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Author Topic: "To Jesus, through Mary"  (Read 4504 times) Average Rating: 0
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Clemente
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« on: February 09, 2012, 11:45:44 AM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 01:11:34 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 01:36:05 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

Can you give an example?

I know many Catholics, Eastern and Western talk or write about approaching Jesus through His mother, Mary.

I also remember a prayer I learned during my Orthodox days and continue to use even now: "Through the prayers of thy most pure Mother, have mercy on us, O Lord, and save us."  Not really very different, is it?
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 01:37:33 PM »

Are you understanding that they always pray to Jesus through Mary?  If so, then I dont think thats accurate.  While Catholics and Orthodox dont agree on everything regarding Mary, they both still do ask for her prayers of intercession.

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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 02:28:13 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:33:35 PM by Clemente » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2012, 02:36:46 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 02:38:19 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves essentially through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayers, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

While Orthodox and Roman Catholics are united, for the most part, in their devotion to the Mother of God and their views on her salvific role are similar, albeit expressed in different terminology which often leads to unfortunate exaggerations based on misunderstanding those differing ways of using language. However, it is true there are those within the Roman Catholic Church, many of whom have carried their beliefs to almost cult like status from our point of  view and who have carried such devotion to what we Orthodox view as the brink of real heresy and to a point where much of the RCC is uncomfortable.

I have attached an interesting FAQ from an American Catholic college on this issue. I certainly don't agree with all it states, but it appears to be fairly factual and provides cited documentation for its assertions. http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/questions/faq/faq21.html
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:39:36 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 02:41:36 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

I don't think we *need* to go through Mary to get His attention, but it sure doesn't do anyone any harm  Wink.  Jesus will *always* pay attention to His mother.  He'd better, as she's a *Jewish* mother  laugh laugh.  Catholics and Orthodox very frequently ask for her intercession with Him.  That's all it's about, really.

Think about it--God didn't *need* Mary to become incarnate, but He obviously had good reason to or wouldn't have done so.  So...He comes to us *through* Mary; we reciprocate by going to Him through her, too.  Works out nicely, don't ya think  Wink.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 02:59:43 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

I don't think we *need* to go through Mary to get His attention, but it sure doesn't do anyone any harm  Wink.  Jesus will *always* pay attention to His mother.  He'd better, as she's a *Jewish* mother  laugh laugh.  Catholics and Orthodox very frequently ask for her intercession with Him.  That's all it's about, really.

Think about it--God didn't *need* Mary to become incarnate, but He obviously had good reason to or wouldn't have done so.  So...He comes to us *through* Mary; we reciprocate by going to Him through her, too.  Works out nicely, don't ya think  Wink.

Again, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede, since "the prayers of a righteous man avail much". Great. There is good support for this in the Fathers.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary. That doesn't square with my (limited) Orthodox experience. Hence, my question.

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary". I recognise that Roman Catholic theology develops differently from that of Orthodoxy and requires, perhaps, less grounding in the Fathers. But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers.
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 03:03:11 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 03:07:45 PM »

Yes, I believe there are Catholics who essentially commit to praying through Mary. For example,

Quote
By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son.

http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

I know there are a number of things on this site that are un Orthodox. But I wonder if, conceptually, Orthodox would see themselves going through the mediation of the Theotokos for prayer, spiritual gifts, grace, etc.

Just for the record, I have no problem with the communion of the saints in heaven and seeking their intercession (I worked through these before becoming Orthodox). But I would be really uncomfortable with the idea that we should need to go through the Theotokos to get Jesus' attention or become "dependent on Mary in all things".

I don't think we *need* to go through Mary to get His attention, but it sure doesn't do anyone any harm  Wink.  Jesus will *always* pay attention to His mother.  He'd better, as she's a *Jewish* mother  laugh laugh.  Catholics and Orthodox very frequently ask for her intercession with Him.  That's all it's about, really.

Think about it--God didn't *need* Mary to become incarnate, but He obviously had good reason to or wouldn't have done so.  So...He comes to us *through* Mary; we reciprocate by going to Him through her, too.  Works out nicely, don't ya think  Wink.

Again, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede, since "the prayers of a righteous man avail much". Great. There is good support for this in the Fathers.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary. That doesn't square with my (limited) Orthodox experience. Hence, my question.

