Organs in Orthodox?

[Delphine]

Did you see my post on the Apostles' Creed? It's shorter because it's older. The Nicene Creed was made to combat later heresies.

I was surprised to read this since it is not my understanding, that dates the Apostle's Creed to the 6th-7th century. Unless something has changed, the wikipedia article on this is less informative than the Catholic Encyclopedia:  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm.

Not a big deal in my opinion but it is something to consider.

Thanks, Opus. You're right, the Apostles' Creed in its modern form doesn't seem to have shown up until the 5th-7th century. I find their section on the Old Roman Creed as quoted by Tertullian around 200 AD incredibly interesting, though--it's almost all there!

I wish there was more information on how exactly all of the phrases came together.

[augustin717]

Byzantine chant is annoying and tedious; Znamenny less so, but the really good stuff was written by a bunch of 19th-20th century

I don't find byzantine music annoying or tedious.

[yeshuaisiam]

I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of
heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of
God, begotten of the Father before all ages;

Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten,
not created, of one essence with the Father
through Whom all things were made.

Who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven and was incarnate
of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became man.

He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate,
and suffered and was buried;

And He rose on the third day,
according to the Scriptures.

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father;

And He will come again with glory to judge the living
and dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,
Who proceeds from the Father, Who together with the
Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who
spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the age to come.

Amen.  http://www.goarch.org/chapel/liturgical_texts/creed
The one I am used to using in an Orthodox church is above


Here is the Roman catholic english version
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.   http://www.liturgytools.net/2011/07/nicean-creed-icel-2010.html

This is NOT close to what I heard.  The one I heard was 10 lines long and seriously revised.  Fully Roman Catholic.

Did you see my post on the Apostles' Creed? It's shorter because it's older. The Nicene Creed was made to combat later heresies.

Here's a site with some of the changes that I heard, but it was VERY revised from this.

http://www.divinesacredheart.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=192&Itemid=89

When we consider a good chunk of the Great Schism was over the creed, this is serious stuff... Anyway, not much to do with organs in orthodox.

The Catholic Church in the United States has been using the New Roman Missal translation (second column) in the Mass since this past Advent. It's an English translation that's truer to the Latin than what was previously used, and also seems closer to the Creed as recited by the OCA parish that I attend. But again, you most likely heard the Apostles' Creed at the start of the rosary, which is a completely different thing.

I didn't hear either at the Rosary.  Like I said it was very twisted up.  I could follow the Apostles creed or Nicene.  This I could not follow.  It was much shorter than either Apostles or Nicene and started with "I believe".  It started as both of the creeds, but was incredibly short and the wording was very funky.

Anyway, despite it not being either creed, I think it is strange that RC's say two different creeds.   Not the point of the thread though.

Fact is we have organs and not A Capella in Orthodoxy now. 

[yeshuaisiam]

I've been to many services over the years, including Roman Catholic ones, and they were all dead and empty compared to the Orthodox.

How many years have you been able to go to many services?

My whole life, as a Protestant, there isn't a problem attending other services.
While they felt alive back then, now when I go back, they are absolutely dead, I see them for as they are. That is what happens to your worship when you fall to heresy.

Or when you let your triumphalistic subjectivity cloud your judgment. The first time I went to a Lutheran service, I thought it was dead because of its liturgical ritual, and this was years before I became Orthodox. Now I worship in a church whose worship is even more liturgical, and I think it very alive. As such, I've come to recognize the beauty of Lutheran liturgical worship.

Is it anything like the RC Novus Ordo as typically celebrated in the USA? (I really hope not)

I don't know that it's safe for me to even make a comparison.

All I can say is I went to a RC rosary for a sort of distant family member a couple weeks ago, and I'll tell ya, when they recited the creed, it is FAR BEYOND the filioque.  It was so distorted, so twisted up...

That's because the Nicene Creed isn't prayed at the start of the Rosary. The Apostles' Creed is prayed:

    I believe in God,
    the Father almighty,
    Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontius Pilate,
    was crucified, died and was buried;
    he descended into hell;
    on the third day he rose again from the dead;
    he ascended into heaven,
    and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
    from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting. Amen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles_Creed

I thought maybe yeshuaisiam was going to say it was the Freemason's creed har har har
How could I have forgotten it is the Apostle's Creed?

Of course, what I heard was neither Apostles or Nicene... Sad thing is about your joke, my other thread has links to EO bishops involved in Masonry.  I could only guess that if EO bishops are involved in it, then RC being so much larger, probably has bishops & clergy involved as well.

Anyway, I don't know what I heard.  It started with "I believe" it was probably 6-7 sentences long.  Resembled both creeds but was extremely funky & twisted up.   I don't know if its part of their "new mass" stuck in the Rosary or what.

Anyway, uhm, organs in Orthodoxy!  Are we surprised to see the church implement the "modern" instrument into worship?  Considering the filioque "and the son", gave a good chunk of reason for a tremendous schism.   But to put organs behind the A Capella is acceptable?

[biro]

The 'New Mass,' whatever that is, has nothing to do with the Rosary. The Rosary is not part of the Order of Mass.

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