Author Topic: Organs in Orthodox?  (Read 32474 times)

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Offline Salpy

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2012, 04:07:13 AM »
Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians.

You mean like these EO's?

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_27/Songs_of_Freedom.pdf
I stand by my statement, Rastafarians are heretics, just like Nestorians, Arians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

EO and OO are Orthodox, Rastafarians are neither, and aren't even Christians. To be a Christian you must adhere to the beliefs set forth by the apostolic fathers, and shown forth in the Creed.

Do you really believe that all Rastas have identical beliefs?  The Rastas on this board have explained ad nauseam how not all Rastas worship HIM. 

Do you really believe the Serbian priest in the article I linked above was in error to bring that couple into Orthodoxy?  Do you really think, after reading their interview, that they are heretics?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2012, 11:15:49 AM »
Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians.

You mean like these EO's?

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_27/Songs_of_Freedom.pdf
I stand by my statement, Rastafarians are heretics, just like Nestorians, Arians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

EO and OO are Orthodox, Rastafarians are neither, and aren't even Christians. To be a Christian you must adhere to the beliefs set forth by the apostolic fathers, and shown forth in the Creed.

Do you really believe that all Rastas have identical beliefs?  The Rastas on this board have explained ad nauseam how not all Rastas worship HIM. 

Do you really believe the Serbian priest in the article I linked above was in error to bring that couple into Orthodoxy?  Do you really think, after reading their interview, that they are heretics?

Protestants and Roman Catholics are in heresy as well, if they become Orthodox, they are no longer of their own denomination or beliefs...

Worshipping HIM is apostasy, smoking marijuana is a sin, and just being a vegan and living simply and growing things at home, etc... Doesn't make you a Rasta...

Offline Salpy

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2012, 12:13:21 PM »

Do you really believe that all Rastas have identical beliefs?  The Rastas on this board have explained ad nauseam how not all Rastas worship HIM. 

Do you really believe the Serbian priest in the article I linked above was in error to bring that couple into Orthodoxy?  Do you really think, after reading their interview, that they are heretics?

Protestants and Roman Catholics are in heresy as well, if they become Orthodox, they are no longer of their own denomination or beliefs...


I'm not sure that Protestantism and Catholicism are good analogies to Rastafari.


Quote
Worshipping HIM is apostasy, smoking marijuana is a sin, and just being a vegan and living simply and growing things at home, etc... Doesn't make you a Rasta...

And we know that many Rastas do not worship HIM.  To continue to accuse them of that when they have specifically disavowed it is disingenuous.  The Serbian Orthodox couple in the article clearly don't worship anyone except the Holy Trinity.  The same can be said for Gebre and Habte.  Yet you continue to accuse them of something they don't do.  That robs you of credibility.  If you want to say that Rastas can't ever be Orthodox Christians, that's fine as long as you can make your argument based upon real facts, not a straw man.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2012, 12:56:56 PM »
For myself, as I am one of those who is uncomfortable with this idea of Rastafarian Orthodox, what gets me is not that they might worship HIM (I know that no one who is Orthodox would do so), but the associated cultural baggage that is brought into the church as a result of incorporating or attempting to incorporate a racialist, ahistorical pseudo-spirituality into Orthodoxy, where it is foreign. Attempts to legitimize Rastafarianism within the Church are bad for basically the same reasons that it would be bad to try to set up a Beatnik Orthodox faction, or a Punk Rock Orthodox faction, or whatever, within the Church. The Church is not a battleground for your identity politics, no matter what they are, and especially since Rastafarianism has this spiritual and political component built into it, it blurs lines that ought not be blurred. How much bandwith has been spent here trying to disentangle the continued use of phrases like "JAH RASTAFARI" by those of us here who claim both Orthodox and Rastafarian identities? In Orthodoxy, is Ras Tafari considered to be Jah? Of course not, yet they still use it and give its own flavor in an attempt to make it acceptable.

It does not seem to me as though it can be acceptable, and as I've written before, God-willing Rastafarianism will never be acceptable within the church. It is a foreign ideology, invented nearly two centuries after our Lord Christ walked the earth and disciples of his disciples and apostles brought the holy and perfect faith to Ethiopia. It ought to have no relation whatsoever to anything Orthodox but that some have been brought out of it into Orthodoxy. (That's the key, the "out of it" part...)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 01:04:08 PM by dzheremi »

Offline Salpy

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2012, 01:32:54 PM »
I recall a while back that in the EO Church there was something of a "punks to monks" movement.  (Someone correct me if I got the name wrong.)  It involved, among other things, the publication of a magazine called Death to the World.  I think it was controversial, with some people strongly criticizing it.  And yet from what I understand it did bring some street kids into the Orthodox Church.

I agree that the Church should not become a "Punk Orthodox Church," or a "Rastafari Orthodox Church."  However, there have been clergy in both the OO and EO Churches who have evangelized, and won over to Christ, people from these movements, when most persons out there would rather reject them outright.  I think this is admirable.  The angels rejoice over the salvation of a sinner, regardless of his subculture.  The question then becomes whether these converts should be forced to completely abandon the subculture they came from.  I think the clergy who have evangelized them realized that this would be too heavy a burden and did not require it, as long as the converts abandoned beliefs that were heretical and replaced them with Orthodox faith.  I don't see what is wrong with this, as long as the cultural aspects that are retained are not inconsistent with Orthodoxy. 

 


Offline biro

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2012, 02:14:37 PM »
It went away because they were making a show out of themselves- using shock value tactics while pretending to mock the same.

People would be attracted to those 'Death to the World' shirts because they looked like the cover of a black metal album. It has skulls! Cool!

Come on, already. People liked it because they thought it was a sick joke about killing everybody in the world. Not the best Christian advertising I can think of.
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2012, 02:18:30 PM »
^ I had no idea that was what became of it.   :o

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2012, 02:50:02 PM »
I agree that the Church should not become a "Punk Orthodox Church," or a "Rastafari Orthodox Church."  However, there have been clergy in both the OO and EO Churches who have evangelized, and won over to Christ, people from these movements, when most persons out there would rather reject them outright.  I think this is admirable.  The angels rejoice over the salvation of a sinner, regardless of his subculture.  The question then becomes whether these converts should be forced to completely abandon the subculture they came from.  I think the clergy who have evangelized them realized that this would be too heavy a burden and did not require it, as long as the converts abandoned beliefs that were heretical and replaced them with Orthodox faith.  I don't see what is wrong with this, as long as the cultural aspects that are retained are not inconsistent with Orthodoxy.

