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Author Topic: Messianic Judaism  (Read 9218 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 08, 2012, 05:08:39 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 05:49:09 PM »

I do not like it. Such Judaizing groups are heretical. Read the outcome of the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts. We are not obliged by the Mosaic law but to a certain restricted degree (prohibitions against eating blood, fornication, and idolatry). It made sense in those early days to have such debates, since the earliest believers were either Jews themselves or clearly connected what would come to be known as Christianity with Judaism, but the modern groups claiming Jewish identity are about 1950 years late to the party. You will notice that the church with perhaps the most obvious outward signs of connection to Judaism in a ritual sense, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, does not hold the contradictory beliefs of "Messianic Jews", such as the man referenced in the Wikipedia article who quit the military rather than be adorned with a symbol of the cross, as he held such to be contradictory to his beliefs!

Note to Messianic Jews out there: This is Christianity, and it means something much more than a hodgepodge of Evangelicalisms and Hebraisms. When you die, God will not ask you how you pronounced "Chanukkah", so stop the pretending and posing and pick a street. We already did at the council of Jerusalem in AD 50.
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 05:54:53 PM »

I'm no expert, but I find it to be quite silly.

It seems nothing more than a rehash of certain Protestant ideology, combined with speculative/revisionist history, and a bunch of nifty "Judaic" jargon terms and accoutrement.

People frequently make stuff up as they go along, but to me, the arrogance related to their "creative license" is over-the-top.
It's one thing for a [insert Evangelical denomination or non-denom] to say: "Well, I read the Bible, and this is what the passage means [to me]"  It's quite another to say: "Well, I read the Bible, and this is how services should be performed and all of the early followers [Gospel writers, disciples of Christ] were wrong, but we're right. We've rediscovered [by making it up], nearly 2,000 years later, what the faith should've been"

Some of the assumptions associated with Messianic Judaism, e.g. the importance of exclusively using the 10-12 Hebrew words they know, are laughable. 

I find it difficult to understand how otherwise intelligent people could fall for this.  I do understand the desire to return to a form of the faith that is older than the PowerPoint/praise music dross that's out there, but there are better options.  Additionally, there is a pretty healthy little industry created for similar types of Judaizing.  Perhaps this helps them on their journey.

Ortho_Cat, opinions from both sides? 
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »

Note to Messianic Jews out there: This is Christianity, and it means something much more than a hodgepodge of Evangelicalisms and Hebraisms. When you die, God will not ask you how you pronounced "Chanukkah", so stop the pretending and posing and pick a street. We already did at the council of Jerusalem in AD 50.

Quote for awesomeness.
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 06:05:03 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I have no problems with Jews being blessed and coming into the Church.  I have no problems with Jews continuing to express their culture and ethnic identity as Jews, even converted to Christians. However, when Jews for Jesus and Messianic Jews and Rabbis becoming Preachers in Protestant denominations try to make Christianity Jewish, they make a mistake. 


I am a Rastafari, and I continue to express my culture and my identity even as an Orthodox Christian.  However, recent accusations of myself or any others trying to change the Church are ridiculously unfounded.  The Church changes us.  So if Jews would like to come into the Church, they are perfectly welcome, in fact I pray earnestly that the ENTIRE WORLD come into the Church and see the Light.  However, if Jews think that somehow because the Apostles or Jesus Christ were 1st century Jews equates to Christianity having to readjust to contemporary definitions of Jewish culture, that is just play silly.  Jews can be Jews and Christians, but they can't expect Christians to somehow become Jews Wink



stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 09:33:16 PM »

It is niche marketing.  The target audience is Jews who convert to Protestantism.  The secondary market is Protestants who think lining their evangelicalism with some Jewish phrases and customs will get them closer to God.

I did find the link in the OP interesting.  Especially the early Jews-for-Jesus type of groups in the 1800's.
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 10:19:33 PM »

I went to a Messianic Jewish service once.  (I was young and curious.)

I was asked if I was Jewish and the person seemed very disappointed when I said no.  The first part was a lot of singing, but with a Jewish feel.  They had some dancing off to the side. The dancing was circle dancing, sort of like kolo dancing.  After the singing there was a very long sermon.  And that was it.  
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 02:36:59 AM »

when i said I wanted opinion from both sides, i was referring to Orthodox and non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 11:39:19 AM »

when i said I wanted opinion from both sides, i was referring to Orthodox and non-Orthodox.

