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Author Topic: Messianic Judaism  (Read 9198 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2012, 04:01:15 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:07:07 AM by dzheremi » Logged

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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2012, 04:05:00 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?

Because you are not Apostles? Huh Roll Eyes
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« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2012, 04:12:05 AM »

Mathetes, here's the problem. Yes, the apostles permitted the Jewish Christians to retain their Jewish practices. They did not, however, hold Live Action Role Play seminars for Gentiles so that they could learn how to pretend to be Jews. Certain strains of "Messianic Judaism" bring in Gentiles and then have them LARP as Jews. This is, of course, absurd, blasphemous and hilarious at the same time.

Second point:

"Jews" ain't a single entity. Even back in the First Century A.D. and earlier. Christianity and Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism are the only two sects of Judaism to survive the Roman actions in the 1st Century, but they are not the same. Nor were they in agreement. Nor were they expected to be.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism (what you call Judaism) evolved a lot since the 1st Century A.D. The role of the synagogue changed, they formed a new philosophy, had many scholarly developments (such as the great Maimonides). Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism is not closer to the 1st Century Judaic milieu than Christianity is.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

I mean, if we're really all about "getting back to our roots" despite belief and praxis, why don't both groups start worshipping Ba'al, storm god of the Canaanites?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:14:35 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2012, 04:27:21 AM »

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

So true, and well stated!

I would say that if they are so interested in the practices of the first-century church, maybe these "Messianic Jews" ought to learn Syriac and celebrate according to the Liturgy of St. James.

This is Christianity

This is not

It is your choice. We made ours already in AD 50. Judaizing is not accepted.


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« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2012, 04:50:24 AM »

Unbelievable.  laugh
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« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2012, 09:00:08 AM »


Cannot un-see ...
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« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?
Times change. Back then, the term "Christian" was applied to us from outside. Now we apply the term to ourselves.
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« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2012, 02:16:40 PM »


Yeah, I think klezmer is supposed to be in tune, at least.
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« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 06:09:02 PM »

At :53 it gets soooo good though. Might be my next ringtone.
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« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2012, 06:09:02 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.
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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 10:11:09 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)

In the passage I quoted, the apostle James and the elders with him told Paul, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed ..." (Acts 21:20 NKJV). Thus, Jews who trusted in the Messiah were considered Jews who believe. This is evidence that the phrase "Jews for Jesus" is biblical and apostolic and that Jewish followers of the Messiah can remain Jews.
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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?

Because you are not Apostles? Huh Roll Eyes

Wow! You don't leave much room for discussion, do you?
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« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2012, 10:56:19 AM »

Mathetes, here's the problem. Yes, the apostles permitted the Jewish Christians to retain their Jewish practices. They did not, however, hold Live Action Role Play seminars for Gentiles so that they could learn how to pretend to be Jews. Certain strains of "Messianic Judaism" bring in Gentiles and then have them LARP as Jews. This is, of course, absurd, blasphemous and hilarious at the same time.

To respond, I need to know more about these role-playing seminars, especially since I don't recall any at my MJAA-affiliated synagogue. I don't see why role-playing is necessarily blasphemous (I concede, though, that it can get humorous at times). My secular work over the years entailed a lot of interviewing, and yes, my coworkers and I had to do some role-playing as part of our training. Role-playing is sometimes helpful for people who counsel or who witness for the Lord.

Second point:

"Jews" ain't a single entity. Even back in the First Century A.D. and earlier. Christianity and Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism are the only two sects of Judaism to survive the Roman actions in the 1st Century, but they are not the same. Nor were they in agreement. Nor were they expected to be.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism (what you call Judaism) evolved a lot since the 1st Century A.D. The role of the synagogue changed, they formed a new philosophy, had many scholarly developments (such as the great Maimonides). Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism is not closer to the 1st Century Judaic milieu than Christianity is.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

It's evident that you've looked into Judaism, and I appreciate your study. Yes, leaders who rejected Yeshua did mishna'ize or lead many followers astray. What the MJAA strives for is Biblical Judaism; consequently, certain Messianic customs such as biblical kosher versus rabbinic kosher differ from those found among people who identify themselves as Orthodox Jews. You're right about the disagreements over dates and calendars (those are problems that Messianics as well as EOs have had to deal with).