I'll let biro's comment make short work of that "punks to monks" thing (though as someone who spent their teenage years in that whole scene, I must say I find this idea incredibly dumb), and deal with what you've written here by agreeing and saying that the key is in jettisoning what is incompatible with Orthodoxy. So I do not for a minute seek criticize those who do the important work evangelizing people from every culture and subculture. I think that's great. I just worry, from the interactions I've had with some of the Rastafarians on this board, that the residual effect of having come to the Church through these movements is not so much a discarding of what may be incompatible, but a re-imagining of what is actually incompatible as somehow being compatible (e.g., the "Jah Rastafari" example above).

I say like the music, be inspired by it or by ideals it has made you think about or whatever, but just leave it outside of the Church. Don't try to make "Rastafarian Orthodox" or "Harry Potter Orthodox" or "British Scooter Enthusiast Orthodox" (yeah, I suck and am really running out ideas), or whatever your THING is into distinct movements to be blessed by Orthodoxy.  They're not. The Church is the ark of salvation in a world full of such worthless pleasures, not a fast track to realizing some Caribbean's idea of Ethiopia, or some punk kid's newest fashionable rebellion against the mainstream (not that Orthodoxy isn't very much against the dominant ethos...), or some other glorified social club for people who have similar political ideas, musical tastes, hairstyles, etc. None of that belongs in the Church, where there is neither Rasta nor Greek.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 02:50:20 PM by dzheremi »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2012, 03:04:07 PM »
Long past-due self-edit (too late to change it via the "modify" button): In the response previous to the most recent, I accidentally wrote "invented nearly two centuries" when I meant "nearly two millennia". A pretty big difference. I know anyone reading would understand what I meant, but honestly these kinds of mistakes do still bother me.  :-[

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2012, 03:11:38 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Can someone please explain to me how this thread has devolved into a debate about Rastafari when the OP is about organs in the Church?

Further, why are folks so dismissive of the Orthodox punx?

Oi Oi! Up the punx if the punx are united we can never be divided boneheadz out out of punk!!

Many folks have a problem with disregarding or dismissive cultures which they don't understand. I come from both backgrounds, Rastafari within the Orthodox Church AND punks from the Orthodox Church, and I can tell you personally its not fair to judge these cultures so harshly as if we were heretics.  I don't recall mohawks OR dreadlocks being forbidden by any Canons ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Online NicholasMyra

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2012, 03:18:46 PM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:21:40 PM by NicholasMyra »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »
Way to totally miss the point/confirm me in my skepticism, Habte. Now quit talking as though I'm dismissing people out of hand when I also mentioned that the whole punk rock thing is part of my background, too. Neither of us are the arbiters of what is acceptable canonically or what have you, but to me that is all the more reason not to mix whatever you're into with the church. God doesn't care about your record collection. I guarantee you that if I were to show up to St. Bishoy's in two weeks with a big green mohawk and combat boots and studded leather I would not only look stupid, they would most certainly have a problem with it, and I would be very harshly disciplined (and rightly so!) for telling them "I don't recall mohawks OR dreads being forbidden by any canons".

For the record, I wrote my initial response about Rastafarianism because Salpy rightly reminded Devin that not all people claiming Rastafarianism worship HIM as God. I wanted to show that there are other reasons to be uncomfortable with the association of Rastafarianism with Orthodoxy.

Offline biro

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2012, 03:25:46 PM »
I guess I've gotten used to the organ accompanying the choir at my parish. I always get surprised whenever the organ player is on vacation and you notice it because the priest has to chant the opening blessing with no accompaniment.  :-[
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2012, 03:34:24 PM »
Way to totally miss the point/confirm me in my skepticism, Habte. Now quit talking as though I'm dismissing people out of hand when I also mentioned that the whole punk rock thing is part of my background, too. Neither of us are the arbiters of what is acceptable canonically or what have you, but to me that is all the more reason not to mix whatever you're into with the church. God doesn't care about your record collection. I guarantee you that if I were to show up to St. Bishoy's in two weeks with a big green mohawk and combat boots and studded leather I would not only look stupid, they would most certainly have a problem with it, and I would be very harshly disciplined (and rightly so!) for telling them "I don't recall mohawks OR dreads being forbidden by any canons".

For the record, I wrote my initial response about Rastafarianism because Salpy rightly reminded Devin that not all people claiming Rastafarianism worship HIM as God. I wanted to show that there are other reasons to be uncomfortable with the association of Rastafarianism with Orthodoxy.

I think you're the one missing the point- sure, if you, being who you are now were to show up with a green mohawk, your parish would rightly suspect you were doing it for attention or to push the boundaries of what they think is acceptable. The question is, should you have been ostracized if you were to show up as you had been then? Should growing out the hair on the sides of your head to match the strip on top and dying your hair back to its normal color be the standard for acceptance by the parish or even part of the rules for converting?

BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:35:04 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »
Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2012, 03:36:11 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Can someone please explain to me how this thread has devolved into a debate about Rastafari when the OP is about organs in the Church?

Further, why are folks so dismissive of the Orthodox punx?

Oi Oi! Up the punx if the punx are united we can never be divided boneheadz out out of punk!!

Many folks have a problem with disregarding or dismissive cultures which they don't understand. I come from both backgrounds, Rastafari within the Orthodox Church AND punks from the Orthodox Church, and I can tell you personally its not fair to judge these cultures so harshly as if we were heretics.  I don't recall mohawks OR dreadlocks being forbidden by any Canons ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Habte--as an old guy, I detest (abhor, dislike, etc...) punk, rap, modern day R&B. I guess  there is a generational and perhaps cultural divide here. I just wanted yo know how I feel. BTW, since I have shied away from the three genres that I mentioned above, I am also somewhat ignorant of them. For example, it seems to me that Bob Marley's music was none of them; he was reggae, right?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2012, 03:36:45 PM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:39:23 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2012, 03:39:20 PM »
Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Are you the definer of what is or is not "Rasta"? "You regard"- I did not realize we had Noah Webster posting.

