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Author Topic: Organs in Orthodox?  (Read 8898 times) Average Rating: 0
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yeshuaisiam
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« on: February 08, 2012, 10:43:47 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 10:52:59 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

It's a more or less uniquely American phenomenon (although I know someone's going to say there was an organ in the Agia Sophia at some point), so it's fairly limited. It's just an attempt to fit in and seem less foreign to the rest of American society, while throwing the Orthodox musical traditions out the window. I don't think it's necessarily related to ecumenism though.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 11:00:52 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!

Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 11:06:00 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

As I recall in the mid-90's, the Patriarch had an article published in Frank Schaeffer's publication where the Patriarch was very critical of the use of organs among other things.   Of course, I also recall that not long after the article was published, someone donated a new organ to one of the parishes in NYC!
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 11:15:48 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!
Saying that Orthodox shouldn't have organs is tantamount to Gnosticism.
Quote
Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink
I think it often results from Orthodox parishes buying old Catholic or Protestant Churches with organs installed and not wanting them to go to waste. This is all well and good as far as I can tell, but somebody should consider writing a new arrangement of the Divine Liturgy that doesn't sound awful with instrumental accompaniment.
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 11:18:01 PM »

On the aesthetic front- this is one of the better uses of an organ and choir that I've heard at a Greek parish.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 11:19:10 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!

Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink

Heh, yeah THOSE kind of pipes Wink
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 11:21:04 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

As I recall in the mid-90's, the Patriarch had an article published in Frank Schaeffer's publication where the Patriarch was very critical of the use of organs among other things.   Of course, I also recall that not long after the article was published, someone donated a new organ to one of the parishes in NYC!

Yeah I was finding the irony very odd... I mean some parishes even down to no lighting & only candles to keep tradition.  Some with no seating except for the infirmed.... But to use an organ in prayer...  I'm kind of rendered speechless with the understanding of Orthodoxy that I have.
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 11:51:49 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

As I recall in the mid-90's, the Patriarch had an article published in Frank Schaeffer's publication where the Patriarch was very critical of the use of organs among other things.   Of course, I also recall that not long after the article was published, someone donated a new organ to one of the parishes in NYC!

Yeah I was finding the irony very odd... I mean some parishes even down to no lighting & only candles to keep tradition.  Some with no seating except for the infirmed.... But to use an organ in prayer...  I'm kind of rendered speechless with the understanding of Orthodoxy that I have.
You done a search yet for other OC.net threads on this subject? I've added a tag to this thread to help you out.
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 11:56:49 PM »

I'll have you know that there are many "organs in Orthodox". In fact, I don't think I could live without them, and I believe I have not seen a single Orthodox without an organ!

I mean, honestly, how is it possible to be Orthodox without an organ? How would our blood move without a heart, or food be digested without a stomach? Organs are in Orthodox just like other people!
Saying that Orthodox shouldn't have organs is tantamount to Gnosticism.
Quote
Oh, I'm sorry...did you mean Organs in Orthodox parishes? Sorry....never mind!  Wink
I think it often results from Orthodox parishes buying old Catholic or Protestant Churches with organs installed and not wanting them to go to waste. This is all well and good as far as I can tell, but somebody should consider writing a new arrangement of the Divine Liturgy that doesn't sound awful with instrumental accompaniment.


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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 12:06:40 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

It has nothing to do with ecumenism. When Arab and Greek immigrants arrived way back when, they adopted the use of pews and organs because those were the things to have. It was more of a blending in kind of thing.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 01:50:04 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

If you were allowed to speak at an ecumenical council against organs (ruck positive rather than sex) what danger to the Orthodox faith do you think it poses? I have never understood this nor have I paid attention to the issue of organs because I thought it was silly, thus the question.
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »

If you were allowed to speak at an ecumenical council against organs (ruck positive rather than sex) what danger to the Orthodox faith do you think it poses? I have never understood this nor have I paid attention to the issue of organs because I thought it was silly, thus the question.

