairly comprehensively.  It seems, though, that you didn't like the answer(s) provided, both by Catholic *and* Orthodox posters.

As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox".

It probably is Orthodox if you scratch the surface of black and white, and check out some of the language of the holy fathers as they were known to Father Louis de Montfort...but who has time for all that?  They language may not be precise but the idea...well.... Lips Sealed

Good idea for him to go to his priest...takes less time.
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« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2012, 06:54:36 PM »

Quote
As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox"

Yes, it has become evident from this thread that this particular Roman Catholic formulation "to Jesus, through Mary" is not Orthodox. That is a big relief for me, since I don't see it in Scripture, in the Fathers, in our liturgies or in our icons.

As I have related, I have more at stake than most Orthodox in seeking union with Rome. Yet I don't want union through simply absorbing Roman Catholic theology and praxis, including Marian hypertrophy. I spend a lot of time with Roman Catholics and I think many of them have absolutely no limits in their Marian devotion. My sister-in-law told me frankly that she has no relationship with Jesus but she does with the Virgin. I nearly started to cry. I know that is not authentic Roman Catholicism and that even the Bishop of Rome would reject that. But unfortunately, a lot of RC laity have some sloppy ideas regarding the Theotokos, that we Orthodox need to reject for the sake of union. As Metr. Jonah said to the ACNA:

Quote
"We share the hope of full ecumenical relationship and reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. However, I believe that we are of one mind, the Anglicans and the Orthodox, in that we reject the papal ecclesiology and the theological distortions of papal infallibility, and some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary. We love the Most Pure Mother of God, but I think we have to remember what is right and decent and in order. And it’s only by, only by the repeal of such doctrines that there is going to be any possibility of reconciliation of the Roman Church with the Orthodox Church… some don’t like that."

And so I would just pray this: Holy Theotokos, Wherefore thou art blessed by all generations, the Favourite of God, more radiant than the Cherubim, and more honourable than the Seraphim. Thy prayers preserve us unto the end uncondemned; for saved by thy help and protection, we send up glory, praise, thanksgiving and worship for all, to the One God in Trinity and Creator of all, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2012, 11:20:05 PM »

Quote
As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox"
Yes, it has become evident from this thread that this particular Roman Catholic formulation "to Jesus, through Mary" is not Orthodox. That is a big relief for me, since I don't see it in Scripture, in the Fathers, in our liturgies or in our icons.
Like so many things, it is heterodox if it is misunderstood. I have a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, but I have never felt that I must go through her to get to Christ. I see it more as power in numbers. I could either pray to Christ on my own, or I could pray to Christ on my own and ask the Blessed Virgin Mary and the entire communion of Saints to pray for me as well. This, I believe, is fully orthodox and is quite good to do. There is power in prayer, and there is power in numbers in terms of prayer. Why else would people ask others to pray for them?

As I have related, I have more at stake than most Orthodox in seeking union with Rome. Yet I don't want union through simply absorbing Roman Catholic theology and praxis, including Marian hypertrophy. I spend a lot of time with Roman Catholics and I think many of them have absolutely no limits in their Marian devotion. My sister-in-law told me frankly that she has no relationship with Jesus but she does with the Virgin. I nearly started to cry. I know that is not authentic Roman Catholicism and that even the Bishop of Rome would reject that. But unfortunately, a lot of RC laity have some sloppy ideas regarding the Theotokos, that we Orthodox need to reject for the sake of union. As Metr. Jonah said to the
Sounds like your sister-in-law does not have a very good relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary either then. An authentic relationship with her should always lead to a stronger relationship with Christ.

And so I would just pray this: Holy Theotokos, Wherefore thou art blessed by all generations, the Favourite of God, more radiant than the Cherubim, and more honourable than the Seraphim. Thy prayers preserve us unto the end uncondemned; for saved by thy help and protection, we send up glory, praise, thanksgiving and worship for all, to the One God in Trinity and Creator of all, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
Amen. Smiley
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« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2012, 02:28:45 PM »

Quote
As that particular formulation, "To Jesus, through Mary", derives specifically from St. Louis de Montfort, a very popular and highly regarded Western, post-schism saint, it seems highly unlikely that it would be, as you say, "Orthodox"

Yes, it has become evident from this thread that this particular Roman Catholic formulation "to Jesus, through Mary" is not Orthodox. That is a big relief for me, since I don't see it in Scripture, in the Fathers, in our liturgies or in our icons.


You must be *extremely* well-versed in and familiar with "the Fathers" since you don't see it or something even remotely similar to it in their writings.  I'm impressed!

As Mary said, though, it probably is, indeed, Orthodox, but in different wording.  Just because you don't find that particular formulation or phrase doesn't mean it ain't there in different phraseology.  But it seems you don't really want to accept that possibility.  Oh well.....

You never did answer the question about why you didn't ask this of your priest, btw.  Oh well.....
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« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2012, 02:49:54 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.
Catholics are not required to direct all of our prayers t Jesus, through Mary. But personally, why would anyone not want to ask the Theotokos to join us in all of our prayers?
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« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2012, 03:02:52 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel
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« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2012, 03:45:24 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel

For a selection of turgid and florid ideas and language concerning the Mother of God in Orthodoxy please see the references that follow.  Sometimes it is best to withhold judgment till we have a better idea of what we are talking about, and how to talk about it:

1.  Just in case anyone reading this thread thinks that a "cult" is always a BAD thing:

The Cult of the Mother of God in Byzantium

http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Birmingham-Byzantine-Ottoman-Studies/dp/0754662667/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-3


2.  and for those wanting a sense of the patristic consensus:

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God

http://www.amazon.com/Wider-Than-Heaven-Eighth-century-Homilies/dp/0881413267/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-1

On the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-God-Jacob-Serug/dp/0881411841/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-4

3. then a later approach that echoes these earlier homilies see

Mary the Mother of God: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas

http://www.amazon.com/Mary-Mother-God-Sermons-Gregory/dp/0977498301/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-2





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« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2012, 06:20:07 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel
As you will see from this thread, I have never questioned the communion of the saints or the efficacy of seeking the intercession of the Theotokos. In fact, I also cite that verse above.