I don't really have much to offer…

I work with an Orthodox Jew that would claim they are no longer Jewish though by ethnicity they obviously are. (? I’ll leave that between them ?) I have been taught to stand arm in arm with anyone that proclaims Jesus Christ Lord Son of God, believes in the Trinity, and the Apostle Creed (I understand they do) as brethren. However, even prior to this post I have heard Christians make claim they are not ‘really Christians'. I honestly do not know enough about their theology to comment. It’s best to simply see myself as I am; a repenting fool that is best served to focus on my own issues of faith as opposed to defining someone else’s.
Objectively without agreement, or disagreement, I guess I would simply call them a Christian sect that is proud of, and wants to maintain, the culture and traditions of their heritage.
Why the need to form their own sect of Christianity as opposed to maintaining their proud heritage in a sect already existing? Man, I still have not completely figured out why Martin Luther didn't just become Orthodox!?   Wink

Peace & Grace
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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 12:06:46 PM »

We have one or two on this forum actually.

IMHO it is simply an attempt for Protestants to have some historical roots to what they believe.

I must say, reading/listening to their explanation of the Council of Jerusalem is interesting to say the least.

PP
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 02:16:56 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 03:36:25 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP
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« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 07:16:38 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?
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« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 07:18:42 PM »

Restorationism +Generic Charismatic stuff + Hellenophobia + Misunderstandings of Rabbinic Judaism, IMO.
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« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 08:50:24 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?
Well, as far as I know, the talmud really is why Orthodox Judaism is still around.

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Restorationism +Generic Charismatic stuff + Hellenophobia + Misunderstandings of Rabbinic Judaism, IMO.
Sounds like a plan my man  laugh laugh

PP
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 09:52:49 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 09:53:48 PM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 10:00:23 PM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 10:03:16 PM »

We have one or two on this forum actually.

IMHO it is simply an attempt for Protestants to have some historical roots to what they believe.

I must say, reading/listening to their explanation of the Council of Jerusalem is interesting to say the least.

PP

First robber synod in history!
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 10:21:11 PM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.

you're not a Christian anymore? MJ's believe in modalism?
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 11:54:29 PM »

Talk about pithiness:

Restorationism +Generic Charismatic stuff + Hellenophobia + Misunderstandings of Rabbinic Judaism

9 words to describe the religion.

oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

8 words to explain its justification.

Right on, from my eyes.
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2012, 12:26:53 AM »

We have one or two on this forum actually.

IMHO it is simply an attempt for Protestants to have some historical roots to what they believe.

I must say, reading/listening to their explanation of the Council of Jerusalem is interesting to say the least.

PP

This is what i was thinking.  Its evangelicals trying to link themselves to some sort of tradition.
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2012, 12:28:45 AM »

Not sure what to think about them.. I don`t know the doctrines they follow..
Very confusing beliefs actually. For instance, they hold to a version of sola scriptura yet also hold to the Talmud, which the Orthodox Jews also use, which makes things very interesting.

Where's Yeshuaisiam?m sure he can explain....

PP

Isn't the Talmud basically the so-called oral Torah "crystallised" in writing?

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

You get an A+ in illogical logic.
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 12:33:01 AM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.

you're not a Christian anymore? MJ's believe in modalism?

My apologies.  I was referring to several years ago when I was still a Protestant, and what reading Messianic Jewish writings - at that time - had done to me.  Anyways, some MJ's do in fact believe in modalism.  While the most talked about ones are off-shoots of the Evangelicals, some have either arisen from another point of origin, or went way off the rails from Evangelicalism.  MJ's range from Evangelicals with some cultural baggage, to, essentially, resurrecting every single Ebionite heresy.
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 01:19:03 AM »

Let's not forget the LARP points people earn for doing their r&b clap-a-long worship while wearing tallits, in front of a menorah.

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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2012, 01:21:23 AM »

Oh, and, for what it's worth, reading Messianic Jewish writings is what led me to believe in things like Modalism, and eventually stop being a Christian.

you're not a Christian anymore? MJ's believe in modalism?

My apologies.  I was referring to several years ago when I was still a Protestant, and what reading Messianic Jewish writings - at that time - had done to me.  Anyways, some MJ's do in fact believe in modalism.  While the most talked about ones are off-shoots of the Evangelicals, some have either arisen from another point of origin, or went way off the rails from Evangelicalism.  MJ's range from Evangelicals with some cultural baggage, to, essentially, resurrecting every single Ebionite heresy.

ah ok, my apologies as well.
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2012, 05:25:04 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How could I forget these folks

Larry and Tiz Huch, the super Jewish Jesus crew Wink

Quote
Discover the Jewish Roots of Your Christian Faith

Pastors Larry and Tiz have brought many powerful and life-changing revelations to the body of Christ including Breaking Family Curses and the 7 Places Jesus Shed His Blood. But perhaps the most extraordinary and important revelation is the teaching on the Jewish Roots of the Christianity. They absolutely believe this revelation is an essential part of what will usher in the return of our Messiah. Over the past decade Pastor Larry has become a recognized authority and acclaimed writer on this subject. His latest book, "Unveiling Ancient Biblical Secrets" and the best-selling book "The Torah Blessing" go into great depth and detail in explaining how and why the church needs to return to the ancient Hebrew understanding of the scriptures. It's a revelation that will bring the Bible to life as never before…and it's a valuable key to releasing new blessing and miracles into your life, ministry, family and finances.

