Author Topic: Organs in Orthodox?  (Read 32493 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #135 on: February 11, 2012, 11:46:26 PM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
SAYS WHO!!!? ???
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 11:52:10 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #136 on: February 11, 2012, 11:48:15 PM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 11:51:10 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2012, 12:00:40 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!

Like in the other thread, you can NEVER question that pre-marital sex is a sin. It is a sin, and will always be a sin. No one can change that and no one will ever change that.

Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:09:57 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2012, 12:09:48 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!



Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1

Hello, true Scotsman? Will any true Scotsman please stand up? Anyone? Bueller?

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2012, 12:12:31 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!



Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1

Hello, true Scotsman? Will any true Scotsman please stand up? Anyone? Bueller?

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.

No true Orthodox can be socially liberal. That is the TRUTH. "No True Scotsman" DOES NOT apply here, and CANNOT apply here. Because as Orthodox Christians, we have doctrines, we have membership in the church, we have a set morality that all of us absolutely HAVE to adhere to in order to be Orthodox. When we step outside of that, we start forfeiting our Orthodoxy. That is the TRUTH. I'm sick of liberals trying to come into our church and destroy it. One cannot be socially liberal and be Orthodox, that is the fact.

The idiots that answer in Orthodox surveys that we can ordain women, that abortion and birth control is okay, that smoking is permissible, that permitting tolerance for LGBT is okay, inter-communion and ecumenism etc... Are not Orthodox and should be chastised for their heterodox viewpoints.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:16:40 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2012, 12:20:43 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing?
4. Who are the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. ::) That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. ::) Get real.

Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1
That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:25:23 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2012, 12:27:02 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing? Who are they?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. ::) That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. ::) Get real.

Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1
That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.

How the hell can you expect marijuana to be in scripture, the fathers or holy tradition? It didn't become a widespread sin until the 20th Century. Use your common sense as an Orthodox Christian!
You know Protestantism is a heresy right? You know that smoking cigarettes is wrong right? You know that cutting yourself for attention is wrong right? You know that anorexia [fixed] and bulemia are sins right? Yet where in the Bible, in the Tradition of the Church, in the Holy Fathers are ANY of those mentioned specifically?

Being drunk is a sin, smoking cigarettes is a sin. It's not to difficult to see why smoking marijuana is a sin if you use common sense.

Pews were invented by the heretical Protestants so they could sit on their duffs while they taught heresies within their churches. You cannot worship God sitting on your butt, only standing, kneeling or prostrate. We don't sit in worship, we stand, we always have and we always should unless we are sick, old or otherwise infirm or nursing.

There absolutely cannot be ANY instruments in worship. That IS in the Fathers, which I have quoted earlier in this thread.

As I said, only sick heretical liberals want to change these things in the church. One cannot be a social liberal and be Orthodox at the same time. One cannot believe LGBT is okay, abortion is okay, smoking is okay, drinking is okay, doing drugs is okay, pre-marital sex is okay, masturbation is okay, believing heresies is okay, communing non-Orthodox is okay, ecumenism is okay, etc... and still be Orthodox. It simply cannot be done.

We can not have pews in our churches, nor organs, nor any other instrument. We cannot allow atheists to design our churches, nor to build our churches in modernist styles. All of that is against our tradition and against Orthodoxy. We don't follow the heterodox or the heretics, we don't follow the rest of this sick, twisted and evil world. There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:57:58 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2012, 12:39:37 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!



Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1

Hello, true Scotsman? Will any true Scotsman please stand up? Anyone? Bueller?

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.
Again, hello Mr Moses. Try not to break those tablets.

Quote
No true Orthodox can be socially liberal. That is the TRUTH. "No True Scotsman" DOES NOT apply here, and CANNOT apply here. Because as Orthodox Christians, we have doctrines, we have membership in the church, we have a set morality that all of us absolutely HAVE to adhere to in order to be Orthodox. When we step outside of that, we start forfeiting our Orthodoxy. That is the TRUTH. I'm sick of liberals trying to come into our church and destroy it. One cannot be socially liberal and be Orthodox, that is the fact. The idiots that answer in Orthodox surveys that we can ordain women, that abortion and birth control is okay, that smoking is permissible, that permitting tolerance for LGBT is okay, inter-communion and ecumenism etc... Are not Orthodox and should be chastised for their heterodox viewpoints.
I suppose your definition of "socially liberal" is in question here- do you mean that no Orthodox Christian can DO the things you list as if you were St Paul writing to the Americans? Or do you mean that no Orthodox Christian can say that it's none of their business what the world does, and all must follow lockstep to our whim? Finally, who ordained you deacon, priest, or bishop to dictate what is or is not Orthodoxy? ANAXIOS!