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary". I recognise that Roman Catholic theology develops differently from that of Orthodoxy and requires, perhaps, less grounding in the Fathers. But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers.

Christ Himself was "channeled" to us through the Theotokos.  I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.  The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 03:10:15 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.

I see that, but if "prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass", I don't understand why you think it is so interesting that this phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" doesn't appear in the mass.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 03:16:10 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.

I see that, but if "prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass", I don't understand why you think it is so interesting that this phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" doesn't appear in the mass.

Where did I say that "this phrase 'to Jesus, through Mary' doesn't appear in the mass"?  It doesn't (to the best of my recollection  Wink), but I did *not* say that it was interesting that it doesn't.  Why should it?

Are there not Orthodox prayers and phrases of prayers that do not appear in the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Nothing particularly strange or interesting about that.  Or is there? 
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 03:21:10 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 03:22:29 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 03:22:55 PM »

I think it is interesting to note that none of the prayers of the Mass, whatsoever, are concluded "to Jesus, through Mary." Not one.

This would be relevant if Roman Catholics practiced lex credendi lex orandi. But they do not and thus believe rather much that doesn't appear in the mass.

We don't??  Then where'd this come from?--The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church's faith precedes the faith of the believer who is invited to adhere to it. When the Church celebrates the sacraments, she confesses the faith received from the apostles - whence the ancient saying: lex orandi, lex credendi (or: legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, according to Prosper of Aquitaine). The law of prayer is the law of faith: the Church believes as she prays. Liturgy is a constitutive element of the holy and living Tradition." (#1124)  from here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm#III

It is the law of *prayer*, but prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass.

I see that, but if "prayer consists of more than *only* the Mass", I don't understand why you think it is so interesting that this phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" doesn't appear in the mass.

Where did I say that "this phrase 'to Jesus, through Mary' doesn't appear in the mass"?  It doesn't (to the best of my recollection  Wink), but I did *not* say that it was interesting that it doesn't. 
Sorry, you are right, that was another poster.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 03:30:19 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.

Maybe it's a question of sloppy understanding.  There really is nothing odd about it.  If you think awhile about the ramifications of Christ coming to us **through** the Theotokos, it all makes sense.  He was dependent upon her for his flesh, for life in her womb, for his birth, for nursing and bathing Him as a baby, raising and educating Him as a child.  He was dependent upon her for all things for a goodly portion of His life on earth.  That is to say, without her ***everything*** would have been totally different and we, for our salvation, as Papist points out above, depend on her, although it is Christ Himself who saves us.  Understand?
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 03:32:24 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 03:39:33 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 03:41:22 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?

We, too, praise God.  We, too, thank Him, worship Him.  We do all of that during the Holy Mass, and privately. We confess our sins to Him via the priest in the confessional.

We are dependent upon her for all things because, as I tried to explain above, without her, we wouldn't have Him.  I know that's grossly over-simplifying it, but there it is.  We do *not*, however, offer all our prayers to God through her, confess to or through her, or praise God through her.  And the phrase "to Jesus, through Mary" does not mean or imply or suggest that at all.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 03:41:57 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 03:43:25 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?

I see that your Orthodox jurisdiction is "Europe".  I don't mean to be insulting at all, but is English your first language?  You certainly write it well enough, but I wonder if what you're experiencing is primarily a linguistic issue.
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 03:43:35 PM »

Wow. as I am trying to follow this back and forth, i can't help but wonder how a non-Christian, non-Theistic theologian, like a Bhuddist for example, could make heads or tails out of this thread.

As I said in my first post here "While Orthodox and Roman Catholics are united, for the most part, in their devotion to the Mother of God and their views on her salvific role are similar, albeit expressed in different terminology which often leads to unfortunate exaggerations based on misunderstanding those differing ways of using language."

This is a result of the human condition going back to man's vanity and the Tower of  Babel.

In Orthodoxy, there is a prescribed special hymn to the Birthgiver of God established for each Liturgical service - the Theotokia or Bohorodicen. Much allegorical terminology is set out in those prayers, most of which can be traced to the Patristric era of the Church undivided as a response to the Nestorian challenge of the fifth century. A link to wikipedia speaks to this in broad terms.

