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Author Topic: Organs in Orthodox?  (Read 9319 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 08, 2012, 10:43:47 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 10:52:59 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

It's a more or less uniquely American phenomenon (although I know someone's going to say there was an organ in the Agia Sophia at some point), so it's fairly limited. It's just an attempt to fit in and seem less foreign to the rest of American society, while throwing the Orthodox musical traditions out the window. I don't think it's necessarily related to ecumenism though.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 11:00:52 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!

Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 11:06:00 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

As I recall in the mid-90's, the Patriarch had an article published in Frank Schaeffer's publication where the Patriarch was very critical of the use of organs among other things.   Of course, I also recall that not long after the article was published, someone donated a new organ to one of the parishes in NYC!
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 11:15:48 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!
Saying that Orthodox shouldn't have organs is tantamount to Gnosticism.
Quote
Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink
I think it often results from Orthodox parishes buying old Catholic or Protestant Churches with organs installed and not wanting them to go to waste. This is all well and good as far as I can tell, but somebody should consider writing a new arrangement of the Divine Liturgy that doesn't sound awful with instrumental accompaniment.
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 11:18:01 PM »

On the aesthetic front- this is one of the better uses of an organ and choir that I've heard at a Greek parish.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 11:19:10 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!

Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink

Heh, yeah THOSE kind of pipes Wink
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 11:21:04 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

As I recall in the mid-90's, the Patriarch had an article published in Frank Schaeffer's publication where the Patriarch was very critical of the use of organs among other things.   Of course, I also recall that not long after the article was published, someone donated a new organ to one of the parishes in NYC!

Yeah I was finding the irony very odd... I mean some parishes even down to no lighting & only candles to keep tradition.  Some with no seating except for the infirmed.... But to use an organ in prayer...  I'm kind of rendered speechless with the understanding of Orthodoxy that I have.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 11:51:49 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

As I recall in the mid-90's, the Patriarch had an article published in Frank Schaeffer's publication where the Patriarch was very critical of the use of organs among other things.   Of course, I also recall that not long after the article was published, someone donated a new organ to one of the parishes in NYC!

Yeah I was finding the irony very odd... I mean some parishes even down to no lighting & only candles to keep tradition.  Some with no seating except for the infirmed.... But to use an organ in prayer...  I'm kind of rendered speechless with the understanding of Orthodoxy that I have.
You done a search yet for other OC.net threads on this subject? I've added a tag to this thread to help you out.
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 11:56:49 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!
Saying that Orthodox shouldn't have organs is tantamount to Gnosticism.
Quote
Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink
I think it often results from Orthodox parishes buying old Catholic or Protestant Churches with organs installed and not wanting them to go to waste. This is all well and good as far as I can tell, but somebody should consider writing a new arrangement of the Divine Liturgy that doesn't sound awful with instrumental accompaniment.


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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 12:06:40 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

It has nothing to do with ecumenism. When Arab and Greek immigrants arrived way back when, they adopted the use of pews and organs because those were the things to have. It was more of a blending in kind of thing.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 01:50:04 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

If you were allowed to speak at an ecumenical council against organs (ruck positive rather than sex) what danger to the Orthodox faith do you think it poses? I have never understood this nor have I paid attention to the issue of organs because I thought it was silly, thus the question.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »

If you were allowed to speak at an ecumenical council against organs (ruck positive rather than sex) what danger to the Orthodox faith do you think it poses? I have never understood this nor have I paid attention to the issue of organs because I thought it was silly, thus the question.

The music we use in Church should reflect and encourage the sobriety and prayerfulness appropriate to Christian piety. The Fathers of the Church spoke against the use of musical instruments because they belong to the earthly realm, whether it's an organ, a flute, or full blown rock band.
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 12:27:29 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

If you were allowed to speak at an ecumenical council against organs (ruck positive rather than sex) what danger to the Orthodox faith do you think it poses? I have never understood this nor have I paid attention to the issue of organs because I thought it was silly, thus the question.

I often wondered why the Slavic Orthodox did not emulate their Greek and Arab brothers in coming to America by adopting organs and musical instrumentation in their parishes. You will find a lot of western things in the first Greek Catholic church structures built in the late 19th and early 20th centuries - most still Byzantine Catholic or Ukrainian Greek Catholic, some of them OCA, some ACROD, some UOCUSA a few ROCOR but I daresay you would never, ever find an organ ( of if they were in an old Protestant building they never used it.) Likewise, even during the height of Latinization in the building of newer BCC or UGCC church buildings in the 1940's and 1950's there were no organs.

For what it's worth, I will pass along something I heard from a long dead priest who came to this country as a married Greek Catholic priest and eventually became part of the group of priests who came into Orthodoxy with the founding of ACROD in 1938.  

When the question came up why this was so regarding organs in the Greek churches but not the Slavs, the old priest gave a pretty insightful answer.

He observed that in the 'old Country' (mostly the former A-H empire, today parts  of this 'kraju' are in Slovakia, Hungary, Poland and Ukraine) organs were for the 'Rimsky Katoliks' not the 'nasej' as the RCC's were 'different' than they were. He believed in his heart of hearts that more eastern consciousness and 'praxis' survived following the centuries of the unia than many Orthodox are willing to credit those people. Certainly St. Alexis and +Metropolitan Orestes Chornock knew this as well as those who remained Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 12:31:49 PM »

I know in our parish, an electric organ is used simply for tone. A note or two is played so we're in the same pitch, and thats it.

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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 12:38:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 12:56:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 01:11:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

So has the wrong file ever been put up? Like your priest's vacation pictures? LOL

PP
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 01:17:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...

No I'm not, we have the Liturgy book posted through PowerPoints in Ge'ez, and translations in Amharic and English, to help the people follow along and understand what they are praying, and it has been a beautiful addition, even if folks in Ethiopia accused us of turning the Churdch into a Cinema Bet Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 01:19:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 01:21:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.

I've been told that my parish was one of the pioneer innovators in California to introduce this practice, and now I have seen its quite common at least here in LA just about all the OO parishes use the same kinds of powerpoints Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 01:26:45 PM »

Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.

I don't think I've ever been to a Coptic parish that didn't use PowerPoint slideshows during services.
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 01:33:44 PM »

Here in Albuquerque, we use powerpoints from St. Mark's in New Jersey (never any instruments beyond the traditional, though; how would you even adapt Coptic chant forms to the organ?). I figure they were here before I got here, so there is no use in complaining about them. Besides, we have several aged members whose eye-sight and command of English (~70% of the liturgy) is probably not the greatest, so having a large screen with all three languages on it is good for them. I have noticed that it does tend to make people overly dependent on it, though. We've never had any slip-ups on the order of abouna's vacation photos showing up, but last weekend one of those infernal "automatic updates" for some part of the computer's system popped up and blocked the text for quite a while as the poor servant who ran the machine tried to get it to go away...almost immediately, the people's part in the hymn dropped out, leaving only the deacons singing straight from the service books, who then of course stopped because they thought they had gone over time and must be intruding on the next part of the liturgy, as the people had stopped. It was quite chaotic...though this kind of chaos is not unknown to us, as we are a very small community, worshiping in an individual home, so a few people being "off" in their part [responding in the wrong language, using the wrong tune, etc.] is really noticeable.

Perhaps the lesson in this is not to despise the screens, but to actually pay attention to what is going on and know your parts regardless. Shamefully, I am just as guilty as anyone, though I find myself more often struggling due to the changes in the melody of a given hymn than problems with the powerpoint (used to chanting the "Hiteniyat" in a certain way, it changes...well, I guess I stand here like an idiot now, just looking at the words, waiting for the invariant part to come back around). I'm hoping this is because of the lingering unfamiliarity of it all, and not a sign that I am as slow to learn as I probably am. Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 02:04:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.

There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do. Protestant and Catholic churches are heretical and we are wrong when we try to emulate them, especially when we implement pews, organs and other instruments.

Its like the idiots who put lights and such on the iconostasis and turn something that is holy to looking like a neon sign in the red light district.

No instruments in worship, save for certain Oriental and African parishes who use drums in worship. The walls are meant to be filled with icons, not for a projection of something. White walls should only be temporary, and eventually should be filled up with icons over time.

Unless your parish comes out of Africa, or is an Oriental Orthodox parish, it should not have any instruments. There should not be any chairs save for a few along the walls for the elderly and the infirm. You can worship God on your feet and on your knees, but you cannot worship him on your butt.

Instead of spending money on a projector, you could spend that same money on simple and cheap liturgical books that serve the same purpose, and also on iconography to adorn the walls rather than a fake projection.
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 02:07:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do.


I am sorry you feel that way but there is no need to be so crass  Tongue

Please explain what might the difference be between people reading from printed or even hand-written Liturgy books and from them reading the same materials on a screen? Honestly, is it merely the technology that upsets you? The written word is a technological revolution, ask the illiterate, paper is a revolution, remember velum?  The Church had adapted and adopted to technology each generation, and there are always rightful critics and detractors, and while I can understand our Christological disputes, but honestly I don't see how using a PowerPoint is exactly heretical Wink

Let me ask this, does you parish use other modern technologies during Liturgy like an amplified public audio system, or air conditioning, or just electric lights?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 02:11:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do.


I am sorry you feel that way but there is no need to be so crass  Tongue

Please explain what might the difference be between people reading from printed or even hand-written Liturgy books and from them reading the same materials on a screen? Honestly, is it merely the technology that upsets you? The written word is a technological revolution, ask the illiterate, paper is a revolution, remember velum?  The Church had adapted and adopted to technology each generation, and there are always rightful critics and detractors, and while I can understand our Christological disputes, but honestly I don't see how using a PowerPoint is exactly heretical Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.

We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs. Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing. The only bells we should have are real bells, not recordings of bells. There is a reason our churches were originally designed the way they were, and there are reasons why we need to be strict about our architecture.

I'm just frankly sick and tired of liberals and modernists trying to "modernize" things and change things to suit their heterodox desires. We aren't like the heretics and we don't just "modernize" ourselves. Modernism is opposed to Orthodoxy, and is one of the greatest heresies of our day.

Technology has its place, but that doesn't mean we can insert it into our worship services. Our Priests don't read the Gospel from Kindles, and we don't (or shouldn't) paint our icons with modern industrialized paint.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:23:04 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 02:25:54 PM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.

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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 02:26:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.
Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing.


You are splitting hairs and straddling converging and hypocritical views, but you are indeed free to them, but please try to be polite to those who disagree as we will try our best to be polite with you Smiley

why is your nose buried in a book? I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.



This is partly why we switched to the PowerPoint, as the screen is just above the Altar, and our Liturgy is not completely in anyone's native tongue, rather in Ge'ez, hence why there are Amharic and English translations, and truthfully not all Ethiopians even speak Amharic!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 02:28:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.
Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing.


You are splitting hairs and straddling converging and hypocritical views, but you are indeed free to them, but please try to be polite to those who disagree as we will try our best to be polite with you Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 02:38:34 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2012, 02:41:09 PM »

There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do. Protestant and Catholic churches are heretical and we are wrong when we try to emulate them, especially when we implement pews, organs and other instruments.

Yes, we ought not imitate the non-Orthodox, but we also ought to remember that they are heretical for doctrinal reasons, not particular cultural expressions (though of course some things that are argued to be "cultural expressions" may themselves be heretical, e.g., certain veneration of the Mother of God popular among certain peoples and not others). I don't recall any doctrinal significance imparted to the use of the organ in the RCC, and indeed there are some churches within it that will not use it (thankfully).

Quote
Its like the idiots who put lights and such on the iconostasis and turn something that is holy to looking like a neon sign in the red light district.

It's not really like that at all, is it? You can have an organ without being gaudy. I have even seen a video of organ being used in the Syriac Orthodox Church, in a similar fashion to how it might be used by the Greeks (as a "drone" producing instrument). The organ was not given a place of prominence, either geographically or liturgically, in the church.

Quote
No instruments in worship, save for certain Oriental and African parishes who use drums in worship. The walls are meant to be filled with icons, not for a projection of something. White walls should only be temporary, and eventually should be filled up with icons over time.

In my church, the projector is placed in at such an angle that an icon never would be, in a place where people would not look for an icon (as they would have to be gathered opposite the deacons rather than in front of the altar to see it). I imagine that the placement of the projector in most, if perhaps not all, Coptic Churches similarly unobtrusive in terms of how it interacts with the layout of the church. I agree that in a perfect world it would not be there at all, but as it is, I think it is the best of all worlds, given the potential reasons for it being there (the elderly, English-as-a-second-language people, etc). It does not get in the way of the church being filled with icons. If it did, I'm sure abouna would ask to have it taken down.

Quote
Unless your parish comes out of Africa, or is an Oriental Orthodox parish, it should not have any instruments. There should not be any chairs save for a few along the walls for the elderly and the infirm. You can worship God on your feet and on your knees, but you cannot worship him on your butt.

My parish comes out of Africa and is an Oriental Orthodox parish...how about you stop telling other people who aren't even in your church how they can and cannot worship God. The young pregnant woman who shows up to every to liturgy...would you harangue her for not worshiping God on her feet? Or myself, as I am suffering with a long injury that makes it impossible for me to be on my feet for extended periods of time...will God reject my supplications? Please, do tell me what He would do with these cases. You seem to know. You seem to speak for Him.

Quote
Instead of spending money on a projector, you could spend that same money on simple and cheap liturgical books that serve the same purpose, and also on iconography to adorn the walls rather than a fake projection.

In addition to being none of your business, it is also not an "either-or" situation. Our humble meeting place here in Albuquerque has many icons AND a projector, and has chairs (not pews) which are there for those who need them, but do not stop anyone from being able to prostrate as is befitting certain parts of the liturgy, or to stand and pray or do any other thing that is part of the liturgy.

You're out of your element here, Donny., Devin. Focus on your own church and your own struggle, and those who you feel are wrong could use your prayers rather than condemnation, that they might return to the right practice, if you are right about what it is and what it isn't.
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2012, 02:43:26 PM »

Here in Albuquerque, we use powerpoints from St. Mark's in New Jersey (never any instruments beyond the traditional, though; how would you even adapt Coptic chant forms to the organ?). I figure they were here before I got here, so there is no use in complaining about them. Besides, we have several aged members whose eye-sight and command of English (~70% of the liturgy) is probably not the greatest, so having a large screen with all three languages on it is good for them. I have noticed that it does tend to make people overly dependent on it, though. We've never had any slip-ups on the order of abouna's vacation photos showing up, but last weekend one of those infernal "automatic updates" for some part of the computer's system popped up and blocked the text for quite a while as the poor servant who ran the machine tried to get it to go away...almost immediately, the people's part in the hymn dropped out, leaving only the deacons singing straight from the service books, who then of course stopped because they thought they had gone over time and must be intruding on the next part of the liturgy, as the people had stopped. It was quite chaotic...though this kind of chaos is not unknown to us, as we are a very small community, worshiping in an individual home, so a few people being "off" in their part [responding in the wrong language, using the wrong tune, etc.] is really noticeable.

Perhaps the lesson in this is not to despise the screens, but to actually pay attention to what is going on and know your parts regardless. Shamefully, I am just as guilty as anyone, though I find myself more often struggling due to the changes in the melody of a given hymn than problems with the powerpoint (used to chanting the "Hiteniyat" in a certain way, it changes...well, I guess I stand here like an idiot now, just looking at the words, waiting for the invariant part to come back around). I'm hoping this is because of the lingering unfamiliarity of it all, and not a sign that I am as slow to learn as I probably am. Cheesy

It's funny as you hear of the same among opera fans these days.....
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2012, 02:44:45 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:49:35 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2012, 02:46:10 PM »

There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do. Protestant and Catholic churches are heretical and we are wrong when we try to emulate them, especially when we implement pews, organs and other instruments.

Yes, we ought not imitate the non-Orthodox, but we also ought to remember that they are heretical for doctrinal reasons, not particular cultural expressions (though of course some things that are argued to be "cultural expressions" may themselves be heretical, e.g., certain veneration of the Mother of God popular among certain peoples and not others). I don't recall any doctrinal significance imparted to the use of the organ in the RCC, and indeed there are some churches within it that will not use it (thankfully).

Quote
Its like the idiots who put lights and such on the iconostasis and turn something that is holy to looking like a neon sign in the red light district.

It's not really like that at all, is it? You can have an organ without being gaudy. I have even seen a video of organ being used in the Syriac Orthodox Church, in a similar fashion to how it might be used by the Greeks (as a "drone" producing instrument). The organ was not given a place of prominence, either geographically or liturgically, in the church.

Quote
No instruments in worship, save for certain Oriental and African parishes who use drums in worship. The walls are meant to be filled with icons, not for a projection of something. White walls should only be temporary, and eventually should be filled up with icons over time.

In my church, the projector is placed in at such an angle that an icon never would be, in a place where people would not look for an icon (as they would have to be gathered opposite the deacons rather than in front of the altar to see it). I imagine that the placement of the projector in most, if perhaps not all, Coptic Churches similarly unobtrusive in terms of how it interacts with the layout of the church. I agree that in a perfect world it would not be there at all, but as it is, I think it is the best of all worlds, given the potential reasons for it being there (the elderly, English-as-a-second-language people, etc). It does not get in the way of the church being filled with icons. If it did, I'm sure abouna would ask to have it taken down.