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

Consistent with apostolic practice, I've never urged you or anyone else on these forums to adopt Messianic Judaism. The MJAA treats Messianic Judaism as a special calling. Our synagogues include people who either come from a Jewish background or have a desire to minister to the Jewish people. Our practice of encouraging people to follow God's leading for their lives distinguishes us from Judaizers.

I mean, if we're really all about "getting back to our roots" despite belief and praxis, why don't both groups start worshipping Ba'al, storm god of the Canaanites?

You had a good post going. Too bad you messed it up with this foolish close.
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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2012, 11:10:29 AM »

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

So true, and well stated!

I would say that if they are so interested in the practices of the first-century church, maybe these "Messianic Jews" ought to learn Syriac and celebrate according to the Liturgy of St. James.

This is Christianity

This is not

It is your choice. We made ours already in AD 50. Judaizing is not accepted.

It's confusing why you object to the video from the Beth Messiah synagogue. Did you recognize that the synagogue's name means "House of Christ"?

Did you notice that the song, "It Is Good" by Paul Wilbur, is drawn from Psalm 92 (Psalm 91 LXX)? According to The Orthodox Study Bible, this psalm concerns the Sabbath day and is applicable today, especially as regards the rest that the Messiah has provided for the souls of all who trust in Him. The OSB adds that verses 2, 3, and 5 of the psalm are sung as the First Antiphon on a regular Sunday. Again, I can't help wondering what your beef is.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:16:53 AM by mathetes » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2012, 11:15:51 AM »


That song never struck me as klezmer. Anyway, God accepts joyful noises and no doubt considers the heart more important than any problems with intonation.
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« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2012, 11:27:28 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)

In the passage I quoted, the apostle James and the elders with him told Paul, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed ..." (Acts 21:20 NKJV). Thus, Jews who trusted in the Messiah were considered Jews who believe. This is evidence that the phrase "Jews for Jesus" is biblical and apostolic and that Jewish followers of the Messiah can remain Jews.
So they can recite the Amida, with its curse against the Christians, three times every day?
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« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2012, 11:37:31 AM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).
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« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2012, 11:40:53 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)

In the passage I quoted, the apostle James and the elders with him told Paul, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed ..." (Acts 21:20 NKJV). Thus, Jews who trusted in the Messiah were considered Jews who believe. This is evidence that the phrase "Jews for Jesus" is biblical and apostolic and that Jewish followers of the Messiah can remain Jews.
So they can recite the Amida, with its curse against the Christians, three times every day?

In my synagogue, an abridged Amidah for Sabbath and Festivals is recited. Of course, we don't recite anything that curses the Messiah or His followers.
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« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2012, 11:54:09 AM »

Quote
That song never struck me as klezmer. Anyway, God accepts joyful noises and no doubt considers the heart more important than any problems with intonation.

I wonder what He thinks of this then  Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8
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« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2012, 12:12:41 PM »

Quote
That song never struck me as klezmer. Anyway, God accepts joyful noises and no doubt considers the heart more important than any problems with intonation.

I wonder what He thinks of this then  Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8

Not much.  Grin
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« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2012, 12:31:01 PM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?

Because you are not Apostles? Huh Roll Eyes

Wow! You don't leave much room for discussion, do you?

Not when something is so cut and dry, I don't.
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« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2012, 03:47:10 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.
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« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2012, 04:14:15 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred
Roll Eyes
Quote
in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).
Χριστός>Χριστιανισμός
No Christ without Christianity.
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« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2012, 06:42:04 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.
Would you be willing to share some of those arguments here?
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« Reply #69 on: February 29, 2012, 12:08:44 AM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.

Please share a link to that forum and your thread since I'm curious what was said and whether any Messianic groups were identified. I have one problem with your assertion, and it's the word "all" (I may also have a problem with your term "branches"). I'd counter that not all Messianic denominations have embraced Talmudic laws and practices. So far as I know, the Messianic Jewish of Alliance of America, which I belong to, hasn't done that. We strive for a Biblical Judaism.