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #143 on: February 12, 2012, 12:41:48 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing? Who are they?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. ::) That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. ::) Get real.

Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1
That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.

How the hell can you expect marijuana to be in scripture, the fathers or holy tradition? It didn't become a widespread sin until the 20th Century. Use your common sense as an Orthodox Christian!
I AM using common sense. Of course marijuana is not in the Scriptures, but intoxicants such as wine are.

You know Protestantism is a heresy right? You know that smoking cigarettes is wrong right? You know that cutting yourself for attention is wrong right? You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right? Yet where in the Bible, in the Tradition of the Church, in the Holy Fathers are ANY of those mentioned specifically?
And where is your "common sense" found in the Scriptures? If you're going to call something a sin, then at least have the common courtesy to tell us exactly why it's a sin. Merely calling those who disagree stupid, dense, misguided, blind, whatever ad hominems you wish to attach to them for not seeing things as you do is not going to convince anyone that we should see your pet bugaboos as sins.

Being drunk is a sin, smoking cigarettes is a sin. It's not to difficult to see why smoking marijuana is a sin if you use common sense.
But what if I'm not using your "common sense"? Common sense is really a terrible argument, for it's too vague a concept, and it's too dependent on one's own subjective view of the world.

Pews were invented by the heretical Protestants so they could sit on their duffs while they taught heresies within their churches. You cannot worship God sitting on your butt, only standing, kneeling or prostrate.
Again, says who?

We don't sit in worship, we stand, we always have and we always should unless we are sick, old or otherwise infirm or nursing.
Says who?

There absolutely cannot be ANY instruments in worship. That IS in the Fathers, which I have quoted earlier in this thread.
WHY did the Fathers oppose instrumental worship? Why must we follow their opposition to instrumental music in church as though their opposition is an eternal principle that transcends all of human history and culture? Cannot their opposition have been conditioned by the cultural influences they were forced to address in their place and time? As a church musician myself, I can think of some very good reasons why I don't like instruments in church, but they're not based on a blind, thoughtless, uncritical obedience to pastoral directives intended for particular places and times.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:42:12 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #144 on: February 12, 2012, 12:43:40 AM »
smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? ;)

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing? Who are they?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. ::) That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. ::) Get real.

Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1
That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.

How the hell can you expect marijuana to be in scripture, the fathers or holy tradition? It didn't become a widespread sin until the 20th Century. Use your common sense as an Orthodox Christian!
I AM using common sense. Of course marijuana is not in the Scriptures, but intoxicants such as wine are.

You know Protestantism is a heresy right? You know that smoking cigarettes is wrong right? You know that cutting yourself for attention is wrong right? You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right? Yet where in the Bible, in the Tradition of the Church, in the Holy Fathers are ANY of those mentioned specifically?
And where is your "common sense" found in the Scriptures? If you're going to call something a sin, then at least have the common courtesy to tell us exactly why it's a sin. Merely calling those who disagree stupid, dense, misguided, blind, whatever ad hominems you wish to attach to them for not seeing things as you do is not going to convince anyone that we should see your pet bugaboos as sins.

Being drunk is a sin, smoking cigarettes is a sin. It's not to difficult to see why smoking marijuana is a sin if you use common sense.
But what if I'm not using your "common sense"? Common sense is really a terrible argument, for it's too vague a concept, and it's too dependent on one's own subjective view of the world.

Pews were invented by the heretical Protestants so they could sit on their duffs while they taught heresies within their churches. You cannot worship God sitting on your butt, only standing, kneeling or prostrate.
Again, says who?

We don't sit in worship, we stand, we always have and we always should unless we are sick, old or otherwise infirm or nursing.
Says who?

There absolutely cannot be ANY instruments in worship. That IS in the Fathers, which I have quoted earlier in this thread.
WHY did the Fathers oppose instrumental worship? Why must we follow their opposition to instrumental music in church as though their opposition is an eternal principle that transcends all of human history and culture? Cannot their opposition have been conditioned by the cultural influences they were forced to address in their place and time? As a church musician myself, I can think of some very good reasons why I don't like instruments in church, but they're not based on a blind, thoughtless, uncritical obedience to pastoral directives intended for particular places and times.
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.