Pastor Larry began this incredible journey about fifteen years ago, outside the ruins of an ancient synagogue in Capernaum.  God spoke to him in an appointed moment of time that He would teach him to re-read the Bible through the eyes of a Jewish Jesus.  It’s a journey that has led you here today and one that you may feel God is calling you to make personally.  Perhaps you’ve never really thought about the Bible as a Jewish book written by Jewish men.  Most people don’t even think about the fact that their Savior is Jewish, that He (Jesus) was born and raised in a Jewish home and was from the lineage of King David.   He went to the Temple, attended synagogue, studied Torah, celebrated Shabbat and all the Bible Holidays.  He was a Jewish Rabbi in Israel and lived what we consider an orthodox life; just as all of the Apostles, including Paul, Peter, John and James.

There is no where in scripture that says they forsook their Jewish roots; rather they all continued to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just as their forefathers only with the added revelation that Jesus (Yeshua) was and is the Messiah; fulfilling the prophecies and promises God made through the prophets like Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Isaiah.  Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that He did not come to abolish the Torah but rather to show you and I (the world) how to live it…not in a legalistic way but with love, joy and faith.  In these last days believers around the world are realizing what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11, that we are meant to be grafted in to the Jewish people and their salvation history.  And as you begin to discover and develop this revelation for yourself, a whole new understanding of God’s Word, promises and purpose for your life will emerge. So start your journey with us today, return to the rich heritage of your faith and experience a whole new dimension of spiritual purpose and destiny.

We encourage you to watch Pastors Larry and Tiz live webcast every Sunday at 10:00 am CST and Wednesday at 7:00pm. You can also stay up-to-date with our latest teachings by watching our weekly television broadcast, New Beginnings, on the Daystar Television Network or right here at larryhuchministires.com.

 
Scriptures to Study:

Acts 3:21, Acts 15, Acts 21:26, Romans 9-11, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:1-6, Ephesians 2:11-22, Genesis 12:1-3, Isaiah 51:1, 2, Jeremiah 6:16, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 37, Amos 9:11-15
http://www.larryhuchministries.com/Jewish_Roots/


stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 05:48:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How could I forget these folks

Larry and Tiz Huch, the super Jewish Jesus crew Wink

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Discover the Jewish Roots of Your Christian Faith

Pastors Larry and Tiz have brought many powerful and life-changing revelations to the body of Christ including Breaking Family Curses and the 7 Places Jesus Shed His Blood. But perhaps the most extraordinary and important revelation is the teaching on the Jewish Roots of the Christianity. They absolutely believe this revelation is an essential part of what will usher in the return of our Messiah. Over the past decade Pastor Larry has become a recognized authority and acclaimed writer on this subject. His latest book, "Unveiling Ancient Biblical Secrets" and the best-selling book "The Torah Blessing" go into great depth and detail in explaining how and why the church needs to return to the ancient Hebrew understanding of the scriptures. It's a revelation that will bring the Bible to life as never before…and it's a valuable key to releasing new blessing and miracles into your life, ministry, family and finances.

Pastor Larry began this incredible journey about fifteen years ago, outside the ruins of an ancient synagogue in Capernaum.  God spoke to him in an appointed moment of time that He would teach him to re-read the Bible through the eyes of a Jewish Jesus.  It’s a journey that has led you here today and one that you may feel God is calling you to make personally.  Perhaps you’ve never really thought about the Bible as a Jewish book written by Jewish men.  Most people don’t even think about the fact that their Savior is Jewish, that He (Jesus) was born and raised in a Jewish home and was from the lineage of King David.   He went to the Temple, attended synagogue, studied Torah, celebrated Shabbat and all the Bible Holidays.  He was a Jewish Rabbi in Israel and lived what we consider an orthodox life; just as all of the Apostles, including Paul, Peter, John and James.