Anyone curious about the MJAA may read more at its web site, MJAA.org, or at IAMCS.org, the web site of the International Association of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues, which is responsible for ordaining the denomination's rabbis and congregations.
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« Reply #70 on: February 29, 2012, 12:27:10 AM »


There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.
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« Reply #71 on: February 29, 2012, 01:06:56 AM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."
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« Reply #72 on: February 29, 2012, 01:34:26 AM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Atta boy, William!  laugh
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« Reply #73 on: February 29, 2012, 11:30:41 AM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:33:00 AM by mathetes » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: February 29, 2012, 11:58:31 AM »



Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?
Ok, so if Christians are supposed to be under the law, then explain the following:

Quote
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross
Colossians 2:14
Quote
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away
2 Corinthians 3:14
Quote
Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second
Hebrews 10:9
and
Quote
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Galatians 6:14.


Christ came to fulfill the law, not enforce it.


PP
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« Reply #75 on: February 29, 2012, 12:44:17 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.
Would you be willing to share some of those arguments here?

I'll try Smiley

Quote
What are some common Messianic Jewish practices?

(Practices vary among congregations.)

*

Messianic Jews observe traditional Jewish holidays such as Purim and Chanukah, the ninth of Av and the Ten Days of Awe.

*

Messianic Jews observe the biblical feasts such as the Feasts of Trumpets, Tabernacles and Passover.

*

Messianic Jews worship on the biblical sabbath, i.e., Friday evening till Saturday.

*

Messianic Jews cant the Sh'ma, the kiddush and motzi, the Aaronic benediction, Etz Chaim, and many other parts of traditional Jewish liturgy.

* Messianic Jews say kaddish for those who have passed on.

* Messianic Jews cant the Torah portion in Hebrew at worship services.

* Messianic Jews bar mitzvah their sons and bat mitzvah their daughters.

*

Messianic preaching is mainly from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), although references to the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant) are not unusual.

*

Messianic Judaism emphasizes the special relationship between G-d and the Jewish people.

*

Messianic Judaism emphasizes Jewish traditions that do not conflict with the Bible. http://www.messianicjews.info/general/faq.html

Quote
It seems clear that Yeshua not only worshipped through the liturgy but also quoted it in the course of His teaching! Of course, He did warn of possible excesses and meaningless repetitions, but that had more to do with the heart attitude in worship than the content itself. When one’s heart is in tune with the Spirit of G-d, the liturgical expression can be a beautiful form indeed. Not surprisingly, we find the early Jewish believers expressing their worship of G-d in similar forms. We are told that they met “day by day in the Temple” (Acts 2:42-47), again implying active involvement in the traditional worship that they were accustomed to. In a fascinating note, it is even recorded that they were continually devoted…”to prayer.” The original language actually says “the prayers”, implying that it was more than just an unstructured prayer meeting, but they still incorporated elements of “the prayers” of their traditional Jewish liturgy. They, like us, would not agree with all the theology of the traditional Siddur, but there is much we can agree with and incorporate in our Messianic faith.

The traditional liturgy can be a beautiful vehicle for uniting us together in a spirit of praise. And the focus is not just our limited experience with G-d, but on the eternal truths of His Word. It makes sense, therefore, that even in eternity there will be a structure to our worship. I wonder how much of that will be similar to the structures already found in the Scriptures? One of the primary goals of the Messianic movement is to follow the Messiah within a biblically balanced Jewish culture. As our hearts are filled with the Spirit of G-d, it would seem that liturgy and Messianic worship can fit wonderfully together for the glory of Yeshua HaMashiach,. - Liturgy in Messianic Worship.By Barney Kasdan, Messianic Rabbi http://www.kehilatariel.org/wordpress/?page_id=251

Quote
Are Messianic Judaism and the Hebrew Roots Movement Talmudic?

by Michael D. Bugg

A frequent accusation by the opponents of Messianic Judaism and the Hebrew Roots movement as even being regarded valid expressions of faith in Yeshua is that our doctrine and practices are based on the Talmud, not on Scripture.  In truth, there are certainly Messianic individuals and groups for whom this is true; in fact, it is not unknown for some Messianics to go so far as to convert to Orthodox Judaism.  However, for most Messianics the place of the Talmud and other sources of Jewish tradition within a truly Biblical belief in Yeshua the Messiah, whether we term that faith Messianism or Christianity, is a matter of continuing discussion and debate.  Since no system of belief should be judged on its abuses—and indeed, Christianity as a whole would fare very poorly were we to paint it with so wide a brush as some of my Sunday-brethren are wont to paint Messianic Judaism—it’s important that we understand the nature of and the variety of positions within this debate.