I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:48:52 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #145 on: February 12, 2012, 12:48:35 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #146 on: February 12, 2012, 12:49:48 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Are you calling the holy, pure, unblemished and perfect Orthodox Church a cult?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #147 on: February 12, 2012, 12:50:36 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #148 on: February 12, 2012, 12:51:36 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Are you calling the holy, pure, unblemished and perfect Orthodox Church a cult?
Give it up, Devin. You know full well I'm not.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #149 on: February 12, 2012, 12:52:31 AM »
You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right?

How exactly is having a blood disorder or an eating disorder a sin?

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2012, 12:53:58 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).
"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2012, 12:55:03 AM »
You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right?

How exactly is having a blood disorder or an eating disorder a sin?

Yeah, messed up on the blood disorder, I just got news a friend has it, and for some reason I wrote that down instead of anorexia.

Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2012, 12:56:01 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves. The socially liberal should have no say in the Orthodox Church whatsoever.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:59:09 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2012, 12:58:48 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:06 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:32 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.

Are you sure that isn't just your post-Enlightenment side speaking? The so-called Enlightenment was purely evil, and we should stray away from it.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:42 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves.
Someone disagrees with you, so you call him a liberal. ::) Don't you know that ad hominems are used only by those incapable of putting up a good, logical defense of their arguments?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #157 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:59 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.

Are you sure that isn't just your post-Enlightenment side speaking? The so-called Enlightenment was purely evil, and we should stray away from it.
Again, says who?
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2012, 01:01:42 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #159 on: February 12, 2012, 01:03:33 AM »
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.

Are you sure that isn't just your post-Enlightenment side speaking? The so-called Enlightenment was purely evil, and we should stray away from it.
Again, says who?

It was started by the godless, by deists, by non-christians who rebelled against Christianity. They were sick, twisted and purely motivated by Satan, just as Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan, just as the Pope was motivated by Satan to desire more power than was allotted to him. Just as Satan led Nestorius into his blasphemous teachings.

You can't trust non-Christians, you can't trust atheists, you can't trust deists to be faithful to God, you can't trust them to make good Christian decisions, you can't trust them to have a Godly philosophy, science or anything because they are all separated from his Church.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:04:46 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline FormerReformer

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #160 on: February 12, 2012, 01:22:48 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves. The socially liberal should have no say in the Orthodox Church whatsoever.
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party, Mr McCarthy.

You know what sounds unbelievably "Progressive", though? Putting new lines down on the ground where none existed before. Sounds like the textbook definition to me (And everybody knows that Progressivism is in direct contradiction to a Church that hasn't changed its Liturgy in the past 600 years).
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #161 on: February 12, 2012, 01:30:42 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves. The socially liberal should have no say in the Orthodox Church whatsoever.
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party, Mr McCarthy.

You know what sounds unbelievably "Progressive", though? Putting new lines down on the ground where none existed before. Sounds like the textbook definition to me (And everybody knows that Progressivism is in direct contradiction to a Church that hasn't changed its Liturgy in the past 600 years).

How do you explain the fact that marijuana is illegal in both Greece & Russia (and every other Orthodox nation)?

and... http://www.antiochian.org/alcohol_and_drug_abuse
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:31:56 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2012, 01:31:35 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2012, 01:32:45 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

sin is not a rule you break, it is something you do that hurts yourself and/or others around you. Its something that separates you and God.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #164 on: February 12, 2012, 01:35:06 AM »
"Why else would healthy boys and girls inject wretched drugs into their veins and fill their lungs with pot? Or give sexual favors to virtual strangers? Or even commit suicide? Their behavior has been warped by enormous social pressures in an environment of confused values and unmet needs. The "false messiahs and false prophets" of today are alcohol, marijuana, hard drugs, pornography, gambling, homosexual experimentation, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and morally irresponsible abortion."

from: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7125

So there we have an OCA Parish, the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Greek Archdiocese, a (presumably Greek) Priest, plus the fact that marijuana is illegal in all Orthodox countries.

You need any more proof that it is sinful?

So far, I actually have reliable evidence that it is sinful, maybe you need to find proof for yourself that it isn't a sin from actual Orthodox jurisdictions and Orthodox figures.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:36:54 AM by 88Devin12 »

Offline dzheremi

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2012, 01:45:26 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

sin is not a rule you break, it is something you do that hurts yourself and/or others around you. Its something that separates you and God.