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either?
Oh, I get. You're Moses, fresh from the mountaintop!
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #108 on: February 11, 2012, 03:39:55 PM »
Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Are you the definer of what is or is not "Rasta"? "You regard"- I did not realize we had Noah Webster posting.

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either?
Oh, I get. You're Moses, fresh from the mountaintop!

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff

Use your brain and your (hopefully) built in Orthodox common sense. Even people from the "old country" recognize that smoking is sinful! Don't try to destroy Orthodox morality with your disgusting liberal views.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 03:41:19 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline Golgotha

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #109 on: February 11, 2012, 03:43:51 PM »
It went away because they were making a show out of themselves- using shock value tactics while pretending to mock the same.

People would be attracted to those 'Death to the World' shirts because they looked like the cover of a black metal album. It has skulls! Cool!

Come on, already. People liked it because they thought it was a sick joke about killing everybody in the world. Not the best Christian advertising I can think of.

Actually it's back. I love the shirts and I would say I connect with the movement. I am a metalhead so that's probably why.  ;)

I do wish it had a less harsh name. Some of their shirts do have quotations that explain what the phrase means.


Offline biro

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #110 on: February 11, 2012, 03:46:10 PM »
Okay, then.  :)
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #111 on: February 11, 2012, 03:46:28 PM »
Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Are you the definer of what is or is not "Rasta"? "You regard"- I did not realize we had Noah Webster posting.

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either?
Oh, I get. You're Moses, fresh from the mountaintop!

and....

http://www.healthyyouth.com/Resources/hookahs.html

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #112 on: February 11, 2012, 03:47:22 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It went away because they were making a show out of themselves- using shock value tactics while pretending to mock the same.

People would be attracted to those 'Death to the World' shirts because they looked like the cover of a black metal album. It has skulls! Cool!

Come on, already. People liked it because they thought it was a sick joke about killing everybody in the world. Not the best Christian advertising I can think of.

Actually it's back. I love the shirts and I would say I connect with the movement. I am a metalhead so that's probably why.  ;)

I do wish it had a less harsh name. Some of their shirts do have quotations that explain what the phrase means.




http://www.deathtotheworld.com/seraphimrose/index.html

Yes their not only back, we never left ;)

but this is all I can digress, if organs catch this much flack in the Church I hardly think crusty distorted guitars and blast beats will be any more welcome ;)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10

Offline biro

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #113 on: February 11, 2012, 03:51:56 PM »
It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. :)
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2012, 03:54:44 PM »
It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. :)

Something like that could be done in a parish hall but never ever in the church itself.

Offline biro

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2012, 03:56:12 PM »
Of course, that's what I would do.
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2012, 04:00:11 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote from: biro link=topic=42926.msg708355#msg708355date=1328989916
It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. :)

I am so glad that parish has had success with that, praise God!

That is EXACTLY the kind of things I have been slowly working towards in our parish for our youth program.  My priest first brought the potentiality and intent of such to my attention 3 years ago and we together have slowly been networking and building a consensus, and perhaps in God's Grace it might happen in connection with the consecration and opening of our new parish building in a couple of months :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Offline Golgotha

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #117 on: February 11, 2012, 05:01:01 PM »
It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. :)
I hear ya Habte!  :)

That's really cool. Yeah never in a temple, but maybe if a couple parishes got together and put a music festival together, kinda like a Greek festival but with bands.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 05:04:00 PM by Golgotha »

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2012, 05:15:05 PM »
I think you're the one missing the point- sure, if you, being who you are now were to show up with a green mohawk, your parish would rightly suspect you were doing it for attention or to push the boundaries of what they think is acceptable. The question is, should you have been ostracized if you were to show up as you had been then? Should growing out the hair on the sides of your head to match the strip on top and dying your hair back to its normal color be the standard for acceptance by the parish or even part of the rules for converting?

If you're going to make a distinction between me doing it now to be shocking and me doing it then in order to make the point that people shouldn't have to conform to certain standards, then why shouldn't I do it now? Because, as I wrote earlier, the church is NOT the place for it. It is not the place for plumage and subcultural/non-Orthodox identity markers and all that. Of course kids coming in off the street who don't know any better should be treated differently precisely because they don't know any better, but if you've been to enough services to notice that the liturgy is not a punk rock show, then maybe, just maybe, it is not crazy to expect that you start comporting yourself in a way that shows respect for the norms of the community. It's not about making any particular look or whatever the litmus test of true faith, it's about the interior change in the believer that makes them put aside what they are comfortable with in order to better follow Christ. To take off the old man and put on the new and superior one, as a line from the midnight praises puts it. If you can do that without taking off your leather jacket, more power to you, but I personally don't think it's healthy to maintain that kind of attachment to the fashions of the world such that they bleed into your relation to the faith and the Church, whether in thought or in dress or in any other way. (And believe me, I've gotten into enough arguments I didn't really want to have with the local Copts over the inevitable political whine-fest that descends over the Agape meal to know how I'm in the extreme minority here, but so be it. The Church is not about whether you like or hate a politician, or a certain kind of music, or an Ethiopian emperor, or any of that. We have to deal with that kind of petty nonsense all the time outside of the Church, so I don't think it's an extreme position to not want it to be in the Church just as the vast majority of people in this thread have voiced displeasure at the encroachment of musical instruments from the outside being accepted into the Church.)

Quote
BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Really? We're really going here? Sorry, I'm not in high school anymore, so these kinds of "you're not punk" taunts just sound ridiculous to me, especially in the context of this board. To tell the truth, I didn't have that kind of haircut back then, and that sort of thing always struck me as posturing. As one of my favorite bands from those days put it (still love 'em, too, and  they were led by a high school English teacher in a suit...how un-punk!): Ja sam panker u sakou starom...not some silly bondage pants just because that's some kid's idea of what "punk" is.