Quote
Unless your parish comes out of Africa, or is an Oriental Orthodox parish, it should not have any instruments. There should not be any chairs save for a few along the walls for the elderly and the infirm. You can worship God on your feet and on your knees, but you cannot worship him on your butt.

My parish comes out of Africa and is an Oriental Orthodox parish...how about you stop telling other people who aren't even in your church how they can and cannot worship God. The young pregnant woman who shows up to every to liturgy...would you harangue her for not worshiping God on her feet? Or myself, as I am suffering with a long injury that makes it impossible for me to be on my feet for extended periods of time...will God reject my supplications? Please, do tell me what He would do with these cases. You seem to know. You seem to speak for Him.

Quote
Instead of spending money on a projector, you could spend that same money on simple and cheap liturgical books that serve the same purpose, and also on iconography to adorn the walls rather than a fake projection.

In addition to being none of your business, it is also not an "either-or" situation. Our humble meeting place here in Albuquerque has many icons AND a projector, and has chairs (not pews) which are there for those who need them, but do not stop anyone from being able to prostrate as is befitting certain parts of the liturgy, or to stand and pray or do any other thing that is part of the liturgy.

You're out of your element here, Donny., Devin. Focus on your own church and your own struggle, and those who you feel are wrong could use your prayers rather than condemnation, that they might return to the right practice, if you are right about what it is and what it isn't.

You clearly didn't understand a lot of what I said.... I said its okay to have certain instruments if your parish from Africa or an OO Church, its ok to have chairs, as long as they are only for the infirm, elderly and nursing.
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2012, 02:49:17 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?
No, I call a spade a spade, and your argument has no weight. Slinging mud wont change the fact it took me about 12 seconds to rip your argument to shreds.

Now, if you have some canon, or fathers, or anything authoratative to submit, I would listen to that. Until then, calm down. You're making yourself look silly.
PP
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 02:49:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do.


I am sorry you feel that way but there is no need to be so crass  Tongue

Please explain what might the difference be between people reading from printed or even hand-written Liturgy books and from them reading the same materials on a screen? Honestly, is it merely the technology that upsets you? The written word is a technological revolution, ask the illiterate, paper is a revolution, remember velum?  The Church had adapted and adopted to technology each generation, and there are always rightful critics and detractors, and while I can understand our Christological disputes, but honestly I don't see how using a PowerPoint is exactly heretical Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.

We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs. Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing. The only bells we should have are real bells, not recordings of bells. There is a reason our churches were originally designed the way they were, and there are reasons why we need to be strict about our architecture.

I'm just frankly sick and tired of liberals and modernists trying to "modernize" things and change things to suit their heterodox desires. We aren't like the heretics and we don't just "modernize" ourselves. Modernism is opposed to Orthodoxy, and is one of the greatest heresies of our day.

Technology has its place, but that doesn't mean we can insert it into our worship services. Our Priests don't read the Gospel from Kindles, and we don't (or shouldn't) paint our icons with modern industrialized paint.

I know where you are coming from in spirit, but please - step back a bit as to not become an 'intellectual iconoclast.'

When you start messing with things which, for better or worse have been 't'radition for many you have to tread with caution and move slowly. In both the OCA and ACROD it has taken decades to wean many parishes away from some of the Latinizing innovations which mistakenly became beloved among the people. You just can't come in saying you are going to burn the pews and so on. I have know too many priests who tried that approach and, in the end, only they were 'burned.'

Time does move on and the external experience of the Orthodox way is not static over time and centuries. It may move imperceptibly at times, but it does move. If a small parish can not afford cast bells but a willing parishioner donates a modern synthesizer and amplifier which allows the parish to emulate the beautiful tonal modalities of old Russia, who are you to say 'throw it out' as if that were an 'evil eye.'

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes passion needs to be tamed.
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2012, 02:50:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:50:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2012, 02:52:02 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That you're a Care bear  laugh laugh

PP
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2012, 02:52:06 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2012, 02:52:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It seems a bit contradictory, because on the one hand it refers to you as Rastafarian, and then as Ethiopian Orthodox. You cannot be both, HIM is not God/Christ. You cannot be a Christian and believe that HIM is Christ.
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2012, 02:53:29 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way
Devin still didn't answer my questions.....

PP
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« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2012, 02:54:02 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism. I'm sick of people trying to champion the "university" as some high idea or goal. There is a reason many people go into the university and then fall into all sorts of vice and lose their faith. Instead of being a place where you can lead people to Christ and to the truth, its used to distort the truth, distort the gospel and lead people into liberal ideas and away from God. There is absolutely nothing logical or rational about that.
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2012, 02:55:54 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism.
So, still waiting for the answer to my questions.

PP
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2012, 02:56:40 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism.
So, still waiting for the answer to my questions.

PP

you aren't going to get answers...
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« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2012, 02:57:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It seems a bit contradictory, because on the one hand it refers to you as Rastafarian, and then as Ethiopian Orthodox. You cannot be both, HIM is not God/Christ. You cannot be a Christian and believe that HIM is Christ.

Blah Blah Blah Wink

Quote
Faith:    Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction:    Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2012, 02:58:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It seems a bit contradictory, because on the one hand it refers to you as Rastafarian, and then as Ethiopian Orthodox. You cannot be both, HIM is not God/Christ. You cannot be a Christian and believe that HIM is Christ.

Blah Blah Blah Wink

Quote
Faith:    Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction:    Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

stay blessed,
habte selassie



Then I assume you are Orthodox and not Rastafarian? Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians. Glad to hear you're Orthodox.
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« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2012, 03:02:35 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians. Glad to hear you're Orthodox.
But wait, I thought you just said that Oriental are heretics too? Roll Eyes



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2012, 03:03:37 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians. Glad to hear you're Orthodox.
But wait, I thought you just said that Oriental are heretics too? Roll Eyes



stay blessed,
habte selassie

Nope, never said that. Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox... There is a difference between non-Christians like Rastafarians and Orthodox Christians like the Ethiopian Orthodox.
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« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2012, 03:10:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians. Glad to hear you're Orthodox.
But wait, I thought you just said that Oriental are heretics too? Roll Eyes



stay blessed,
habte selassie

Nope, never said that. Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox... There is a difference between non-Christians like Rastafarians and Orthodox Christians like the Ethiopian Orthodox.

My mistake, I must have misinterpreted this statement


There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical.



If you weren't applying this to Oriental Orthodox, than I sincerely apologize for the misconception Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2012, 03:31:09 PM »

Quote
you aren't going to get answers...
because you can't answer them.

Quote
Nope, never said that. Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox... There is a difference between non-Christians like Rastafarians and Orthodox Christians like the Ethiopian Orthodox
Unless of course, they use projectors.....

PP
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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2012, 03:59:37 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism. I'm sick of people trying to champion the "university" as some high idea or goal. There is a reason many people go into the university and then fall into all sorts of vice and lose their faith. Instead of being a place where you can lead people to Christ and to the truth, its used to distort the truth, distort the gospel and lead people into liberal ideas and away from God. There is absolutely nothing logical or rational about that.

sigh....Good luck. It is said that there is nothing new under the sun and your frustration with our current times has been mirrored by idealists throughout Christian history. We live when we live, it sounds to me as if you are falling under the sway of the 'end-timers'. Just remember the Bridegroom.
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« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2012, 04:10:28 PM »

We start bringing in pews, and organs, and now projectors... Can anyone tell me where to draw the line? How about having electric candles instead of wax ones? Why don't we get rid of candles too? They get wax on the floor and burn my fingers while I'm chanting at Vigil sometimes. Why not make the Holy Mysteries available to be downloaded onto your phone instead of taken at the Chalice? We could just show a picture of bread and wine. It's artificial but still gets the point across, I think.

Seems like a lot of this stuff is for conformity or to make things more convenient. Technology has it's proper place for teaching or to communicate ideas. I don't think it's good for Worship. We can use projectors and organs and other devices to teach people outside of the Liturgy.

That's just my opinion. I've never been in an Orthodox Church with organs and projectors, but the feeling I get in my soul when I think about worshipping with those things is something that doesn't sit well with me. It feels artificial to me. And I don't think I could stay in a parish that had those things.
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« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2012, 04:27:12 PM »

Let me state, I have no problem with folks who want to make sure things like projectors are not in our churches. All I want is a decent argument other than some wild conspiracy theory of "well, just because!" kind of statement.

Its not to convince me or anything, but you have to be able to understand why you believe something, or why you're convicted to do a thing.

My church does not use projectors, and honestly, it would be weird if we started. But please, at least be able to elucidate your opinion.

PP
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« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2012, 08:48:27 PM »

I personally would hope that any event which necessitated using a projector would be something like a class, where they showed a film- and that should be held in the parish community room, the events hall or whatever you have. In other words, not in the sanctuary and not during liturgy. Things like a small clip-on microphone for the priest in my parish is useful, because otherwise people could not hear him. However, there's a fine line between tasteful, reasonable things, and creating the thought that you are in a movie theater. I would err on the side of the less elaborate, the better.
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« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2012, 08:58:33 PM »

I love organs (especially Apparat Organ Quartet!) but I hate them in liturgies.
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« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2012, 09:04:28 PM »

I almost thought this was going to be a thread about organ donation. Oops.  Wink
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« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2012, 09:09:35 PM »

I almost thought this was going to be a thread about organ donation. Oops.  Wink
Something that Im not totally on board with......
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« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2012, 09:42:13 PM »

Surely we can all agree that projectors are ugly and tacky and should be used, if at all, only when they are serving a very necessary purpose?
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« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2012, 09:49:16 PM »

I almost thought this was going to be a thread about organ donation. Oops.  Wink
Perhaps we could suggest that an Orthodox church with organ could (should?) donate it to a needy Protestant or RC church  Wink.
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« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2012, 01:54:14 AM »

Correct me if I am wrong, but the first recorded use of a pneumatic organ was for liturgical use at the Church of the Holy Apostles in Constantinople in the early fourth century: http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/julian_apostate_epigrams.htm.  The first organs in Western Europe were also from Constantinople. One might consider the pneumatic organ an Orthodox musical instrument and it is not surprising that from an early date (ninth century) in Western Europe the organ was mainly installed in churches. If Church fathers complained about organs, maybe they were referring to the earlier hydraulic organs.


Image of a pipe organ depicted on the Constantinople Obelisk, erected by Theodosius in 395 A.D.
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« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2012, 02:15:30 AM »

The fathers rejected the use of instruments in general. Even in the west it was opposed, even though it eventually became prominent. Even Luther disapproved of organs.
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« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2012, 06:06:15 AM »

Surely we can all agree that projectors are ugly and tacky and should be used, if at all, only when they are serving a very necessary purpose?

The concept of 'tacky' seems to be lost on a lot of people, particularly the Orthodox.
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« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2012, 09:17:14 AM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.


I've never used service books during Liturgy, for that exact reason. The only time I have a text in front of me is when I'm attending the akathist at my parish during the week.
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« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2012, 10:30:17 AM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.


I've never used service books during Liturgy, for that exact reason. The only time I have a text in front of me is when I'm attending the akathist at my parish during the week.

In parishes where congregational chant is the preferred mode, rather than choral chanting or performing, it is difficult to expect participation without service books. Many of us can muddle through the 'regular' portions without a book, but when it comes to specific antiphons, troparia, prokeimenon etc...it is unrealistic to dismiss the use of a book by most congregants. Don't keep your 'nose' in the book but don't be afraid to use it either. They are also a great tool for visitors and potential converts. Projected text is over the top, but as books are replaced by tablets, don't be upset when folks come in with apps on their iPads etc... as the years go by....
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« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2012, 11:46:08 AM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.


I've never used service books during Liturgy, for that exact reason. The only time I have a text in front of me is when I'm attending the akathist at my parish during the week.

In parishes where congregational chant is the preferred mode, rather than choral chanting or performing, it is difficult to expect participation without service books. Many of us can muddle through the 'regular' portions without a book, but when it comes to specific antiphons, troparia, prokeimenon etc...it is unrealistic to dismiss the use of a book by most congregants. Don't keep your 'nose' in the book but don't be afraid to use it either. They are also a great tool for visitors and potential converts. Projected text is over the top, but as books are replaced by tablets, don't be upset when folks come in with apps on their iPads etc... as the years go by....


I already use apps and the internet for some more obscure services.
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« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2012, 12:40:08 PM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.


I've never used service books during Liturgy, for that exact reason. The only time I have a text in front of me is when I'm attending the akathist at my parish during the week.

In parishes where congregational chant is the preferred mode, rather than choral chanting or performing, it is difficult to expect participation without service books. Many of us can muddle through the 'regular' portions without a book, but when it comes to specific antiphons, troparia, prokeimenon etc...it is unrealistic to dismiss the use of a book by most congregants. Don't keep your 'nose' in the book but don't be afraid to use it either. They are also a great tool for visitors and potential converts. Projected text is over the top, but as books are replaced by tablets, don't be upset when folks come in with apps on their iPads etc... as the years go by....


Chuckle...reminds me of the weekday Divine Liturgy I attended a few years ago  with the liturgy on my PDA. I got some really weird looks as I prostrated holding that device. Never used it again. Books are better.  Cheesy
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« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2012, 12:42:52 PM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.

I am assuming that your curiosity is genuine. In some respects I fit your example except that after 50 years I do not wonder about why a choir skips over this or that, nor other deletions and additions that are either accidental or deliberate. I never thought of the possibility someone would find reading the Divine Liturgy during the service objectionable and I never thought about why I do it. Without psychoanalyzing myself, I believe it is because it allows me to participate in the Divine Liturgy more fully. It is rewarding on a personal level and helps me. I read at a glance what is going to be said or chanted, I listen, I look up with my eyes only (head still in its original position) in each instance. On a given day, a particular phrase may lead me to contemplation and I leave the book lift my head and take in everything as I contemplate. On occasion this contemplative period extends for some duration and that is when I flip pages to get back to where the service is and that is when I start the process all over again for the help that it provides. When I see people flipping pages of the liturgy book, I usually think it is a good thing.

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« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2012, 03:15:44 PM »

I think in this subject there are two different questions. The first is if the organs or generally instruments in Orthodox sacral music are canonical. The second is if they are necessary.
So, the first one: unfortunately I don’t know well the canons and the patristic scriptures, but some of you mentioned the instruments can’t be used. The exception is the cultural aspect of Oriental Orthodox (personally I really like e.g. Coptic cymbals).
My answer for the second questions is also rather negative. God granted us the voice which we use to exalt Him in the chant. It’s the most beautiful instrument which don’t need any instrumental background like organs. I know quite a lot of roman catholic who attend an Orthodox service just to listen to the chant without any instrument. I also remember the Liturgies of Triduum Paschale when I was roman catholic and from Great Thursday until “alleluia” during the Paschal Vigil the organs weren’t used. The congregational singing (sometimes with help of the parishional choir which generally wasn’t singing!) was so beautiful and moving. Nowadays Western Christianity has a big problem with definitely not traditional instruments such as electric guitar. I can’t imagine playing guitar in Orthodox church. And many people, also young, are disgusted by it, because the Liturgy is not an entertainment, a concert. In Orthodoxy we accentuate that when we enter into a church we enter in a sacral world. For me, using instruments in church is mixing sacrum with profane. I watched a piece of the video and I heard some recordings of Holy Week celebrations from a Greek Orthodox parish in USA which uses in some parts of Liturgy organs. It’s interesting, maybe sometimes sublime, but I don’t see the way it could enrich the liturgical experiences. I also don’t think organs as something ecumenical. We have own tradition, why after centuries we should change something that wouldn’t have rather any positive aspects.
Another topic are the projectors. I know also from my experience when I was roman catholic that they distract the attention from the liturgical action. The better option are bulletins with variable parts of the Liturgy or prayer books.
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« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2012, 05:10:57 PM »

I'm really enjoying this topic.  Very entertaining.

I've grown up with organs being used in Church and they've never been a distraction to me.  In some ways they are helpful in that they help ensure some of the hymns (especially the kontakions, etc) are sung in the correct tones.   

In my current Church, we have an organ, but we don't use it.  We do sing a capella, but do end up having challenges with the changeable hymns, to the point now we only have one person sing them.   

To me, it's all about distraction.  An organ that is overplayed or too loud (because, unfortunately, organists sometimes do have egos) is distracting.  When done tastefully and as an accompanyment, then it can be good.   An a capella choir that sings out of tune or not together can just as distracting to me as well.   And, finally, chanting can be beautiful, but not every Church has trained Chanters.  A Chanter that sings the wrong tones and doesn't flow with the service is also distracting, as is a great Chanter who takes 15 seconds to chant, "Lord Have Mercy". 

Our Orthodox Services have an incredible rythymn, and anything that detracts from that rythymn distracts from the service.  If a Church needs an organ to avoid that, then use it.  If a Chanter is needed because the Choir struggles, use the Chanter.   