There is no where in scripture that says they forsook their Jewish roots; rather they all continued to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob just as their forefathers only with the added revelation that Jesus (Yeshua) was and is the Messiah; fulfilling the prophecies and promises God made through the prophets like Jeremiah, Zechariah, Daniel and Isaiah.  Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 that He did not come to abolish the Torah but rather to show you and I (the world) how to live it…not in a legalistic way but with love, joy and faith.  In these last days believers around the world are realizing what the Apostle Paul taught in Romans 11, that we are meant to be grafted in to the Jewish people and their salvation history.  And as you begin to discover and develop this revelation for yourself, a whole new understanding of God’s Word, promises and purpose for your life will emerge. So start your journey with us today, return to the rich heritage of your faith and experience a whole new dimension of spiritual purpose and destiny.

We encourage you to watch Pastors Larry and Tiz live webcast every Sunday at 10:00 am CST and Wednesday at 7:00pm. You can also stay up-to-date with our latest teachings by watching our weekly television broadcast, New Beginnings, on the Daystar Television Network or right here at larryhuchministires.com.

 
Scriptures to Study:

Acts 3:21, Acts 15, Acts 21:26, Romans 9-11, Galatians 3:29, Ephesians 3:1-6, Ephesians 2:11-22, Genesis 12:1-3, Isaiah 51:1, 2, Jeremiah 6:16, Jeremiah 16:19, Jeremiah 31:31-33, Ezekiel 37, Amos 9:11-15
http://www.larryhuchministries.com/Jewish_Roots/


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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2012, 08:18:27 AM »

I do wonder if real Jews giggle when seeing/reading/watching MJ stuff.

I ask because I giggle when I see/hear Emergent Churchie folks crossing themselves or using pseudo-liturgical stuff, having no idea what they're doing.

PP
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 11:16:34 AM »

I do wonder if real Jews giggle when seeing/reading/watching MJ stuff.

I'm sure it's either that, or they cringe.
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 12:14:51 PM »

Probably both. I have found many of them just want protestants to stop and leave them and their culture alone. Which I second, actually, even if I am not Jewish.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 01:44:30 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How could I forget these folks

Larry and Tiz Huch, the super Jewish Jesus crew Wink


They're on TV all the time. Sometimes I watch that stuff, because I think I have to be aware of what's out there. Whew.   Undecided
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« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2012, 06:57:31 PM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?
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« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2012, 07:10:34 PM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?

Only if it conforms with Apostolic Tradition.
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« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2012, 07:13:48 PM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?

I don't think the Jews of the Old Testament period were wrong to rely on their oral tradition. I mean, our Lord frequented the synagogues, the very existence of which was not mandated by the Jewish scriptures.
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« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2012, 12:26:16 AM »

So, in Messianic logic: oral Jewish tradition, okay -- oral Christian tradition, bad?

Conversely, does Orthodoxy take much stock in oral Jewish tradition?

I don't think the Jews of the Old Testament period were wrong to rely on their oral tradition. I mean, our Lord frequented the synagogues, the very existence of which was not mandated by the Jewish scriptures.

Though, it is important to keep in mind that there are two kinds of traditions, those of men and those of God.  Certainly, our Lord spoke out against some of their traditions, those that they created to circumvent the Law of God. 

Also, at times, when I've read commentaries of the great Jewish Rabbis and other Jewish extra-biblical works, it seems that a lot of it (especially that which originates in the time before and within a couple of centuries after Christ, as well as a lot of Hassidic stuff) seems to parallel the ideas of the Church Fathers.  Some of, also, has helped me to understand things that I've read in the Fathers, because it says essentially the same, but in another fashion.  Of course, much of it is also quite opposed to the teaching of the Church and the Fathers.
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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2012, 02:39:46 AM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead. I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.

Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah. The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined. Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

The apostles avoided the word "Christian"; inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it. And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2012, 03:00:50 AM »

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And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.

Obviously the book of Acts is not part of MJ scripture. Does the word Judaizer mean anything to you, mathetes?
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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2012, 03:04:32 AM »

I do wonder if real Jews giggle when seeing/reading/watching MJ stuff.

I ask because I giggle when I see/hear Emergent Churchie folks crossing themselves or using pseudo-liturgical stuff, having no idea what they're doing.

PP

I pray for them that they may come to the Truth.
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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2012, 03:09:05 AM »

I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah. The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.

The apostles avoided the word "Christian"; inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it. And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.[/size]

Right... So the Messianics began teaching some 1,930 plus years after Christ's death.  Most don't buy it. Of course Messianic teachings tend to use vague and utterly worthless terms such as "original Christianity."