I see. An eating disorder certainly hurts you and others around you, and may separate you from God (although as I'm sure you know a great many people in the history of the faith have grown closer to God through similar struggles), but I guess this makes very little sense to me because as a physical manifestation of what is essentially a mental illness/disturbance, I don't see how it is all that different than something that would be less obvious and may go undetected (and hence not cause you to harm yourself or others), like schizophrenia. Would you say that schizophrenia is a sin?

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2012, 02:07:57 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

sin is not a rule you break, it is something you do that hurts yourself and/or others around you. Its something that separates you and God.

I see. An eating disorder certainly hurts you and others around you, and may separate you from God (although as I'm sure you know a great many people in the history of the faith have grown closer to God through similar struggles), but I guess this makes very little sense to me because as a physical manifestation of what is essentially a mental illness/disturbance, I don't see how it is all that different than something that would be less obvious and may go undetected (and hence not cause you to harm yourself or others), like schizophrenia. Would you say that schizophrenia is a sin?

It isn't just a mental illness that manifests itself physically, just as the mental ill ess is not just a chemical imbalance. It all originates (most often) with the soul, and vice versa. Your whole body is connected intimately. If I have a cold, I seek repentance for my sins, pray for healing, look for what could be wrong with my soul. Yet because it's also a physical manifestation, I also must seek help from a licensed doctor and sometimes seek the aids of medication, extra sleep, etc...

If one has a mental illness of any kind, they must go to both their Priest and to a Psychologist. Maybe even other experts.
Therefore they treat their whole entire body...

If I look at something Bad like goreand violence in a movie, I have scarred my soul. I've not just been tempted, but freely allowed the image to enter into my body, wounding me. It arises physical passions within my body, and may even deaden my soul, which could lead to a mental state of apathy.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2012, 02:39:24 AM »
"Why else would healthy boys and girls inject wretched drugs into their veins and fill their lungs with pot? Or give sexual favors to virtual strangers? Or even commit suicide? Their behavior has been warped by enormous social pressures in an environment of confused values and unmet needs. The "false messiahs and false prophets" of today are alcohol, marijuana, hard drugs, pornography, gambling, homosexual experimentation, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and morally irresponsible abortion."

from: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7125

So there we have an OCA Parish, the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Greek Archdiocese, a (presumably Greek) Priest, plus the fact that marijuana is illegal in all Orthodox countries.

You need any more proof that it is sinful?

So far, I actually have reliable evidence that it is sinful, maybe you need to find proof for yourself that it isn't a sin from actual Orthodox jurisdictions and Orthodox figures.
A little hint for you: "reliable" is that which will convince those other than yourself whom you wish to convince. Again, no evidence from basic principles found in Scripture, no evidence from basic principles taught by the Fathers, no evidence from principles found in our Tradition, no writings of bishops, just a handful of Web sites apparently cherry picked to support your point of view. I got in a debate recently with someone else who posited that the word of a bishop has more authority than the Web pages of a diocese or parish, Web pages quite often published by a Webmaster without being first reviewed by a bishop. I'm beginning to see a lot of wisdom in his arguments. Why should I deem as authoritative the word of the Webmasters of an OCA parish, the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Greek Archdiocese, and a ROCOR priest who hates tobacco? Why should I accept as representative of the Orthodox Church the laws passed by those governments of predominantly Orthodox nations? Do you not realize that those governments are fundamentally secular in nature and may not represent the influence of the constituent Orthodox churches?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 05:22:40 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2012, 02:42:50 AM »
Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?
Yes, we need an explanation.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2012, 04:32:45 AM »
"Why else would healthy boys and girls inject wretched drugs into their veins and fill their lungs with pot? Or give sexual favors to virtual strangers? Or even commit suicide? Their behavior has been warped by enormous social pressures in an environment of confused values and unmet needs. The "false messiahs and false prophets" of today are alcohol, marijuana, hard drugs, pornography, gambling, homosexual experimentation, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and morally irresponsible abortion."

from: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7125

Clarifying the why of the quote since it was clear it was not a free floating statement:
"Television and movies hammer away at moral values and ethical principles. Any form of restraint and self-discipline is ridiculed by the media, friends and acquaintances. Rock concerts, rappers and MTV have a unique way of subjecting masses of emotionally needy kids to deafening sounds, abnormal noises, eerie lights, wild behavior and godless philosophies."