I struggle with absolute statements that organs aren't cannonical, because I'm not sure they are or are not, and we know that there are a number of cannons we don't follow.    The cannons don't refer to electric lighting, pews, or microphones, but we do use them and do fine with them. 

Projection?  I've never seen that used, but if I was a Priest I may actually incorporate it every once an a while as an accompaniment to my sermon, but not part of the liturgy.   In today's day and age, people are used to and expect visual reinforcements.   Incorporating them, in order to help enhance or reinforce a message is not bad thing.
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« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2012, 05:20:39 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I can’t imagine playing guitar in Orthodox church.


haha its so true.  I play guitar.  I teach the young adult Sunday School program.  We've been trying to organize youth activities, and I have had the idea to use my acoustic guitar to play our Mezmur (not at Liturgy, not in the Church, but at these extracurricular activities in the same way we might have a DJ playing music for entertainment) which I already do at home for myself.  Ethiopian hymnal is in the pentatonic like most African music, it is essentially the blues, and I come from blues bands, so it was a natural and even spontaneous fit when I stumbled into playing Ethiopian music almost by accident.

 However, when I asked around all my friends from the Choir if they would help me on the side practice some Mezmur to get it down better, there was not only ZERO positive responses, but indeed mostly negative and reactionary responses.  The guitar then was clearly a touchy issue, even when mechanically, I would suppose the acoustic guitar actually fits in better theologically with Ethiopian instruments such as the Krar then does the electric keyboard, as the Krar is a stringed instrument (symbolically the strings represent the long hair of Our Lady, the neck represents her sturdy spine which stood upright for prayer in Faith) and I highly doubt Pythagoras (who was himself terrified by horns which he thought were entirely of the Devil let alone electronic instruments) would approve of the keys in this sense.

Alas, I had to concede utter defeat before folks started to gossip and misunderstand completely my intentions. I never wanted to bring the guitar into the Divine Liturgy, or even into the Church building at all, rather to play it with my students at other functions, but no body was feeling it!

The guitar and the Orthodox seem to be a non-starter, which may offend my musical sentiments, but which I can absolutely understand.

In regards to folks misunderstanding using books or even PowerPoint, perhaps y'all are from spoiled traditions where the Liturgy is sung in a vernacular language, but in our Ethiopian tradition, even the priests sometimes don't fully comprehend what is being chanted so much as can simply read the letters and sing the words.  Ge'ez hasn't been a spoken language for over 600 years, and while there are many cognates with Ge'ez and Amharic and other Ethiopian languages (similar to Latin to Spanish for example) there are also glaring gaps.  If we don't know the depths of the meaning of the texts, how are we guided therapeutically by their meanings which the Fathers compiled? The words of the Liturgy are like therapy, the guide our meditation and prayers to understand the depth of what should be experiencing.  Yes, we can still feel the Holy Spirit even if we do not comprehend a single word (I can vouch for this from direct, personal experience) however when ones do know the words, the meaning conveyed is even deeper and magnified (I can also vouch for this since)

Further, with just a few years of effort, ones can learn the entire Liturgy by heart as if they were a priest with just a minimal effort of reading along with a book or PowerPoint accompanying, which is how at my parish we ALL seem to know every word, and we all sing our responses.  The Choir point made is highly relevant, in the Ethiopian Tradition we do not have a specific choir to sing the People's portions and response of the Liturgy, rather we ALL as a parish sing these words TOGETHER.  It is then important obviously that in time folks learn and understand these words, since we are singing them for the duration of our lives, and indeed, we in our tradition believe we will sing these same words in the Kingdom Age.  

Also, correct me if I am wrong people, but don't the PRIESTS read along using the books? Why should we scorn their example as if using books was then tacky or worse? Do we judge them for having not memorized the entire Liturgy?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2012, 06:19:25 PM »



Also, correct me if I am wrong people, but don't the PRIESTS read along using the books? Why should we scorn their example as if using books was then tacky or worse? Do we judge them for having not memorized the entire Liturgy?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

As a word of explanation, dear friend: Yes, priests keep a book open nearby - it's too easy to have a momentary lapse or distraction. As for the congregation, I'd really like to see more people set the books aside and simply pay attention to the flow of the service and the visual and verbal cues that are part of the Liturgy. I'm appalled at the number of people in my congregation who have books opened up but remain seated even where it says "The people stand" when, for example, the priest gives a blessing. They seem so busy looking at the words that they don't seem to be thinking about the service. I say that in pity for them, not in condemnation. I really think they're missing a lot. The whole visual impact of worship was one of the key points in drawing me into Orthodoxy.

Now, I serve as a chanter, so I have to keep my book open in front of me all the time - too many new things each week, and I'm prone to the same lapses as the priest. But that's one of the reasons the chanters are there - to act as prompters for the people. We will give them the verbal cues they need to sing along the recurring portions of the Liturgy and to say the Creed and many of the prayers that are said together. Every once in a while I like to take a Sunday vacation from my chanting responsibilities and just participate as a member of the congregation - free from the distraction of a book.

I usually suggest to visitors that for the first time or two that they not take a book - but just observe. Later, to participate more they can use a book until fairly comfortable with the services and then rely on the visual cues and the verbal cues from the chanters.
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« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2012, 06:27:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus CHrist!



As a word of explanation, dear friend: Yes, priests keep a book open nearby - it's too easy to have a momentary lapse or distraction. As for the congregation, I'd really like to see more people set the books aside and simply pay attention to the flow of the service and the visual and verbal cues that are part of the Liturgy. I'm appalled at the number of people in my congregation who have books opened up but remain seated even where it says "The people stand" when, for example, the priest gives a blessing. They seem so busy looking at the words that they don't seem to be thinking about the service. I say that in pity for them, not in condemnation. I really think they're missing a lot. The whole visual impact of worship was one of the key points in drawing me into Orthodoxy.

Now, I serve as a chanter, so I have to keep my book open in front of me all the time - too many new things each week, and I'm prone to the same lapses as the priest. But that's one of the reasons the chanters are there - to act as prompters for the people. We will give them the verbal cues they need to sing along the recurring portions of the Liturgy and to say the Creed and many of the prayers that are said together. [/quote]

A) How do you know that the people are not attentively following along in the Spirit when they are reading the very words being prayed? Perhaps they are absorbing the depth of prayer and meaning underlying those words, just as we all do once we already have them committed to heart?

B) That is the result of a difference in jurisdictional traditions, in Ethiopian tradition we don't rely on Cantors for the Liturgy (to be sure we do have them but their position is minimal, and in my parish they aren't even visible but say the prayers from the sound room in the back!) rather all the people are expected to learn their parts as best as a lifetime can afford one to learn.  So folks like to learn the words as much as the flow.  Also it is a tangible result of literacy, before folks in the world largely could read, of course the congregations didn't use books, but now we can mostly read, and so like follow along Smiley

C) To the Copts, I thought it was so interesting that Egyptians are using Liturgy books to follow along here in the US because the services may be in English which some folks don't speak, whereas in Ethiopian parishes it is the opposite, we follow along because the Liturgy is in Ge'ez, which NOBODY speaks and so we read along translations into our respective vernaculars.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2012, 08:09:46 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus CHrist!



As a word of explanation, dear friend: Yes, priests keep a book open nearby - it's too easy to have a momentary lapse or distraction. As for the congregation, I'd really like to see more people set the books aside and simply pay attention to the flow of the service and the visual and verbal cues that are part of the Liturgy. I'm appalled at the number of people in my congregation who have books opened up but remain seated even where it says "The people stand" when, for example, the priest gives a blessing. They seem so busy looking at the words that they don't seem to be thinking about the service. I say that in pity for them, not in condemnation. I really think they're missing a lot. The whole visual impact of worship was one of the key points in drawing me into Orthodoxy.

A) How do you know that the people are not attentively following along in the Spirit when they are reading the very words being prayed? Perhaps they are absorbing the depth of prayer and meaning underlying those words, just as we all do once we already have them committed to heart?

Of course I don't "know" what's in their hearts which is why I used the verb "seem". I also gave one example to point out how I came to my conclusion. I'll let you decide how much they've absorbed by considering this: when there is a service for which there is no book, many people don't know basic things such as to stand for the reading of the Gospel.

I will also point out that merely committing the words of the services to heart does not necessarily mean that one has absorbed "the depth of prayer and meaning underlying those words". If you are in a congregation where you can confidently say "we all do" to these things, then glory to God! But that's not my reality, and I don't expect it to be.

I merely point out that a book can be as limiting to worship as pews or an organ that replaces the human voice, though all of these things may be useful in the right time and place.
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« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2012, 09:28:16 PM »

I'm really enjoying this topic.  Very entertaining.

I've grown up with organs being used in Church and they've never been a distraction to me.  In some ways they are helpful in that they help ensure some of the hymns (especially the kontakions, etc) are sung in the correct tones.   

In my current Church, we have an organ, but we don't use it.  We do sing a capella, but do end up having challenges with the changeable hymns, to the point now we only have one person sing them.   

To me, it's all about distraction.  An organ that is overplayed or too loud (because, unfortunately, organists sometimes do have egos) is distracting.  When done tastefully and as an accompanyment, then it can be good.   An a capella choir that sings out of tune or not together can just as distracting to me as well.   And, finally, chanting can be beautiful, but not every Church has trained Chanters.  A Chanter that sings the wrong tones and doesn't flow with the service is also distracting, as is a great Chanter who takes 15 seconds to chant, "Lord Have Mercy". 

Our Orthodox Services have an incredible rythymn, and anything that detracts from that rythymn distracts from the service.  If a Church needs an organ to avoid that, then use it.  If a Chanter is needed because the Choir struggles, use the Chanter.   

I struggle with absolute statements that organs aren't cannonical, because I'm not sure they are or are not, and we know that there are a number of cannons we don't follow.    The cannons don't refer to electric lighting, pews, or microphones, but we do use them and do fine with them. 

Projection?  I've never seen that used, but if I was a Priest I may actually incorporate it every once an a while as an accompaniment to my sermon, but not part of the liturgy.   In today's day and age, people are used to and expect visual reinforcements.   Incorporating them, in order to help enhance or reinforce a message is not bad thing.

Welcome to the forum! BTW, I like your way of thinking. Alas, I am too old and hidebound to start getting used to musical instruments, except when it is used to give us the starting notes. I must confess though that sometimes I wish we did have a piano or electric organ discreetly accompanying the choir/us; when a capella goes off key, it is worse than distracting, it is just horrible.
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« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2012, 10:34:23 PM »

We start bringing in pews, and organs, and now projectors... Can anyone tell me where to draw the line? How about having electric candles instead of wax ones? Why don't we get rid of candles too? They get wax on the floor and burn my fingers while I'm chanting at Vigil sometimes. Why not make the Holy Mysteries available to be downloaded onto your phone instead of taken at the Chalice? We could just show a picture of bread and wine. It's artificial but still gets the point across, I think.

Seems like a lot of this stuff is for conformity or to make things more convenient. Technology has it's proper place for teaching or to communicate ideas. I don't think it's good for Worship. We can use projectors and organs and other devices to teach people outside of the Liturgy.

That's just my opinion. I've never been in an Orthodox Church with organs and projectors, but the feeling I get in my soul when I think about worshipping with those things is something that doesn't sit well with me. It feels artificial to me. And I don't think I could stay in a parish that had those things.

This was my understanding of Orthodoxy as well and I agree with your opinion.   I was shocked to see the organ being used.

As we all know, the great schism was party caused by 3 simple words "and the son" of filioque, yet the worship and prayers sung has an organ background and is accepted.

Does artificial lighting lead to more tolerance of pews?
Does more tolerance to pews lead to tolerance to no beards?
Does no beards give tolerance to IPAD liturgy books?
Does IPAD liturgy books give tolerance to power point liturgy projectors?
Does power point liturgy projectors give tolerance to electric candles?

OF course, this could go on to just sticking a can of air freshener on a censor, a boom box instead of a choir, and a laptop on the altar with a priest video conferencing in.  Wink

Okay, I know it wouldn't go that far, but I was shocked to find that video of the organ being used.

The preservation of the Orthodox hymns as they have been sung through the ages would seem to me to be very important to the Orthodox.  The church was supposed to be "unchanged" without the patriarch of Rome's vote.... My understanding of Orthodoxy was supposed to be "the preservation of faith & the church".   Organs being used in worship would seem like a drastic change.

I'm curious if that was the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew in the video.  It really looked like him.

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« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2012, 10:41:30 PM »



Also, correct me if I am wrong people, but don't the PRIESTS read along using the books? Why should we scorn their example as if using books was then tacky or worse? Do we judge them for having not memorized the entire Liturgy?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

As a word of explanation, dear friend: Yes, priests keep a book open nearby - it's too easy to have a momentary lapse or distraction. As for the congregation, I'd really like to see more people set the books aside and simply pay attention to the flow of the service and the visual and verbal cues that are part of the Liturgy. I'm appalled at the number of people in my congregation who have books opened up but remain seated even where it says "The people stand" when, for example, the priest gives a blessing. They seem so busy looking at the words that they don't seem to be thinking about the service. I say that in pity for them, not in condemnation. I really think they're missing a lot. The whole visual impact of worship was one of the key points in drawing me into Orthodoxy.

Now, I serve as a chanter, so I have to keep my book open in front of me all the time - too many new things each week, and I'm prone to the same lapses as the priest. But that's one of the reasons the chanters are there - to act as prompters for the people. We will give them the verbal cues they need to sing along the recurring portions of the Liturgy and to say the Creed and many of the prayers that are said together. Every once in a while I like to take a Sunday vacation from my chanting responsibilities and just participate as a member of the congregation - free from the distraction of a book.

I usually suggest to visitors that for the first time or two that they not take a book - but just observe. Later, to participate more they can use a book until fairly comfortable with the services and then rely on the visual cues and the verbal cues from the chanters.

I don't blame priests for having their books opened nearby.... There is SO much stuff prayed privately.  If you ever get a chance to see their books (if you have not already), it is quite amazing the stuff they say in private while other stuff is going on.  Some of it is really quite beautiful and very spiritually deep.   I don't think I could memorize all of it even if I did it every Sunday for years.   I mean even going all the way to the table of Oblation on through the liturgy there is LOTS of beautiful things prayed & stuff going on.
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« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2012, 10:47:48 PM »

All of these "slippery slope" questions/arguments actually seem pretty easy to address. Like someone else said about having never been to a Coptic liturgy where there wasn't a projector, and yes, there are a variety of opinions about that (I personally would be in favor of getting rid of them, but I understand the reasons why they're there), but it hasn't actually led to an acceptance of more innovations/deviations like electric candles and beardless priests. So it would seem that the answer is "no", but it is good to see that people are still on guard about these things, since we don't want what little has been brought in to be an open door for even more things. (Keeping in mind that some people are already not happy with the projectors.)
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« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2012, 11:31:27 PM »

I'd be curious what some of you thought about liturgy being filmed & streamed online?
Or perhaps filmed once for youtube or something like that...

How about confessions over Email (I've actually KNOW of a somebody who did this, that but it was an established situation between the clergy & layman)?  Telephone?

See, some of these things I would not see mattering in entirety, as there has to be some variables to being practical.  Situational circumstances happen all the time worldwide.   

The original video I posted though seemed like a deliberate "change", as I have not known of Orthodoxy (outside of groups of OO that use drums) to EVER use anything but their voices for prayer.

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« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2012, 12:37:09 AM »

I thought that organs were not terribly uncommon (or at least certainly not as uncommon as some in this thread would like them to be) among the Greeks in the USA? I hate to make you more upset, but I have record albums in my library dating back to the 1950s of Greek Orthodox hymns that feature the organ quite prominently, as in the video you've posted.

The cymbals in the COC keep the measure and proper rhythm of the chants in which they are used, and I'm told that the drums used by the Habesha serve a similar purpose, so I'm not sure if it's right to think of them as instrumental decoration, or at least not any more than a metronome would be (though I know that they also have a spiritual significance, so again, it's not really a matter of arguing about the use of "instruments").
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« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2012, 02:39:01 AM »

I thought that organs were not terribly uncommon (or at least certainly not as uncommon as some in this thread would like them to be) among the Greeks in the USA? I hate to make you more upset, but I have record albums in my library dating back to the 1950s of Greek Orthodox hymns that feature the organ quite prominently, as in the video you've posted.

The cymbals in the COC keep the measure and proper rhythm of the chants in which they are used, and I'm told that the drums used by the Habesha serve a similar purpose, so I'm not sure if it's right to think of them as instrumental decoration, or at least not any more than a metronome would be (though I know that they also have a spiritual significance, so again, it's not really a matter of arguing about the use of "instruments").

Organs are used, but they aren't supposed to be. Many Western Innovations have crept into some Orthodox Churches, the organ and the pew just being two. It is truly very sad.
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« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2012, 02:44:55 AM »

We start bringing in pews, and organs, and now projectors... Can anyone tell me where to draw the line? How about having electric candles instead of wax ones? Why don't we get rid of candles too? They get wax on the floor and burn my fingers while I'm chanting at Vigil sometimes. Why not make the Holy Mysteries available to be downloaded onto your phone instead of taken at the Chalice? We could just show a picture of bread and wine. It's artificial but still gets the point across, I think.