"Theotokion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokion

As we would say in the courts of law, this argument is bordering on a 'distinction without a difference.'
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 03:44:08 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Are you changing the topic of the thread, now?
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 03:44:59 PM »

Wow. as I am trying to follow this back and forth, i can't help but wonder how a non-Christian, non-Theistic theologian, like a Bhuddist for example, could make heads or tails out of this thread.

As I said in my first post here "While Orthodox and Roman Catholics are united, for the most part, in their devotion to the Mother of God and their views on her salvific role are similar, albeit expressed in different terminology which often leads to unfortunate exaggerations based on misunderstanding those differing ways of using language."

This is a result of the human condition going back to man's vanity and the Tower of  Babel.

In Orthodoxy, there is a prescribed special hymn to the Birthgiver of God established for each Liturgical service - the Theotokia or Bohorodicen. Much allegorical terminology is set out in those prayers, most of which can be traced to the Patristric era of the Church undivided as a response to the Nestorian challenge of the fifth century. A link to wikipedia speaks to this in broad terms.

"Theotokion" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokion

As we would say in the courts of law, this argument is bordering on a 'distinction without a difference.'

Indeed!!  Well put, counselor!
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 03:45:52 PM by J Michael » Logged

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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 03:46:51 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 04:06:37 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink


Yes, it's much easier to highlight our differences and throw those smoke bombs than to try to understand each other and resolve, where possible, those differences.
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"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 04:21:54 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink


Yes, it's much easier to highlight our differences and throw those smoke bombs than to try to understand each other and resolve, where possible, those differences.
As an Orthodox I will pose a question to think about to my fellow Orthodox. One of the great examples used to ridicule western scholasticism from the Middle Ages was the old story about Roman monks striving to determine the distinctions between angelic substance and essence by trying to ascertain just how many angels could be found on the tip of a pin. To the Orthodox mind such an exercise is either incomprehensible and foolish or downright dangerous. Yet, when our Roman Catholic brothers ask us a question using a common misunderstanding of Orthodox teaching on a subject where we share a common approach, rather than try to frame an answer based upon a broader, more 'eastern' analysis in which to frame the answer, we all too often fall into the trap of trying quantify differences and see how many of them we can use to confuse an otherwise simple discussion.

Are you so insecure in your understanding of our Faith that it is painful to acknowledge those things upon which we agree or are not in substantive disagreement?

The lawyers I know who espouse a 'take no prisoners' approach to conflict resolution so as not to appear weak are usually not successful in life or well respected by their colleagues.

All too often we confuse arguing with argument.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 04:24:17 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 04:59:31 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.

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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 05:03:34 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
To a certain degree, I think that this is all just a matter of playing word games.

That being said, yes, in a certain sense I am dependent on Mary in all things. It was through Mary that God became man. It was through her that Jesus assumed a human nature, by which he redeemed us. If there is no Mary, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no redemption, salvation, theosis, sacraments, church, priesthood, tradition, etc. etc. etc. So, yes, my entire spiritual life is dependent on Mary. Mary is not my savior, but she is the door through which salvation entered to the world and was made available to man.
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2012, 05:19:39 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.


 

Wow, an Orthodox evangelizing for Catholics?!?!  I wouldn't say that too loudly around *here*  Shocked Grin.

Papist explained it very well above--better than my feeble attempts, which you haven't addressed yet. 

When you introduced into this discussion the filioque, you were, indeed, changing the topic of the thread.  The filioque has been discussed on this board ad nauseum.  Just do a search for the word and I'm sure you'll have far more reading material than you ever bargained for.  I will not address it here, because it really isn't relevant to the title of this thread.  If you want to start (another  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes) new thread on the filioque, I guess no one's stopping you.

The answer to the question you posed is simple.  And it *has* been answered.  I'm not sure what still is unclear about it.

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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2012, 05:31:56 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

If you are trying to draw a significant distinction between traditional Roman Catholic Mariology and that of the Orthodox you are probably not going to convince any Protestant that any such a distinction upon which we expend much discussion between ourselves means anything from their point of view. (Not, of course, with those  RC's who push for dogmatizing 'Co-Redemptrix' but they have no sway with Pope Benedict.) Our disagreements over, say the Immaculate Conception, seen arcane to most Protestants in my own experience.