What I do question is the misleading ideas that eminate from the statement "to Jesus, through Mary", as evidenced by the Roman Catholic website I noted. Even the Roman Catholic posters here admit that prayer subsists in more than just asking the Theotokos to intercede for us. In Orthodoxy, we praise God, we confess to Him, we worship Him in prayer, all directly to Him. So I infer that the phrase in question could only be correct and Orthodox if we said "to Jesus, sometimes through Mary".

I think we have established with some certainty in this thread that this phrase is not properly Orthodox and in fact does not describe the totality of the Orthodox prayer life.

I believe the danger of using such misleading phrases is that they lead to Marian hypertrophy and may in fact alienate us from God, as was the case for my RC sister-in-law.

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« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2012, 06:22:36 PM »

"The fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." ('Man' here can be taken to mean any person, I believe.)

We know that the saints live on, and that they can pray, so when we seek the intercession of the Blessed Virgin, her prayers would by rights be very powerful indeed.

 angel

For a selection of turgid and florid ideas and language concerning the Mother of God in Orthodoxy please see the references that follow.  Sometimes it is best to withhold judgment till we have a better idea of what we are talking about, and how to talk about it:

1.  Just in case anyone reading this thread thinks that a "cult" is always a BAD thing:

The Cult of the Mother of God in Byzantium

http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Birmingham-Byzantine-Ottoman-Studies/dp/0754662667/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-3


2.  and for those wanting a sense of the patristic consensus:

Wider Than Heaven: Eighth-century Homilies on the Mother of God

http://www.amazon.com/Wider-Than-Heaven-Eighth-century-Homilies/dp/0881413267/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-1

On the Mother of God by Jacob of Serug

http://www.amazon.com/Mother-God-Jacob-Serug/dp/0881411841/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-4

3. then a later approach that echoes these earlier homilies see

Mary the Mother of God: Sermons by Saint Gregory Palamas

http://www.amazon.com/Mary-Mother-God-Sermons-Gregory/dp/0977498301/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329075427&sr=1-2






You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.
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« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2012, 07:19:00 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context. 

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.
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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2012, 08:01:33 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context. 

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2012, 08:54:11 PM »

Sometimes I wonder if this whole section of the forum is just meant to troll Catholics.
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« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2012, 09:08:12 PM »

This thread reminded me of a story from a pretty recent convert to the Catholic Church, who was raised in a fundamentalist home. Her fundamentalist background gave her a pretty skewed conception of God, making him, in her mind, unapproachable:

Quote from: Elizabeth Esther
Additionally, the God of my childhood was a roaring, Almighty, vengeful God. I was terrified of Him. I often imagined him as a stern-faced judge just waiting to strike me down should I make a mistake.

When my childhood church imploded because of massive moral failure on the part of the male leadership, the engine of my belief just started shutting down involuntarily. 

I didn't know how to talk to God anymore. My twisted image of God prevented me from being able to come back to Him.

To my dismay, I discovered that all paths back to God were blocked.

Go to her blog and read Part 1 and Part 2 to see how she found her way back to Jesus... through Mary. 

Clemente, I don't know your sister in law and so I don't know her experiences, but if she's reaching out to Mary, how do you know Mary isn't gently leading her to her Son? Who are we to determine?

In the above blog posts, we have an example of someone going "to Jesus, through Mary".  Mary is doing for this woman what all of the saints do - point the way to Christ. I admit that I've only been exploring Orthodoxy for one year, but this would fit in with both Catholic and Orthodox teaching, right?
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« Reply #71 on: February 13, 2012, 11:13:52 AM »

Sometimes I wonder if this whole section of the forum is just meant to troll Catholics.

From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles."  I think that, given human nature, and the often-times inflammatory nature of religious discussion in general, the "trolling" of Catholics on this section may be an unintended consequence.  So, if the stated goal is to propagate one religious viewpoint, this will by definition come at the "expense" of others.  Unfortunately, sometimes that happens in a messy manner.
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« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2012, 11:19:43 AM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."
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« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2012, 11:44:41 AM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
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« Reply #74 on: February 13, 2012, 12:42:54 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
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« Reply #75 on: February 13, 2012, 12:54:19 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
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You are fun and funny, PP!!
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« Reply #76 on: February 13, 2012, 12:59:27 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
Roll Eyes

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You are fun and funny, PP!!

Just the means he finds necessary to propagate the Orthodox Christian faith  Grin Grin.  At least he has a good sense of humor  Wink!
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« Reply #77 on: February 13, 2012, 02:07:04 PM »


From the home page of this web site: "Our goal is the propagation of the Orthodox Christian faith—the faith of Jesus Christ and His Apostles." 

I think sometimes it should be amended to read..."by any means necessary..."

You do have a point.
Roll Eyes

 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

You are fun and funny, PP!!

Just the means he finds necessary to propagate the Orthodox Christian faith  Grin Grin.  At least he has a good sense of humor  Wink!
Love you guys too Smiley


PP
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« Reply #78 on: February 13, 2012, 02:16:04 PM »


Love you guys too Smiley


PP

You know I wasn't entirely serious, but it does seem that way on occasion, from this side of the fence.

And I like your Avatar.

M.
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« Reply #79 on: February 13, 2012, 05:58:21 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context. 

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.
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« Reply #80 on: February 13, 2012, 06:12:33 PM »

I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

I had the same hangup over the Paraklesis to the Theotokos, in which we pray to Mary, "Have compassion upon us; hasten, for we are lost in a throng of transgressions; do not turn your servants away with empty hands, for you alone are our only hope." But then I took my concerns to a priest, and he explained its proper meaning. The same perspective should be found here. 
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« Reply #81 on: February 13, 2012, 06:18:02 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context.  