Seems like a lot of this stuff is for conformity or to make things more convenient. Technology has it's proper place for teaching or to communicate ideas. I don't think it's good for Worship. We can use projectors and organs and other devices to teach people outside of the Liturgy.

That's just my opinion. I've never been in an Orthodox Church with organs and projectors, but the feeling I get in my soul when I think about worshipping with those things is something that doesn't sit well with me. It feels artificial to me. And I don't think I could stay in a parish that had those things.

This was my understanding of Orthodoxy as well and I agree with your opinion.   I was shocked to see the organ being used.

As we all know, the great schism was party caused by 3 simple words "and the son" of filioque, yet the worship and prayers sung has an organ background and is accepted.

Does artificial lighting lead to more tolerance of pews?
Does more tolerance to pews lead to tolerance to no beards?
Does no beards give tolerance to IPAD liturgy books?
Does IPAD liturgy books give tolerance to power point liturgy projectors?
Does power point liturgy projectors give tolerance to electric candles?

OF course, this could go on to just sticking a can of air freshener on a censor, a boom box instead of a choir, and a laptop on the altar with a priest video conferencing in.  Wink

Okay, I know it wouldn't go that far, but I was shocked to find that video of the organ being used.

The preservation of the Orthodox hymns as they have been sung through the ages would seem to me to be very important to the Orthodox.  The church was supposed to be "unchanged" without the patriarch of Rome's vote.... My understanding of Orthodoxy was supposed to be "the preservation of faith & the church".   Organs being used in worship would seem like a drastic change.

I'm curious if that was the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew in the video.  It really looked like him.



Why are organs a drastic change?  That seems to me to be a drastic statement.  Again, I don't prefer organs, but they play the same hymns.  They don't of themselves change the melodys.   And, which hymns are you looking to preserve? The ones sung by the ROCR, the GOA, the OCA, etc.?  Go to any Church and you'll find some variation in the way the hymns are chanted?  Why? Because they're chanted by humans who tend to deviate.

I'm not sure there really is a pure, authoritative source on hymnology.  While the hymns are similar, the chanter, choir, organist ALL tend to sing/play them to their own interpretations....
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« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2012, 02:46:20 AM »

ok I've seen an organ once in an Orthodox Church.  The neatest piece, Bortiansky's Cherubic Hymn in Greek accompanied by an organ.  Not for nothing, the fact that there were probably 1000 people in the pews made me feel like I was home. When I was Greek Catholic and had to attend Roman CAtholic churches because of the places I lived (didn't have Greek Catholic churches) they used the organ and usually had upwards of a thousand people at mass.  Hey, organ or not that congregation was awesome.
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« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2012, 02:51:06 AM »

I thought that organs were not terribly uncommon (or at least certainly not as uncommon as some in this thread would like them to be) among the Greeks in the USA? I hate to make you more upset, but I have record albums in my library dating back to the 1950s of Greek Orthodox hymns that feature the organ quite prominently, as in the video you've posted.

The cymbals in the COC keep the measure and proper rhythm of the chants in which they are used, and I'm told that the drums used by the Habesha serve a similar purpose, so I'm not sure if it's right to think of them as instrumental decoration, or at least not any more than a metronome would be (though I know that they also have a spiritual significance, so again, it's not really a matter of arguing about the use of "instruments").

Organs are used, but they aren't supposed to be. Many Western Innovations have crept into some Orthodox Churches, the organ and the pew just being two. It is truly very sad.

I guess it's perspective.  The organ and pew haven't made me sad, and I don't think of myself as less of an Orthodox Christian when I attend a Church that has them.  

It seems to me that Orthodoxy has always adopted some bit of custom or traditions, many ethnically based, from many different country's.    At the end of the day, they are all little "t's"' not big "T's"....
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« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2012, 03:06:06 AM »

what makes me sadder than pews or organs is that I don't see enough matthew 25 stuff going on in our parishes.

What about coat drives, food drives, etc... or just do it on your own.  That's the best way, just drop off some food at the food bank or what not, don't say anything and don't tell anyone you did it.

I started a food drive, the people would go into the hall before liturgy and leave it on the table and then I'd take it up to the women's shelter, hand it over and leave. 

Simple stuff, but Christ said this was the most important stuff.  And no, not the kind of giving to the poor that involves a committee and a church budget, just something simple done without notice.
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« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2012, 03:13:41 AM »

what makes me sadder than pews or organs is that I don't see enough matthew 25 stuff going on in our parishes.

What about coat drives, food drives, etc... or just do it on your own.  That's the best way, just drop off some food at the food bank or what not, don't say anything and don't tell anyone you did it.

I started a food drive, the people would go into the hall before liturgy and leave it on the table and then I'd take it up to the women's shelter, hand it over and leave. 

Simple stuff, but Christ said this was the most important stuff.  And no, not the kind of giving to the poor that involves a committee and a church budget, just something simple done without notice.

Best and most relevant thing said in this entire thread.  Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2012, 03:20:50 AM »

Rastafarians are heretics and are not Christians.

You mean like these EO's?

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_27/Songs_of_Freedom.pdf
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« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2012, 03:24:18 AM »

You haven't read the fathers if you think organs in church is ok.

You also can't worship God on you rear end, you should only be sitting if you are elderly, infirm, injured, or a nursing mother.

It's sick that even Greek churches in Greece have hundreds of seats. We need to kick out this western influences. The Greeks were to heavily influenced by Roman Catholicism and the Russians were too influenced by the heretical Czar Peter I.
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« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2012, 03:28:08 AM »

what makes me sadder than pews or organs is that I don't see enough matthew 25 stuff going on in our parishes.

What about coat drives, food drives, etc... or just do it on your own.  That's the best way, just drop off some food at the food bank or what not, don't say anything and don't tell anyone you did it.

I started a food drive, the people would go into the hall before liturgy and leave it on the table and then I'd take it up to the women's shelter, hand it over and leave. 

Simple stuff, but Christ said this was the most important stuff.  And no, not the kind of giving to the poor that involves a committee and a church budget, just something simple done without notice.

Best and most relevant thing said in this entire thread.  Lord have mercy.

Thank you.  At least you listened, I think not helping people in light of matthew 25 and arguing about whether the church fathers think organs are ok (they didn't even know what an organ was, but they knew to take the poor old lady up the street some bread) is what the devil makes of idle hands.
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« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2012, 03:30:00 AM »

I stand by my statement, Rastafarians are heretics, just like Nestorians, Arians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

EO and OO are Orthodox, Rastafarians are neither, and aren't even Christians. To be a Christian you must adhere to the beliefs set forth by the apostolic fathers, and shown forth in the Creed.
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« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2012, 03:31:41 AM »

what makes me sadder than pews or organs is that I don't see enough matthew 25 stuff going on in our parishes.

What about coat drives, food drives, etc... or just do it on your own.  That's the best way, just drop off some food at the food bank or what not, don't say anything and don't tell anyone you did it.

I started a food drive, the people would go into the hall before liturgy and leave it on the table and then I'd take it up to the women's shelter, hand it over and leave. 

Simple stuff, but Christ said this was the most important stuff.  And no, not the kind of giving to the poor that involves a committee and a church budget, just something simple done without notice.

Best and most relevant thing said in this entire thread.  Lord have mercy.

Thank you.  At least you listened, I think not helping people in light of matthew 25 and arguing about whether the church fathers think organs are ok (they didn't even know what an organ was, but they knew to take the poor old lady up the street some bread) is what the devil makes of idle hands.

It's undeniable, the fathers were against instruments in worship other than the human voice. The organ is an instrument and doesn't belong in worship.
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« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2012, 04:07:13 AM »

I stand by my statement, Rastafarians are heretics, just like Nestorians, Arians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

EO and OO are Orthodox, Rastafarians are neither, and aren't even Christians. To be a Christian you must adhere to the beliefs set forth by the apostolic fathers, and shown forth in the Creed.

Do you really believe that all Rastas have identical beliefs?  The Rastas on this board have explained ad nauseam how not all Rastas worship HIM. 

Do you really believe the Serbian priest in the article I linked above was in error to bring that couple into Orthodoxy?  Do you really think, after reading their interview, that they are heretics?
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« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2012, 11:15:49 AM »

I stand by my statement, Rastafarians are heretics, just like Nestorians, Arians, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc...

EO and OO are Orthodox, Rastafarians are neither, and aren't even Christians. To be a Christian you must adhere to the beliefs set forth by the apostolic fathers, and shown forth in the Creed.

Do you really believe that all Rastas have identical beliefs?  The Rastas on this board have explained ad nauseam how not all Rastas worship HIM. 

Do you really believe the Serbian priest in the article I linked above was in error to bring that couple into Orthodoxy?  Do you really think, after reading their interview, that they are heretics?

Protestants and Roman Catholics are in heresy as well, if they become Orthodox, they are no longer of their own denomination or beliefs...

Worshipping HIM is apostasy, smoking marijuana is a sin, and just being a vegan and living simply and growing things at home, etc... Doesn't make you a Rasta...
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« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2012, 12:13:21 PM »


Do you really believe that all Rastas have identical beliefs?  The Rastas on this board have explained ad nauseam how not all Rastas worship HIM. 

Do you really believe the Serbian priest in the article I linked above was in error to bring that couple into Orthodoxy?  Do you really think, after reading their interview, that they are heretics?

Protestants and Roman Catholics are in heresy as well, if they become Orthodox, they are no longer of their own denomination or beliefs...


I'm not sure that Protestantism and Catholicism are good analogies to Rastafari.


Quote
Worshipping HIM is apostasy, smoking marijuana is a sin, and just being a vegan and living simply and growing things at home, etc... Doesn't make you a Rasta...

And we know that many Rastas do not worship HIM.  To continue to accuse them of that when they have specifically disavowed it is disingenuous.  The Serbian Orthodox couple in the article clearly don't worship anyone except the Holy Trinity.  The same can be said for Gebre and Habte.  Yet you continue to accuse them of something they don't do.  That robs you of credibility.  If you want to say that Rastas can't ever be Orthodox Christians, that's fine as long as you can make your argument based upon real facts, not a straw man.
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« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2012, 12:56:56 PM »

For myself, as I am one of those who is uncomfortable with this idea of Rastafarian Orthodox, what gets me is not that they might worship HIM (I know that no one who is Orthodox would do so), but the associated cultural baggage that is brought into the church as a result of incorporating or attempting to incorporate a racialist, ahistorical pseudo-spirituality into Orthodoxy, where it is foreign. Attempts to legitimize Rastafarianism within the Church are bad for basically the same reasons that it would be bad to try to set up a Beatnik Orthodox faction, or a Punk Rock Orthodox faction, or whatever, within the Church. The Church is not a battleground for your identity politics, no matter what they are, and especially since Rastafarianism has this spiritual and political component built into it, it blurs lines that ought not be blurred. How much bandwith has been spent here trying to disentangle the continued use of phrases like "JAH RASTAFARI" by those of us here who claim both Orthodox and Rastafarian identities? In Orthodoxy, is Ras Tafari considered to be Jah? Of course not, yet they still use it and give its own flavor in an attempt to make it acceptable.

It does not seem to me as though it can be acceptable, and as I've written before, God-willing Rastafarianism will never be acceptable within the church. It is a foreign ideology, invented nearly two centuries after our Lord Christ walked the earth and disciples of his disciples and apostles brought the holy and perfect faith to Ethiopia. It ought to have no relation whatsoever to anything Orthodox but that some have been brought out of it into Orthodoxy. (That's the key, the "out of it" part...)
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« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2012, 01:32:54 PM »

I recall a while back that in the EO Church there was something of a "punks to monks" movement.  (Someone correct me if I got the name wrong.)  It involved, among other things, the publication of a magazine called Death to the World.  I think it was controversial, with some people strongly criticizing it.  And yet from what I understand it did bring some street kids into the Orthodox Church.

I agree that the Church should not become a "Punk Orthodox Church," or a "Rastafari Orthodox Church."  However, there have been clergy in both the OO and EO Churches who have evangelized, and won over to Christ, people from these movements, when most persons out there would rather reject them outright.  I think this is admirable.  The angels rejoice over the salvation of a sinner, regardless of his subculture.  The question then becomes whether these converts should be forced to completely abandon the subculture they came from.  I think the clergy who have evangelized them realized that this would be too heavy a burden and did not require it, as long as the converts abandoned beliefs that were heretical and replaced them with Orthodox faith.  I don't see what is wrong with this, as long as the cultural aspects that are retained are not inconsistent with Orthodoxy. 

 

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« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2012, 02:14:37 PM »

It went away because they were making a show out of themselves- using shock value tactics while pretending to mock the same.

People would be attracted to those 'Death to the World' shirts because they looked like the cover of a black metal album. It has skulls! Cool!

Come on, already. People liked it because they thought it was a sick joke about killing everybody in the world. Not the best Christian advertising I can think of.
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« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2012, 02:18:30 PM »

^ I had no idea that was what became of it.   Shocked
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« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2012, 02:50:02 PM »

I agree that the Church should not become a "Punk Orthodox Church," or a "Rastafari Orthodox Church."  However, there have been clergy in both the OO and EO Churches who have evangelized, and won over to Christ, people from these movements, when most persons out there would rather reject them outright.  I think this is admirable.  The angels rejoice over the salvation of a sinner, regardless of his subculture.  The question then becomes whether these converts should be forced to completely abandon the subculture they came from.  I think the clergy who have evangelized them realized that this would be too heavy a burden and did not require it, as long as the converts abandoned beliefs that were heretical and replaced them with Orthodox faith.  I don't see what is wrong with this, as long as the cultural aspects that are retained are not inconsistent with Orthodoxy.

I'll let biro's comment make short work of that "punks to monks" thing (though as someone who spent their teenage years in that whole scene, I must say I find this idea incredibly dumb), and deal with what you've written here by agreeing and saying that the key is in jettisoning what is incompatible with Orthodoxy. So I do not for a minute seek criticize those who do the important work evangelizing people from every culture and subculture. I think that's great. I just worry, from the interactions I've had with some of the Rastafarians on this board, that the residual effect of having come to the Church through these movements is not so much a discarding of what may be incompatible, but a re-imagining of what is actually incompatible as somehow being compatible (e.g., the "Jah Rastafari" example above).

I say like the music, be inspired by it or by ideals it has made you think about or whatever, but just leave it outside of the Church. Don't try to make "Rastafarian Orthodox" or "Harry Potter Orthodox" or "British Scooter Enthusiast Orthodox" (yeah, I suck and am really running out ideas), or whatever your THING is into distinct movements to be blessed by Orthodoxy.  They're not. The Church is the ark of salvation in a world full of such worthless pleasures, not a fast track to realizing some Caribbean's idea of Ethiopia, or some punk kid's newest fashionable rebellion against the mainstream (not that Orthodoxy isn't very much against the dominant ethos...), or some other glorified social club for people who have similar political ideas, musical tastes, hairstyles, etc. None of that belongs in the Church, where there is neither Rasta nor Greek.
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« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2012, 03:04:07 PM »

Long past-due self-edit (too late to change it via the "modify" button): In the response previous to the most recent, I accidentally wrote "invented nearly two centuries" when I meant "nearly two millennia". A pretty big difference. I know anyone reading would understand what I meant, but honestly these kinds of mistakes do still bother me.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2012, 03:11:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Can someone please explain to me how this thread has devolved into a debate about Rastafari when the OP is about organs in the Church?

Further, why are folks so dismissive of the Orthodox punx?

Oi Oi! Up the punx if the punx are united we can never be divided boneheadz out out of punk!!

Many folks have a problem with disregarding or dismissive cultures which they don't understand. I come from both backgrounds, Rastafari within the Orthodox Church AND punks from the Orthodox Church, and I can tell you personally its not fair to judge these cultures so harshly as if we were heretics.  I don't recall mohawks OR dreadlocks being forbidden by any Canons Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #100 on: February 11, 2012, 03:18:46 PM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.
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« Reply #101 on: February 11, 2012, 03:19:58 PM »

Way to totally miss the point/confirm me in my skepticism, Habte. Now quit talking as though I'm dismissing people out of hand when I also mentioned that the whole punk rock thing is part of my background, too. Neither of us are the arbiters of what is acceptable canonically or what have you, but to me that is all the more reason not to mix whatever you're into with the church. God doesn't care about your record collection. I guarantee you that if I were to show up to St. Bishoy's in two weeks with a big green mohawk and combat boots and studded leather I would not only look stupid, they would most certainly have a problem with it, and I would be very harshly disciplined (and rightly so!) for telling them "I don't recall mohawks OR dreads being forbidden by any canons".