Plus, it'd be hard to prostrate with spiky hair. :D
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 05:15:56 PM by dzheremi »

Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2012, 05:19:08 PM »
If you're going to make a distinction between me doing it now to be shocking and me doing it then in order to make the point that people shouldn't have to conform to certain standards, then why shouldn't I do it now? Because, as I wrote earlier, the church is NOT the place for it. It is not the place for plumage and subcultural/non-Orthodox identity markers and all that. Of course kids coming in off the street who don't know any better should be treated differently precisely because they don't know any better, but if you've been to enough services to notice that the liturgy is not a punk rock show, then maybe, just maybe, it is not crazy to expect that you start comporting yourself in a way that shows respect for the norms of the community. It's not about making any particular look or whatever the litmus test of true faith, it's about the interior change in the believer that makes them put aside what they are comfortable with in order to better follow Christ. To take off the old man and put on the new and superior one, as a line from the midnight praises puts it. If you can do that without taking off your leather jacket, more power to you, but I personally don't think it's healthy to maintain that kind of attachment to the fashions of the world such that they bleed into your relation to the faith and the Church, whether in thought or in dress or in any other way. (And believe me, I've gotten into enough arguments I didn't really want to have with the local Copts over the inevitable political whine-fest that descends over the Agape meal to know how I'm in the extreme minority here, but so be it. The Church is not about whether you like or hate a politician, or a certain kind of music, or an Ethiopian emperor, or any of that. We have to deal with that kind of petty nonsense all the time outside of the Church, so I don't think it's an extreme position to not want it to be in the Church just as the vast majority of people in this thread have voiced displeasure at the encroachment of musical instruments from the outside being accepted into the Church.)

There is no way in hell I will ever take to dressing like the Greeks -- norms of the community be damned.
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #120 on: February 11, 2012, 05:56:47 PM »
Ugh. I see I am not expressing myself clearly. I will try it again.

The liturgy is not a punk rock show or a hippie drum circle or a fun-run or any of that stuff. It is NOT about what you wear (so, no, I'm not advocating not allowing people in church if they are/aren't dressed a certain way), but it is about letting go of the things of the world. Again, if you can do that in your leather jacket or big...uh...Rastafarian hat (you know, this number), then go right ahead, but that will not change the fact that the Church is a place to worship God, not to be identified as punks, or rastas, or whatevers. Indeed, God made all of these people, and while He didn't make me specifically to love the Clash, I sure do, and I thank Him for that enjoyment. But that doesn't mean that my subcultural identity amounts to a hill of beans. These things of the world do not belong in the Church. That's all.

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2012, 07:43:27 PM »
I think you're the one missing the point- sure, if you, being who you are now were to show up with a green mohawk, your parish would rightly suspect you were doing it for attention or to push the boundaries of what they think is acceptable. The question is, should you have been ostracized if you were to show up as you had been then? Should growing out the hair on the sides of your head to match the strip on top and dying your hair back to its normal color be the standard for acceptance by the parish or even part of the rules for converting?

If you're going to make a distinction between me doing it now to be shocking and me doing it then in order to make the point that people shouldn't have to conform to certain standards, then why shouldn't I do it now?
Actually, I was referring to you "coming in off the street". You know, like a Rasta would most likely have dreadlocks. I don't know about you, but I more often dressed the way I dressed because I liked the way it looked and not to "make a statement". Make a statement dress was for hippies.
Quote
Because, as I wrote earlier, the church is NOT the place for it. It is not the place for plumage and subcultural/non-Orthodox identity markers and all that. Of course kids coming in off the street who don't know any better should be treated differently precisely because they don't know any better, but if you've been to enough services to notice that the liturgy is not a punk rock show, then maybe, just maybe, it is not crazy to expect that you start comporting yourself in a way that shows respect for the norms of the community.
It depends, of course, upon why the "norms" of the community are the "norms" of the community. Are people dressing nicer to honor God or to keep a good reputation in the Ethnic Country Club Orthodox Church? I've seen more than a few of the latter parishes that would benefit greatly from a few punks and Rastas (or monks!) in attendance.

Quote
It's not about making any particular look or whatever the litmus test of true faith, it's about the interior change in the believer that makes them put aside what they are comfortable with in order to better follow Christ.
As long as that's the reason, perfect. FWIW, I don't have a 12" mohawk anymore and the bondage pants are in the back of the closet somewhere. Nobody demanded these things of me, Church just naturally became more important than punk. That said, I wouldn't pressure any of my old friends to dress better if they were going to the parish with me.

Quote
To take off the old man and put on the new and superior one, as a line from the midnight praises puts it. If you can do that without taking off your leather jacket, more power to you, but I personally don't think it's healthy to maintain that kind of attachment to the fashions of the world such that they bleed into your relation to the faith and the Church, whether in thought or in dress or in any other way. (And believe me, I've gotten into enough arguments I didn't really want to have with the local Copts over the inevitable political whine-fest that descends over the Agape meal to know how I'm in the extreme minority here, but so be it. The Church is not about whether you like or hate a politician, or a certain kind of music, or an Ethiopian emperor, or any of that. We have to deal with that kind of petty nonsense all the time outside of the Church, so I don't think it's an extreme position to not want it to be in the Church just as the vast majority of people in this thread have voiced displeasure at the encroachment of musical instruments from the outside being accepted into the Church.)
Pretty much in complete agreement with you here.

BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Really? We're really going here? Sorry, I'm not in high school anymore, so these kinds of "you're not punk" taunts just sound ridiculous to me, especially in the context of this board.
Less about "you're not punk" and more about- well, let's put it like this, we've got a few members of the board who used to be hippies back in the sixties. Now, I'm sure the ones who were hippies just because that was the thing to do probably do think they looked pretty stupid with the whole tie-dye, semi-Native-American, long hair look. Those who believed in the ideals of the community, had good friends, and fond memories of the movement, on the other hand, probably still think the look was kind of awesome, even if it doesn't fit with who they are today.

However, if the punks you hung with didn't dress like "hardcore (the genre, not a definition of level of devotion) punks", that is also understandable- punk being as diverse as it is.

Quote
To tell the truth, I didn't have that kind of haircut back then, and that sort of thing always struck me as posturing.
Yeah, I did that before my last punk-look hurrah. Went from mohawked punk in the South where there wasn't a scene to semi-hippy Joey Ramone look when I moved to Chicago and was disgusted by the punk-fashion-show that went on in the clubs. Then realized that dressing in any way as a form of protest was just as lame as dressing a certain way to conform and that I really liked having a kick-a mohawk- and would start balding in about 10 years, so have fun now.