Sorry if I can't be of more help to you now that I understand what you are searching for.
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2012, 05:48:44 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.

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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2012, 06:00:41 PM »

I have seen on various Roman Catholic web sites that they pray "to Jesus, through Mary". Would Orthodox affirm the same or formulate this in the same way?

I am not trying to play word games. I appreciate where you are coming from after reading your last response. Without your providing a reference to a webpage using the language that 'they pray "to Jesus, through Mary"'  it is difficult to answer you directly. From our Orthodox point of view the phrasing could run from the innocuous (in the context of the FAQ which I previously linked here)  to the nearly heretical- from some of the extreme Marian cult-like sites.

I did provide a link above to such webpage. http://www.rosary-center.org/consecrt.htm

Are you comfortable with the idea that that we should "become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

I have seen nothing remotely similar to this in the Fathers. Please correct me if you have.



This is the first 2 paragraphs from the page you linked: "Consecration to the Mother of God," says Pope Pius XII, "is a total gift of self, for the whole of life and for all eternity; and a gift which is not a mere formality or sentimentality, but effectual, comprising the full intensity of the Christian life - Marian life." This consecration, the Pope explained, "tends essentially to union with Jesus, under the guidance of Mary."

By our consecration we promise to become dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary. And we do this with the greatest confidence. Since she is our mother, she knows our needs better than we; and since she is Queen of Heaven, she has immediate access to the infinite treasury of graces in the Kingdom of her Divine Son."


It's referring, I believe, to a formal act of consecration to the Theotokos, something which many Catholics do in a variety of contexts, but something which probably (this is a guess, here) *most* Catholics don't do.

I think the first paragraph, the quote from Pope Pius XII, explains it pretty well.  You may want to research further the whole phenomenon of "Consecration to Mary" by looking up St. Louis de Montfort, St. Maximilian Kolbe, Catherine de Hueck Doherty, for example.

Think, too, about what the actual words "consecrate" and "consecration" mean--to set apart, to associate with the sacred, etc., and maybe it will become clearer for you.  Here's a link: http://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=10&gs_id=bv&xhr=t&q=consecrate&pq=why+consecrate+to+mary&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=consecrate&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6134ab16fe89b6fc&biw=1024&bih=622

It is something that I have not seen in Orthodoxy so it may be un-Orthodox, but there is nothing un-orthodox about it.

I'm sure your wife, being part of Opus Dei, is more than familiar with the whole concept of consecration.
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2012, 06:15:37 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
To a certain degree, I think that this is all just a matter of playing word games.

That being said, yes, in a certain sense I am dependent on Mary in all things. It was through Mary that God became man. It was through her that Jesus assumed a human nature, by which he redeemed us. If there is no Mary, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no redemption, salvation, theosis, sacraments, church, priesthood, tradition, etc. etc. etc. So, yes, my entire spiritual life is dependent on Mary. Mary is not my savior, but she is the door through which salvation entered to the world and was made available to man.
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 06:21:10 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.


 

Wow, an Orthodox evangelizing for Catholics?!?!  I wouldn't say that too loudly around *here*  Shocked Grin

I even pray with them (Orthodox prayers, directly to God, I might add). Don't tell anyone or my days here could be numbered...
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2012, 06:24:57 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
To a certain degree, I think that this is all just a matter of playing word games.

That being said, yes, in a certain sense I am dependent on Mary in all things. It was through Mary that God became man. It was through her that Jesus assumed a human nature, by which he redeemed us. If there is no Mary, there is no incarnation. If there is no incarnation, there is no redemption, salvation, theosis, sacraments, church, priesthood, tradition, etc. etc. etc. So, yes, my entire spiritual life is dependent on Mary. Mary is not my savior, but she is the door through which salvation entered to the world and was made available to man.
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.

What does Papist's explanation obfuscate?  

When you take the phrase "dependent on Mary in all things" out of it's context, of course it's unclear.  If you put it back into context and delve for the meaning (see my post above), and look for understanding with an open mind, things do become clearer.  Sloppy understanding leads to confusion  Grin.

Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2012, 06:25:55 PM »

Quote
I, personally, am not aware that all Catholics always "channel" their prayers or interactions with Christ through the Theotokos.
I am sure that they all don't. However, some clearly seem to, as the quotes I cite suggest.