For the record, I wrote my initial response about Rastafarianism because Salpy rightly reminded Devin that not all people claiming Rastafarianism worship HIM as God. I wanted to show that there are other reasons to be uncomfortable with the association of Rastafarianism with Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #102 on: February 11, 2012, 03:25:46 PM »

I guess I've gotten used to the organ accompanying the choir at my parish. I always get surprised whenever the organ player is on vacation and you notice it because the priest has to chant the opening blessing with no accompaniment.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2012, 03:34:24 PM »

Way to totally miss the point/confirm me in my skepticism, Habte. Now quit talking as though I'm dismissing people out of hand when I also mentioned that the whole punk rock thing is part of my background, too. Neither of us are the arbiters of what is acceptable canonically or what have you, but to me that is all the more reason not to mix whatever you're into with the church. God doesn't care about your record collection. I guarantee you that if I were to show up to St. Bishoy's in two weeks with a big green mohawk and combat boots and studded leather I would not only look stupid, they would most certainly have a problem with it, and I would be very harshly disciplined (and rightly so!) for telling them "I don't recall mohawks OR dreads being forbidden by any canons".

For the record, I wrote my initial response about Rastafarianism because Salpy rightly reminded Devin that not all people claiming Rastafarianism worship HIM as God. I wanted to show that there are other reasons to be uncomfortable with the association of Rastafarianism with Orthodoxy.

I think you're the one missing the point- sure, if you, being who you are now were to show up with a green mohawk, your parish would rightly suspect you were doing it for attention or to push the boundaries of what they think is acceptable. The question is, should you have been ostracized if you were to show up as you had been then? Should growing out the hair on the sides of your head to match the strip on top and dying your hair back to its normal color be the standard for acceptance by the parish or even part of the rules for converting?

BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."
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« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2012, 03:35:26 PM »

Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.
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« Reply #105 on: February 11, 2012, 03:36:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Can someone please explain to me how this thread has devolved into a debate about Rastafari when the OP is about organs in the Church?

Further, why are folks so dismissive of the Orthodox punx?

Oi Oi! Up the punx if the punx are united we can never be divided boneheadz out out of punk!!

Many folks have a problem with disregarding or dismissive cultures which they don't understand. I come from both backgrounds, Rastafari within the Orthodox Church AND punks from the Orthodox Church, and I can tell you personally its not fair to judge these cultures so harshly as if we were heretics.  I don't recall mohawks OR dreadlocks being forbidden by any Canons Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Habte--as an old guy, I detest (abhor, dislike, etc...) punk, rap, modern day R&B. I guess  there is a generational and perhaps cultural divide here. I just wanted yo know how I feel. BTW, since I have shied away from the three genres that I mentioned above, I am also somewhat ignorant of them. For example, it seems to me that Bob Marley's music was none of them; he was reggae, right?
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« Reply #106 on: February 11, 2012, 03:36:45 PM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
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« Reply #107 on: February 11, 2012, 03:39:20 PM »

Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Are you the definer of what is or is not "Rasta"? "You regard"- I did not realize we had Noah Webster posting.

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either?
Oh, I get. You're Moses, fresh from the mountaintop!
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« Reply #108 on: February 11, 2012, 03:39:55 PM »

Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Are you the definer of what is or is not "Rasta"? "You regard"- I did not realize we had Noah Webster posting.

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either?
Oh, I get. You're Moses, fresh from the mountaintop!

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff

Use your brain and your (hopefully) built in Orthodox common sense. Even people from the "old country" recognize that smoking is sinful! Don't try to destroy Orthodox morality with your disgusting liberal views.
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« Reply #109 on: February 11, 2012, 03:43:51 PM »

It went away because they were making a show out of themselves- using shock value tactics while pretending to mock the same.

People would be attracted to those 'Death to the World' shirts because they looked like the cover of a black metal album. It has skulls! Cool!

Come on, already. People liked it because they thought it was a sick joke about killing everybody in the world. Not the best Christian advertising I can think of.

Actually it's back. I love the shirts and I would say I connect with the movement. I am a metalhead so that's probably why.  Wink

I do wish it had a less harsh name. Some of their shirts do have quotations that explain what the phrase means.

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« Reply #110 on: February 11, 2012, 03:46:10 PM »

Okay, then.  Smiley
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« Reply #111 on: February 11, 2012, 03:46:28 PM »

Can you be an Atheistic Christian? Or a Hindu Jew? No, you cannot mix and match religions... I regard Rasta as a religion, just like atheism is a religion. Does practicing yoga make one Hindu?

There is a difference between being Orthodox and adopting some Rasta-esque ideas and practices and actually being Rastafarian.

Are you the definer of what is or is not "Rasta"? "You regard"- I did not realize we had Noah Webster posting.

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either?
Oh, I get. You're Moses, fresh from the mountaintop!

and....

http://www.healthyyouth.com/Resources/hookahs.html
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« Reply #112 on: February 11, 2012, 03:47:22 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

It went away because they were making a show out of themselves- using shock value tactics while pretending to mock the same.

People would be attracted to those 'Death to the World' shirts because they looked like the cover of a black metal album. It has skulls! Cool!

Come on, already. People liked it because they thought it was a sick joke about killing everybody in the world. Not the best Christian advertising I can think of.

Actually it's back. I love the shirts and I would say I connect with the movement. I am a metalhead so that's probably why.  Wink

I do wish it had a less harsh name. Some of their shirts do have quotations that explain what the phrase means.




http://www.deathtotheworld.com/seraphimrose/index.html

Yes their not only back, we never left Wink

but this is all I can digress, if organs catch this much flack in the Church I hardly think crusty distorted guitars and blast beats will be any more welcome Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #113 on: February 11, 2012, 03:51:56 PM »

It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. Smiley
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« Reply #114 on: February 11, 2012, 03:54:44 PM »

It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. Smiley

Something like that could be done in a parish hall but never ever in the church itself.
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« Reply #115 on: February 11, 2012, 03:56:12 PM »

Of course, that's what I would do.
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« Reply #116 on: February 11, 2012, 04:00:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote from: biro link=topic=42926.msg708355#msg708355date=1328989916
It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. Smiley

I am so glad that parish has had success with that, praise God!

That is EXACTLY the kind of things I have been slowly working towards in our parish for our youth program.  My priest first brought the potentiality and intent of such to my attention 3 years ago and we together have slowly been networking and building a consensus, and perhaps in God's Grace it might happen in connection with the consecration and opening of our new parish building in a couple of months Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #117 on: February 11, 2012, 05:01:01 PM »

It may be good for a church, instead of putting modern music in its services, to have the services at one time and welcome parish people to a music performance another time. One of the parishes near me does a battle of the bands every year, which seems to be fun. It's different from the liturgy, so it does not interfere with that, but it gives people a chance to express themselves and stay in the community. It could work. Smiley
I hear ya Habte!  Smiley

That's really cool. Yeah never in a temple, but maybe if a couple parishes got together and put a music festival together, kinda like a Greek festival but with bands.
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« Reply #118 on: February 11, 2012, 05:15:05 PM »

I think you're the one missing the point- sure, if you, being who you are now were to show up with a green mohawk, your parish would rightly suspect you were doing it for attention or to push the boundaries of what they think is acceptable. The question is, should you have been ostracized if you were to show up as you had been then? Should growing out the hair on the sides of your head to match the strip on top and dying your hair back to its normal color be the standard for acceptance by the parish or even part of the rules for converting?

If you're going to make a distinction between me doing it now to be shocking and me doing it then in order to make the point that people shouldn't have to conform to certain standards, then why shouldn't I do it now? Because, as I wrote earlier, the church is NOT the place for it. It is not the place for plumage and subcultural/non-Orthodox identity markers and all that. Of course kids coming in off the street who don't know any better should be treated differently precisely because they don't know any better, but if you've been to enough services to notice that the liturgy is not a punk rock show, then maybe, just maybe, it is not crazy to expect that you start comporting yourself in a way that shows respect for the norms of the community. It's not about making any particular look or whatever the litmus test of true faith, it's about the interior change in the believer that makes them put aside what they are comfortable with in order to better follow Christ. To take off the old man and put on the new and superior one, as a line from the midnight praises puts it. If you can do that without taking off your leather jacket, more power to you, but I personally don't think it's healthy to maintain that kind of attachment to the fashions of the world such that they bleed into your relation to the faith and the Church, whether in thought or in dress or in any other way. (And believe me, I've gotten into enough arguments I didn't really want to have with the local Copts over the inevitable political whine-fest that descends over the Agape meal to know how I'm in the extreme minority here, but so be it. The Church is not about whether you like or hate a politician, or a certain kind of music, or an Ethiopian emperor, or any of that. We have to deal with that kind of petty nonsense all the time outside of the Church, so I don't think it's an extreme position to not want it to be in the Church just as the vast majority of people in this thread have voiced displeasure at the encroachment of musical instruments from the outside being accepted into the Church.)

Quote
BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Really? We're really going here? Sorry, I'm not in high school anymore, so these kinds of "you're not punk" taunts just sound ridiculous to me, especially in the context of this board. To tell the truth, I didn't have that kind of haircut back then, and that sort of thing always struck me as posturing. As one of my favorite bands from those days put it (still love 'em, too, and  they were led by a high school English teacher in a suit...how un-punk!): Ja sam panker u sakou starom...not some silly bondage pants just because that's some kid's idea of what "punk" is.

Plus, it'd be hard to prostrate with spiky hair. Cheesy
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« Reply #119 on: February 11, 2012, 05:19:08 PM »

If you're going to make a distinction between me doing it now to be shocking and me doing it then in order to make the point that people shouldn't have to conform to certain standards, then why shouldn't I do it now? Because, as I wrote earlier, the church is NOT the place for it. It is not the place for plumage and subcultural/non-Orthodox identity markers and all that. Of course kids coming in off the street who don't know any better should be treated differently precisely because they don't know any better, but if you've been to enough services to notice that the liturgy is not a punk rock show, then maybe, just maybe, it is not crazy to expect that you start comporting yourself in a way that shows respect for the norms of the community. It's not about making any particular look or whatever the litmus test of true faith, it's about the interior change in the believer that makes them put aside what they are comfortable with in order to better follow Christ. To take off the old man and put on the new and superior one, as a line from the midnight praises puts it. If you can do that without taking off your leather jacket, more power to you, but I personally don't think it's healthy to maintain that kind of attachment to the fashions of the world such that they bleed into your relation to the faith and the Church, whether in thought or in dress or in any other way. (And believe me, I've gotten into enough arguments I didn't really want to have with the local Copts over the inevitable political whine-fest that descends over the Agape meal to know how I'm in the extreme minority here, but so be it. The Church is not about whether you like or hate a politician, or a certain kind of music, or an Ethiopian emperor, or any of that. We have to deal with that kind of petty nonsense all the time outside of the Church, so I don't think it's an extreme position to not want it to be in the Church just as the vast majority of people in this thread have voiced displeasure at the encroachment of musical instruments from the outside being accepted into the Church.)

There is no way in hell I will ever take to dressing like the Greeks -- norms of the community be damned.
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« Reply #120 on: February 11, 2012, 05:56:47 PM »

Ugh. I see I am not expressing myself clearly. I will try it again.

The liturgy is not a punk rock show or a hippie drum circle or a fun-run or any of that stuff. It is NOT about what you wear (so, no, I'm not advocating not allowing people in church if they are/aren't dressed a certain way), but it is about letting go of the things of the world. Again, if you can do that in your leather jacket or big...uh...Rastafarian hat (you know, this number), then go right ahead, but that will not change the fact that the Church is a place to worship God, not to be identified as punks, or rastas, or whatevers. Indeed, God made all of these people, and while He didn't make me specifically to love the Clash, I sure do, and I thank Him for that enjoyment. But that doesn't mean that my subcultural identity amounts to a hill of beans. These things of the world do not belong in the Church. That's all.
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« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2012, 07:43:27 PM »

I think you're the one missing the point- sure, if you, being who you are now were to show up with a green mohawk, your parish would rightly suspect you were doing it for attention or to push the boundaries of what they think is acceptable. The question is, should you have been ostracized if you were to show up as you had been then? Should growing out the hair on the sides of your head to match the strip on top and dying your hair back to its normal color be the standard for acceptance by the parish or even part of the rules for converting?

If you're going to make a distinction between me doing it now to be shocking and me doing it then in order to make the point that people shouldn't have to conform to certain standards, then why shouldn't I do it now?
Actually, I was referring to you "coming in off the street". You know, like a Rasta would most likely have dreadlocks. I don't know about you, but I more often dressed the way I dressed because I liked the way it looked and not to "make a statement". Make a statement dress was for hippies.
Quote
Because, as I wrote earlier, the church is NOT the place for it. It is not the place for plumage and subcultural/non-Orthodox identity markers and all that. Of course kids coming in off the street who don't know any better should be treated differently precisely because they don't know any better, but if you've been to enough services to notice that the liturgy is not a punk rock show, then maybe, just maybe, it is not crazy to expect that you start comporting yourself in a way that shows respect for the norms of the community.
It depends, of course, upon why the "norms" of the community are the "norms" of the community. Are people dressing nicer to honor God or to keep a good reputation in the Ethnic Country Club Orthodox Church? I've seen more than a few of the latter parishes that would benefit greatly from a few punks and Rastas (or monks!) in attendance.

Quote
It's not about making any particular look or whatever the litmus test of true faith, it's about the interior change in the believer that makes them put aside what they are comfortable with in order to better follow Christ.
As long as that's the reason, perfect. FWIW, I don't have a 12" mohawk anymore and the bondage pants are in the back of the closet somewhere. Nobody demanded these things of me, Church just naturally became more important than punk. That said, I wouldn't pressure any of my old friends to dress better if they were going to the parish with me.

Quote
To take off the old man and put on the new and superior one, as a line from the midnight praises puts it. If you can do that without taking off your leather jacket, more power to you, but I personally don't think it's healthy to maintain that kind of attachment to the fashions of the world such that they bleed into your relation to the faith and the Church, whether in thought or in dress or in any other way. (And believe me, I've gotten into enough arguments I didn't really want to have with the local Copts over the inevitable political whine-fest that descends over the Agape meal to know how I'm in the extreme minority here, but so be it. The Church is not about whether you like or hate a politician, or a certain kind of music, or an Ethiopian emperor, or any of that. We have to deal with that kind of petty nonsense all the time outside of the Church, so I don't think it's an extreme position to not want it to be in the Church just as the vast majority of people in this thread have voiced displeasure at the encroachment of musical instruments from the outside being accepted into the Church.)
Pretty much in complete agreement with you here.

BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Really? We're really going here? Sorry, I'm not in high school anymore, so these kinds of "you're not punk" taunts just sound ridiculous to me, especially in the context of this board.
Less about "you're not punk" and more about- well, let's put it like this, we've got a few members of the board who used to be hippies back in the sixties. Now, I'm sure the ones who were hippies just because that was the thing to do probably do think they looked pretty stupid with the whole tie-dye, semi-Native-American, long hair look. Those who believed in the ideals of the community, had good friends, and fond memories of the movement, on the other hand, probably still think the look was kind of awesome, even if it doesn't fit with who they are today.

However, if the punks you hung with didn't dress like "hardcore (the genre, not a definition of level of devotion) punks", that is also understandable- punk being as diverse as it is.

Quote
To tell the truth, I didn't have that kind of haircut back then, and that sort of thing always struck me as posturing.
Yeah, I did that before my last punk-look hurrah. Went from mohawked punk in the South where there wasn't a scene to semi-hippy Joey Ramone look when I moved to Chicago and was disgusted by the punk-fashion-show that went on in the clubs. Then realized that dressing in any way as a form of protest was just as lame as dressing a certain way to conform and that I really liked having a kick-a mohawk- and would start balding in about 10 years, so have fun now.

Quote
As one of my favorite bands from those days put it (still love 'em, too, and  they were led by a high school English teacher in a suit...how un-punk!): Ja sam panker u sakou starom...
Translation? Google does not recognize the language.
Quote
not some silly bondage pants just because that's some kid's idea of what "punk" is.
Again, you don't wear bondage pants because they're "punk". You wear bondage pants because they're awesome (unless we're talking the Hot-topic goth-emo style of bondage pants)- and scare homophobic red-necks.
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« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2012, 07:49:01 PM »

BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Not to detract from dzheremi's point, which I agree with, but there's also a simple issue of how removed in time you are from that look. I also still think that I looked very cool with post-punk/early-goth hair, earrings, and thrift-store stylings I wore in the late eighties--but I think if I tried to dress that way now, in my forties, I'd look like a complete idiot. And I'm pretty sure my 18-year old self would have thought the same thing.
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« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2012, 07:56:57 PM »

BTW, if you think you would look "stupid" for having a mohawk and combat boots, then I doubt you were all that heavily invested in the scene as a teenager. I look at pictures of me with my mohawk and bondage pants and I still can't think anything but "I looked SWEET."

Not to detract from dzheremi's point, which I agree with, but there's also a simple issue of how removed in time you are from that look. I also still think that I looked very cool with post-punk/early-goth hair, earrings, and thrift-store stylings I wore in the late eighties--but I think if I tried to dress that way now, in my forties, I'd look like a complete idiot. And I'm pretty sure my 18-year old self would have thought the same thing.

Oh, definitely. The punk look should be retired at 30, unless your name is Johnny Rotten. The only thing I still wear from those days is my leather jacket (and even that only when the temperature drops, not an all too often occurrence in Miami) , which is just a classic, all-American style. However, when I see a punk kid I don't think "That kid looks stupid" I think "It's nice to know some things are still around."