Quote
As one of my favorite bands from those days put it (still love 'em, too, and  they were led by a high school English teacher in a suit...how un-punk!): Ja sam panker u sakou starom...
Translation? Google does not recognize the language.
Quote
not some silly bondage pants just because that's some kid's idea of what "punk" is.
Again, you don't wear bondage pants because they're "punk". You wear bondage pants because they're awesome (unless we're talking the Hot-topic goth-emo style of bondage pants)- and scare homophobic red-necks.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 07:44:50 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline witega

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2012, 07:49:01 PM »
BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Not to detract from dzheremi's point, which I agree with, but there's also a simple issue of how removed in time you are from that look. I also still think that I looked very cool with post-punk/early-goth hair, earrings, and thrift-store stylings I wore in the late eighties--but I think if I tried to dress that way now, in my forties, I'd look like a complete idiot. And I'm pretty sure my 18-year old self would have thought the same thing.
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2012, 07:56:57 PM »
BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Not to detract from dzheremi's point, which I agree with, but there's also a simple issue of how removed in time you are from that look. I also still think that I looked very cool with post-punk/early-goth hair, earrings, and thrift-store stylings I wore in the late eighties--but I think if I tried to dress that way now, in my forties, I'd look like a complete idiot. And I'm pretty sure my 18-year old self would have thought the same thing.

Oh, definitely. The punk look should be retired at 30, unless your name is Johnny Rotten. The only thing I still wear from those days is my leather jacket (and even that only when the temperature drops, not an all too often occurrence in Miami) , which is just a classic, all-American style. However, when I see a punk kid I don't think "That kid looks stupid" I think "It's nice to know some things are still around."

However, that said, some things should remain dead- in my early adolescent scare-the-redneck days it was cool to dress like Kriss-Kross. I really hope the wearing-your-clothes-backwards thing never, ever comes back.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 08:07:44 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #124 on: February 11, 2012, 08:27:22 PM »
Actually, I was referring to you "coming in off the street". You know, like a Rasta would most likely have dreadlocks. I don't know about you, but I more often dressed the way I dressed because I liked the way it looked and not to "make a statement". Make a statement dress was for hippies.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, my friend. Punks are mostly just hippies with slightly different drug habits.

Quote
It depends, of course, upon why the "norms" of the community are the "norms" of the community. Are people dressing nicer to honor God or to keep a good reputation in the Ethnic Country Club Orthodox Church? I've seen more than a few of the latter parishes that would benefit greatly from a few punks and Rastas (or monks!) in attendance.

I'm not sure what you mean with that last statement.

Quote
As long as that's the reason, perfect. FWIW, I don't have a 12" mohawk anymore and the bondage pants are in the back of the closet somewhere. Nobody demanded these things of me, Church just naturally became more important than punk. That said, I wouldn't pressure any of my old friends to dress better if they were going to the parish with me.

"Church just naturally became more important than punk" - excellent. As far pressuring anybody...well, it's never good to pressure anyone, and always beneficial to the curious that they be allowed to come as they are (if they haven't made a commitment, why potentially scare them off?). At the same time, I would think that most people do have a sense that going to church does entail, if not a particular level of formal dress, at least an attempt to dress as you might when visiting non-whatever you are relatives, or your boss, or something of that level. And if they don't, then I don't think it's "pressure" to tell them that gently, especially if you invite them. I mean, you want them to get something out of it other than "all of those strange people stared at me", don't you? (In my experience as the white guy in the Coptic Church, I don't think anyone would actually do that, but I also know from personal experience that if it is not what you are used to, you'll feel that way anyway, so there's no need to add to it by increasing the "fish out of water" feeling by not trying to prepare your friends as best as you can. There is a happy medium, and it doesn't require anyone buy a new suit or whatever. I wear the same outfit now that I wrote to the hundreds of RC masses I attended, and no one thinks it odd.)

Quote
Less about "you're not punk" and more about- well, let's put it like this, we've got a few members of the board who used to be hippies back in the sixties. Now, I'm sure the ones who were hippies just because that was the thing to do probably do think they looked pretty stupid with the whole tie-dye, semi-Native-American, long hair look. Those who believed in the ideals of the community, had good friends, and fond memories of the movement, on the other hand, probably still think the look was kind of awesome, even if it doesn't fit with who they are today.

I suppose I don't go in for the "ideals" bit of the musical subculture because by now I'm old and bitter, but really even back then, as a teenager...like I wrote, you can be inspired by the music and what it presents you, that's really great, but in the end it's still music. I think it is silly to be the "we mean it, maaaaan" guy. Who's to say that those people who you look at and think are just dressing the part don't also really mean it? You're not in their heads; you don't know. In the end it doesn't even matter. You're a group of people who have created a little community around listening to and making and consuming similar music, books, magazines, whatever. That's it. It's fun and it may have a big impact on your life, but it's not more important or revolutionary or whatever than anything else that's out there. In fact, the argument could be made that there is very little that is less useless than being punk, rasta, hippie, or whatever. But I digress...often... :)

Quote
However, if the punks you hung with didn't dress like "hardcore (the genre, not a definition of level of devotion) punks", that is also understandable- punk being as diverse as it is.

Eh, some did, some didn't. Didn't matter. The place I grew up in was so small, you couldn't form cliques around that kind of thing.

Quote
Yeah, I did that before my last punk-look hurrah. Went from mohawked punk in the South where there wasn't a scene to semi-hippy Joey Ramone look when I moved to Chicago and was disgusted by the punk-fashion-show that went on in the clubs. Then realized that dressing in any way as a form of protest was just as lame as dressing a certain way to conform and that I really liked having a kick-a mohawk- and would start balding in about 10 years, so have fun now.

That's cool. For me I reached a point when I was about 19 or 20 when I kind of woke up and realized that staying out until 3 am every weekend watching bands I didn't really like was not conducive to the kind of life I wanted (to say nothing of playing in and touring with bands I didn't like, ughhh). I wanted to get educated (still do) and maybe meet a nice young lady who I could to out with to somewhere that wasn't a basement or the back of a record store, who might have something deeper to talk about then bands and politics. I have some great memories of those days, but it's definitely not something I'd want to do again.

