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Author Topic: Messianic Judaism  (Read 8408 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 08, 2012, 05:08:39 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 05:49:09 PM »

I do not like it. Such Judaizing groups are heretical. Read the outcome of the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts. We are not obliged by the Mosaic law but to a certain restricted degree (prohibitions against eating blood, fornication, and idolatry). It made sense in those early days to have such debates, since the earliest believers were either Jews themselves or clearly connected what would come to be known as Christianity with Judaism, but the modern groups claiming Jewish identity are about 1950 years late to the party. You will notice that the church with perhaps the most obvious outward signs of connection to Judaism in a ritual sense, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, does not hold the contradictory beliefs of "Messianic Jews", such as the man referenced in the Wikipedia article who quit the military rather than be adorned with a symbol of the cross, as he held such to be contradictory to his beliefs!

Note to Messianic Jews out there: This is Christianity, and it means something much more than a hodgepodge of Evangelicalisms and Hebraisms. When you die, God will not ask you how you pronounced "Chanukkah", so stop the pretending and posing and pick a street. We already did at the council of Jerusalem in AD 50.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 05:54:53 PM »

I'm no expert, but I find it to be quite silly.

It seems nothing more than a rehash of certain Protestant ideology, combined with speculative/revisionist history, and a bunch of nifty "Judaic" jargon terms and accoutrement.

People frequently make stuff up as they go along, but to me, the arrogance related to their "creative license" is over-the-top.
It's one thing for a [insert Evangelical denomination or non-denom] to say: "Well, I read the Bible, and this is what the passage means [to me]"  It's quite another to say: "Well, I read the Bible, and this is how services should be performed and all of the early followers [Gospel writers, disciples of Christ] were wrong, but we're right. We've rediscovered [by making it up], nearly 2,000 years later, what the faith should've been"

Some of the assumptions associated with Messianic Judaism, e.g. the importance of exclusively using the 10-12 Hebrew words they know, are laughable. 

I find it difficult to understand how otherwise intelligent people could fall for this.  I do understand the desire to return to a form of the faith that is older than the PowerPoint/praise music dross that's out there, but there are better options.  Additionally, there is a pretty healthy little industry created for similar types of Judaizing.  Perhaps this helps them on their journey.

Ortho_Cat, opinions from both sides? 
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »

Note to Messianic Jews out there: This is Christianity, and it means something much more than a hodgepodge of Evangelicalisms and Hebraisms. When you die, God will not ask you how you pronounced "Chanukkah", so stop the pretending and posing and pick a street. We already did at the council of Jerusalem in AD 50.

Quote for awesomeness.
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 06:05:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I have no problems with Jews being blessed and coming into the Church.  I have no problems with Jews continuing to express their culture and ethnic identity as Jews, even converted to Christians. However, when Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews and Rabbis becoming Preachers in Protestant denominations try to make Christianity Jewish, they make a mistake. 


I am a Rastafari, and I continue to express my culture and my identity even as an Orthodox Christian.  However, recent accusations of myself or any others trying to change the Church are ridiculously unfounded.  The Church changes us.  So if Jews would like to come into the Church, they are perfectly welcome, in fact I pray earnestly that the ENTIRE WORLD come into the Church and see the Light.  However, if Jews think that somehow because the Apostles or Jesus Christ were 1st century Jews equates to Christianity having to readjust to contemporary definitions of Jewish culture, that is just play silly.  Jews can be Jews and Christians, but they can't expect Christians to somehow become Jews Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 09:33:16 PM »

It is niche marketing.  The target audience is Jews who convert to Protestantism.  The secondary market is Protestants who think lining their evangelicalism with some Jewish phrases and customs will get them closer to God.

I did find the link in the OP interesting.  Especially the early Jews-for-Jesus type of groups in the 1800's.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 10:19:33 PM »

I went to a Messianic Jewish service once.  (I was young and curious.)

I was asked if I was Jewish and the person seemed very disappointed when I said no.  The first part was a lot of singing, but with a Jewish feel.  They had some dancing off to the side. The dancing was circle dancing, sort of like kolo dancing.  After the singing there was a very long sermon.  And that was it.  
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 02:36:59 AM »

when i said I wanted opinion from both sides, i was referring to Orthodox and non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 11:39:19 AM »

when i said I wanted opinion from both sides, i was referring to Orthodox and non-Orthodox.