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

Oy vey.  

If you haven't "gotten" it by now from all the above, I'm not up for another ride on the merry-go-round---getting too dizzy from your apparent inability or unwillingness to comprehend.  You want an Orthodox opinion about "to Jesus, through Mary", go ask your Orthodox priest.  There is nothing un-orthodox about it as far as Catholics are concerned.

Stop being hung-up on the precise words or as you call it "the formulation", which you have taken out of context, which have also been explained throughout the thread, and get the simplicity of it all.  It is *not* complicated or difficult.  And if it is not, technically speaking, "Orthodox", well....so what?  Then why do you bother with it at all???
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« Reply #82 on: February 13, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context.  

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

Oy vey.  

If you haven't "gotten" it by now from all the above, I'm not up for another ride on the merry-go-round---getting too dizzy from your apparent inability or unwillingness to comprehend.  You want an Orthodox opinion about "to Jesus, through Mary", go ask your Orthodox priest.  There is nothing un-orthodox about it as far as Catholics are concerned.

Stop being hung-up on the precise words or as you call it "the formulation", which you have taken out of context, which have also been explained throughout the thread, and get the simplicity of it all.  It is *not* complicated or difficult.  And if it is not, technically speaking, "Orthodox", well....so what?  Then why do you bother with it at all???
Great, I agree. This particular hypertrophic formulation is not Orthodox; there is no need for Orthodox here to try to square propositions "A" and "not A".

By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!
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« Reply #83 on: February 13, 2012, 07:05:12 PM »


Great, I agree. This particular hypertrophic formulation is not Orthodox; there is no need for Orthodox here to try to square propositions "A" and "not A".

By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!

When you say it is not Orthodox are you speaking of meaning or the formula on its face?
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« Reply #84 on: February 13, 2012, 10:06:46 PM »

Clemente, to be honest, I never heard the phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" until I read this thread. But hearing that it was a Catholic formulation, I looked at it in a way that made sense in a Catholic context, which many others in this thread have also done. In the same way, when I heard the Paraklesis refer to the Theotokos as "our only hope", I went to an Orthodox priest to make sure that I was looking at it in an Orthodox context.

I know you haven't gotten the variety of Orthodox responses you were hoping for, but podkarpatska had many good things to say:

From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

The intention behind the phrase is important. Is the phrase's intention, through your research of mainstream Catholic sites and as described by Catholics on this thread, Orthodox? Because this would be the way your wife would intend to use it.

I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west.

You are east and your wife is west, so like you said before, you have much at stake. But even if it is language you don't use, if the meaning behind it is Orthodox, why would you use it as a source of contention? I just don't want you to misrepresent her beliefs when you dialogue with her.
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« Reply #85 on: February 13, 2012, 11:32:15 PM »

I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here.
Then why did you post it in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion section?
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« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2012, 10:43:44 AM »


You seem to be arguing against a straw man, unless you can show support for the particular phrase in question.

Hardly...if you allow for an examination of underlying meaning and not simply words in black and white and what you assume the meaning to be, and as long as you get to dictate what kind of language use is acceptable and what is not...without any kind of standard or principle of comparison.

But I am accustomed to Orthodox believers denying Catholics most opportunities to speak of meaning or context.  

I am sure you'd find things in the texts that I've offered above that you quickly would seek to "explain"  or "explain" away...In fact I've seen other Orthodox believers use the same kinds of "weasel" words that they accuse Catholics of using when trying to explain Orthodox teaching to Protestants.

You aren't posing anything new here at all.

M.

Your words, Mary, seem to be falling on deaf ears, as it were.  Despite all that's been said here, Clemente seems to choose to be stuck on the phrase itself, taken out of context, rather than the underlying meaning and intent.  That despite his apparent deep familiarity with the Fathers.
I am really interested in the Orthodox viewpoint here. If my ears are deaf, it is because you are trying to sell me two irreconcilable propositions:

Proposition A: To Jesus, through Mary. We should be, according to the Rosary Confraternity, "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary." (I provide the quotation from the website since you accuse me unjustifiably of missing the context).

Proposition Not A: Not to Jesus through Mary. We should not offer all our prayers through Mary, though it may be efficacious to offer some through Mary.

Proposition A has been shown to be not Orthodox in origin or praxis. Even the Roman Catholic posters here say we don't need to go through Mary. So why should I accept that both A and not A are true? Have you thrown out scholastic reasoning completely in favour of a "mystical approach". Or rather, are you just trying to defend Marian hypertrophy?

And no, I don't see this formulation in the consensus of the Fathers, which according to the Council of Trent, is the Roman Catholic standard of orthodoxy as well.

Oy vey.  

If you haven't "gotten" it by now from all the above, I'm not up for another ride on the merry-go-round---getting too dizzy from your apparent inability or unwillingness to comprehend.  You want an Orthodox opinion about "to Jesus, through Mary", go ask your Orthodox priest.  There is nothing un-orthodox about it as far as Catholics are concerned.

Stop being hung-up on the precise words or as you call it "the formulation", which you have taken out of context, which have also been explained throughout the thread, and get the simplicity of it all.  It is *not* complicated or difficult.  And if it is not, technically speaking, "Orthodox", well....so what?  Then why do you bother with it at all???

By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!

I'm happy that your priest ate dinner at your home last night.  Were you there, too  Grin?  Have you actually *asked* him about this simple matter?  (And...it *is* quite simple!)

Having been in the Orthodox Church and returned to the Catholic Church of my baptism, I appreciate that you think I am now becoming very *o*rthodox  laugh!

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« Reply #87 on: February 14, 2012, 11:45:15 AM »

Clemente, to be honest, I never heard the phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" until I read this thread. But hearing that it was a Catholic formulation, I looked at it in a way that made sense in a Catholic context, which many others in this thread have also done. In the same way, when I heard the Paraklesis refer to the Theotokos as "our only hope", I went to an Orthodox priest to make sure that I was looking at it in an Orthodox context.