It's kind of a neat idea I suppose, but I get a tad offended that Messianics (and some other Protestants) imply that the apostles and their followers were completely inept.  Simultaneously, that the Word of God [Most Messianics do read the New Testament right?] became man [Most Messianics believe this, right?], was killed, and the faith was hidden for almost 2,000 years before folk were able to "bring it back."  

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Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

For the most part, we wouldn't disagree with this.  We view (and have viewed since the Church was founded*ETA: by Jews) that "Christianity" is the genuine continuation of Judaism.  

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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2012, 03:12:17 AM »

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And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.

Obviously the book of Acts is not part of MJ scripture. Does the word Judaizer mean anything to you, mathetes?

Precisely.  But of course they discovered the real meaning of it in the late 1960s.

I pray for them that they may come to the Truth.

Indeed.  At least it seems as if they are searching for it.
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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2012, 03:19:53 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.
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« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2012, 03:32:50 AM »

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And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.

Obviously the book of Acts is not part of MJ scripture. Does the word Judaizer mean anything to you, mathetes?
The book of Acts is a favorite among Messianics. While I can't speak for everyone in Messianic Judaism, I can say that the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America doesn't Judaize.

Speaking of Acts, are you aware that the apostle Paul remained a Pharisee? Appearing before the Sanhedrin, he said, "Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee ..." (Acts 23:6 NKJV). This was after the apostles and he had this conversation:

"(17)And when we had come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. (18) On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. (19) When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. (20) And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, 'You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law; (21) but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. (22) What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come. (23) Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow. (24) Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law. (25) But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality'" (Acts 21:15-23 NKJV).

Do you see how the apostle Paul continued to keep the Torah and how the apostles never forced the Jews to become Gentiles or the Gentiles to become Jews? That's the apostolic way of doing things.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 03:49:55 AM by mathetes » Logged

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« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2012, 03:48:48 AM »

I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah. The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.

The apostles avoided the word "Christian"; inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it. And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously. The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.[/size]

Right... So the Messianics began teaching some 1,930 plus years after Christ's death.  Most don't buy it. Of course Messianic teachings tend to use vague and utterly worthless terms such as "original Christianity."

It's kind of a neat idea I suppose, but I get a tad offended that Messianics (and some other Protestants) imply that the apostles and their followers were completely inept.  Simultaneously, that the Word of God [Most Messianics do read the New Testament right?] became man [Most Messianics believe this, right?], was killed, and the faith was hidden for almost 2,000 years before folk were able to "bring it back."  

Quote
Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

For the most part, we wouldn't disagree with this.  We view (and have viewed since the Church was founded*ETA: by Jews) that "Christianity" is the genuine continuation of Judaism.

It's refreshing to hear you say Christianity is the genuine continuation of Judaism. That's a step in the right direction, although it overlooks the stumblingblock that results from saying the Jewish Messiah started a new religion.

I'm unaware that any rabbis in the MJAA ever said or implied that the apostles were inept. You're wrong, I believe, to say Messianics think the doctrine of the Messiah's incarnation, death, burial, and resurrection lay dormant until Messianics brought it back. What lay dormant was the Scriptural tolerance the apostles practiced. They let Jews stay Jews, and Gentiles stay Gentiles. They also didn't pressure them to follow the same diet and observe the same holydays (Romans 14).
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« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2012, 03:54:26 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?
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« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2012, 04:01:15 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)
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« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2012, 04:05:00 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?

Because you are not Apostles? Huh Roll Eyes
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« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2012, 04:12:05 AM »

Mathetes, here's the problem. Yes, the apostles permitted the Jewish Christians to retain their Jewish practices. They did not, however, hold Live Action Role Play seminars for Gentiles so that they could learn how to pretend to be Jews. Certain strains of "Messianic Judaism" bring in Gentiles and then have them LARP as Jews. This is, of course, absurd, blasphemous and hilarious at the same time.

Second point:

"Jews" ain't a single entity. Even back in the First Century A.D. and earlier. Christianity and Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism are the only two sects of Judaism to survive the Roman actions in the 1st Century, but they are not the same. Nor were they in agreement. Nor were they expected to be.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism (what you call Judaism) evolved a lot since the 1st Century A.D. The role of the synagogue changed, they formed a new philosophy, had many scholarly developments (such as the great Maimonides). Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism is not closer to the 1st Century Judaic milieu than Christianity is.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

I mean, if we're really all about "getting back to our roots" despite belief and praxis, why don't both groups start worshipping Ba'al, storm god of the Canaanites?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 04:14:35 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2012, 04:27:21 AM »

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

So true, and well stated!