The music we use in Church should reflect and encourage the sobriety and prayerfulness appropriate to Christian piety. The Fathers of the Church spoke against the use of musical instruments because they belong to the earthly realm, whether it's an organ, a flute, or full blown rock band.
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 12:27:29 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFPLaGPyqYY&feature=related

If I'm not mistaken, the Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew is present.  Is this from ecumenism?

Thoughts? Comments?  I'm interested in hearing opinions.

If you were allowed to speak at an ecumenical council against organs (ruck positive rather than sex) what danger to the Orthodox faith do you think it poses? I have never understood this nor have I paid attention to the issue of organs because I thought it was silly, thus the question.

I often wondered why the Slavic Orthodox did not emulate their Greek and Arab brothers in coming to America by adopting organs and musical instrumentation in their parishes. You will find a lot of western things in the first Greek Catholic church structures built in the late 19th and early 20th centuries - most still Byzantine Catholic or Ukrainian Greek Catholic, some of them OCA, some ACROD, some UOCUSA a few ROCOR but I daresay you would never, ever find an organ ( of if they were in an old Protestant building they never used it.) Likewise, even during the height of Latinization in the building of newer BCC or UGCC church buildings in the 1940's and 1950's there were no organs.

For what it's worth, I will pass along something I heard from a long dead priest who came to this country as a married Greek Catholic priest and eventually became part of the group of priests who came into Orthodoxy with the founding of ACROD in 1938.  

When the question came up why this was so regarding organs in the Greek churches but not the Slavs, the old priest gave a pretty insightful answer.

He observed that in the 'old Country' (mostly the former A-H empire, today parts  of this 'kraju' are in Slovakia, Hungary, Poland and Ukraine) organs were for the 'Rimsky Katoliks' not the 'nasej' as the RCC's were 'different' than they were. He believed in his heart of hearts that more eastern consciousness and 'praxis' survived following the centuries of the unia than many Orthodox are willing to credit those people. Certainly St. Alexis and +Metropolitan Orestes Chornock knew this as well as those who remained Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 12:31:49 PM »

I know in our parish, an electric organ is used simply for tone. A note or two is played so we're in the same pitch, and thats it.

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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 12:38:18 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 12:56:10 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 01:11:33 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

So has the wrong file ever been put up? Like your priest's vacation pictures? LOL

PP
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 01:17:50 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...

No I'm not, we have the Liturgy book posted through PowerPoints in Ge'ez, and translations in Amharic and English, to help the people follow along and understand what they are praying, and it has been a beautiful addition, even if folks in Ethiopia accused us of turning the Churdch into a Cinema Bet Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 01:19:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 01:21:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.

I've been told that my parish was one of the pioneer innovators in California to introduce this practice, and now I have seen its quite common at least here in LA just about all the OO parishes use the same kinds of powerpoints Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 01:26:45 PM »

Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.

I don't think I've ever been to a Coptic parish that didn't use PowerPoint slideshows during services.
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« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 01:33:44 PM »

Here in Albuquerque, we use powerpoints from St. Mark's in New Jersey (never any instruments beyond the traditional, though; how would you even adapt Coptic chant forms to the organ?). I figure they were here before I got here, so there is no use in complaining about them. Besides, we have several aged members whose eye-sight and command of English (~70% of the liturgy) is probably not the greatest, so having a large screen with all three languages on it is good for them. I have noticed that it does tend to make people overly dependent on it, though. We've never had any slip-ups on the order of abouna's vacation photos showing up, but last weekend one of those infernal "automatic updates" for some part of the computer's system popped up and blocked the text for quite a while as the poor servant who ran the machine tried to get it to go away...almost immediately, the people's part in the hymn dropped out, leaving only the deacons singing straight from the service books, who then of course stopped because they thought they had gone over time and must be intruding on the next part of the liturgy, as the people had stopped. It was quite chaotic...though this kind of chaos is not unknown to us, as we are a very small community, worshiping in an individual home, so a few people being "off" in their part [responding in the wrong language, using the wrong tune, etc.] is really noticeable.