I don't really have much to offer…

I work with an Orthodox Jew that would claim they are no longer Jewish though by ethnicity they obviously are. (? I’ll leave that between them ?) I have been taught to stand arm in arm with anyone that proclaims Jesus Christ Lord Son of God, believes in the Trinity, and the Apostle Creed (I understand they do) as brethren. However, even prior to this post I have heard Christians make claim they are not ‘really Christians'. I honestly do not know enough about their theology to comment. It’s best to simply see myself as I am; a repenting fool that is best served to focus on my own issues of faith as opposed to defining someone else’s.
Objectively without agreement, or disagreement, I guess I would simply call them a Christian sect that is proud of, and wants to maintain, the culture and traditions of their heritage.
Why the need to form their own sect of Christianity as opposed to maintaining their proud heritage in a sect already existing? Man, I still have not completely figured out why Martin Luther didn't just become Orthodox!?   Wink

Peace & Grace
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 12:06:46 PM »

We have one or two on this forum actually.

IMHO it is simply an attempt for Protestants to have some historical roots to what they believe.

I must say, reading/listening to their explanation of the Council of Jerusalem is interesting to say the least.

PP
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 02:16:56 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 03:36:25 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 07:16:38 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 07:18:42 PM »

Restorationism +Generic Charismatic stuff + Hellenophobia + Misunderstandings of Rabbinic Judaism, IMO.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 08:50:24 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?
Well, as far as I know, the talmud really is why Orthodox Judaism is still around.

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Restorationism +Generic Charismatic stuff + Hellenophobia + Misunderstandings of Rabbinic Judaism, IMO.
Sounds like a plan my man  laugh laugh

PP
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 09:52:49 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 09:53:48 PM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 10:00:23 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 10:03:16 PM »

We have one or two on this forum actually.

IMHO it is simply an attempt for Protestants to have some historical roots to what they believe.

I must say, reading/listening to their explanation of the Council of Jerusalem is interesting to say the least.

PP

First robber synod in history!
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 10:21:11 PM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.

you're not a Christian anymore? MJ's believe in modalism?
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 11:54:29 PM »

Talk about pithiness:

Restorationism +Generic Charismatic stuff + Hellenophobia + Misunderstandings of Rabbinic Judaism

9 words to describe the religion.

oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

8 words to explain its justification.

Right on, from my eyes.
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 12:26:53 AM »

We have one or two on this forum actually.

IMHO it is simply an attempt for Protestants to have some historical roots to what they believe.

I must say, reading/listening to their explanation of the Council of Jerusalem is interesting to say the least.

PP

This is what i was thinking.  Its evangelicals trying to link themselves to some sort of tradition.
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 12:28:45 AM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

You get an A+ in illogical logic.
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 12:33:01 AM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.

you're not a Christian anymore? MJ's believe in modalism?

My apologies.  I was referring to several years ago when I was still a Protestant, and what reading Messianic Jewish writings - at that time - had done to me.  Anyways, some MJ's do in fact believe in modalism.  While the most talked about ones are off-shoots of the Evangelicals, some have either arisen from another point of origin, or went way off the rails from Evangelicalism.  MJ's range from Evangelicals with some cultural baggage, to, essentially, resurrecting every single Ebionite heresy.
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 01:19:03 AM »

Let's not forget the LARP points people earn for doing their r&b clap-a-long worship while wearing tallits, in front of a menorah.

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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2012, 01:21:23 AM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.

you're not a Christian anymore? MJ's believe in modalism?