Quote
Translation? Google does not recognize the language.

Serbo-Croatian, "I'm a punk in an old jacket" by the one and only Peking Duck, the heroes and legends of Yugoslavian "novi val".

Quote
Again, you don't wear bondage pants because they're "punk". You wear bondage pants because they're awesome (unless we're talking the Hot-topic goth-emo style of bondage pants)- and scare homophobic red-necks.

Eh...alright. I don't really see how that squares with the whole "dressing up to make a statement is for hippies", and I like wearing pants that I can move in, but to each their own.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 08:28:12 PM by dzheremi »

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2012, 09:00:49 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ugh. I see I am not expressing myself clearly. I will try it again.

The liturgy is not a punk rock show or a hippie drum circle or a fun-run or any of that stuff. It is NOT about what you wear (so, no, I'm not advocating not allowing people in church if they are/aren't dressed a certain way), but it is about letting go of the things of the world. Again, if you can do that in your leather jacket or big...uh...Rastafarian hat (you know, this number), then go right ahead, but that will not change the fact that the Church is a place to worship God, not to be identified as punks, or rastas, or whatevers. Indeed, God made all of these people, and while He didn't make me specifically to love the Clash, I sure do, and I thank Him for that enjoyment. But that doesn't mean that my subcultural identity amounts to a hill of beans. These things of the world do not belong in the Church. That's all.

Actually my priests explicitly commanded me to wear my red, gold, and green tam when communing when I still had dread, but then again, like usual, in your self-righteous Puritan zeal you are not expressing yourself very clearly ;)

By the way, you realize nobody has been talking about changing  or intruding upon the  Divine Liturgy, but there are plenty of activities within the Church, related to the Church, and celebrated by the Church community that in all honesty have nothing to do with the Liturgy right?

Anthropologically speaking what is the difference exactly between


and


But again, what does any of this have to do with Organs in the Church?

I'll connect it.  Knee-jerk reactionary reactions like those we see on this thread to expressions of culture are exactly why folks in the Church have apprehension to projectors  or organs.  At the end of the of day, is it really so Christian to split these particular hairs?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:01:30 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2012, 09:06:03 PM »
My "self-righteous Puritan zeal" aside, I think this conversation has pretty much run its course. The things I am uncomfortable with I am still uncomfortable with, but you have given me something to think about, so thank you. I am bowing out of this one unless the topic changes.

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2012, 09:08:50 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My "self-righteous Puritan zeal" aside, I think this conversation has pretty much run its course. The things I am uncomfortable with I am still uncomfortable with, but you have given me something to think about, so thank you. I am bowing out of this one unless the topic changes.

Thank you, and I am also sorry if my words were a bit too cutting, but you have to understand that sometimes you post here with a condescending tone, and it can be very curt and even hurtful sometimes to other peoples heartfelt opinions, ideas, and cultures :)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2012, 09:16:36 PM »
It is unintentional, and I apologize. I can only say what I believe, but I do not mean to cut anyone down or present myself as better than anybody. For heaven's sake, I am not even Orthodox. I'm not sure how to make the same points in different/softer words, but I'll keep trying anyway. O Lord, set a watch on my mouth, and a strong door for my lips.

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #129 on: February 11, 2012, 09:18:28 PM »
Actually, I was referring to you "coming in off the street". You know, like a Rasta would most likely have dreadlocks. I don't know about you, but I more often dressed the way I dressed because I liked the way it looked and not to "make a statement". Make a statement dress was for hippies.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, my friend. Punks are mostly just hippies with slightly different drug habits.
One of these days there will be appropriate sarcasm/irony indicators on the internet. I/me/now agrees. I/me/punk would have agreed, but would have had several acquaintances to whom the term "hippy" was the worst insult.

It depends, of course, upon why the "norms" of the community are the "norms" of the community. Are people dressing nicer to honor God or to keep a good reputation in the Ethnic Country Club Orthodox Church? I've seen more than a few of the latter parishes that would benefit greatly from a few punks and Rastas (or monks!) in attendance.

I'm not sure what you mean with that last statement.
As it seems you are Coptic Orthodox you might not have to deal with that statement. Lucky you. For some American Eastern Orthodox the local parish is almost a (insert ethnicity here) club, where the "pillars of the community" come to see and be seen. $1000 suits and $500 haircuts required.
As long as that's the reason, perfect. FWIW, I don't have a 12" mohawk anymore and the bondage pants are in the back of the closet somewhere. Nobody demanded these things of me, Church just naturally became more important than punk. That said, I wouldn't pressure any of my old friends to dress better if they were going to the parish with me.

"Church just naturally became more important than punk" - excellent. As far pressuring anybody...well, it's never good to pressure anyone, and always beneficial to the curious that they be allowed to come as they are (if they haven't made a commitment, why potentially scare them off?). At the same time, I would think that most people do have a sense that going to church does entail, if not a particular level of formal dress, at least an attempt to dress as you might when visiting non-whatever you are relatives, or your boss, or something of that level. And if they don't, then I don't think it's "pressure" to tell them that gently, especially if you invite them. I mean, you want them to get something out of it other than "all of those strange people stared at me", don't you? (In my experience as the white guy in the Coptic Church, I don't think anyone would actually do that, but I also know from personal experience that if it is not what you are used to, you'll feel that way anyway, so there's no need to add to it by increasing the "fish out of water" feeling by not trying to prepare your friends as best as you can. There is a happy medium, and it doesn't require anyone buy a new suit or whatever. I wear the same outfit now that I wrote to the hundreds of RC masses I attended, and no one thinks it odd.)
I doubt any of my old friends would try to go in bondage pants and a punk-band t-shirt, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect them to buy a suit or shave their 'hawk.

Less about "you're not punk" and more about- well, let's put it like this, we've got a few members of the board who used to be hippies back in the sixties. Now, I'm sure the ones who were hippies just because that was the thing to do probably do think they looked pretty stupid with the whole tie-dye, semi-Native-American, long hair look. Those who believed in the ideals of the community, had good friends, and fond memories of the movement, on the other hand, probably still think the look was kind of awesome, even if it doesn't fit with who they are today.