Perhaps the lesson in this is not to despise the screens, but to actually pay attention to what is going on and know your parts regardless. Shamefully, I am just as guilty as anyone, though I find myself more often struggling due to the changes in the melody of a given hymn than problems with the powerpoint (used to chanting the "Hiteniyat" in a certain way, it changes...well, I guess I stand here like an idiot now, just looking at the words, waiting for the invariant part to come back around). I'm hoping this is because of the lingering unfamiliarity of it all, and not a sign that I am as slow to learn as I probably am. Cheesy
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« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 02:04:00 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

When my Ethiopian parish here in LA first started using a keyboard as an organ, it causes scandal and outrage across Ethiopia! We caused the same drama when we introduced PowerPoints for the Liturgies..

In our tradition, each of the traditional instruments used for Church music have specific theological symbolism and connotations which do not translate to foreign instruments.  So it is very controversial issue for many folks.

Of course, these instruments weren't invented in and for the Church, they were adopted and the theology later developed and applied, so realistically to adapt for new instruments is just a revisited.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

PowerPoints? what??

I hope you're joking...
Why is that so controversial?  There's an Armenian parish in California that uses a PowerPoint slideshow to project the text of the services.  It's not too terribly uncommon in non-Orthodox churches as well.

There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do. Protestant and Catholic churches are heretical and we are wrong when we try to emulate them, especially when we implement pews, organs and other instruments.

Its like the idiots who put lights and such on the iconostasis and turn something that is holy to looking like a neon sign in the red light district.

No instruments in worship, save for certain Oriental and African parishes who use drums in worship. The walls are meant to be filled with icons, not for a projection of something. White walls should only be temporary, and eventually should be filled up with icons over time.

Unless your parish comes out of Africa, or is an Oriental Orthodox parish, it should not have any instruments. There should not be any chairs save for a few along the walls for the elderly and the infirm. You can worship God on your feet and on your knees, but you cannot worship him on your butt.

Instead of spending money on a projector, you could spend that same money on simple and cheap liturgical books that serve the same purpose, and also on iconography to adorn the walls rather than a fake projection.
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 02:07:34 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do.


I am sorry you feel that way but there is no need to be so crass  Tongue

Please explain what might the difference be between people reading from printed or even hand-written Liturgy books and from them reading the same materials on a screen? Honestly, is it merely the technology that upsets you? The written word is a technological revolution, ask the illiterate, paper is a revolution, remember velum?  The Church had adapted and adopted to technology each generation, and there are always rightful critics and detractors, and while I can understand our Christological disputes, but honestly I don't see how using a PowerPoint is exactly heretical Wink

Let me ask this, does you parish use other modern technologies during Liturgy like an amplified public audio system, or air conditioning, or just electric lights?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 02:11:51 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do.


I am sorry you feel that way but there is no need to be so crass  Tongue

Please explain what might the difference be between people reading from printed or even hand-written Liturgy books and from them reading the same materials on a screen? Honestly, is it merely the technology that upsets you? The written word is a technological revolution, ask the illiterate, paper is a revolution, remember velum?  The Church had adapted and adopted to technology each generation, and there are always rightful critics and detractors, and while I can understand our Christological disputes, but honestly I don't see how using a PowerPoint is exactly heretical Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.

We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs. Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing. The only bells we should have are real bells, not recordings of bells. There is a reason our churches were originally designed the way they were, and there are reasons why we need to be strict about our architecture.

I'm just frankly sick and tired of liberals and modernists trying to "modernize" things and change things to suit their heterodox desires. We aren't like the heretics and we don't just "modernize" ourselves. Modernism is opposed to Orthodoxy, and is one of the greatest heresies of our day.