I would say that if they are so interested in the practices of the first-century church, maybe these "Messianic Jews" ought to learn Syriac and celebrate according to the Liturgy of St. James.

This is Christianity

This is not

It is your choice. We made ours already in AD 50. Judaizing is not accepted.


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« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2012, 04:50:24 AM »

Unbelievable.  laugh
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« Reply #50 on: February 24, 2012, 09:00:08 AM »


Cannot un-see ...
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« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2012, 10:20:14 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?
Times change. Back then, the term "Christian" was applied to us from outside. Now we apply the term to ourselves.
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« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2012, 02:16:40 PM »


Yeah, I think klezmer is supposed to be in tune, at least.
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« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2012, 06:09:02 PM »

At :53 it gets soooo good though. Might be my next ringtone.
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« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2012, 06:09:02 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.
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« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2012, 10:11:09 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)

In the passage I quoted, the apostle James and the elders with him told Paul, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed ..." (Acts 21:20 NKJV). Thus, Jews who trusted in the Messiah were considered Jews who believe. This is evidence that the phrase "Jews for Jesus" is biblical and apostolic and that Jewish followers of the Messiah can remain Jews.
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« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2012, 10:22:38 AM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?

Because you are not Apostles? Huh Roll Eyes

Wow! You don't leave much room for discussion, do you?
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« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2012, 10:56:19 AM »

Mathetes, here's the problem. Yes, the apostles permitted the Jewish Christians to retain their Jewish practices. They did not, however, hold Live Action Role Play seminars for Gentiles so that they could learn how to pretend to be Jews. Certain strains of "Messianic Judaism" bring in Gentiles and then have them LARP as Jews. This is, of course, absurd, blasphemous and hilarious at the same time.

To respond, I need to know more about these role-playing seminars, especially since I don't recall any at my MJAA-affiliated synagogue. I don't see why role-playing is necessarily blasphemous (I concede, though, that it can get humorous at times). My secular work over the years entailed a lot of interviewing, and yes, my coworkers and I had to do some role-playing as part of our training. Role-playing is sometimes helpful for people who counsel or who witness for the Lord.

Second point:

"Jews" ain't a single entity. Even back in the First Century A.D. and earlier. Christianity and Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism are the only two sects of Judaism to survive the Roman actions in the 1st Century, but they are not the same. Nor were they in agreement. Nor were they expected to be.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism (what you call Judaism) evolved a lot since the 1st Century A.D. The role of the synagogue changed, they formed a new philosophy, had many scholarly developments (such as the great Maimonides). Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism is not closer to the 1st Century Judaic milieu than Christianity is.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

It's evident that you've looked into Judaism, and I appreciate your study. Yes, leaders who rejected Yeshua did mishna'ize or lead many followers astray. What the MJAA strives for is Biblical Judaism; consequently, certain Messianic customs such as biblical kosher versus rabbinic kosher differ from those found among people who identify themselves as Orthodox Jews. You're right about the disagreements over dates and calendars (those are problems that Messianics as well as EOs have had to deal with).

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

Consistent with apostolic practice, I've never urged you or anyone else on these forums to adopt Messianic Judaism. The MJAA treats Messianic Judaism as a special calling. Our synagogues include people who either come from a Jewish background or have a desire to minister to the Jewish people. Our practice of encouraging people to follow God's leading for their lives distinguishes us from Judaizers.

I mean, if we're really all about "getting back to our roots" despite belief and praxis, why don't both groups start worshipping Ba'al, storm god of the Canaanites?

You had a good post going. Too bad you messed it up with this foolish close.
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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2012, 11:10:29 AM »

Why would we Christians, who are the outgrowth of the Christian Jewish sect which broke with the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jewish sect, want to imitate the practices of the sect we decided we didn't want to be? It makes absolutely no sense.

So true, and well stated!

I would say that if they are so interested in the practices of the first-century church, maybe these "Messianic Jews" ought to learn Syriac and celebrate according to the Liturgy of St. James.

This is Christianity

This is not

It is your choice. We made ours already in AD 50. Judaizing is not accepted.

It's confusing why you object to the video from the Beth Messiah synagogue. Did you recognize that the synagogue's name means "House of Christ"?