I know you haven't gotten the variety of Orthodox responses you were hoping for, but podkarpatska had many good things to say:

From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

The intention behind the phrase is important. Is the phrase's intention, through your research of mainstream Catholic sites and as described by Catholics on this thread, Orthodox? Because this would be the way your wife would intend to use it.

I often run into both clergy and laity who have converted who do struggle with the role of Mary within Orthodoxy and they often simply can not accept that the distinctions between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Mariology are generally not one of the greater issues facing east and west.

You are east and your wife is west, so like you said before, you have much at stake. But even if it is language you don't use, if the meaning behind it is Orthodox, why would you use it as a source of contention? I just don't want you to misrepresent her beliefs when you dialogue with her.
There is a false ecumenism that seeks reunion with heterodox Christians through glossing over the differences between Orthodoxry and another heterodox church. I this such an approach respects neither Orthodoxy no Roman Catholicism.

As such, I really admire the efforts by Orthodox leaders such as Metr. Jonah and Metr. Kiril to engage with heterodox Christians with a spirit of love and truth. Metr. Jonah has denounced Calvinism and Marian hypertrophy, whilst seeking to build bridges with Anglicans and Roman Catholics.

I think speaking truth with love and not glossing over real theological differences is the model for relations with all other Christians, whether they be wives or other Churches.
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« Reply #88 on: February 14, 2012, 12:05:26 PM »


By the way, I love that you urge me constantly to speak to my priest, (who ate dinner at my home last night). You are becoming very Orthodox!
I was not aware that telling one to seek pastoral clarification was the exclusive domain of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #89 on: February 14, 2012, 12:35:01 PM »


I think speaking truth with love and not glossing over real theological differences is the model for relations with all other Christians, whether they be wives or other Churches.

"Truth" seems to be the operative word and I don't think you have quite got it in this discussion.

What is worse than glossing over real differences is grabbing at distinctions without a difference and calling that the truth.

You haven't met anyone who does that have ya?
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« Reply #90 on: February 14, 2012, 12:56:06 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.
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« Reply #91 on: February 14, 2012, 01:06:14 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.

Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often? 

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.
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« Reply #92 on: February 14, 2012, 01:08:36 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.

Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often? 

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...
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« Reply #93 on: February 14, 2012, 01:10:06 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.

Did you read through the whole thread?  Especially those posts which attempted to offer an explanation of this and place it in its proper context?
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« Reply #94 on: February 14, 2012, 01:13:20 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.
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« Reply #95 on: February 14, 2012, 04:25:22 PM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
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« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2012, 04:55:40 PM »

Dear Clemente,

I'm hoping that you will indulge my curiosity here by answering a few questions.  Don't worry, they are different questions from the several above that you haven't (yet) answered  Grin.

In reply #28 you wrote: "Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation." and "...since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording."And then, in reply #56 you wrote: "I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear."  

So, here's my confusion--you are Orthodox; you evangelize with (and presumably for) Roman Catholics; you've picked a phrase out of its context from a specifically oriented Roman Catholic website;  you then, because you are evangelizing "some Protestant friends", ask about that Roman Catholic phrase/formulation/notion on an Orthodox website wanting to get, apparently without recourse to your Orthodox priest, an Orthodox opinion about the Roman Catholic phrase your Protestant friends object to.  Are you "evangelizing" them to hopefully become Catholic or to hopefully become Orthodox?  Or, are you just confusing them?  Why did you not bring this to a *Catholic* website if you wanted an explanation of it?  Why do you argue with the Catholics here about the Catholic explanation of it saying, as one who evangelizes Protestants for the Catholics, that you wanted an *Orthodox* explanation of it or to know if it is, indeed, "Orthodox"? 

See the confusion??

To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
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« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2012, 06:14:23 PM »

Dear Clemente,

I'm hoping that you will indulge my curiosity here by answering a few questions.  Don't worry, they are different questions from the several above that you haven't (yet) answered  Grin.

In reply #28 you wrote: "Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation." and "...since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording."And then, in reply #56 you wrote: "I am really not interested in why Roman Catholics use particular formulations in their Marian devotions or in debating Marianism more with Roman Catholics. I was really interested in whether this was Orthodox. I tried to make this clear."  

So, here's my confusion--you are Orthodox; you evangelize with (and presumably for) Roman Catholics; you've picked a phrase out of its context from a specifically oriented Roman Catholic website;  you then, because you are evangelizing "some Protestant friends", ask about that Roman Catholic phrase/formulation/notion on an Orthodox website wanting to get, apparently without recourse to your Orthodox priest, an Orthodox opinion about the Roman Catholic phrase your Protestant friends object to.  Are you "evangelizing" them to hopefully become Catholic or to hopefully become Orthodox?  Or, are you just confusing them?  Why did you not bring this to a *Catholic* website if you wanted an explanation of it?  Why do you argue with the Catholics here about the Catholic explanation of it saying, as one who evangelizes Protestants for the Catholics, that you wanted an *Orthodox* explanation of it or to know if it is, indeed, "Orthodox"? 

See the confusion??

To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
Thank you for expressing the same confusion that I was experiencing.
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« Reply #98 on: February 15, 2012, 09:13:46 AM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
You must think yourself a prophet, since you seem certain of I have a different agendum from that already shared..

These are interesting quotes but again I don't see the link with the original question I pose. If my question seems vague, why do you provide an even more opaque response?

Let me refocus: Do you think it is Orthodox to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

How does an Orthodox do this in practice? How do you say the Trisagion prayers or pray the Divine Liturgy through Mary?
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« Reply #99 on: February 15, 2012, 10:01:18 AM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?
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« Reply #100 on: February 15, 2012, 11:39:43 AM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way.  