However, that said, some things should remain dead- in my early adolescent scare-the-redneck days it was cool to dress like Kriss-Kross. I really hope the wearing-your-clothes-backwards thing never, ever comes back.
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« Reply #124 on: February 11, 2012, 08:27:22 PM »

Actually, I was referring to you "coming in off the street". You know, like a Rasta would most likely have dreadlocks. I don't know about you, but I more often dressed the way I dressed because I liked the way it looked and not to "make a statement". Make a statement dress was for hippies.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, my friend. Punks are mostly just hippies with slightly different drug habits.

Quote
It depends, of course, upon why the "norms" of the community are the "norms" of the community. Are people dressing nicer to honor God or to keep a good reputation in the Ethnic Country Club Orthodox Church? I've seen more than a few of the latter parishes that would benefit greatly from a few punks and Rastas (or monks!) in attendance.

I'm not sure what you mean with that last statement.

Quote
As long as that's the reason, perfect. FWIW, I don't have a 12" mohawk anymore and the bondage pants are in the back of the closet somewhere. Nobody demanded these things of me, Church just naturally became more important than punk. That said, I wouldn't pressure any of my old friends to dress better if they were going to the parish with me.

"Church just naturally became more important than punk" - excellent. As far pressuring anybody...well, it's never good to pressure anyone, and always beneficial to the curious that they be allowed to come as they are (if they haven't made a commitment, why potentially scare them off?). At the same time, I would think that most people do have a sense that going to church does entail, if not a particular level of formal dress, at least an attempt to dress as you might when visiting non-whatever you are relatives, or your boss, or something of that level. And if they don't, then I don't think it's "pressure" to tell them that gently, especially if you invite them. I mean, you want them to get something out of it other than "all of those strange people stared at me", don't you? (In my experience as the white guy in the Coptic Church, I don't think anyone would actually do that, but I also know from personal experience that if it is not what you are used to, you'll feel that way anyway, so there's no need to add to it by increasing the "fish out of water" feeling by not trying to prepare your friends as best as you can. There is a happy medium, and it doesn't require anyone buy a new suit or whatever. I wear the same outfit now that I wrote to the hundreds of RC masses I attended, and no one thinks it odd.)

Quote
Less about "you're not punk" and more about- well, let's put it like this, we've got a few members of the board who used to be hippies back in the sixties. Now, I'm sure the ones who were hippies just because that was the thing to do probably do think they looked pretty stupid with the whole tie-dye, semi-Native-American, long hair look. Those who believed in the ideals of the community, had good friends, and fond memories of the movement, on the other hand, probably still think the look was kind of awesome, even if it doesn't fit with who they are today.

I suppose I don't go in for the "ideals" bit of the musical subculture because by now I'm old and bitter, but really even back then, as a teenager...like I wrote, you can be inspired by the music and what it presents you, that's really great, but in the end it's still music. I think it is silly to be the "we mean it, maaaaan" guy. Who's to say that those people who you look at and think are just dressing the part don't also really mean it? You're not in their heads; you don't know. In the end it doesn't even matter. You're a group of people who have created a little community around listening to and making and consuming similar music, books, magazines, whatever. That's it. It's fun and it may have a big impact on your life, but it's not more important or revolutionary or whatever than anything else that's out there. In fact, the argument could be made that there is very little that is less useless than being punk, rasta, hippie, or whatever. But I digress...often... Smiley

Quote
However, if the punks you hung with didn't dress like "hardcore (the genre, not a definition of level of devotion) punks", that is also understandable- punk being as diverse as it is.

Eh, some did, some didn't. Didn't matter. The place I grew up in was so small, you couldn't form cliques around that kind of thing.

Quote
Yeah, I did that before my last punk-look hurrah. Went from mohawked punk in the South where there wasn't a scene to semi-hippy Joey Ramone look when I moved to Chicago and was disgusted by the punk-fashion-show that went on in the clubs. Then realized that dressing in any way as a form of protest was just as lame as dressing a certain way to conform and that I really liked having a kick-a mohawk- and would start balding in about 10 years, so have fun now.

That's cool. For me I reached a point when I was about 19 or 20 when I kind of woke up and realized that staying out until 3 am every weekend watching bands I didn't really like was not conducive to the kind of life I wanted (to say nothing of playing in and touring with bands I didn't like, ughhh). I wanted to get educated (still do) and maybe meet a nice young lady who I could to out with to somewhere that wasn't a basement or the back of a record store, who might have something deeper to talk about then bands and politics. I have some great memories of those days, but it's definitely not something I'd want to do again.

Quote
Translation? Google does not recognize the language.

Serbo-Croatian, "I'm a punk in an old jacket" by the one and only Peking Duck, the heroes and legends of Yugoslavian "novi val".

Quote
Again, you don't wear bondage pants because they're "punk". You wear bondage pants because they're awesome (unless we're talking the Hot-topic goth-emo style of bondage pants)- and scare homophobic red-necks.

Eh...alright. I don't really see how that squares with the whole "dressing up to make a statement is for hippies", and I like wearing pants that I can move in, but to each their own.
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« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2012, 09:00:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Ugh. I see I am not expressing myself clearly. I will try it again.

The liturgy is not a punk rock show or a hippie drum circle or a fun-run or any of that stuff. It is NOT about what you wear (so, no, I'm not advocating not allowing people in church if they are/aren't dressed a certain way), but it is about letting go of the things of the world. Again, if you can do that in your leather jacket or big...uh...Rastafarian hat (you know, this number), then go right ahead, but that will not change the fact that the Church is a place to worship God, not to be identified as punks, or rastas, or whatevers. Indeed, God made all of these people, and while He didn't make me specifically to love the Clash, I sure do, and I thank Him for that enjoyment. But that doesn't mean that my subcultural identity amounts to a hill of beans. These things of the world do not belong in the Church. That's all.

Actually my priests explicitly commanded me to wear my red, gold, and green tam when communing when I still had dread, but then again, like usual, in your self-righteous Puritan zeal you are not expressing yourself very clearly Wink

By the way, you realize nobody has been talking about changing  or intruding upon the  Divine Liturgy, but there are plenty of activities within the Church, related to the Church, and celebrated by the Church community that in all honesty have nothing to do with the Liturgy right?

Anthropologically speaking what is the difference exactly between


and


But again, what does any of this have to do with Organs in the Church?

I'll connect it.  Knee-jerk reactionary reactions like those we see on this thread to expressions of culture are exactly why folks in the Church have apprehension to projectors  or organs.  At the end of the of day, is it really so Christian to split these particular hairs?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #126 on: February 11, 2012, 09:06:03 PM »

My "self-righteous Puritan zeal" aside, I think this conversation has pretty much run its course. The things I am uncomfortable with I am still uncomfortable with, but you have given me something to think about, so thank you. I am bowing out of this one unless the topic changes.
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« Reply #127 on: February 11, 2012, 09:08:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My "self-righteous Puritan zeal" aside, I think this conversation has pretty much run its course. The things I am uncomfortable with I am still uncomfortable with, but you have given me something to think about, so thank you. I am bowing out of this one unless the topic changes.

Thank you, and I am also sorry if my words were a bit too cutting, but you have to understand that sometimes you post here with a condescending tone, and it can be very curt and even hurtful sometimes to other peoples heartfelt opinions, ideas, and cultures Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #128 on: February 11, 2012, 09:16:36 PM »

It is unintentional, and I apologize. I can only say what I believe, but I do not mean to cut anyone down or present myself as better than anybody. For heaven's sake, I am not even Orthodox. I'm not sure how to make the same points in different/softer words, but I'll keep trying anyway. O Lord, set a watch on my mouth, and a strong door for my lips.
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« Reply #129 on: February 11, 2012, 09:18:28 PM »

Actually, I was referring to you "coming in off the street". You know, like a Rasta would most likely have dreadlocks. I don't know about you, but I more often dressed the way I dressed because I liked the way it looked and not to "make a statement". Make a statement dress was for hippies.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, my friend. Punks are mostly just hippies with slightly different drug habits.
One of these days there will be appropriate sarcasm/irony indicators on the internet. I/me/now agrees. I/me/punk would have agreed, but would have had several acquaintances to whom the term "hippy" was the worst insult.

It depends, of course, upon why the "norms" of the community are the "norms" of the community. Are people dressing nicer to honor God or to keep a good reputation in the Ethnic Country Club Orthodox Church? I've seen more than a few of the latter parishes that would benefit greatly from a few punks and Rastas (or monks!) in attendance.

I'm not sure what you mean with that last statement.
As it seems you are Coptic Orthodox you might not have to deal with that statement. Lucky you. For some American Eastern Orthodox the local parish is almost a (insert ethnicity here) club, where the "pillars of the community" come to see and be seen. $1000 suits and $500 haircuts required.
As long as that's the reason, perfect. FWIW, I don't have a 12" mohawk anymore and the bondage pants are in the back of the closet somewhere. Nobody demanded these things of me, Church just naturally became more important than punk. That said, I wouldn't pressure any of my old friends to dress better if they were going to the parish with me.

"Church just naturally became more important than punk" - excellent. As far pressuring anybody...well, it's never good to pressure anyone, and always beneficial to the curious that they be allowed to come as they are (if they haven't made a commitment, why potentially scare them off?). At the same time, I would think that most people do have a sense that going to church does entail, if not a particular level of formal dress, at least an attempt to dress as you might when visiting non-whatever you are relatives, or your boss, or something of that level. And if they don't, then I don't think it's "pressure" to tell them that gently, especially if you invite them. I mean, you want them to get something out of it other than "all of those strange people stared at me", don't you? (In my experience as the white guy in the Coptic Church, I don't think anyone would actually do that, but I also know from personal experience that if it is not what you are used to, you'll feel that way anyway, so there's no need to add to it by increasing the "fish out of water" feeling by not trying to prepare your friends as best as you can. There is a happy medium, and it doesn't require anyone buy a new suit or whatever. I wear the same outfit now that I wrote to the hundreds of RC masses I attended, and no one thinks it odd.)
I doubt any of my old friends would try to go in bondage pants and a punk-band t-shirt, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect them to buy a suit or shave their 'hawk.

Less about "you're not punk" and more about- well, let's put it like this, we've got a few members of the board who used to be hippies back in the sixties. Now, I'm sure the ones who were hippies just because that was the thing to do probably do think they looked pretty stupid with the whole tie-dye, semi-Native-American, long hair look. Those who believed in the ideals of the community, had good friends, and fond memories of the movement, on the other hand, probably still think the look was kind of awesome, even if it doesn't fit with who they are today.

I suppose I don't go in for the "ideals" bit of the musical subculture because by now I'm old and bitter, but really even back then, as a teenager...like I wrote, you can be inspired by the music and what it presents you, that's really great, but in the end it's still music. I think it is silly to be the "we mean it, maaaaan" guy. Who's to say that those people who you look at and think are just dressing the part don't also really mean it? You're not in their heads; you don't know. In the end it doesn't even matter. You're a group of people who have created a little community around listening to and making and consuming similar music, books, magazines, whatever. That's it. It's fun and it may have a big impact on your life, but it's not more important or revolutionary or whatever than anything else that's out there. In fact, the argument could be made that there is very little that is less useless than being punk, rasta, hippie, or whatever. But I digress...often... Smiley
Ah, but would you have argued that way when you were part of the subculture? For you, perhaps, it was all about the music and not the anti-corporate, anti-government
philosophy, just like for many it was about the style of dress more than either the music or ethos. FWIW, at the time, I more often came down on the philosophy side of the "real punk" debates- as much as I liked punk music, of all types, I tended more toward music in general that embraced the DIY ethos and "punk politics", whether it be punk, folk, or hip-hop. That is to say, I was one of those who considered an obscure techno DJ to be more "punk" than Green Day or post-Democratic Party shilling NOFX. Regardless, that is something you have to realize when you're older, if someone tells you that while you're still in that "punk is the most important thing ever" mindset, you're going to tune them out.
However, if the punks you hung with didn't dress like "hardcore (the genre, not a definition of level of devotion) punks", that is also understandable- punk being as diverse as it is.

Eh, some did, some didn't. Didn't matter. The place I grew up in was so small, you couldn't form cliques around that kind of thing.
Sounds like me down South. When I was a kid I couldn't have dreamt of the level of division between straight-edge, skate-punk, hardcore, psychobilly, etc that I found in the city.

Yeah, I did that before my last punk-look hurrah. Went from mohawked punk in the South where there wasn't a scene to semi-hippy Joey Ramone look when I moved to Chicago and was disgusted by the punk-fashion-show that went on in the clubs. Then realized that dressing in any way as a form of protest was just as lame as dressing a certain way to conform and that I really liked having a kick-a mohawk- and would start balding in about 10 years, so have fun now.

That's cool. For me I reached a point when I was about 19 or 20 when I kind of woke up and realized that staying out until 3 am every weekend watching bands I didn't really like was not conducive to the kind of life I wanted (to say nothing of playing in and touring with bands I didn't like, ughhh). I wanted to get educated (still do) and maybe meet a nice young lady who I could to out with to somewhere that wasn't a basement or the back of a record store, who might have something deeper to talk about then bands and politics. I have some great memories of those days, but it's definitely not something I'd want to do again.
Fair enough. Had I stayed where I was as a kid I probably would have done the same a lot earlier than I did. Chicago, for better or worse, was a lot better about providing bands I did like, venues I'd want to play in, etc (though, seriously, I have yet to find a [single] lady anywhere that can talk about anything deeper than bands and politics, especially not college. College women are generally shallower, the more heady the major the shallower they get).

Translation? Google does not recognize the language.

Serbo-Croatian, "I'm a punk in an old jacket" by the one and only Peking Duck, the heroes and legends of Yugoslavian "novi val".
Sweet. I had more than enough in American and English punk and psychobilly to keep me occupied (though these guys were one of my favorites), so never got too into foreign bands.
Again, you don't wear bondage pants because they're "punk". You wear bondage pants because they're awesome (unless we're talking the Hot-topic goth-emo style of bondage pants)- and scare homophobic red-necks.

Eh...alright. I don't really see how that squares with the whole "dressing up to make a statement is for hippies",
Well, first, scaring homophobic rednecks isn't making a statement, it's just a fun past-time. Second, are you really, positively sure you were a punk? You don't seem to have known that contradiction was rampant.

Quote
and I like wearing pants that I can move in, but to each their own.
At 31 I still have a 28" waist (fast metabolism, no past drug use or anything like that)- I have yet to find a pair of pants that I can't move in.
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« Reply #130 on: February 11, 2012, 09:30:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Sounds like me down South. When I was a kid I couldn't have dreamt of the level of division between straight-edge, skate-punk, hardcore, psychobilly, etc that I found in the city.


If the Punx are united, we will never, be divided! Punx Unite!!

PS.. You can still find yourself in dancehalls and divebars catching gigs at 3AM and be Orthodox, while it is rarer for me on Saturdays, lately I have even been swaying into Divine Liturgy Sunday mornings at dawn after leaving the dancehall from some serious roots reggae Wink

Of course, I prefer to get to sleep like an old person at 10pm to get up for Liturgy, and usually it is work I am swaying into after a late night at the gigs  Tongue

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #131 on: February 11, 2012, 09:59:25 PM »

As it seems you are Coptic Orthodox you might not have to deal with that statement. Lucky you. For some American Eastern Orthodox the local parish is almost a (insert ethnicity here) club, where the "pillars of the community" come to see and be seen. $1000 suits and $500 haircuts required.

Wow. Yeah...I don't think it has anything to do with being Coptic, it's more that we're a really small community, don't have much money, and have a lot more pressing things to do. We're going on 16 years in Albuquerque with no church, for instance, meaning that anyone who wants to get baptized (e.g., me) has to travel for many hours out of state just to get to the nearest church, and we can only have liturgy usually once every two weeks, etc. I have a little experience with EO in America. I think I have written here before about my very positive but limited experience with St. Seraphim of Sarov OCA church back in my home area of N. California; they're great folks and I didn't detect anything like that dress to impress/meat market atmophere going on there, but of course everywhere is different.

Quote
I doubt any of my old friends would try to go in bondage pants and a punk-band t-shirt, what I'm saying is that I wouldn't expect them to buy a suit or shave their 'hawk.

I wouldn't either. I meant more about telling them what to expect so that they can be prepared no matter how they decide to dress. If I had non-religious friends here who wanted to come to liturgy, I'd likewise talk to people at church beforehand just to make sure that the chances that my friends get scared off would be minimized. The Copts here are a very happily zealous people, and I can take it, but I can only imagine what it must be like for the poor Lutheran family who visited us once (I couldn't get word in, which was really unfortunate as the wife was ex-RC, like me), or any of the other non-OO who visit. There are a brother and sister who are Melkite Catholic who visit more regularly, but they have an easier time as they are also Arabic speakers, from Jordan. Anyway...