I do not understand you Devin. This is not a critique, but how do you see the role/necessity of humility in our lives and why. I am only asking because I thought humility was central such that I continue to strive towards it but I see little of it in this thread.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I posited that the innovation of organs in church was from the Orthodox and not the Roman Catholics and that we disseminated this practice early on. There has been no refutation, yet the heretical West is still blamed.  Church fathers are known to be against organs but none have yet to be quoted with or without links to further this discussion.

On a personal note, not that it is particularly relevant, organs adapted towards Western musical tonality does not mesh particularly well with Byzantine hymns. On the other hand, I appreciate organists who perform their own interpretation of the hymns at the end of the service.
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Offline witega

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2012, 02:52:18 PM »
Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim that an individual can regularly indulge a sin right up until their death and still be a saint. So by this logic, I could visit a prostitute every week and still be a saint? I could embezzle money from my parish, keep the money, and still be a saint?

(What seem obvious is that rather than looking to the examples of the Fathers and Saints, you are simply importing your Puritan-influenced modern American morality into the Church and then looking for contemporary sources to validate you. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff is a respected archpriest--but he's no St. John).
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Offline biro

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #171 on: February 12, 2012, 02:55:11 PM »
In my parish today, the choir and the organist had the day off, so it was just Father and the chanters. I guess I really have gotten used to the organ.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #172 on: February 12, 2012, 06:36:37 PM »
Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim that an individual can regularly indulge a sin right up until their death and still be a saint. So by this logic, I could visit a prostitute every week and still be a saint? I could embezzle money from my parish, keep the money, and still be a saint?

(What seem obvious is that rather than looking to the examples of the Fathers and Saints, you are simply importing your Puritan-influenced modern American morality into the Church and then looking for contemporary sources to validate you. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff is a respected archpriest--but he's no St. John).


While the marijuana debate is still up in the air, smoking cigarettes most certainly is not, it is a sin that cannot be denied.

Antiochian Archdiocese: Drinking & Smoking by Fr Joseph Purpura
http://www.antiochian.org/drinking_smoking

Greek Archdiocese: The Stand of the Orthodox Church on Controversial Issues by Fr. Stanley Harakas
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Archangel Michael & St. Bishoy Coptic Orthodox Church: Is Smoking a Sin by  Fr. Antonios Kaldas
http://www.stbishoy.org.au/modules/smartfaq/faq.php?faqid=64

Orthodox Info: A Conversation about Modernism by Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/tradmod_intro.aspx

Orthodox Answers, by Fr. Laurent
http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/1073/

In the 17th Century, the Russian Czar banned the use of tobacco and the Greek Orthodox Church followed suit the same year.

Furthermore, I doubt if you know that our clergy and monastics are forbidden from smoking, and our laity are encouraged to stop doing so.

While not worth anything as proof, I've also spoken to faithful from Orthodox countries who confirm that they are encouraged to quit smoking by the Church in their native lands.

Oh, and our Saints aren't required to be perfect or completely free of any sin. The last Czar and his family played with superstition and very dangerous and possibly evil things, just look at Rasputin. Yet they are canonized, not because of their Orthodox behavior, but because they became martyrs for the faith.
Constantine wasn't baptized till the end of his life (and then by a heretic) yet he is remembered as a Saint in our Church.

We don't assume that the Saints lived perfect lives, there is only one who was absolutely perfect in every way, that was Christ. There is only one other who has come close to that, and it was Mary. All of the rest of us strive to become like them to the best of our abilities, but the vast majority of us fall short. Does that mean none of us are worthy to be saints? Certainly not! We don't ask that our Saints should have lived perfect lives and be completely free of any and all sin upon their deaths.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 06:52:21 PM by 88Devin12 »

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #173 on: February 12, 2012, 06:43:01 PM »
Did Concilliar Press release a tract about smoking yet?


Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #174 on: February 12, 2012, 06:45:13 PM »
Did Concilliar Press release a tract about smoking yet?

There is a book called Smoking and the Orthodox Christian by Constantine Cavarnos, but I don't think Conciliar Press has released a tract about it yet.

Offline witega

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #175 on: February 12, 2012, 06:53:51 PM »
a) You didn't answer my question. If St. John could be a saint while being a chain-smoker, can I be a saint while regularly patronizing prostitutes? If not, why not?

b) All the websites and priests in the world don't have the authority of a single bishop or saint. When any of those individuals is recognized as a saint like St. John then I'll take their opinions about sanctity on balance with his. When one of their bishops publicly preaches this as the teaching of the Church, you'll have your first piece of evidence that that is actually the case.

c)
Quote
Furthermore, I doubt if you know that our clergy and monastics are forbidden from smoking, and our laity are encouraged to stop doing so.