Did you notice that the song, "It Is Good" by Paul Wilbur, is drawn from Psalm 92 (Psalm 91 LXX)? According to The Orthodox Study Bible, this psalm concerns the Sabbath day and is applicable today, especially as regards the rest that the Messiah has provided for the souls of all who trust in Him. The OSB adds that verses 2, 3, and 5 of the psalm are sung as the First Antiphon on a regular Sunday. Again, I can't help wondering what your beef is.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2012, 11:16:53 AM by mathetes » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2012, 11:15:51 AM »


That song never struck me as klezmer. Anyway, God accepts joyful noises and no doubt considers the heart more important than any problems with intonation.
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« Reply #60 on: February 28, 2012, 11:27:28 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)

In the passage I quoted, the apostle James and the elders with him told Paul, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed ..." (Acts 21:20 NKJV). Thus, Jews who trusted in the Messiah were considered Jews who believe. This is evidence that the phrase "Jews for Jesus" is biblical and apostolic and that Jewish followers of the Messiah can remain Jews.
So they can recite the Amida, with its curse against the Christians, three times every day?
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« Reply #61 on: February 28, 2012, 11:37:31 AM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).
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« Reply #62 on: February 28, 2012, 11:40:53 AM »

The same Apostle tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians: "To the Jews, I became a Jew, that I might win the Jews".

The passage you quote (for some reason; I don't really understand why, as it doesn't help your case that you may remain a Jew while also being a Christian...unless we have the most honored Apostle Paul posting among us today!), if you read it closely, is Paul's defense against those who would call him out for a supposed abandonment of the law that he neither preached nor personally practiced. As the Apostles were Jews, as Christ Himself was a Jew, they remained as Jews, as this was in a period when Christianity itself was, in essence, a heretical sect within Judaism.

It is no longer considered as such, so no, you may not be a Jew and a Christian at the same time. They are, sadly, in irresolvable conflict given the Jews' rejection of the Messiah Jesus as He truly is (see the Nicene Creed for more details Smiley)

In the passage I quoted, the apostle James and the elders with him told Paul, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed ..." (Acts 21:20 NKJV). Thus, Jews who trusted in the Messiah were considered Jews who believe. This is evidence that the phrase "Jews for Jesus" is biblical and apostolic and that Jewish followers of the Messiah can remain Jews.
So they can recite the Amida, with its curse against the Christians, three times every day?

In my synagogue, an abridged Amidah for Sabbath and Festivals is recited. Of course, we don't recite anything that curses the Messiah or His followers.
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« Reply #63 on: February 28, 2012, 11:54:09 AM »

Quote
That song never struck me as klezmer. Anyway, God accepts joyful noises and no doubt considers the heart more important than any problems with intonation.

I wonder what He thinks of this then  Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8
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« Reply #64 on: February 28, 2012, 12:12:41 PM »

Quote
That song never struck me as klezmer. Anyway, God accepts joyful noises and no doubt considers the heart more important than any problems with intonation.

I wonder what He thinks of this then  Tongue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-NOZU2iPA8

Not much.  Grin
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« Reply #65 on: February 28, 2012, 12:31:01 PM »

Seeing as how the name "Christian" was first applied to the followers of Christ, rather than being self-applied (see Acts 11), it doesn't really mean much to point out that the Apostles didn't use the term.

If it doesn't mean much that the apostles avoided the term "Christian," why does it mean anything when Messianics avoid it too?

Because you are not Apostles? Huh Roll Eyes

Wow! You don't leave much room for discussion, do you?

Not when something is so cut and dry, I don't.
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« Reply #66 on: February 28, 2012, 03:47:10 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.
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« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2012, 04:14:15 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred
Roll Eyes
Quote
in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).
Χριστός>Χριστιανισμός
No Christ without Christianity.
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« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2012, 06:42:04 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.
Would you be willing to share some of those arguments here?
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« Reply #69 on: February 29, 2012, 12:08:44 AM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.

Please share a link to that forum and your thread since I'm curious what was said and whether any Messianic groups were identified. I have one problem with your assertion, and it's the word "all" (I may also have a problem with your term "branches"). I'd counter that not all Messianic denominations have embraced Talmudic laws and practices. So far as I know, the Messianic Jewish of Alliance of America, which I belong to, hasn't done that. We strive for a Biblical Judaism.

Anyone curious about the MJAA may read more at its web site, MJAA.org, or at IAMCS.org, the web site of the International Association of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues, which is responsible for ordaining the denomination's rabbis and congregations.
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« Reply #70 on: February 29, 2012, 12:27:10 AM »


There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.
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« Reply #71 on: February 29, 2012, 01:06:56 AM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."
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« Reply #72 on: February 29, 2012, 01:34:26 AM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Atta boy, William!  laugh
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« Reply #73 on: February 29, 2012, 11:30:41 AM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 11:33:00 AM by mathetes » Logged

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« Reply #74 on: February 29, 2012, 11:58:31 AM »



Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?
Ok, so if Christians are supposed to be under the law, then explain the following:

Quote
having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross
Colossians 2:14
Quote
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away
2 Corinthians 3:14
Quote
Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second
Hebrews 10:9
and
Quote
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith
Galatians 6:14.