Quote
Ah, but would you have argued that way when you were part of the subculture? For you, perhaps, it was all about the music and not the anti-corporate, anti-government
philosophy, just like for many it was about the style of dress more than either the music or ethos. FWIW, at the time, I more often came down on the philosophy side of the "real punk" debates- as much as I liked punk music, of all types, I tended more toward music in general that embraced the DIY ethos and "punk politics", whether it be punk, folk, or hip-hop. That is to say, I was one of those who considered an obscure techno DJ to be more "punk" than Green Day or post-Democratic Party shilling NOFX. Regardless, that is something you have to realize when you're older, if someone tells you that while you're still in that "punk is the most important thing ever" mindset, you're going to tune them out.

I don't know. I think I was probably mentally old by the time I got into it, just as a result of unrelated circumstances. Politics...eh...they have their place, but I would rather a faith-informed worldview than paying more attention to what someone has to say just because they have a guitar. Anyone can play the guitar. Heck, I did it for years. And yet, somehow, "the system" is still here. Maybe I didn't play loud enough...I don't know. Ultimately, the Pelagian notions that underlie all political systems are poison to me. I do not see such a big difference between anarchism and fascism, and even within the punk scene I eventually found that I was not the only one who thought so (thankfully! "I do not believe in anarchy", as this song goes, should be a perfectly reasonable statement, but try telling a punk rocker who believes in all of these things that he hears on his favorite records about that...you just don't get it, maaaan...  Smiley)

Quote
Fair enough. Had I stayed where I was as a kid I probably would have done the same a lot earlier than I did. Chicago, for better or worse, was a lot better about providing bands I did like, venues I'd want to play in, etc (though, seriously, I have yet to find a [single] lady anywhere that can talk about anything deeper than bands and politics, especially not college. College women are generally shallower, the more heady the major the shallower they get).

Hmm. That was interestingly phrased. You mean women only become interesting and able to talk about deep matters after they are married? I could see why that would be a problem, then! Smiley I don't know that I've experienced that (and it seems like my rather esoteric field of study is a majority-female department at my particular institution), but just like Orthodox churches in different places, I suppose everywhere is different. May God bless your searching, if you're still on the lookout for that allusive woman.

Translation? Sweet. I had more than enough in American and English punk and psychobilly to keep me occupied (though these guys were one of my favorites), so never got too into foreign bands.

Hahaha. That song is silly.

Quote
Well, first, scaring homophobic rednecks isn't making a statement, it's just a fun past-time.


Touche.

Quote
Second, are you really, positively sure you were a punk? You don't seem to have known that contradiction was rampant.

Well, I turned in my secret decoder ring years ago, but yeah, I think so. I probably just didn't pay attention.

Quote
At 31 I still have a 28" waist (fast metabolism, no past drug use or anything like that)- I have yet to find a pair of pants that I can't move in.

Well the Lord has certainly blessed you! Hahaha. This is good to hear. I wish I could say the same.
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« Reply #132 on: February 11, 2012, 10:03:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Sounds like me down South. When I was a kid I couldn't have dreamt of the level of division between straight-edge, skate-punk, hardcore, psychobilly, etc that I found in the city.


If the Punx are united, we will never, be divided! Punx Unite!!
The Casualties! Sweet.

Quote
PS.. You can still find yourself in dancehalls and divebars catching gigs at 3AM and be Orthodox, while it is rarer for me on Saturdays, lately I have even been swaying into Divine Liturgy Sunday mornings at dawn after leaving the dancehall from some serious roots reggae Wink
Not down in Miami, I can't. It's not that there aren't punk shows down here, it's that I don't have any of my old friends down this way, and it seems kind of pointless. That said it would be nice to get out for the night.
Quote
Of course, I prefer to get to sleep like an old person at 10pm to get up for Liturgy, and usually it is work I am swaying into after a late night at the gigs  Tongue

stay blessed,
habte selassie
These days, if I'm swaying at Liturgy it is because I had homework to finish up and I decided that 2hrs of sleep would be more annoying than restful so didn't sleep at all.
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« Reply #133 on: February 11, 2012, 10:16:06 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


These days, if I'm swaying at Liturgy it is because I had homework to finish up and I decided that 2hrs of sleep would be more annoying than restful so didn't sleep at all.

True, I wouldn't go to a punk gig solo either, but that is because I love the pit too much Wink

Of course, I haven't been to a punk gig in a while, its been strictly roots reggae gigs but the principle is still the same, staying out well past our bedtimes

"..because I don't want to go home, until the morning, Mr Dancehall Selectah I beg your pardon.." Josey Wales

..and to keep it on target, if I staggered into Church at dawn tired from the dancehall the night before and I heard an organ during Liturgy, I'd probably be about as upset as some of the folks here are....


..we don't play the organ until the hymns AFTER Liturgy Wink

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie
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« Reply #134 on: February 11, 2012, 10:20:38 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


These days, if I'm swaying at Liturgy it is because I had homework to finish up and I decided that 2hrs of sleep would be more annoying than restful so didn't sleep at all.

True, I wouldn't go to a punk gig solo either, but that is because I love the pit too much Wink

Of course, I haven't been to a punk gig in a while, its been strictly roots reggae gigs but the principle is still the same, staying out well past our bedtimes

"..because I don't want to go home, until the morning, Mr Dancehall Selectah I beg your pardon.." Josey Wales

..and to keep it on target, if I staggered into Church at dawn tired from the dancehall the night before and I heard an organ during Liturgy, I'd probably be about as upset as some of the folks here are....


..we don't play the organ until the hymns AFTER Liturgy Wink

Stay Blessed,
Habte Selassie

Truth be told, I flat out can not go to a reggae gig. A certain temptation would be passed around that I could not guarantee I could resist. I can go to a punk show and not drink, but....
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« Reply #135 on: February 11, 2012, 11:46:26 PM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
SAYS WHO!!!? Huh
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« Reply #136 on: February 11, 2012, 11:48:15 PM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?
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« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2012, 12:00:40 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!

Like in the other thread, you can NEVER question that pre-marital sex is a sin. It is a sin, and will always be a sin. No one can change that and no one will ever change that.

Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:09:57 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2012, 12:09:48 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!



Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1

Hello, true Scotsman? Will any true Scotsman please stand up? Anyone? Bueller?

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2012, 12:12:31 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!



Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1

Hello, true Scotsman? Will any true Scotsman please stand up? Anyone? Bueller?

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.

No true Orthodox can be socially liberal. That is the TRUTH. "No True Scotsman" DOES NOT apply here, and CANNOT apply here. Because as Orthodox Christians, we have doctrines, we have membership in the church, we have a set morality that all of us absolutely HAVE to adhere to in order to be Orthodox. When we step outside of that, we start forfeiting our Orthodoxy. That is the TRUTH. I'm sick of liberals trying to come into our church and destroy it. One cannot be socially liberal and be Orthodox, that is the fact.

The idiots that answer in Orthodox surveys that we can ordain women, that abortion and birth control is okay, that smoking is permissible, that permitting tolerance for LGBT is okay, inter-communion and ecumenism etc... Are not Orthodox and should be chastised for their heterodox viewpoints.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:16:40 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2012, 12:20:43 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing?
4. Who are the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. Roll Eyes That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. Roll Eyes Get real.

That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:25:23 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2012, 12:27:02 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing? Who are they?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. Roll Eyes That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. Roll Eyes Get real.

That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.

How the hell can you expect marijuana to be in scripture, the fathers or holy tradition? It didn't become a widespread sin until the 20th Century. Use your common sense as an Orthodox Christian!
You know Protestantism is a heresy right? You know that smoking cigarettes is wrong right? You know that cutting yourself for attention is wrong right? You know that anorexia [fixed] and bulemia are sins right? Yet where in the Bible, in the Tradition of the Church, in the Holy Fathers are ANY of those mentioned specifically?

Being drunk is a sin, smoking cigarettes is a sin. It's not to difficult to see why smoking marijuana is a sin if you use common sense.

Pews were invented by the heretical Protestants so they could sit on their duffs while they taught heresies within their churches. You cannot worship God sitting on your butt, only standing, kneeling or prostrate. We don't sit in worship, we stand, we always have and we always should unless we are sick, old or otherwise infirm or nursing.

There absolutely cannot be ANY instruments in worship. That IS in the Fathers, which I have quoted earlier in this thread.

As I said, only sick heretical liberals want to change these things in the church. One cannot be a social liberal and be Orthodox at the same time. One cannot believe LGBT is okay, abortion is okay, smoking is okay, drinking is okay, doing drugs is okay, pre-marital sex is okay, masturbation is okay, believing heresies is okay, communing non-Orthodox is okay, ecumenism is okay, etc... and still be Orthodox. It simply cannot be done.

We can not have pews in our churches, nor organs, nor any other instrument. We cannot allow atheists to design our churches, nor to build our churches in modernist styles. All of that is against our tradition and against Orthodoxy. We don't follow the heterodox or the heretics, we don't follow the rest of this sick, twisted and evil world. There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:57:58 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2012, 12:39:37 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such, and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin. Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing, and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!



Look under Drugs:
http://www.holy-trinity-church.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=69&Itemid=134&limit=1&limitstart=1

Hello, true Scotsman? Will any true Scotsman please stand up? Anyone? Bueller?

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.
Again, hello Mr Moses. Try not to break those tablets.

Quote
No true Orthodox can be socially liberal. That is the TRUTH. "No True Scotsman" DOES NOT apply here, and CANNOT apply here. Because as Orthodox Christians, we have doctrines, we have membership in the church, we have a set morality that all of us absolutely HAVE to adhere to in order to be Orthodox. When we step outside of that, we start forfeiting our Orthodoxy. That is the TRUTH. I'm sick of liberals trying to come into our church and destroy it. One cannot be socially liberal and be Orthodox, that is the fact. The idiots that answer in Orthodox surveys that we can ordain women, that abortion and birth control is okay, that smoking is permissible, that permitting tolerance for LGBT is okay, inter-communion and ecumenism etc... Are not Orthodox and should be chastised for their heterodox viewpoints.
I suppose your definition of "socially liberal" is in question here- do you mean that no Orthodox Christian can DO the things you list as if you were St Paul writing to the Americans? Or do you mean that no Orthodox Christian can say that it's none of their business what the world does, and all must follow lockstep to our whim? Finally, who ordained you deacon, priest, or bishop to dictate what is or is not Orthodoxy? ANAXIOS!

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Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
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« Reply #143 on: February 12, 2012, 12:41:48 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing? Who are they?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. Roll Eyes That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. Roll Eyes Get real.

That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.

How the hell can you expect marijuana to be in scripture, the fathers or holy tradition? It didn't become a widespread sin until the 20th Century. Use your common sense as an Orthodox Christian!
I AM using common sense. Of course marijuana is not in the Scriptures, but intoxicants such as wine are.

You know Protestantism is a heresy right? You know that smoking cigarettes is wrong right? You know that cutting yourself for attention is wrong right? You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right? Yet where in the Bible, in the Tradition of the Church, in the Holy Fathers are ANY of those mentioned specifically?
And where is your "common sense" found in the Scriptures? If you're going to call something a sin, then at least have the common courtesy to tell us exactly why it's a sin. Merely calling those who disagree stupid, dense, misguided, blind, whatever ad hominems you wish to attach to them for not seeing things as you do is not going to convince anyone that we should see your pet bugaboos as sins.

Being drunk is a sin, smoking cigarettes is a sin. It's not to difficult to see why smoking marijuana is a sin if you use common sense.
But what if I'm not using your "common sense"? Common sense is really a terrible argument, for it's too vague a concept, and it's too dependent on one's own subjective view of the world.

Pews were invented by the heretical Protestants so they could sit on their duffs while they taught heresies within their churches. You cannot worship God sitting on your butt, only standing, kneeling or prostrate.
Again, says who?

We don't sit in worship, we stand, we always have and we always should unless we are sick, old or otherwise infirm or nursing.
Says who?

There absolutely cannot be ANY instruments in worship. That IS in the Fathers, which I have quoted earlier in this thread.
WHY did the Fathers oppose instrumental worship? Why must we follow their opposition to instrumental music in church as though their opposition is an eternal principle that transcends all of human history and culture? Cannot their opposition have been conditioned by the cultural influences they were forced to address in their place and time? As a church musician myself, I can think of some very good reasons why I don't like instruments in church, but they're not based on a blind, thoughtless, uncritical obedience to pastoral directives intended for particular places and times.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:42:12 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #144 on: February 12, 2012, 12:43:40 AM »

smoking marijuana is a sin
Oh?

Because it is bought with filthy lucre? Wink

I wonder what sort of depraved activities occur in the Sess Tollhouse.

You're insane if you don't think it is sinful. I suppose you think getting drunk, doing drugs and smoking cigarettes isn't sinful either? Next thing you know, we'll be seeing people suggesting smoking hookahs is okay...
Enough with the ad hominems. One is not insane merely because he disagrees with you. If you wish to convince us of your point of view, put the personal attacks against our sanity away and address us as the rational, thinking persons we are.

"You ask, "Are there canons that speak to the issues of … tobacco?" I would ask you, where are the Canons that forbid use of marijuana or snorting cocaine or downloading pornography from the Internet? Obviously, there are none. Does this mean that your innate Orthodox common sense should not be enough to guide you to recognize what is healthy and what is not? The Canons should not be considered a compendium of answers to all possible questions. God gave us a mind and a conscience and we should use them to determine what is right and what is wrong, whether or not the particular issue has been addressed in the canons or not. Smoking tobacco is a disgusting, filthy, addictive habit that turns the mouth of the smoker into an ashtray. It not only poisons the body of the smoker but pollutes the air that others around the smoker breathe. It is absolutely incompatible with the dignity of the Orthodox Priesthood, diaconate, or monastic state, whether the Canons specifically address it or not." -  Father Alexander Lebedeff
Okay, so that was Fr. Alexander's opinion, the opinion of one who hates tobacco. What makes him an infallible authority on matters dogmatic?

I feel extremely sorry for you if you think smoking marijuana isn't a sin. You are clearly extremely misguided if you think so... I have no problem with sinners, but it is absolutely disgusting when people try to justify a sin by suggesting it isn't a sin.
What's equally disgusting is when people call something a sin but offer nothing more than the above when asked to explain WHY it's a sin.

If you smoke marijuana, you are committing a sin, and you better recognize it as such,
WHY must I? Because you say so?

and you better not deceive yourself by treating it as though it weren't a sin.
Why not? Because you say so?

Confess it to your Priest so you don't fall into league with liberal "Orthodox' (though the socially liberal aren't Orthodox).
1. I don't smoke marijuana; never have. Not that I see it as sinful, since I don't. I've just never had any use for the stuff.
2. Why does the smoking of marijuana put one in league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'"?
3. Why is falling into league with the "liberal 'Orthodox'" such a bad thing? Who are they?

Its just as sick as the people who try to say that homosexuality is not a sin. It is the exact same thing,
So rolling and smoking a dooby is the same thing as me ****ing a man up the ****. Roll Eyes That's a new one by me.

and neither view will ever hold any value in Orthodoxy, because Orthodoxy will absolutely never changes its morality to suit the sick liberals.
So far you haven't even defended Orthodoxy on this thread. All you've done is defend your angry opinions.

We aren't a pro-LGBT church and never will be, and we aren't a pro-marijuana church, and never will be. You can't change the church's morality.
No I can't, but I can call out BS when I see it. You've never made a good defense of why smoking marijuana is a sin, and you've never made a good defense of why organs and pews in church are sins. All you've done is state your own opinions and put them into the mouth of the Church.

As our wonderful monastics say, cigarettes are Satan's incense, if they say that about cigarettes, then marijuana can be considered just as bad, if not far worse!
Okay, so now the monastics are our infallible pope. Roll Eyes Get real.

That site doesn't say anything more than what you've already said. At least as far as the Drugs section is concerned, no reference to Scripture, no reference to the Holy Fathers, no reference to Tradition, just the same old unfounded statements you've been making on this thread.

How the hell can you expect marijuana to be in scripture, the fathers or holy tradition? It didn't become a widespread sin until the 20th Century. Use your common sense as an Orthodox Christian!
I AM using common sense. Of course marijuana is not in the Scriptures, but intoxicants such as wine are.

You know Protestantism is a heresy right? You know that smoking cigarettes is wrong right? You know that cutting yourself for attention is wrong right? You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right? Yet where in the Bible, in the Tradition of the Church, in the Holy Fathers are ANY of those mentioned specifically?
And where is your "common sense" found in the Scriptures? If you're going to call something a sin, then at least have the common courtesy to tell us exactly why it's a sin. Merely calling those who disagree stupid, dense, misguided, blind, whatever ad hominems you wish to attach to them for not seeing things as you do is not going to convince anyone that we should see your pet bugaboos as sins.

Being drunk is a sin, smoking cigarettes is a sin. It's not to difficult to see why smoking marijuana is a sin if you use common sense.
But what if I'm not using your "common sense"? Common sense is really a terrible argument, for it's too vague a concept, and it's too dependent on one's own subjective view of the world.

Pews were invented by the heretical Protestants so they could sit on their duffs while they taught heresies within their churches. You cannot worship God sitting on your butt, only standing, kneeling or prostrate.
Again, says who?

We don't sit in worship, we stand, we always have and we always should unless we are sick, old or otherwise infirm or nursing.
Says who?