Technology has its place, but that doesn't mean we can insert it into our worship services. Our Priests don't read the Gospel from Kindles, and we don't (or shouldn't) paint our icons with modern industrialized paint.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:23:04 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 02:25:54 PM »


I've always wondered why so many people actually use books during the Liturgy.

It's fine for visitors, or newbies....but, if the service is in your mother tongue....and you've been attending it for the past 50 years....why is your nose buried in a book?  I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.

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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2012, 02:26:14 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.
Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing.


You are splitting hairs and straddling converging and hypocritical views, but you are indeed free to them, but please try to be polite to those who disagree as we will try our best to be polite with you Smiley

why is your nose buried in a book? I think they get so distracted in finding which page they should be in, or wondering why the choir skipped over this or that....that they are completely distracted and miss the peacefullness and awesomeness that is before them.



This is partly why we switched to the PowerPoint, as the screen is just above the Altar, and our Liturgy is not completely in anyone's native tongue, rather in Ge'ez, hence why there are Amharic and English translations, and truthfully not all Ethiopians even speak Amharic!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2012, 02:28:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.
Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing.


You are splitting hairs and straddling converging and hypocritical views, but you are indeed free to them, but please try to be polite to those who disagree as we will try our best to be polite with you Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2012, 02:38:34 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2012, 02:41:09 PM »

There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do. Protestant and Catholic churches are heretical and we are wrong when we try to emulate them, especially when we implement pews, organs and other instruments.

Yes, we ought not imitate the non-Orthodox, but we also ought to remember that they are heretical for doctrinal reasons, not particular cultural expressions (though of course some things that are argued to be "cultural expressions" may themselves be heretical, e.g., certain veneration of the Mother of God popular among certain peoples and not others). I don't recall any doctrinal significance imparted to the use of the organ in the RCC, and indeed there are some churches within it that will not use it (thankfully).

Quote
Its like the idiots who put lights and such on the iconostasis and turn something that is holy to looking like a neon sign in the red light district.

It's not really like that at all, is it? You can have an organ without being gaudy. I have even seen a video of organ being used in the Syriac Orthodox Church, in a similar fashion to how it might be used by the Greeks (as a "drone" producing instrument). The organ was not given a place of prominence, either geographically or liturgically, in the church.

Quote
No instruments in worship, save for certain Oriental and African parishes who use drums in worship. The walls are meant to be filled with icons, not for a projection of something. White walls should only be temporary, and eventually should be filled up with icons over time.

In my church, the projector is placed in at such an angle that an icon never would be, in a place where people would not look for an icon (as they would have to be gathered opposite the deacons rather than in front of the altar to see it). I imagine that the placement of the projector in most, if perhaps not all, Coptic Churches similarly unobtrusive in terms of how it interacts with the layout of the church. I agree that in a perfect world it would not be there at all, but as it is, I think it is the best of all worlds, given the potential reasons for it being there (the elderly, English-as-a-second-language people, etc). It does not get in the way of the church being filled with icons. If it did, I'm sure abouna would ask to have it taken down.

Quote
Unless your parish comes out of Africa, or is an Oriental Orthodox parish, it should not have any instruments. There should not be any chairs save for a few along the walls for the elderly and the infirm. You can worship God on your feet and on your knees, but you cannot worship him on your butt.

My parish comes out of Africa and is an Oriental Orthodox parish...how about you stop telling other people who aren't even in your church how they can and cannot worship God. The young pregnant woman who shows up to every to liturgy...would you harangue her for not worshiping God on her feet? Or myself, as I am suffering with a long injury that makes it impossible for me to be on my feet for extended periods of time...will God reject my supplications? Please, do tell me what He would do with these cases. You seem to know. You seem to speak for Him.

Quote
Instead of spending money on a projector, you could spend that same money on simple and cheap liturgical books that serve the same purpose, and also on iconography to adorn the walls rather than a fake projection.