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on those to whom you pray, and when....?....well ok!!
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« Reply #101 on: February 15, 2012, 04:39:04 PM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
You must think yourself a prophet, since you seem certain of I have a different agendum from that already shared..

These are interesting quotes but again I don't see the link with the original question I pose. If my question seems vague, why do you provide an even more opaque response?

Let me refocus: Do you think it is Orthodox to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

How does an Orthodox do this in practice? How do you say the Trisagion prayers or pray the Divine Liturgy through Mary?

No it is not Orthodox to use Mary as a 'super - intercessor' or the only route to God. However, unless we do not understand each other clearly, you seem to know the answer to your broader question while continuing to press for some Orthodox support for what seems to be your attempt to make these two concepts (Mary as intercessor and direct appeals through prayer to either God the Father or God the Son) mutually exclusive.

Of course the Trisagion prayer is a direct appeal to the three Persons of the Holy Trinity. Of course the Jesus Prayer is a direct appeal to God the Son for mercy and forgiveness.

Where exactly do you take issue with the responses you have received? I, for one, am confused here.
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« Reply #102 on: February 15, 2012, 05:06:00 PM »

Your pulling a quote from Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA's comments to disaffected Anglicans is again an action that demonstrates nothing and shows to me at least that you have an agenda from your former Protestant self that you wish to validate through your interpretation of Orthodoxy.

From the words you chose to quote the Metropolitan said, clearly and simply regarding the role of Mary that Orthodox rejects: "....some of the hypertrophy regarding Our Most Holy Lady Theotokos, the Ever-Virgin Mary."

There has not been ONE Orthodox poster attempting to answer your vague, unfocused question who would take issue with the Metropolitan's statement. Indeed, many of the Roman Catholic posters have even seconded that point of view from their own perspective. Yet you remain argumentative by restating variations of the obvious over again and again.

For a poignant  point of view on Mary and eschatology written by another Orthodox Metropolitan, I would urge you to carefully read and consider the words of the late Metropolitan Nicholas of Amissos written on the Feast of the Dormition 2010 some six months before his repose as which he concludes with a prayer from St. Nilus:

“Wherefore, at the time also of my death, stand before me, O my helper, and be not then ashamed of me. For I know, O Virgin, that I am guilty of many sins, and I, the wretched one, tremble, contemplating that hour. But you, my Joy, reveal unto me then your presence, work your mercy marvelously upon me, O Intercessoress for my salvation. Rescue me, O Mistress, from the cruelty of the demons, and from the fearsome and terrible trial of the spirits of the air, and deliver me from their malice, and transform all that grief and sorrow into joy by your enlightenment and grant me to pass unharmed through the principalities and powers of darkness and to attain to worship at the throne of glory before Christ our God Who reigns there with His Eternal Father and All-Holy Spirit. Amen”

 http://www.acrod.org/metropolitan/own-words/homilies/dormition-2010

I suppose you also take issue with St. Gregory Palamas, Archbishop of Thessalonica in his Sermon on the Dormition of the Virgin Mary found on the main webpage of Metropolitan Jonah's Orthodox Church in America:

"It is obvious, moreover, that She will never cease to benefit all creatures through all the ages to come. I speak not only about the creatures we see around us, but also of the chief commanders of the heavenly hosts, the bodiless and celestial hierarchies, It is only through Her that they, and we, are united to God, and touch the Intangible. Isaiah shows this clearly: he saw that the Seraphim did not take the coal from the altar directly, but held it with tongs, by which he touched the coal to the lips of the prophet to purify them (Is. 6: 6)." http://oca.org/fs/sermons/sermon-on-the-dormition-of-the-virgin-mary

If you are searching for a path to theosis which leads not through, or together with the prayerful intercession of the Birthgiver of God, I suspect you sir, are searching in vain.
You must think yourself a prophet, since you seem certain of I have a different agendum from that already shared..

These are interesting quotes but again I don't see the link with the original question I pose. If my question seems vague, why do you provide an even more opaque response?

Let me refocus: Do you think it is Orthodox to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

How does an Orthodox do this in practice? How do you say the Trisagion prayers or pray the Divine Liturgy through Mary?


Where exactly do you take issue with the responses you have received? I, for one, am confused here.

Not just you!

Alice in Wonderland Quotes From the Cheshire Cat:

"You know, we could make her really angry! Shall we try?"

"Oh, no, no!" (Alice)

"Oh, but it's loads of fun!" (Alice in Wonderland movie quote)

“Which road do I take?" (Alice)

"Where do you want to go?"

"I don't know," Alice answered.

"Then, said the cat, it doesn't matter.”

“If you don't know where you are going, any road will get you there.” (Cheshire Cat movie quote, I believe)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2012, 05:10:48 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: February 15, 2012, 05:20:20 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on who you pray to and when....?....well ok!!
However, I would think that there is a problem when some one is praying exclusively to the saints and never to the Holy Trinity. I think such a person would be missing the entire point of the faith. That being said, I don't think that there is any problem whatsoever with a person who asks for the Theotokos to join him in every prayer he makes. In fact, I think that it may be a very good thing to conclude each prayer to God with a petition to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.
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« Reply #104 on: February 15, 2012, 05:21:19 PM »

Clemente,

If you (or your Protestant friends whom you are helping the Roman Catholics "evangelize"  Grin) are having any issues concerning the place of the Theotokos in your Orthodox faith, you may want to read the article "The Veneration of the Virgin Mary in the Orthodox Church" by Archbp. Dmitri of Dallas and the South.  You can find it here: http://www.orthodoxresearchinstitute.org/articles/dogmatics/dmitri_veneration_mary.htm

There is a wealth of other material "out there" that also may help you with this.  If that, indeed, is an issue.
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« Reply #105 on: February 15, 2012, 05:24:46 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on who you pray to and when....?....well ok!!
However, I would think that there is a problem when some one is praying exclusively to the saints and never to the Holy Trinity. I think such a person would be missing the entire point of the faith. That being said, I don't think that there is any problem whatsoever with a person who asks for the Theotokos to join him in every prayer he makes. In fact, I think that it may be a very good thing to conclude each prayer to God with a petition to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.