There absolutely cannot be ANY instruments in worship. That IS in the Fathers, which I have quoted earlier in this thread.
WHY did the Fathers oppose instrumental worship? Why must we follow their opposition to instrumental music in church as though their opposition is an eternal principle that transcends all of human history and culture? Cannot their opposition have been conditioned by the cultural influences they were forced to address in their place and time? As a church musician myself, I can think of some very good reasons why I don't like instruments in church, but they're not based on a blind, thoughtless, uncritical obedience to pastoral directives intended for particular places and times.
Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.

I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:48:52 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #145 on: February 12, 2012, 12:48:35 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.
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« Reply #146 on: February 12, 2012, 12:49:48 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Are you calling the holy, pure, unblemished and perfect Orthodox Church a cult?
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« Reply #147 on: February 12, 2012, 12:50:36 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
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« Reply #148 on: February 12, 2012, 12:51:36 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Are you calling the holy, pure, unblemished and perfect Orthodox Church a cult?
Give it up, Devin. You know full well I'm not.
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« Reply #149 on: February 12, 2012, 12:52:31 AM »

You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right?

How exactly is having a blood disorder or an eating disorder a sin?
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« Reply #150 on: February 12, 2012, 12:53:58 AM »


Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).
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« Reply #151 on: February 12, 2012, 12:55:03 AM »

You know that anemia and bulemia are sins right?

How exactly is having a blood disorder or an eating disorder a sin?

Yeah, messed up on the blood disorder, I just got news a friend has it, and for some reason I wrote that down instead of anorexia.

Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.
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« Reply #152 on: February 12, 2012, 12:56:01 AM »


Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves. The socially liberal should have no say in the Orthodox Church whatsoever.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 12:59:09 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #153 on: February 12, 2012, 12:58:48 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.
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« Reply #154 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:06 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?
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« Reply #155 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:32 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.

Are you sure that isn't just your post-Enlightenment side speaking? The so-called Enlightenment was purely evil, and we should stray away from it.
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« Reply #156 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:42 AM »


Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves.
Someone disagrees with you, so you call him a liberal. Roll Eyes Don't you know that ad hominems are used only by those incapable of putting up a good, logical defense of their arguments?
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« Reply #157 on: February 12, 2012, 01:00:59 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.

Are you sure that isn't just your post-Enlightenment side speaking? The so-called Enlightenment was purely evil, and we should stray away from it.
Again, says who?
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« Reply #158 on: February 12, 2012, 01:01:42 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?
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« Reply #159 on: February 12, 2012, 01:03:33 AM »

Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.
Why not? Because you say so?

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.
And people who blindly accepted what others taught them without exercising their own God-given discernment ended up dead as a result.

Repost as reply (since I edited it later)
I don't ask why I can't stand in front of the altar, I don't ask why I can't serve the Eucharist, I don't ask why I can't play a guitar in church, I don't ask why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I don't ask why I can't cense the Church, I don't ask why I can't get drunk, I simply accept it as what is true, and as something I cannot change, and that will never ever be changed. It is the truth and I accept it as it is because it is the truth and it is how it is.
I know why I can't stand in front of the altar, I know why I can't serve the Eucharist, I know why I can't play a guitar in church, I know why we don't commune non-Orthodox, I know why I can't cense the Church, I know why I can't get drunk, because I asked questions and recognize why it is true and why I don't want to change it. I know why I believe it is the truth, and knowing as I do, I accept it as true. The Church never asks anyone to shut off their brains as they enter her doors, and I believe it my God-given task to use mine.

Are you sure that isn't just your post-Enlightenment side speaking? The so-called Enlightenment was purely evil, and we should stray away from it.
Again, says who?

It was started by the godless, by deists, by non-christians who rebelled against Christianity. They were sick, twisted and purely motivated by Satan, just as Joseph Smith was deceived by Satan, just as the Pope was motivated by Satan to desire more power than was allotted to him. Just as Satan led Nestorius into his blasphemous teachings.

You can't trust non-Christians, you can't trust atheists, you can't trust deists to be faithful to God, you can't trust them to make good Christian decisions, you can't trust them to have a Godly philosophy, science or anything because they are all separated from his Church.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 01:04:46 AM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #160 on: February 12, 2012, 01:22:48 AM »


Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves. The socially liberal should have no say in the Orthodox Church whatsoever.
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party, Mr McCarthy.

You know what sounds unbelievably "Progressive", though? Putting new lines down on the ground where none existed before. Sounds like the textbook definition to me (And everybody knows that Progressivism is in direct contradiction to a Church that hasn't changed its Liturgy in the past 600 years).
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« Reply #161 on: February 12, 2012, 01:30:42 AM »


Reposting as a reply:
There are some things we should just not question and accept them as they are.

People who doubted and questioned, and pushed the boundaries led to the heresies of atheism and the so-called enlightenment. It led to the sick and twisted art forms, architecture forms and philosophic ideas of the 19th and 20th Centuries. There is a line you do not cross, you don't question the line, you don't try to push the line, you simply accept it where it is and work within the lines.



I think the objection here is that the line wasn't there yesterday.

And yes, marijuana use (if not smoking) has been known to just about every society throughout human history. It was not until the 20th century that anyone started to see it as a problem (because the one society where it wasn't known was white, Anglo-Saxon, and Protestant, who were kind of miffed about their whole Prohibition getting overturned and had to find a new way to try to attack them darn Catholic immigrants).

Are you socially Liberal?

That sounds like a typically liberal excuse for trying to justify a sin for themselves. The socially liberal should have no say in the Orthodox Church whatsoever.
I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party, Mr McCarthy.

You know what sounds unbelievably "Progressive", though? Putting new lines down on the ground where none existed before. Sounds like the textbook definition to me (And everybody knows that Progressivism is in direct contradiction to a Church that hasn't changed its Liturgy in the past 600 years).

How do you explain the fact that marijuana is illegal in both Greece & Russia (and every other Orthodox nation)?

and... http://www.antiochian.org/alcohol_and_drug_abuse
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« Reply #162 on: February 12, 2012, 01:31:35 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.
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« Reply #163 on: February 12, 2012, 01:32:45 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

sin is not a rule you break, it is something you do that hurts yourself and/or others around you. Its something that separates you and God.
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« Reply #164 on: February 12, 2012, 01:35:06 AM »

"Why else would healthy boys and girls inject wretched drugs into their veins and fill their lungs with pot? Or give sexual favors to virtual strangers? Or even commit suicide? Their behavior has been warped by enormous social pressures in an environment of confused values and unmet needs. The "false messiahs and false prophets" of today are alcohol, marijuana, hard drugs, pornography, gambling, homosexual experimentation, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and morally irresponsible abortion."

from: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7125

So there we have an OCA Parish, the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Greek Archdiocese, a (presumably Greek) Priest, plus the fact that marijuana is illegal in all Orthodox countries.

You need any more proof that it is sinful?

So far, I actually have reliable evidence that it is sinful, maybe you need to find proof for yourself that it isn't a sin from actual Orthodox jurisdictions and Orthodox figures.
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« Reply #165 on: February 12, 2012, 01:45:26 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

sin is not a rule you break, it is something you do that hurts yourself and/or others around you. Its something that separates you and God.

I see. An eating disorder certainly hurts you and others around you, and may separate you from God (although as I'm sure you know a great many people in the history of the faith have grown closer to God through similar struggles), but I guess this makes very little sense to me because as a physical manifestation of what is essentially a mental illness/disturbance, I don't see how it is all that different than something that would be less obvious and may go undetected (and hence not cause you to harm yourself or others), like schizophrenia. Would you say that schizophrenia is a sin?
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« Reply #166 on: February 12, 2012, 02:07:57 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?

"Need" might not be the way I'd think of it, but I would like to know where you're getting this idea from. It's certainly a problem, and something to be prayed about and discussed with your priest, but a sin...I'm not sure I understand how or why that is.

sin is not a rule you break, it is something you do that hurts yourself and/or others around you. Its something that separates you and God.

I see. An eating disorder certainly hurts you and others around you, and may separate you from God (although as I'm sure you know a great many people in the history of the faith have grown closer to God through similar struggles), but I guess this makes very little sense to me because as a physical manifestation of what is essentially a mental illness/disturbance, I don't see how it is all that different than something that would be less obvious and may go undetected (and hence not cause you to harm yourself or others), like schizophrenia. Would you say that schizophrenia is a sin?

It isn't just a mental illness that manifests itself physically, just as the mental ill ess is not just a chemical imbalance. It all originates (most often) with the soul, and vice versa. Your whole body is connected intimately. If I have a cold, I seek repentance for my sins, pray for healing, look for what could be wrong with my soul. Yet because it's also a physical manifestation, I also must seek help from a licensed doctor and sometimes seek the aids of medication, extra sleep, etc...

If one has a mental illness of any kind, they must go to both their Priest and to a Psychologist. Maybe even other experts.
Therefore they treat their whole entire body...

If I look at something Bad like goreand violence in a movie, I have scarred my soul. I've not just been tempted, but freely allowed the image to enter into my body, wounding me. It arises physical passions within my body, and may even deaden my soul, which could lead to a mental state of apathy.
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« Reply #167 on: February 12, 2012, 02:39:24 AM »

"Why else would healthy boys and girls inject wretched drugs into their veins and fill their lungs with pot? Or give sexual favors to virtual strangers? Or even commit suicide? Their behavior has been warped by enormous social pressures in an environment of confused values and unmet needs. The "false messiahs and false prophets" of today are alcohol, marijuana, hard drugs, pornography, gambling, homosexual experimentation, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and morally irresponsible abortion."

from: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7125

So there we have an OCA Parish, the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Greek Archdiocese, a (presumably Greek) Priest, plus the fact that marijuana is illegal in all Orthodox countries.

You need any more proof that it is sinful?

So far, I actually have reliable evidence that it is sinful, maybe you need to find proof for yourself that it isn't a sin from actual Orthodox jurisdictions and Orthodox figures.
A little hint for you: "reliable" is that which will convince those other than yourself whom you wish to convince. Again, no evidence from basic principles found in Scripture, no evidence from basic principles taught by the Fathers, no evidence from principles found in our Tradition, no writings of bishops, just a handful of Web sites apparently cherry picked to support your point of view. I got in a debate recently with someone else who posited that the word of a bishop has more authority than the Web pages of a diocese or parish, Web pages quite often published by a Webmaster without being first reviewed by a bishop. I'm beginning to see a lot of wisdom in his arguments. Why should I deem as authoritative the word of the Webmasters of an OCA parish, the Antiochian Archdiocese, the Greek Archdiocese, and a ROCOR priest who hates tobacco? Why should I accept as representative of the Orthodox Church the laws passed by those governments of predominantly Orthodox nations? Do you not realize that those governments are fundamentally secular in nature and may not represent the influence of the constituent Orthodox churches?
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« Reply #168 on: February 12, 2012, 02:42:50 AM »

Quote
Seriously? We are Orthodox, we don't separate the soul from the body. I hope you know that. Sins manifest themselves both physically and spiritually.

I know that sins manifest themselves physically, and yes I am being serious. Please answer my question. How is having an eating disorder a sin?

Just think about it, use common sense... Do you really need an explanation?
Yes, we need an explanation.
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« Reply #169 on: February 12, 2012, 04:32:45 AM »

"Why else would healthy boys and girls inject wretched drugs into their veins and fill their lungs with pot? Or give sexual favors to virtual strangers? Or even commit suicide? Their behavior has been warped by enormous social pressures in an environment of confused values and unmet needs. The "false messiahs and false prophets" of today are alcohol, marijuana, hard drugs, pornography, gambling, homosexual experimentation, pre-marital and extra-marital sex, and morally irresponsible abortion."

from: http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7125

Clarifying the why of the quote since it was clear it was not a free floating statement:
"Television and movies hammer away at moral values and ethical principles. Any form of restraint and self-discipline is ridiculed by the media, friends and acquaintances. Rock concerts, rappers and MTV have a unique way of subjecting masses of emotionally needy kids to deafening sounds, abnormal noises, eerie lights, wild behavior and godless philosophies."

I do not understand you Devin. This is not a critique, but how do you see the role/necessity of humility in our lives and why. I am only asking because I thought humility was central such that I continue to strive towards it but I see little of it in this thread.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, I posited that the innovation of organs in church was from the Orthodox and not the Roman Catholics and that we disseminated this practice early on. There has been no refutation, yet the heretical West is still blamed.  Church fathers are known to be against organs but none have yet to be quoted with or without links to further this discussion.

On a personal note, not that it is particularly relevant, organs adapted towards Western musical tonality does not mesh particularly well with Byzantine hymns. On the other hand, I appreciate organists who perform their own interpretation of the hymns at the end of the service.
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« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2012, 02:52:18 PM »

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim that an individual can regularly indulge a sin right up until their death and still be a saint. So by this logic, I could visit a prostitute every week and still be a saint? I could embezzle money from my parish, keep the money, and still be a saint?

(What seem obvious is that rather than looking to the examples of the Fathers and Saints, you are simply importing your Puritan-influenced modern American morality into the Church and then looking for contemporary sources to validate you. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff is a respected archpriest--but he's no St. John).
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« Reply #171 on: February 12, 2012, 02:55:11 PM »

In my parish today, the choir and the organist had the day off, so it was just Father and the chanters. I guess I really have gotten used to the organ.
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« Reply #172 on: February 12, 2012, 06:36:37 PM »

Speaking of true Scotsman, St John Maximovitch was a heavy chain-smoker. Guess he must have been canonized by that other Orthodox Church.

And? No one ever said the Saints didn't sin. Smoking is a sin, and you cannot change that, no one can change that.

This is the first time I have ever heard anyone claim that an individual can regularly indulge a sin right up until their death and still be a saint. So by this logic, I could visit a prostitute every week and still be a saint? I could embezzle money from my parish, keep the money, and still be a saint?

(What seem obvious is that rather than looking to the examples of the Fathers and Saints, you are simply importing your Puritan-influenced modern American morality into the Church and then looking for contemporary sources to validate you. Fr. Alexander Lebedeff is a respected archpriest--but he's no St. John).


While the marijuana debate is still up in the air, smoking cigarettes most certainly is not, it is a sin that cannot be denied.

Antiochian Archdiocese: Drinking & Smoking by Fr Joseph Purpura
http://www.antiochian.org/drinking_smoking

Greek Archdiocese: The Stand of the Orthodox Church on Controversial Issues by Fr. Stanley Harakas
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Archangel Michael & St. Bishoy Coptic Orthodox Church: Is Smoking a Sin by  Fr. Antonios Kaldas
http://www.stbishoy.org.au/modules/smartfaq/faq.php?faqid=64

Orthodox Info: A Conversation about Modernism by Fr. Alexander Lebedeff
http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/tradmod_intro.aspx

Orthodox Answers, by Fr. Laurent
http://www.orthodoxanswers.org/answer/1073/

In the 17th Century, the Russian Czar banned the use of tobacco and the Greek Orthodox Church followed suit the same year.

Furthermore, I doubt if you know that our clergy and monastics are forbidden from smoking, and our laity are encouraged to stop doing so.

While not worth anything as proof, I've also spoken to faithful from Orthodox countries who confirm that they are encouraged to quit smoking by the Church in their native lands.

Oh, and our Saints aren't required to be perfect or completely free of any sin. The last Czar and his family played with superstition and very dangerous and possibly evil things, just look at Rasputin. Yet they are canonized, not because of their Orthodox behavior, but because they became martyrs for the faith.
Constantine wasn't baptized till the end of his life (and then by a heretic) yet he is remembered as a Saint in our Church.

We don't assume that the Saints lived perfect lives, there is only one who was absolutely perfect in every way, that was Christ. There is only one other who has come close to that, and it was Mary. All of the rest of us strive to become like them to the best of our abilities, but the vast majority of us fall short. Does that mean none of us are worthy to be saints? Certainly not! We don't ask that our Saints should have lived perfect lives and be completely free of any and all sin upon their deaths.
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« Reply #173 on: February 12, 2012, 06:43:01 PM »

Did Concilliar Press release a tract about smoking yet?

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« Reply #174 on: February 12, 2012, 06:45:13 PM »

Did Concilliar Press release a tract about smoking yet?

There is a book called Smoking and the Orthodox Christian by Constantine Cavarnos, but I don't think Conciliar Press has released a tract about it yet.
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« Reply #175 on: February 12, 2012, 06:53:51 PM »

a) You didn't answer my question. If St. John could be a saint while being a chain-smoker, can I be a saint while regularly patronizing prostitutes? If not, why not?

b) All the websites and priests in the world don't have the authority of a single bishop or saint. When any of those individuals is recognized as a saint like St. John then I'll take their opinions about sanctity on balance with his. When one of their bishops publicly preaches this as the teaching of the Church, you'll have your first piece of evidence that that is actually the case.

c)
Quote
Furthermore, I doubt if you know that our clergy and monastics are forbidden from smoking, and our laity are encouraged to stop doing so.

Care to actually prove that? Because in addition to St. John (who was both), I've know several monks and clergy who apparently didn't get the memo.