Quote
The idea of it is nonsensical. We do, however, frequently call on her to intercede with Him for us, in many and various ways.  That is all that's about, I think.
How do you interpret then the following: "dependent on Mary in all things: to offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary, and to seek every gift from God through Mary"?

Maybe it is just a question of sloppy language, but that sure does sound odd.

Anyway, I was really hoping to understand if this sort of language or conception of our relationship with God through Mary was popular also in Orthodox thought.
I'm not quite sure why this would sound strange to a person whose church prays, "theotokos save us". Can you explain this inconsistency?
Yes. As I explained above, I understand asking the Theotokos for intercessory prayer, just as one asks a friend to intercede. We can also ask our friends to pray for our salvation (and should). Whilst I would prefer if we prayed in English "rescue us", I am ok with "Theotokos save us" (well, just). Still, this is intercessory prayer.

But we do much more than just ask God for things. We praise Him, we thank Him, we worship Him, we confess sins to Him. By suggesting "to Jesus, through Mary", it seems like Catholics are channeling all these interactions we have with God through Mary.

Are you "dependent on Mary in all things"? Do you offer all your prayers to God through her? Do you confess through her? Do you praise God through her?
You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Is the phrase "and the son" such a molehill as well? Wink

Off topic here, you guys, to the question at hand!

Why does someone, either from Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, always have to jump to the essential differences between us rather than try to understand those issues upon which we share a similar understanding? Agreeing that one agrees with someone on some things does not equate to agreeing on all things. Smoke bombs are easy to throw, clearing the air is more difficult of a task. Wink

Look, if you are accusing me of underscoring differences unnecessarily, you are demonstrably wrong.  I have arguably much more at stake in Orthodox/Roman Catholic unity than most here, since I am Orthodox and my wife is Roman Catholic and a member of Opus Dei. Moreover, I work in my free time to help Roman Catholics carry out the New Evangelisation.

I think that sloppy language leads to sloppy understanding. So yes, this topic is related to other phrases used by Roman Catholics and not used in Holy Orthodoxy like the Filioque or the term "Co-Mediatrix". If Roman Catholics really mean that their whole relationship to God is mediated by the Theotokos, then the phrase "to Jesus through Mary" makes sense. Since posters here maintain that is not the case, I would argue that that phrase is therefore not very helpful. Certainly, I can attest as a former Evangelical, that some of the titles or phrases used by Roman Catholics to describe the Theotokos seem excessive, confusing and even offensive (that is, without a careful explanation).

In any case, question was really more for the Orthodox here, since I am trying to evangelise some Protestant friends who object to this wording.


 

Wow, an Orthodox evangelizing for Catholics?!?!  I wouldn't say that too loudly around *here*  Shocked Grin

I even pray with them (Orthodox prayers, directly to God, I might add). Don't tell anyone or my days here could be numbered...

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek!
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2012, 06:52:25 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2012, 12:19:56 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?

Sorry, you've lost me  Sad---which adage would that be?

I honestly do not have enough familiarity with "the Fathers" to know whether the notion you speak of is mentioned in their writings or not.  What I do "know", though, (because I've been told it by Orthodox priests and others) is that not everything in "the Fathers" is  believed everywhere.  That leads me to surmise, perhaps incorrectly I'm willing to admit, that there may be things that are universally believed that "the Fathers" may not have written about.  

Like I said, too, it may not be an "Orthodox" notion, but that doesn't make it un-orthodox---at least as far as Catholics are concerned.

As podkarpatska pointed out much more eloquently than I, we may just be having a discussion about linguistic differences and that it is actually, as he put it, a "distinction without a difference".
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« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2012, 12:30:34 PM »

I still do not get your point. You can pull lines out of context from Orthodox sources just as easily. Out of context, what do these sentences from St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy imply? Without context, or without a more complete text of the liturgy and without at least some foundational knowledge of Orthodox teaching you could be 'taken' apart by some Protestant polemecists.


From the First Antiphon:

Through the prayers of the (Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God), O Saviour, save us.

(I inserted the alternates of "Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God" as alternate translations interchange them, but they all refer to St. Mary, the Ever-Virgin, Birthgiver of God.)