Indeed!

When I pray the Rosary, at the conclusion of every "Our Father" I pray "Through the prayers of thy most pure Mother, have mercy on us and save us."
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« Reply #106 on: February 15, 2012, 06:50:47 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way.  

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.
I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.
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« Reply #107 on: February 15, 2012, 07:19:13 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?
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« Reply #108 on: February 16, 2012, 12:39:43 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

It is *precisely* through Mary and the saints that many people do come to know God and come to the Church!  I think it was Catherine de Hueck Doherty who said something to the effect of "Mary is the doorway to Christ" and through this doorway, i.e. Mary, we pass to get to Him.  I know this was very true for me personally.  While never denying (although sometimes highly doubting) the existence of God, it took many years and eventually a providential personal encounter with Mary to bring me to Christ and the Catholic Church.  I owe my conversion to her and her direct intercession.

So, even though I and others may sometimes pray "exclusively to Mary....", I know that it is God Who hears them and acts on them, or not, as the case may be.
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« Reply #109 on: February 16, 2012, 01:07:47 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

Yes.  That kind of extreme singularity is rarely a permanent fixture of a person's spiritual life.  It certainly is off-set the more deeply one becomes involved in the liturgical life of the Church.

But to have a particular devotion to the Mother of God is not an oddity and is never meant to substitute for liturgy or immersion in the liturgical cycle and lives of the saints.  In fact, most of the people that I know who have a particular Marian devotion are quite well attuned to the liturgical year and the lives of the saints.

It tends to be those who have a very very simple faith, an untrained faith, or a kind of lassitude in faith who go to some sort of extreme in Marian devotions.  They tend to be overly dependent on the externals of any devotion, and need to be around others like themselves for affirmation.  People who have books shelves full of texts that are marginally new age in their talk about prayer and the spiritual life.  People who need every possible rosary in their house, statues galore arranged by price tag, and images on every bare wall space.

But...these are still souls on the journey so there's no good in condemning their place on the way!!

M.
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« Reply #110 on: February 16, 2012, 03:11:07 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

Yes.  That kind of extreme singularity is rarely a permanent fixture of a person's spiritual life.  It certainly is off-set the more deeply one becomes involved in the liturgical life of the Church.

But to have a particular devotion to the Mother of God is not an oddity and is never meant to substitute for liturgy or immersion in the liturgical cycle and lives of the saints.  In fact, most of the people that I know who have a particular Marian devotion are quite well attuned to the liturgical year and the lives of the saints.

It tends to be those who have a very very simple faith, an untrained faith, or a kind of lassitude in faith who go to some sort of extreme in Marian devotions.  They tend to be overly dependent on the externals of any devotion, and need to be around others like themselves for affirmation.  People who have books shelves full of texts that are marginally new age in their talk about prayer and the spiritual life.  People who need every possible rosary in their house, statues galore arranged by price tag, and images on every bare wall space.

But...these are still souls on the journey so there's no good in condemning their place on the way!!

M.

And there can likewise be a healthy Orthodox devotion to Mary. Frankly, it has been my privilege to personally know and respect more than a few Orthodox priests and at least one wonderful Bishop who were devoted to Mary, the Theotokas as their intercessor of choice. But it is not to the exclusion of her only Beloved Son. Just as the Jesus prayer is profound in its simplicity, to those men, the supplication 'O Maria, Mati Boze, molisja za nas - O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us', was likewise profound and an important part of making them who they were.
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« Reply #111 on: February 16, 2012, 05:31:30 PM »

I think you have identified the crux of the difference in perspectives we have. I would not equate prayer to the three persons of the Trinity, the Theotokos and the saints; the Holy Trinity is a different category from the saints. Thus, for me, a Christian prayer life that involves long periods of time without prayer to the Holy Trinity--in our daily prayers, in our confessions, in our liturgical prayers-- is scarcely a Christian prayer life.

That said, of course God can hear and answer the prayers of even those who don't know how to pray.

I am glad in any case that you are seemingly beyond your period of "distress". Praise God.

What about in the case of Elizabeth Esther, who I mentioned in post #70? Her past experience in an abusive church gave her a distorted image of God, and she was afraid to communicate with Him. Praying to Mary ended up being safer for her, and in the end, her relationship with Mary corrected her distorted views. She now understands that she was mistaken about God, and He is once again the center of her prayer life.

I don't think praying exclusively to Mary or any of the saints would be a permanent solution, but isn't it their role to lead people to God? Would it be inappropriate for people to come to know God through Mary and the saints?

Yes.  That kind of extreme singularity is rarely a permanent fixture of a person's spiritual life.  It certainly is off-set the more deeply one becomes involved in the liturgical life of the Church.

But to have a particular devotion to the Mother of God is not an oddity and is never meant to substitute for liturgy or immersion in the liturgical cycle and lives of the saints.  In fact, most of the people that I know who have a particular Marian devotion are quite well attuned to the liturgical year and the lives of the saints.

It tends to be those who have a very very simple faith, an untrained faith, or a kind of lassitude in faith who go to some sort of extreme in Marian devotions.  They tend to be overly dependent on the externals of any devotion, and need to be around others like themselves for affirmation.  People who have books shelves full of texts that are marginally new age in their talk about prayer and the spiritual life.  People who need every possible rosary in their house, statues galore arranged by price tag, and images on every bare wall space.

But...these are still souls on the journey so there's no good in condemning their place on the way!!

M.

And there can likewise be a healthy Orthodox devotion to Mary. Frankly, it has been my privilege to personally know and respect more than a few Orthodox priests and at least one wonderful Bishop who were devoted to Mary, the Theotokas as their intercessor of choice. But it is not to the exclusion of her only Beloved Son. Just as the Jesus prayer is profound in its simplicity, to those men, the supplication 'O Maria, Mati Boze, molisja za nas - O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us', was likewise profound and an important part of making them who they were.
Thank you very much for your insights. God bless.
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« Reply #112 on: February 16, 2012, 05:36:20 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?
I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.