I suppose I don't go in for the "ideals" bit of the musical subculture because by now I'm old and bitter, but really even back then, as a teenager...like I wrote, you can be inspired by the music and what it presents you, that's really great, but in the end it's still music. I think it is silly to be the "we mean it, maaaaan" guy. Who's to say that those people who you look at and think are just dressing the part don't also really mean it? You're not in their heads; you don't know. In the end it doesn't even matter. You're a group of people who have created a little community around listening to and making and consuming similar music, books, magazines, whatever. That's it. It's fun and it may have a big impact on your life, but it's not more important or revolutionary or whatever than anything else that's out there. In fact, the argument could be made that there is very little that is less useless than being punk, rasta, hippie, or whatever. But I digress...often... :)
Ah, but would you have argued that way when you were part of the subculture? For you, perhaps, it was all about the music and not the anti-corporate, anti-government
philosophy, just like for many it was about the style of dress more than either the music or ethos. FWIW, at the time, I more often came down on the philosophy side of the "real punk" debates- as much as I liked punk music, of all types, I tended more toward music in general that embraced the DIY ethos and "punk politics", whether it be punk, folk, or hip-hop. That is to say, I was one of those who considered an obscure techno DJ to be more "punk" than Green Day or post-Democratic Party shilling NOFX. Regardless, that is something you have to realize when you're older, if someone tells you that while you're still in that "punk is the most important thing ever" mindset, you're going to tune them out.
However, if the punks you hung with didn't dress like "hardcore (the genre, not a definition of level of devotion) punks", that is also understandable- punk being as diverse as it is.

Eh, some did, some didn't. Didn't matter. The place I grew up in was so small, you couldn't form cliques around that kind of thing.
Sounds like me down South. When I was a kid I couldn't have dreamt of the level of division between straight-edge, skate-punk, hardcore, psychobilly, etc that I found in the city.

Yeah, I did that before my last punk-look hurrah. Went from mohawked punk in the South where there wasn't a scene to semi-hippy Joey Ramone look when I moved to Chicago and was disgusted by the punk-fashion-show that went on in the clubs. Then realized that dressing in any way as a form of protest was just as lame as dressing a certain way to conform and that I really liked having a kick-a mohawk- and would start balding in about 10 years, so have fun now.

That's cool. For me I reached a point when I was about 19 or 20 when I kind of woke up and realized that staying out until 3 am every weekend watching bands I didn't really like was not conducive to the kind of life I wanted (to say nothing of playing in and touring with bands I didn't like, ughhh). I wanted to get educated (still do) and maybe meet a nice young lady who I could to out with to somewhere that wasn't a basement or the back of a record store, who might have something deeper to talk about then bands and politics. I have some great memories of those days, but it's definitely not something I'd want to do again.
Fair enough. Had I stayed where I was as a kid I probably would have done the same a lot earlier than I did. Chicago, for better or worse, was a lot better about providing bands I did like, venues I'd want to play in, etc (though, seriously, I have yet to find a [single] lady anywhere that can talk about anything deeper than bands and politics, especially not college. College women are generally shallower, the more heady the major the shallower they get).

Translation? Google does not recognize the language.

Serbo-Croatian, "I'm a punk in an old jacket" by the one and only Peking Duck, the heroes and legends of Yugoslavian "novi val".
Sweet. I had more than enough in American and English punk and psychobilly to keep me occupied (though these guys were one of my favorites), so never got too into foreign bands.
Again, you don't wear bondage pants because they're "punk". You wear bondage pants because they're awesome (unless we're talking the Hot-topic goth-emo style of bondage pants)- and scare homophobic red-necks.

Eh...alright. I don't really see how that squares with the whole "dressing up to make a statement is for hippies",
Well, first, scaring homophobic rednecks isn't making a statement, it's just a fun past-time. Second, are you really, positively sure you were a punk? You don't seem to have known that contradiction was rampant.

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and I like wearing pants that I can move in, but to each their own.
At 31 I still have a 28" waist (fast metabolism, no past drug use or anything like that)- I have yet to find a pair of pants that I can't move in.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:29:14 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2012, 09:30:51 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Sounds like me down South. When I was a kid I couldn't have dreamt of the level of division between straight-edge, skate-punk, hardcore, psychobilly, etc that I found in the city.


If the Punx are united, we will never, be divided! Punx Unite!!

PS.. You can still find yourself in dancehalls and divebars catching gigs at 3AM and be Orthodox, while it is rarer for me on Saturdays, lately I have even been swaying into Divine Liturgy Sunday mornings at dawn after leaving the dancehall from some serious roots reggae ;)

Of course, I prefer to get to sleep like an old person at 10pm to get up for Liturgy, and usually it is work I am swaying into after a late night at the gigs  :P

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 09:31:04 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #131 on: February 11, 2012, 09:59:25 PM »
As it seems you are Coptic Orthodox you might not have to deal with that statement. Lucky you. For some American Eastern Orthodox the local parish is almost a (insert ethnicity here) club, where the "pillars of the community" come to see and be seen. $1000 suits and $500 haircuts required.

Wow. Yeah...I don't think it has anything to do with being Coptic, it's more that we're a really small community, don't have much money, and have a lot more pressing things to do. We're going on 16 years in Albuquerque with no church, for instance, meaning that anyone who wants to get baptized (e.g., me) has to travel for many hours out of state just to get to the nearest church, and we can only have liturgy usually once every two weeks, etc. I have a little experience with EO in America. I think I have written here before about my very positive but limited experience with St. Seraphim of Sarov OCA church back in my home area of N. California; they're great folks and I didn't detect anything like that dress to impress/meat market atmophere going on there, but of course everywhere is different.

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I doubt any of my old friends would try to go in bondage pants and a punk-band t-shirt, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect them to buy a suit or shave their 'hawk.