Care to actually prove that? Because in addition to St. John (who was both), I've know several monks and clergy who apparently didn't get the memo.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #176 on: February 12, 2012, 06:58:47 PM »
a) You didn't answer my question. If St. John could be a saint while being a chain-smoker, can I be a saint while regularly patronizing prostitutes? If not, why not?

b) All the websites and priests in the world don't have the authority of a single bishop or saint. When any of those individuals is recognized as a saint like St. John then I'll take their opinions about sanctity on balance with his. When one of their bishops publicly preaches this as the teaching of the Church, you'll have your first piece of evidence that that is actually the case.

c)
Quote
Furthermore, I doubt if you know that our clergy and monastics are forbidden from smoking, and our laity are encouraged to stop doing so.

Care to actually prove that? Because in addition to St. John (who was both), I've know several monks and clergy who apparently didn't get the memo.

I fear you are the one who actually has to do the proving. I have already given you several sources from reliable Orthodox websites, including two major Archdiocese within the United States.

I will answer a... Yes, He can still be a saint while being a chain-smoker. Can Constantine be a Saint even though he wasn't baptized throughout his whole life until the end, and then he was baptized by a heretic? Can St. Prince Vladimir be a saint even though he massacred many pagan Rus in order to spread the faith in his lands? What about Saints that may or may not have even existed, can they still be Saints?
We aren't the Roman Catholic Church, and we don't have preset conditions for Sainthood, and we don't have requirements for people to have fulfilled to be Saints.

It doesn't matter if a Saint didn't exist, or that they didn't live a perfect sinless life, or that they may have been a sinner until their death. If you think they do, then you completely miss the point of Saints.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 07:00:09 PM by 88Devin12 »

Offline HandmaidenofGod

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #177 on: February 12, 2012, 07:16:17 PM »
Devin, I've known you a long time from TAW, and saw you through your conversion process.

For you to come on here with the attitude of a Pharisee is disheartening.

I pray that during this upcoming Lenten period you will learn to take the plank out of your own eye before judging others.
"For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jer 29:11

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #178 on: February 12, 2012, 07:17:17 PM »
a) You didn't answer my question. If St. John could be a saint while being a chain-smoker, can I be a saint while regularly patronizing prostitutes? If not, why not?

b) All the websites and priests in the world don't have the authority of a single bishop or saint. When any of those individuals is recognized as a saint like St. John then I'll take their opinions about sanctity on balance with his. When one of their bishops publicly preaches this as the teaching of the Church, you'll have your first piece of evidence that that is actually the case.

c)
Quote
Furthermore, I doubt if you know that our clergy and monastics are forbidden from smoking, and our laity are encouraged to stop doing so.

Care to actually prove that? Because in addition to St. John (who was both), I've know several monks and clergy who apparently didn't get the memo.

I fear you are the one who actually has to do the proving. I have already given you several sources from reliable Orthodox websites, including two major Archdiocese within the United States.
But again, Devin, it doesn't matter if you've posted supporting information that convinces you if your audience is yet unconvinced. Your burden is to prove your thesis to us, NOT to yourself. witega and I both have given you a guideline that, if followed, will give your arguments a lot more weight, and that is to show us one bishop who condemns smoking. Until you do that, no amount of quotes from "reliable" Web sites will convince us that you represent the Tradition of our Church.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 07:21:15 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline witega

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Re: Organs in Orthodox?
« Reply #179 on: February 12, 2012, 07:23:03 PM »
I fear you are the one who actually has to do the proving. I have already given you several sources from reliable Orthodox websites, including two major Archdiocese within the United States.

I'm not the one declaiming "X is the Orthodox teaching." You are. As such, the burden of proof is clearly on you to back up your statement from actually authoritative Orthodox sources--Scripture, synodical decisions, the teachings and example of multiple Fathers to demonstrate the mind of the Church. Websites and the personal opinions of priests do not consitute such proof.

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I will answer a... Yes, He can still be a saint while being a chain-smoker.

So I can patronize prostitutes and still be a saint? That's an, uh, 'interesting' concept of sin and holiness you have there.

Since you won't answer c, should we take it that you withdraw that particular claim?
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For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great