Ya, I don't think too many Odox would agree with this statement. Sounds a bit much. Orthodox consider petitioning the saints for intercessory prayer to be supplementary (auxiliary) to our prayers to God.


Which person of the Trinity do you pray to most often?  

At one point in my life, I found that I could only bring myself to address God the Father.

I wonder if some of you would tell me that at that point I was not Christian...

M.

I'm not sure I see the relevance here to intercessory prayer...i wouldn't call you out for praying Our Father's all day if that was your choice...

The point is that for many years, in deepest distress, I prayed in my own words to God the Father, never thinking of, never considering Jesus, the Mother of God, nor the saints.  I did not pretend they did not exist, but I had NOTHING to say to them in any way. 

How is that different from having, in one's spiritual life, any other univocal direction to prayer?

It really is not.  It all depends upon the person, the circumstances and their place in the journey of faith.


So by analogy you equate praying exclusively to the Father with praying exclusively to the Theotokos?

That is a novel twist but not really to the point.

The point that I was trying to make is that ALL faith lives are not precisely the same, nor do they remain static throughout the life of a person.  Someone like myself may go for years without expressing prayer except to the Father, others to the Holy Spirit, others to Jesus, others to Mary, others to all the saints or some of the saints...and this changes from person to person, and time to time.

There is room in the Church, at least the papal Church, for all of these souls who are seeking salvation in fear and trembling.  They are aided and assisted in their journey by various devotions and objects of devotion, and most importantly by liturgy.

If Orthodoxy wants to keep a tight legalistic control on who you pray to and when....?....well ok!!
However, I would think that there is a problem when some one is praying exclusively to the saints and never to the Holy Trinity. I think such a person would be missing the entire point of the faith. That being said, I don't think that there is any problem whatsoever with a person who asks for the Theotokos to join him in every prayer he makes. In fact, I think that it may be a very good thing to conclude each prayer to God with a petition to the Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf.
This sounds quite balanced and reasonable. Thank you.
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« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2012, 10:32:17 PM »

Does anyone know a saying that goes something like "Whenever you say a Hail Mary, there's an automatic Glory Be"? It's been a while since I've heard it, so I may have mixed up the wording a little bit.
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« Reply #114 on: February 20, 2012, 02:11:44 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
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« Reply #115 on: February 20, 2012, 04:05:38 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.

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« Reply #116 on: February 20, 2012, 08:58:46 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
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« Reply #117 on: February 20, 2012, 11:00:42 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
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« Reply #118 on: February 20, 2012, 11:03:53 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

+1
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« Reply #119 on: February 20, 2012, 11:19:20 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.
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« Reply #120 on: February 20, 2012, 11:26:01 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
This question has been addressed in a number of previous threads. See, for example,
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38438.0.html
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« Reply #121 on: February 20, 2012, 11:35:11 AM »

An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

It isn't very clear to me what either of you are arguing regarding the relationship between "To Jesus, through Mary" and "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
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« Reply #122 on: February 20, 2012, 11:38:14 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

Not misleading at all.  If you go back and read the explanations offered on this thread of "To Jesus, through Mary", and allow the utter simplicity of it to penetrate your heart you will, hopefully, realize that the two phrases are very similar indeed.  Try to get past the website you found that phrase on; try to get past the very specific context in which that phrase was used; try to get past preconceived notions of what is "Orthodox" and what is "Catholic" (they are often, not always, one and the same thing or at least very similar, worded differently to reflect the cultural context out of which they arose);  it is all about Mary interceding for us.  So what if "no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary""?  It's much more simple and less complicated than that, *and*, for those who so wish, can also include that.

Besides, even your erstwhile Orthodox brother, podkarpatska, endorsed my thought in his post above.

As for the question being addressed elsewhere, again, so what?  It was appropriate to the context of this thread, having been asked very early on in it.
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« Reply #123 on: February 20, 2012, 11:38:47 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".
This question has been addressed in a number of previous threads. See, for example,
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,38438.0.html

Alright, I'll take a look.

I see one interesting point in the first few posts (which is as far as I have gotten so far):

Romans 11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Ask them if St Paul saves people. Cool
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« Reply #124 on: February 20, 2012, 11:43:04 AM »

An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

It isn't very clear to me what either of you are arguing regarding the relationship between "To Jesus, through Mary" and "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

In a nutshell--that they represent, basically, the same notion.
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« Reply #125 on: February 20, 2012, 11:45:10 AM »

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

If I remember correctly, when "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" was originally brought up on this thread, it was being used to argue that "To Jesus, through Mary" is orthodox.

Is "To Jesus, through Mary" now being used to argue that "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is orthodox?
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« Reply #126 on: February 20, 2012, 11:46:18 AM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.
There's a big difference between asking the saints or the Theotokos to pray for our salvation and asking them to "save us."
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« Reply #127 on: February 20, 2012, 11:51:50 AM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
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« Reply #128 on: February 20, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....

Hell on earth  Shocked  Grin.
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« Reply #129 on: February 20, 2012, 11:55:31 AM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory
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« Reply #130 on: February 20, 2012, 12:03:19 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

Then I'm afraid all Orthodox must leave, as they don't believe there is a purgatory  Grin laugh angel!

On the other hand, if it *is* purgatory, there is hope for all of us Catholics here  Grin Grin Grin!
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« Reply #131 on: February 20, 2012, 12:04:37 PM »

But none of us are really being forced to be here. (Or are we? :sinister laugh:)
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« Reply #132 on: February 20, 2012, 12:47:44 PM »

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?

If I remember correctly, when "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" was originally brought up on this thread, it was being used to argue that "To Jesus, through Mary" is orthodox.