My apologies.  I was referring to several years ago when I was still a Protestant, and what reading Messianic Jewish writings - at that time - had done to me.  Anyways, some MJ's do in fact believe in modalism.  While the most talked about ones are off-shoots of the Evangelicals, some have either arisen from another point of origin, or went way off the rails from Evangelicalism.  MJ's range from Evangelicals with some cultural baggage, to, essentially, resurrecting every single Ebionite heresy.

ah ok, my apologies as well.
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2012, 05:25:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How could I forget these folks

Larry and Tiz Huch, the super Jewish Jesus crew Wink

Quote
Discover the Jewish Roots of Your Christian Faith

Pastors Larry and Tiz have brought many powerful and life-changing revelations to the body of Christ including Breaking Family Curses and the 7 Places Jesus Shed His Blood. But perhaps the most extraordinary and important revelation is the teaching on the Jewish Roots of the Christianity. They absolutely believe this revelation is an essential part of what will usher in the return of our Messiah. Over the past decade Pastor Larry has become a recognized authority and acclaimed writer on this subject. His latest book, "Unveiling Ancient Biblical Secrets" and the best-selling book "The Torah Blessing" go into great depth and detail in explaining how and why the church needs to return to the ancient Hebrew understanding of the scriptures. It's a revelation that will bring the Bible to life as never before…and it's a valuable key to releasing new blessing and miracles into your life, ministry, family and finances.

Pastor Larry began this incredible journey about fifteen years ago, outside the ruins of an ancient synagogue in Capernaum.  God spoke to him in an appointed moment of time that He would teach him to re-read the Bible through the eyes of a Jewish Jesus.  It’s a journey that has led you here today and one that you may feel God is calling you to make personally.  Perhaps you’ve never really thought about the Bible as a Jewish book written by Jewish men.  Most people don’t even think about the fact that their Savior is Jewish, that He (Jesus) was born and raised in a Jewish home and was from the lineage of King David.   He went to the Temple, attended synagogue, studied Torah, celebrated Shabbat and all the Bible Holidays.  He was a Jewish Rabbi in Israel and lived what we consider an orthodox life; just as all of the Apostles, including Paul, Peter, John and James.

There is no where in scripture that says they forsook their Jewish roots; rather they all continued to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just as their forefathers only with the added revelation that Jesus (Yeshua) was and is the Messiah; fulfilling the prophecies and promises God made through the prophets like Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Isaiah.  Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that He did not come to abolish the Torah but rather to show you and I (the world) how to live it…not in a legalistic way but with love, joy and faith.  In these last days believers around the world are realizing what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11, that we are meant to be grafted in to the Jewish people and their salvation history.  And as you begin to discover and develop this revelation for yourself, a whole new understanding of God’s Word, promises and purpose for your life will emerge. So start your journey with us today, return to the rich heritage of your faith and experience a whole new dimension of spiritual purpose and destiny.

We encourage you to watch Pastors Larry and Tiz live webcast every Sunday at 10:00 am CST and Wednesday at 7:00pm. You can also stay up-to-date with our latest teachings by watching our weekly television broadcast, New Beginnings, on the Daystar Television Network or right here at larryhuchministires.com.

 
Scriptures to Study:

Acts 3:21, Acts 15, Acts 21:26, Romans 9-11, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:1-6, Ephesians 2:11-22, Genesis 12:1-3, Isaiah 51:1, 2, Jeremiah 6:16, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 37, Amos 9:11-15
http://www.larryhuchministries.com/Jewish_Roots/


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 05:48:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How could I forget these folks

Larry and Tiz Huch, the super Jewish Jesus crew Wink

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Discover the Jewish Roots of Your Christian Faith

Pastors Larry and Tiz have brought many powerful and life-changing revelations to the body of Christ including Breaking Family Curses and the 7 Places Jesus Shed His Blood. But perhaps the most extraordinary and important revelation is the teaching on the Jewish Roots of the Christianity. They absolutely believe this revelation is an essential part of what will usher in the return of our Messiah. Over the past decade Pastor Larry has become a recognized authority and acclaimed writer on this subject. His latest book, "Unveiling Ancient Biblical Secrets" and the best-selling book "The Torah Blessing" go into great depth and detail in explaining how and why the church needs to return to the ancient Hebrew understanding of the scriptures. It's a revelation that will bring the Bible to life as never before…and it's a valuable key to releasing new blessing and miracles into your life, ministry, family and finances.