In addition to being none of your business, it is also not an "either-or" situation. Our humble meeting place here in Albuquerque has many icons AND a projector, and has chairs (not pews) which are there for those who need them, but do not stop anyone from being able to prostrate as is befitting certain parts of the liturgy, or to stand and pray or do any other thing that is part of the liturgy.

You're out of your element here, Donny., Devin. Focus on your own church and your own struggle, and those who you feel are wrong could use your prayers rather than condemnation, that they might return to the right practice, if you are right about what it is and what it isn't.
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2012, 02:43:26 PM »

Here in Albuquerque, we use powerpoints from St. Mark's in New Jersey (never any instruments beyond the traditional, though; how would you even adapt Coptic chant forms to the organ?). I figure they were here before I got here, so there is no use in complaining about them. Besides, we have several aged members whose eye-sight and command of English (~70% of the liturgy) is probably not the greatest, so having a large screen with all three languages on it is good for them. I have noticed that it does tend to make people overly dependent on it, though. We've never had any slip-ups on the order of abouna's vacation photos showing up, but last weekend one of those infernal "automatic updates" for some part of the computer's system popped up and blocked the text for quite a while as the poor servant who ran the machine tried to get it to go away...almost immediately, the people's part in the hymn dropped out, leaving only the deacons singing straight from the service books, who then of course stopped because they thought they had gone over time and must be intruding on the next part of the liturgy, as the people had stopped. It was quite chaotic...though this kind of chaos is not unknown to us, as we are a very small community, worshiping in an individual home, so a few people being "off" in their part [responding in the wrong language, using the wrong tune, etc.] is really noticeable.

Perhaps the lesson in this is not to despise the screens, but to actually pay attention to what is going on and know your parts regardless. Shamefully, I am just as guilty as anyone, though I find myself more often struggling due to the changes in the melody of a given hymn than problems with the powerpoint (used to chanting the "Hiteniyat" in a certain way, it changes...well, I guess I stand here like an idiot now, just looking at the words, waiting for the invariant part to come back around). I'm hoping this is because of the lingering unfamiliarity of it all, and not a sign that I am as slow to learn as I probably am. Cheesy

It's funny as you hear of the same among opera fans these days.....
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2012, 02:44:45 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:49:35 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2012, 02:46:10 PM »

There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do. Protestant and Catholic churches are heretical and we are wrong when we try to emulate them, especially when we implement pews, organs and other instruments.

Yes, we ought not imitate the non-Orthodox, but we also ought to remember that they are heretical for doctrinal reasons, not particular cultural expressions (though of course some things that are argued to be "cultural expressions" may themselves be heretical, e.g., certain veneration of the Mother of God popular among certain peoples and not others). I don't recall any doctrinal significance imparted to the use of the organ in the RCC, and indeed there are some churches within it that will not use it (thankfully).

Quote
Its like the idiots who put lights and such on the iconostasis and turn something that is holy to looking like a neon sign in the red light district.

It's not really like that at all, is it? You can have an organ without being gaudy. I have even seen a video of organ being used in the Syriac Orthodox Church, in a similar fashion to how it might be used by the Greeks (as a "drone" producing instrument). The organ was not given a place of prominence, either geographically or liturgically, in the church.

Quote
No instruments in worship, save for certain Oriental and African parishes who use drums in worship. The walls are meant to be filled with icons, not for a projection of something. White walls should only be temporary, and eventually should be filled up with icons over time.

In my church, the projector is placed in at such an angle that an icon never would be, in a place where people would not look for an icon (as they would have to be gathered opposite the deacons rather than in front of the altar to see it). I imagine that the placement of the projector in most, if perhaps not all, Coptic Churches similarly unobtrusive in terms of how it interacts with the layout of the church. I agree that in a perfect world it would not be there at all, but as it is, I think it is the best of all worlds, given the potential reasons for it being there (the elderly, English-as-a-second-language people, etc). It does not get in the way of the church being filled with icons. If it did, I'm sure abouna would ask to have it taken down.