Is "To Jesus, through Mary" now being used to argue that "Most Holy Theotokos, save us" is orthodox?

Just my opinion:

1.  "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"--orthodox and Orthodox.

2.  "To Jesus, through Mary"--orthodox and Catholic

Both 1 and 2 comprise a distinction without a huge difference (if any), although depending on how widely or narrowly one interprets them there could certainly be the perception of a difference.

Does that make sense?

If I'm wrong, I hope someone with greater breadth and depth of understanding and theological knowledge of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism will set me straight.
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« Reply #133 on: February 20, 2012, 12:58:34 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

Then I'm afraid all Orthodox must leave, as they don't believe there is a purgatory  Grin laugh angel!

On the other hand, if it *is* purgatory, there is hope for all of us Catholics here  Grin Grin Grin!

Toll Houses, anyone?
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« Reply #134 on: February 20, 2012, 12:59:22 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

I was thinking more along the lines of Dante....
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« Reply #135 on: February 20, 2012, 01:08:18 PM »

I was wondering if we are all lost souls, trapped here, condemned to discuss the same stuff over and over and over again never reaching a common shore of consensus......just a thought.....
Maybe this is purgatory

Then I'm afraid all Orthodox must leave, as they don't believe there is a purgatory  Grin laugh angel!

On the other hand, if it *is* purgatory, there is hope for all of us Catholics here  Grin Grin Grin!

Toll Houses, anyone?

At my age, I'm beginning to think more about senior condominiums  Grin Grin.  But...thanks, anyway  Wink.
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« Reply #136 on: February 20, 2012, 01:26:14 PM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?

I'm coming a bit late to this discussion, but I'm going to jump on the proverbial bandwagon and say that I too am interested in the explanation of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us".

Could it be as simple as a shortened and slightly re-worded version of something like "Through the prayers of thy most pure mother, O Savior save us"?  An Orthodox version of "To Jesus, through Mary"....perhaps?
No, this thread has established quite clearly that "To Jesus, through Mary" is neither Orthodox in origin or practice. In fact, no Roman Catholic in this thread admits to want to "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary". So please, don't offer misleading comparisons like that.

The person who coined the phrase didn't mean what you are saying here either.

So I think it is pretty safe to say that what you are asserting by the phrase and not the phrase itself, is neither Catholic nor Orthodox.

So you are right...Your assertions and presumptions here, having nothing to do with the phrase itself, are wrong.
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« Reply #137 on: February 20, 2012, 01:33:28 PM »

To be honest, it's still entirely clear to me what Clemente is saying it means.
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« Reply #138 on: February 20, 2012, 01:39:31 PM »

Here's a related question that I'm very curious about: in my personal experience, I have very often heard "to Jesus through Mary", but I have very rarely heard "to Jesus, through the saints" or "to Jesus, through Mary and the saints".

Is this your experience as well?
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« Reply #139 on: February 20, 2012, 03:07:22 PM »

Here's a related question that I'm very curious about: in my personal experience, I have very often heard "to Jesus through Mary", but I have very rarely heard "to Jesus, through the saints" or "to Jesus, through Mary and the saints".

Is this your experience as well?

Can't say I've heard either of the latter two expressions, at least not worded specifically that way.
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« Reply #140 on: February 20, 2012, 03:47:50 PM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.


So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?
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« Reply #141 on: February 20, 2012, 06:14:08 PM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.


So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?
Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...
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« Reply #142 on: February 20, 2012, 06:29:37 PM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.


So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?
Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...

Then substitute, say, St. Basil the Great......
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« Reply #143 on: February 20, 2012, 09:26:38 PM »

...To echo Papist from his post above, how do you explain to your Protestant friends whom you are evangelizing for the Roman Catholics, the phrase/notion, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!"
I know that Mary can pray for us and can intercede for us, but I did not know that she had the power to save people. I thought that we were saved by God's grace?
I'll take a crack at this.

We are saved by God's grace. Yet we are also called to "work out" our "salvation in fear and trembling". "Salvation" in Orthodoxy is both justification and sanctification or theosis. So just as St. Paul prayed in Phil 1:19 "For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ", we can ask others, including the saints, to pray for our "salvation" or deliverance from sin through their prayers and the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet all by God's grace--that "sola" still makes sense.


So in your view there is nothing wrong with asking the saints to save us? For example, it is OK to address a prayer to St. Photius such as: St. Photius, save us?
Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...
From the Orthodox point of view is there a difference between asking Mary to save us and asking a saint to save us?
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« Reply #144 on: February 20, 2012, 09:54:30 PM »

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...
From the Orthodox point of view is there a difference between asking Mary to save us and asking a saint to save us?

I was wondering that too.
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« Reply #145 on: February 20, 2012, 10:10:54 PM »

Fortunately, I don't have to spend Great Lent contemplating that question, since "St Photius, save us" is about as Orthodox as "To Jesus, through Mary"...
From the Orthodox point of view is there a difference between asking Mary to save us and asking a saint to save us?

I was wondering that too.

Someone else might disagree, but I will proffer an answer: no.

Even in theology (let alone ordinary use), the Greek "soson" does not carry the same connotations as the English "save" has come to.

"Yperaghia Theotoke soson imas" / "most holy Theotokos save us" is intoned halfway through "tis panayias, ahrantou ..." / "commemorating our most holy ...":

--------------------------------------------

Tis panayias, ahrantou, yperevlogimeni, endhoxou dhespinis imon Theotokou ke aeiparthenou Marias, meta panton ton ayion mnimonevsantes eaftous ke allilous ke pasan tin zoin imon Hristo to Theo parathometha.

Commemorating our most holy, pure, most blessed and glorious lady, the God-bearer and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and one another and our whole life unto Christ our God.

--------------------------------------------

The above makes it clear that the Theotokos is pre-eminent amongst the saints who we commemorate and beg for speedy intercession and help, but it is Christ-God to whom we commend ourselves, each other and our whole life.
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