The first distinction that must be made is that between Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots.  A Messianic, whether he comes from a Jewish or Gentile background, is generally committed to living a Torah-observant lifestyle after the fashion of our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach.  The understanding of what that entails varies from person to person and congregation to congregation.

While there is a great degree of overlap between Messianics and those in the Hebrew Roots, the latter are primarily characterized by an intellectual interest in the insights into Scripture that understanding their distinctive Jewishness opens up.  They may worship with either a Messianic synagogue or a Sunday church—or both—but are not interested in reordering their lifestyle, or at least don’t feel called to do so.  And that’s perfectly fine; we are all saved by our faith in the Messiah of Israel, whether we call Him Yeshua or Jesus, not by our adherence to Torah.  Indeed, most Hebrew Roots Christians are to be commended for their earnest desire to know God through His Scriptures better.

Within the ranks of those who call themselves Messianics and seek to keep the Torah as best they can, there is a great deal of variety.  Many Messianics—in fact, the majority, to the chagrin of some—were born and raised as Gentile Christians.  They may have a Jewish parent or grandparent (and many who do not sadly spend a great deal of effort attempting to find a strain of Jewish blood in their genealogy), but were raised to celebrate Christmas instead of Hanukkah.  Others were born and raised as Jews, whether from a Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox background.

The cultural mix of a congregation has a great influence on the strictness of its halakha, its traditions.  Those with a greater percentage of members who were raised in Jewish tradition typically have a correspondingly higher regard for Jewish tradition, even believing in the concept of the Oral Torah (which we will discuss below).  Some Messianic synagogues are virtually indistinguishable from Orthodox or Reform synagogues in liturgy and practice, save only that they believe in Yeshua the Messiah and read from the B’rit Chadasha (the Renewed Covenant, or New Testament).  On the opposite end of the spectrum are Messianic congregations which are virtually indistinguishable from Sunday churches, save that they meet on Shabbat, observe the Feastdays, and use a little bit of Hebrew in their liturgy and music.

Beth HaMashiach, though originating as the latter kind of congregation, seeks to strike a balance between the two:  Our liturgy, organization, and trappings are decidedly Jewish, but we have deliberately adapted them to reflect our emphasis on the Messiah in Messianic Judaism.  Some would argue that we are “too Jewish,” while others would argue that we go too far in changing honored traditions.  We will trust to our King to forgive all of the errors that we doubtless make on both sides of the equation. http://hebrewroot.com/Articles/Messianic%20Talmud.htm

Quote
Oral Law—There is no single interpretation on the use of Talmud by Messianic congregations. Most Messianic congregations and synagogues can be said to believe that the oral traditions are subservient to the written Torah, and where there is a conflict between Torah and Talmud, the plain interpretation of Torah take precedence.[81][unreliable source?] Some congregations believe that adherence to the Oral Law, as encompassed by the Talmud, is against Messianic beliefs, since Talmud was not written until after the whole of the affirmed canon (begun 70 CE, completed approx 500 CE).[82] A few congregations believe that adherence to the Talmud is outright dangerous.[79][unreliable source?] Other congregations are selective in their applications of Talmudic law.[83][84][unreliable source?][85] Still others encourage a serious observance of the Jewish Halakha.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
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« Reply #76 on: February 29, 2012, 01:13:30 PM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?

I don`t think he did away with the Torah, he fulfilled it and renewed it.As it says in Isaiah : "The lord will exalt the Torah and make it honourable" ... no one looking at the splendour of the Gospel cannot not realise the beauty of the Torah.The Gospel is hidden in the Torah.The Torah was a shaddow of the Gospel even as the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews says in chapter 10 verse 1.The Gospel is the fulfillment of the Torah.The Torah radiates in the splendour of the Gospel.. The Torah is renewed and transcended in the New Covenant.Also as it says in Isaiah :"A torah shall come out of Me and my justice shall be a light to the Gentiles" and "I will make a new covenant" as it says in Jeremiah.

I will leave you with a few verses from the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.

Hebrews 10:15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them

after that time, says the Lord.