Quote
Unless your parish comes out of Africa, or is an Oriental Orthodox parish, it should not have any instruments. There should not be any chairs save for a few along the walls for the elderly and the infirm. You can worship God on your feet and on your knees, but you cannot worship him on your butt.

My parish comes out of Africa and is an Oriental Orthodox parish...how about you stop telling other people who aren't even in your church how they can and cannot worship God. The young pregnant woman who shows up to every to liturgy...would you harangue her for not worshiping God on her feet? Or myself, as I am suffering with a long injury that makes it impossible for me to be on my feet for extended periods of time...will God reject my supplications? Please, do tell me what He would do with these cases. You seem to know. You seem to speak for Him.

Quote
Instead of spending money on a projector, you could spend that same money on simple and cheap liturgical books that serve the same purpose, and also on iconography to adorn the walls rather than a fake projection.

In addition to being none of your business, it is also not an "either-or" situation. Our humble meeting place here in Albuquerque has many icons AND a projector, and has chairs (not pews) which are there for those who need them, but do not stop anyone from being able to prostrate as is befitting certain parts of the liturgy, or to stand and pray or do any other thing that is part of the liturgy.

You're out of your element here, Donny., Devin. Focus on your own church and your own struggle, and those who you feel are wrong could use your prayers rather than condemnation, that they might return to the right practice, if you are right about what it is and what it isn't.

You clearly didn't understand a lot of what I said.... I said its okay to have certain instruments if your parish from Africa or an OO Church, its ok to have chairs, as long as they are only for the infirm, elderly and nursing.
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« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2012, 02:49:17 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?
No, I call a spade a spade, and your argument has no weight. Slinging mud wont change the fact it took me about 12 seconds to rip your argument to shreds.

Now, if you have some canon, or fathers, or anything authoratative to submit, I would listen to that. Until then, calm down. You're making yourself look silly.
PP
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2012, 02:49:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



There is a reason those non-Orthodox churches are non-Orthodox and heretical. We don't do as the heretics do.


I am sorry you feel that way but there is no need to be so crass  Tongue

Please explain what might the difference be between people reading from printed or even hand-written Liturgy books and from them reading the same materials on a screen? Honestly, is it merely the technology that upsets you? The written word is a technological revolution, ask the illiterate, paper is a revolution, remember velum?  The Church had adapted and adopted to technology each generation, and there are always rightful critics and detractors, and while I can understand our Christological disputes, but honestly I don't see how using a PowerPoint is exactly heretical Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It isn't the technology that is wrong, I sometimes use my iphone for prayers and to follow services. What is wrong, is using a projector in worship. Create phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare.

Worship is not something that you are meant to follow along with or read with, you participate in it, you read the prayers silently with the priest, respond to his petitions and participate fully. Worship is not a show, and it isn't a passive activity that we just sit and watch or listen to.

It is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with.

We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs. Even amplification systems should be done away with unless they are there to help those outside hear, or for those who are hard of hearing. The only bells we should have are real bells, not recordings of bells. There is a reason our churches were originally designed the way they were, and there are reasons why we need to be strict about our architecture.

I'm just frankly sick and tired of liberals and modernists trying to "modernize" things and change things to suit their heterodox desires. We aren't like the heretics and we don't just "modernize" ourselves. Modernism is opposed to Orthodoxy, and is one of the greatest heresies of our day.

Technology has its place, but that doesn't mean we can insert it into our worship services. Our Priests don't read the Gospel from Kindles, and we don't (or shouldn't) paint our icons with modern industrialized paint.

I know where you are coming from in spirit, but please - step back a bit as to not become an 'intellectual iconoclast.'