I wouldn't either. I meant more about telling them what to expect so that they can be prepared no matter how they decide to dress. If I had non-religious friends here who wanted to come to liturgy, I'd likewise talk to people at church beforehand just to make sure that the chances that my friends get scared off would be minimized. The Copts here are a very happily zealous people, and I can take it, but I can only imagine what it must be like for the poor Lutheran family who visited us once (I couldn't get word in, which was really unfortunate as the wife was ex-RC, like me), or any of the other non-OO who visit. There are a brother and sister who are Melkite Catholic who visit more regularly, but they have an easier time as they are also Arabic speakers, from Jordan. Anyway...

Quote
Ah, but would you have argued that way when you were part of the subculture? For you, perhaps, it was all about the music and not the anti-corporate, anti-government
philosophy, just like for many it was about the style of dress more than either the music or ethos. FWIW, at the time, I more often came down on the philosophy side of the "real punk" debates- as much as I liked punk music, of all types, I tended more toward music in general that embraced the DIY ethos and "punk politics", whether it be punk, folk, or hip-hop. That is to say, I was one of those who considered an obscure techno DJ to be more "punk" than Green Day or post-Democratic Party shilling NOFX. Regardless, that is something you have to realize when you're older, if someone tells you that while you're still in that "punk is the most important thing ever" mindset, you're going to tune them out.

I don't know. I think I was probably mentally old by the time I got into it, just as a result of unrelated circumstances. Politics...eh...they have their place, but I would rather a faith-informed worldview than paying more attention to what someone has to say just because they have a guitar. Anyone can play the guitar. Heck, I did it for years. And yet, somehow, "the system" is still here. Maybe I didn't play loud enough...I don't know. Ultimately, the Pelagian notions that underlie all political systems are poison to me. I do not see such a big difference between anarchism and fascism, and even within the punk scene I eventually found that I was not the only one who thought so (thankfully! "I do not believe in anarchy", as this song goes, should be a perfectly reasonable statement, but try telling a punk rocker who believes in all of these things that he hears on his favorite records about that...you just don't get it, maaaan...  :))

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Fair enough. Had I stayed where I was as a kid I probably would have done the same a lot earlier than I did. Chicago, for better or worse, was a lot better about providing bands I did like, venues I'd want to play in, etc (though, seriously, I have yet to find a [single] lady anywhere that can talk about anything deeper than bands and politics, especially not college. College women are generally shallower, the more heady the major the shallower they get).

Hmm. That was interestingly phrased. You mean women only become interesting and able to talk about deep matters after they are married? I could see why that would be a problem, then! :) I don't know that I've experienced that (and it seems like my rather esoteric field of study is a majority-female department at my particular institution), but just like Orthodox churches in different places, I suppose everywhere is different. May God bless your searching, if you're still on the lookout for that allusive woman.

Translation? Sweet. I had more than enough in American and English punk and psychobilly to keep me occupied (though these guys were one of my favorites), so never got too into foreign bands.

Hahaha. That song is silly.

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Well, first, scaring homophobic rednecks isn't making a statement, it's just a fun past-time.


Touche.

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Second, are you really, positively sure you were a punk? You don't seem to have known that contradiction was rampant.

Well, I turned in my secret decoder ring years ago, but yeah, I think so. I probably just didn't pay attention.

Quote
At 31 I still have a 28" waist (fast metabolism, no past drug use or anything like that)- I have yet to find a pair of pants that I can't move in.

Well the Lord has certainly blessed you! Hahaha. This is good to hear. I wish I could say the same.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 10:00:38 PM by dzheremi »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #132 on: February 11, 2012, 10:03:38 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Sounds like me down South. When I was a kid I couldn't have dreamt of the level of division between straight-edge, skate-punk, hardcore, psychobilly, etc that I found in the city.


If the Punx are united, we will never, be divided! Punx Unite!!
The Casualties! Sweet.

Quote
PS.. You can still find yourself in dancehalls and divebars catching gigs at 3AM and be Orthodox, while it is rarer for me on Saturdays, lately I have even been swaying into Divine Liturgy Sunday mornings at dawn after leaving the dancehall from some serious roots reggae ;)
Not down in Miami, I can't. It's not that there aren't punk shows down here, it's that I don't have any of my old friends down this way, and it seems kind of pointless. That said it would be nice to get out for the night.
Quote
Of course, I prefer to get to sleep like an old person at 10pm to get up for Liturgy, and usually it is work I am swaying into after a late night at the gigs  :P

stay blessed,
habte selassie
These days, if I'm swaying at Liturgy it is because I had homework to finish up and I decided that 2hrs of sleep would be more annoying than restful so didn't sleep at all.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 10:07:53 PM by FormerReformer »
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Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #133 on: February 11, 2012, 10:16:06 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


These days, if I'm swaying at Liturgy it is because I had homework to finish up and I decided that 2hrs of sleep would be more annoying than restful so didn't sleep at all.

True, I wouldn't go to a punk gig solo either, but that is because I love the pit too much ;)

Of course, I haven't been to a punk gig in a while, its been strictly roots reggae gigs but the principle is still the same, staying out well past our bedtimes

"..because I don't want to go home, until the morning, Mr Dancehall Selectah I beg your pardon.." Josey Wales

..and to keep it on target, if I staggered into Church at dawn tired from the dancehall the night before and I heard an organ during Liturgy, I'd probably be about as upset as some of the folks here are....


..we don't play the organ until the hymns AFTER Liturgy ;)

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 10:18:21 PM by HabteSelassie »
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Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #134 on: February 11, 2012, 10:20:38 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


These days, if I'm swaying at Liturgy it is because I had homework to finish up and I decided that 2hrs of sleep would be more annoying than restful so didn't sleep at all.

True, I wouldn't go to a punk gig solo either, but that is because I love the pit too much ;)

Of course, I haven't been to a punk gig in a while, its been strictly roots reggae gigs but the principle is still the same, staying out well past our bedtimes

"..because I don't want to go home, until the morning, Mr Dancehall Selectah I beg your pardon.." Josey Wales

..and to keep it on target, if I staggered into Church at dawn tired from the dancehall the night before and I heard an organ during Liturgy, I'd probably be about as upset as some of the folks here are....


..we don't play the organ until the hymns AFTER Liturgy ;)

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

Truth be told, I flat out can not go to a reggae gig. A certain temptation would be passed around that I could not guarantee I could resist. I can go to a punk show and not drink, but....
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

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