I will put my laws in their hearts,

and I will write them on their minds.”b

17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more.”c

18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

Jesus did not made a new religion.Christianity is the continuance of true Judaism, it has and it carries in herself(Christianity) Judaism .. Both the Old and the New.. The New in the Old concealed , the Old in the New revealed.. The Gospel carries in itself the Torah , just like the adult always carries in himself his own childhood.Christianity is and identifies itself with Judaism of the Old.. You will find many similarities between the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Judaism(Talmudic Judaism).
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« Reply #77 on: February 29, 2012, 01:18:58 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh
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« Reply #78 on: February 29, 2012, 02:10:01 PM »

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion?
Depends on how you define religion.
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« Reply #79 on: February 29, 2012, 02:13:26 PM »

Aren't they supposed to at least try to read from the Scriptures with some sort of reverence and decorum? Even Islam puts this whole charade to shame.

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« Reply #80 on: February 29, 2012, 02:24:09 PM »

Trying to be two things at once, makes it hard to succeed at being either.  Sad
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« Reply #81 on: February 29, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

From the comments:
Quote
Y'shua is L-rd!

I'm all for Jewish use of the G-D in order to avoid saying/writing the Name, but this is more than excessive.

Is this usage normal in Messianic congregations?
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« Reply #82 on: February 29, 2012, 03:49:36 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

Arrrrgh, the American accents on the Hebrew ...
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« Reply #83 on: February 29, 2012, 04:15:57 PM »

Yeah. Normally I'm not one to get all up on my not-Hebrew (Greek, Slavonic, etc.)-speaking high horse, but that is sooooo bad. Ouch. It literally hurts to listen to.

Here is a real freaking Shema, from an authentic Jewish tradition (Yemenite). Notice how this Messianic Jewish nonsense doesn't even come close.
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« Reply #84 on: February 29, 2012, 04:20:21 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

Arrrrgh, the American accents on the Hebrew ...

Arrrrgh, Australian accents . . .
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« Reply #85 on: February 29, 2012, 05:52:40 PM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?

"Covenant" and "religion" etymologically are pretty similar (if not synonymous) in meaning.

God's law is more than the Torah.
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« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2012, 12:23:40 AM »

Mathetes, you do understand that St. James was writing BEFORE the Rabbis declared believers in the Messiah to be anathema, right?  You see, with virtually all religions spawned from others, there is a period where the leaders of the old religion are not sure what to do with those advocating new doctrines.  Eventually, the new doctrines either become standard, or alternatively the leaders of the old religion declare that the advocates of those new doctrines are heretics and are not part of their religion.  That is what the Rabbis did to Christians.  They declared that we are not Jews, that a Jew cannot believe in Jesus as the Messiah, let alone Christ as God. 

Even the Karaites only rule is that you can't believe that Jesus Christ is Messiah, nor that the Messiah is God.  They all uphold the idea that the Messiah will not be resurrected, as well, nor will come a second time.  Of course, with the number of Chabad Jews who believe that their Rebbe will come back to life, and is the Messiah, it may indeed be - in another few decades - that, at least, Chabad does not claim that particular objection to Christianity (and should that time come, they will almost certainly experience the same condemnation that the original Hassidim did, a few centuries ago).  Anyways, my point is, the Rabbis declared Christians heretics.  They believe that the Trinity is not only an incorrect view, but polytheism. 

Now, had the Rabbis not persecuted Christians in the first century, and tried to use the force of Roman law to wipe us out, it could be the case that Christians are still considered a sect of Judaism; yet, that is not what happened.

Messianic-Judaism is completely a-historical, and you just provided one more reason to think so.
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« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2012, 08:10:46 AM »

Here is a real freaking Shema, from an authentic Jewish tradition (Yemenite). Notice how this Messianic Jewish nonsense doesn't even come close.

God bless you! Yemenite pronunciation is the only one that should be permitted to be heard in public.
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« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2012, 12:26:48 PM »

Hahaha. Er...not exactly that, but I just wanted to point out the difference between the "Messianic Jewish" LARPing and the real thing. There are also other authentic traditions (that likewise don't sound anything like what's in the Messianic video); I just happened to know the Yemenite video already, so it was easy to find and post.
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« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2012, 12:37:56 PM »

I would like to hera a MJ explain the book of Galatians. Im not being facetious either. I would be interested on hearing/reading it.

However I do think Mathetes, and other here that are MJ's have alot of answering to do between the mutitude of arguments that have been presented recently Smiley

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