Pastor Larry began this incredible journey about fifteen years ago, outside the ruins of an ancient synagogue in Capernaum.  God spoke to him in an appointed moment of time that He would teach him to re-read the Bible through the eyes of a Jewish Jesus.  It’s a journey that has led you here today and one that you may feel God is calling you to make personally.  Perhaps you’ve never really thought about the Bible as a Jewish book written by Jewish men.  Most people don’t even think about the fact that their Savior is Jewish, that He (Jesus) was born and raised in a Jewish home and was from the lineage of King David.   He went to the Temple, attended synagogue, studied Torah, celebrated Shabbat and all the Bible Holidays.  He was a Jewish Rabbi in Israel and lived what we consider an orthodox life; just as all of the Apostles, including Paul, Peter, John and James.

There is no where in scripture that says they forsook their Jewish roots; rather they all continued to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just as their forefathers only with the added revelation that Jesus (Yeshua) was and is the Messiah; fulfilling the prophecies and promises God made through the prophets like Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Isaiah.  Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that He did not come to abolish the Torah but rather to show you and I (the world) how to live it…not in a legalistic way but with love, joy and faith.  In these last days believers around the world are realizing what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11, that we are meant to be grafted in to the Jewish people and their salvation history.  And as you begin to discover and develop this revelation for yourself, a whole new understanding of God’s Word, promises and purpose for your life will emerge. So start your journey with us today, return to the rich heritage of your faith and experience a whole new dimension of spiritual purpose and destiny.

We encourage you to watch Pastors Larry and Tiz live webcast every Sunday at 10:00 am CST and Wednesday at 7:00pm. You can also stay up-to-date with our latest teachings by watching our weekly television broadcast, New Beginnings, on the Daystar Television Network or right here at larryhuchministires.com.

 
Scriptures to Study:

Acts 3:21, Acts 15, Acts 21:26, Romans 9-11, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:1-6, Ephesians 2:11-22, Genesis 12:1-3, Isaiah 51:1, 2, Jeremiah 6:16, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 37, Amos 9:11-15
http://www.larryhuchministries.com/Jewish_Roots/


stay blessed,
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and the covered looks weird(evangelical) also...
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 08:18:27 AM »

I do wonder if real Jews giggle when seeing/reading/watching MJ stuff.

I ask because I giggle when I see/hear Emergent Churchie folks crossing themselves or using pseudo-liturgical stuff, having no idea what they're doing.

PP
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 11:16:34 AM »

I do wonder if real Jews giggle when seeing/reading/watching MJ stuff.

I'm sure it's either that, or they cringe.
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »

Probably both. I have found many of them just want protestants to stop and leave them and their culture alone. Which I second, actually, even if I am not Jewish.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 01:44:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How could I forget these folks

Larry and Tiz Huch, the super Jewish Jesus crew Wink


They're on TV all the time. Sometimes I watch that stuff, because I think I have to be aware of what's out there. Whew.   Undecided
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2012, 06:57:31 PM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2012, 07:10:34 PM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?

Only if it conforms with Apostolic Tradition.
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2012, 07:13:48 PM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?

I don't think the Jews of the Old Testament period were wrong to rely on their oral tradition. I mean, our Lord frequented the synagogues, the very existence of which was not mandated by the Jewish scriptures.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 12:26:16 AM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?

I don't think the Jews of the Old Testament period were wrong to rely on their oral tradition. I mean, our Lord frequented the synagogues, the very existence of which was not mandated by the Jewish scriptures.

Though, it is important to keep in mind that there are two kinds of traditions, those of men and those of God.  Certainly, our Lord spoke out against some of their traditions, those that they created to circumvent the Law of God. 

Also, at times, when I've read commentaries of the great Jewish Rabbis and other Jewish extra-biblical works, it seems that a lot of it (especially that which originates in the time before and within a couple of centuries after Christ, as well as a lot of Hassidic stuff) seems to parallel the ideas of the Church Fathers.  Some of, also, has helped me to understand things that I've read in the Fathers, because it says essentially the same, but in another fashion.  Of course, much of it is also quite opposed to the teaching of the Church and the Fathers.
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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2012, 02:39:46 AM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead. I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.

Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah. The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined. Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

The apostles avoided the word "Christian"; inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it. And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2012, 03:00:50 AM »

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And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.

Obviously the book of Acts is not part of MJ scripture. Does the word Judaizer mean anything to you, mathetes?
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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2012, 03:04:32 AM »

I do wonder if real Jews giggle when seeing/reading/watching MJ stuff.

I ask because I giggle when I see/hear Emergent Churchie folks crossing themselves or using pseudo-liturgical stuff, having no idea what they're doing.

PP

I pray for them that they may come to the Truth.
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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2012, 03:09:05 AM »

I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah. The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.

The apostles avoided the word "Christian"; inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it. And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.[/size]

Right... So the Messianics began teaching some 1,930 plus years after Christ's death.  Most don't buy it. Of course Messianic teachings tend to use vague and utterly worthless terms such as "original Christianity."

It's kind of a neat idea I suppose, but I get a tad offended that Messianics (and some other Protestants) imply that the apostles and their followers were completely inept.  Simultaneously, that the Word of God [Most Messianics do read the New Testament right?] became man [Most Messianics believe this, right?], was killed, and the faith was hidden for almost 2,000 years before folk were able to "bring it back."  

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Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

For the most part, we wouldn't disagree with this.  We view (and have viewed since the Church was founded*ETA: by Jews) that "Christianity" is the genuine continuation of Judaism.  

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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2012, 03:12:17 AM »

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And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.

Obviously the book of Acts is not part of MJ scripture. Does the word Judaizer mean anything to you, mathetes?

Precisely.  But of course they discovered the real meaning of it in the late 1960s.

I pray for them that they may come to the Truth.

Indeed.  At least it seems as if they are searching for it.
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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2012, 03:19:53 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.
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« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2012, 03:32:50 AM »

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And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.

Obviously the book of Acts is not part of MJ scripture. Does the word Judaizer mean anything to you, mathetes?
The book of Acts is a favorite among Messianics. While I can't speak for everyone in Messianic Judaism, I can say that the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America doesn't Judaize.

Speaking of Acts, are you aware that the apostle Paul remained a Pharisee? Appearing before the Sanhedrin, he said, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee ..." (Acts 23:6 NKJV). This was after the apostles and he had this conversation:

"(17)And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. (18) On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. (19) When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. (20) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, 'You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; (21) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (22) What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. (23) Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. (24) Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. (25) But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality'" (Acts 21:15-23 NKJV).

Do you see how the apostle Paul continued to keep the Torah and how the apostles never forced the Jews to become Gentiles or the Gentiles to become Jews? That's the apostolic way of doing things.
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« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2012, 03:48:48 AM »

I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah. The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.

The apostles avoided the word "Christian"; inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it. And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.[/size]

Right... So the Messianics began teaching some 1,930 plus years after Christ's death.  Most don't buy it. Of course Messianic teachings tend to use vague and utterly worthless terms such as "original Christianity."

It's kind of a neat idea I suppose, but I get a tad offended that Messianics (and some other Protestants) imply that the apostles and their followers were completely inept.  Simultaneously, that the Word of God [Most Messianics do read the New Testament right?] became man [Most Messianics believe this, right?], was killed, and the faith was hidden for almost 2,000 years before folk were able to "bring it back."  

Quote
Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

For the most part, we wouldn't disagree with this.  We view (and have viewed since the Church was founded*ETA: by Jews) that "Christianity" is the genuine continuation of Judaism.

It's refreshing to hear you say Christianity is the genuine continuation of Judaism. That's a step in the right direction, although it overlooks the stumblingblock that results from saying the Jewish Messiah started a new religion.

I'm unaware that any rabbis in the MJAA ever said or implied that the apostles were inept. You're wrong, I believe, to say Messianics think the doctrine of the Messiah's incarnation, death, burial, and resurrection lay dormant until Messianics brought it back. What lay dormant was the Scriptural tolerance the apostles practiced. They let Jews stay Jews, and Gentiles stay Gentiles. They also didn't pressure them to follow the same diet and observe the same holydays (Romans 14).
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« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2012, 03:54:26 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?
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