When you start messing with things which, for better or worse have been 't'radition for many you have to tread with caution and move slowly. In both the OCA and ACROD it has taken decades to wean many parishes away from some of the Latinizing innovations which mistakenly became beloved among the people. You just can't come in saying you are going to burn the pews and so on. I have know too many priests who tried that approach and, in the end, only they were 'burned.'

Time does move on and the external experience of the Orthodox way is not static over time and centuries. It may move imperceptibly at times, but it does move. If a small parish can not afford cast bells but a willing parishioner donates a modern synthesizer and amplifier which allows the parish to emulate the beautiful tonal modalities of old Russia, who are you to say 'throw it out' as if that were an 'evil eye.'

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes passion needs to be tamed.
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« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2012, 02:50:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:50:49 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2012, 02:52:02 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
That you're a Care bear  laugh laugh

PP
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« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2012, 02:52:06 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way
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« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2012, 02:52:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It seems a bit contradictory, because on the one hand it refers to you as Rastafarian, and then as Ethiopian Orthodox. You cannot be both, HIM is not God/Christ. You cannot be a Christian and believe that HIM is Christ.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:52:44 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2012, 02:53:29 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way
Devin still didn't answer my questions.....

PP
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Posts: 4,864



« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2012, 02:54:02 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism. I'm sick of people trying to champion the "university" as some high idea or goal. There is a reason many people go into the university and then fall into all sorts of vice and lose their faith. Instead of being a place where you can lead people to Christ and to the truth, its used to distort the truth, distort the gospel and lead people into liberal ideas and away from God. There is absolutely nothing logical or rational about that.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:55:43 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
primuspilus
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Inserting personal quote here.


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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2012, 02:55:54 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism.
So, still waiting for the answer to my questions.

PP
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:56:16 PM by primuspilus » Logged

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Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
88Devin12
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« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2012, 02:56:40 PM »

Quote
phone apps, print books, but don't put up a projector, since those walls should be adorned with icons and not be left bare
You dont need an entire wall to be bare for a projector.

Quote
t is good to provide translations for people, but take donations and come up with texts that people can hold and follow along with
So whats the difference between holding something and reading and looking at the wall and reading?

Quote
We don't "modernize" like the Protestants and the Catholics. We should burn our pews, and throw out our organs
Well then, pull the bulbs out and light only with candles and torches. Afterall, electric lighting used to be modern. How far back should we go? Should we throw away all books that were printed using a printing press? That was moden technology at one time...or only books printed with computer printers? Hmm? Today's passe' resources used to be modern innovations. Your rant is emotionally based and not based on logic.

PP

Who cares if it isn't from "logic"... Are you a rationalist heretic? Are you a product of the godless enlightenment?

Wasn't St. Nicholas' striking of the disgusting worm Arius out of his emotion more righteous than the rest of the Bishops who were trying to refute him "logically"?
(no, I'm not equating myself to Nicholas, and I'm not equating others to Arius, just drawing an example of supposed logic vs. emotion)

God have mercy on you if your mind is so muddled as to anathematize all who may dare to think rationally and those whose intellectual state (like all of us alive today who are university graduates and post-graduates) is a product of the Enlightenment and the leveling of class distinction and oppression which followed. I am sorry you feel that way

Modern university has been turned into a disgusting tool of the godless, anti-theists and by those who wish to destroy Christ's Church and any sense of Christian morality that exists in Western society. Its a haven of liberalism, secularism and atheism.
So, still waiting for the answer to my questions.

PP

you aren't going to get answers...
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HabteSelassie
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Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2012, 02:57:19 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!





One question, is it a Rasta church or an Ethiopian Orthodox Church?

What does my profile say Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie

It seems a bit contradictory, because on the one hand it refers to you as Rastafarian, and then as Ethiopian Orthodox. You cannot be both, HIM is not God/Christ. You cannot be a Christian and believe that HIM is Christ.

Blah Blah Blah Wink

Quote
Faith:    Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction:    Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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