From the Second Antiphon:

Through the prayers of Your Saints, O Saviour, save us!


But you went beyond your first, initially over-broad question to state:

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary"  and "But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers."


No one who is Orthodox would defend the excess of Marian devotion found on some of the web's more notorious Rosary or Co-redemtrix pages.However, there are certainly numerous pious Orthodox Christians who have a particularly keen reverence and love for the Theotokas and there are many pious Orthodox who have special reverence for other Saints. What is the problem?

Not that I have any particular expertise with respect to the 'Magesterium' of the Church of Rome, but I do not think that the above statement accurately reflects the teachings of the Roman Church on Mary.

Would one of our more learned Catholic posters care to comment?
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« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2012, 12:50:33 PM »

I still do not get your point. You can pull lines out of context from Orthodox sources just as easily. Out of context, what do these sentences from St. John Chrysostom's Liturgy imply? Without context, or without a more complete text of the liturgy and without at least some foundational knowledge of Orthodox teaching you could be 'taken' apart by some Protestant polemecists.


From the First Antiphon:

Through the prayers of the (Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God), O Saviour, save us.

(I inserted the alternates of "Theotokas/Birth-giver/Mother of God" as alternate translations interchange them, but they all refer to St. Mary, the Ever-Virgin, Birthgiver of God.)

From the Second Antiphon:

Through the prayers of Your Saints, O Saviour, save us!


But you went beyond your first, initially over-broad question to state:

I also do not see support from the Fathers that we should be "dependent on Mary" or "offer all our prayers and oblations to God through Mary"  and "But if there are Orthodox who essentially see our relationship with God as being channeled through the Theotokos, I wonder how they defend that from the Fathers."


No one who is Orthodox would defend the excess of Marian devotion found on some of the web's more notorious Rosary or Co-redemtrix pages.However, there are certainly numerous pious Orthodox Christians who have a particularly keen reverence and love for the Theotokas and there are many pious Orthodox who have special reverence for other Saints. What is the problem?

Not that I have any particular expertise with respect to the 'Magesterium' of the Church of Rome, but I do not think that the above statement accurately reflects the teachings of the Roman Church on Mary.

Would one of our more learned Catholic posters care to comment?

Yes, he seems to be taking one phrase/notion from one web-site and using it, out of context as you say,  to represent the whole of Catholic teaching and practice on the Theotokos--which it does not.

For anyone who's interested and has the time you may want to *start* here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_papal_encyclicals_and_Apostolic_Letters, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariology_of_the_popes

I went to wikipedia not because it is always exhaustive and always correct, but as a place where much of this info is compiled and easy to access.

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« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2012, 01:25:32 PM »

Quote
With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
Quote
Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
That's interesting, because Palamas took the essence/engeries distinction to places that the Fathers never did, and he underscored the hesychast spirituality in a way the Fathers never did. Yet you seem to be fine with that.
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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2012, 01:27:54 PM »

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With all due respect, I think this is obfuscatory. Would you say that you are dependent on your mother for all things? In a sense, it is true that you wouldn't exist if it weren't for your mother. But would you say you are (present tense) dependent on your mother for all things? If you said that to someone on the street, they would say that is odd if you are a grown up. Sloppy language leads to sloppy understandings.

Can you find the notion that we are "dependent on Mary in all things" in the Fathers? I haven't seen it and I therefore doubt that it is an Orthodox notion.
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Just because that phrase is not in "the Fathers" (many phrases are not, btw), doesn't invalidate it.  You're not going all "Sola Patristica" on us, are you  angel?

The wording is Catholic.  It is not Orthodox.  It is not un-orthodox.  Get it?
I wrote "notion", not "phrase".

And, yes, I do sort of like to embrace only that which was believed everywhere, always by everybody. Isn't St. Vincent de Lerins' adage a good standard of orthodoxy?
When the Fathers defined that Mary was the Theotokos, they affirmed our dependency on her. When they characterized her as the New Eve, who untied the knot that the original Eve had bound, they affirmed our dependence on her. I really am having trouble understanding your objection here. To me, it seems like you are simply smuggling your protestantism into Eastern Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2012, 01:41:21 PM »

Not all our prayers are directed to Jesus through Mary.
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Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
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