Christ came to fulfill the law, not enforce it.


PP
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« Reply #75 on: February 29, 2012, 12:44:17 PM »

Ok so I want to see opinions from both sides here, what do you think of this group and their beliefs? I've heard it is growing. What do you think is the primary reason behind the formation of such a group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

"Messianic Judaism is a syncretic religious movement that arose in the 1960s and 70s. It blends evangelical Christian theology with elements of Jewish terminology and ritual."

As part of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I like Messianic Judaism and view its growth in the '60s and '70s as a resurrection from the dead.

Zombies don't count as resurrection.
I don't like the Wikipedia article you've linked, because it has some questionable, unverified statements, which are evident from the calls for more documentation.
LOL.


Some Messianic Jews say Messianic Judaism isn't Christian. I don't object to the term "Christian" as long as it's used as originally intended--to identify a servant or follower of the Jewish Messiah.

You mean the Talmud's?
The term's meaning became distorted when the non-biblical word "Christianity" was coined.
Acts 11:26.  Need anymore be said?

Your Protestant objections to the word "Christianity" are answered by the apostolic words of Patriarch St. Ignatius of Antioch, who knew the Christ and the Apostles, and who was entrusted by the Apostles with the Church:If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death— whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.  Let us not, therefore, be insensible to His kindness. For were He to reward us according to our works, we should cease to be. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live according to the principles of Christianity. For whosoever is called by any other name besides this, is not of God. Lay aside, therefore, the evil, the old, the sour leaven, and be changed into the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour you shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believes might be gathered together to God." Epistles to the Magnesians, c. 105

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.
Nor did He. But the rabbis did.
The apostles avoided the word "Christian";

LOL.  So you admit that the word dates from the days of the Apostles, not after some undefined "Great Apostacy."

The Apostle of the Circumcized didn't avoid it:" if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name"  I Peter 4:16

inasmuch as they never addressed one another with it.
St. Peter, under the inspiration of the Spirit, says otherwise.

And they never claimed that it was impossible to be a Jew and a Christian simultaneously

"No one can serve two masters." "Do not put new wine into old wineskins." "Beware the leaven of the Pharisees."

The people in the MJAA have returned to the apostles' practice.
No.  I would say that they just practice the typical Protestant Apostolic LARPing, but since Protestant "apostolic practice" in far as it contradicts Orthodox Catholic practice, has no basis in fact, I don't know if it really qualifies as LARPing.  More like fantasy role playing, a sort of theological "Dungeons and Dragons", long on apostolic pastiche, short on actual Apostolic practice.

Ialmisry, let me limit my response to things I've not stated elsewhere.

My MJAA-affiliated synagogue doesn't embrace the Talmud; in fact, I don't know of a MJAA synagogue that does. We strive for Biblical Judaism.

Messianics aren't a bunch of zombies. Their resurrection from the dead is what the apostle Paul described as "life from the dead" (Romans 11:15).

Ignatius of Antioch erred in saying Christianity is the name by which we must be saved. St. Peter made it clear that this crucial name is Jesus Christ: "Let it be known to you all, and to the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands before you whole. This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders which has become the chief cornerstone.' Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12 NKJV).

I made a topic on another forum about this.All Messianic branches have embraced practices from the Talmudic law more or less even if they are willing to admit it or not.They all said i was wrong and that i should prove it and ended up biting their tongues and admitting it.
Would you be willing to share some of those arguments here?

I'll try Smiley

Quote
What are some common Messianic Jewish practices?

(Practices vary among congregations.)

*

Messianic Jews observe traditional Jewish holidays such as Purim and Chanukah, the ninth of Av and the Ten Days of Awe.

*

Messianic Jews observe the biblical feasts such as the Feasts of Trumpets, Tabernacles and Passover.

*

Messianic Jews worship on the biblical sabbath, i.e., Friday evening till Saturday.

*

Messianic Jews cant the Sh'ma, the kiddush and motzi, the Aaronic benediction, Etz Chaim, and many other parts of traditional Jewish liturgy.

* Messianic Jews say kaddish for those who have passed on.

* Messianic Jews cant the Torah portion in Hebrew at worship services.

* Messianic Jews bar mitzvah their sons and bat mitzvah their daughters.

*

Messianic preaching is mainly from the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), although references to the B'rit Chadasha (New Covenant) are not unusual.

*

Messianic Judaism emphasizes the special relationship between G-d and the Jewish people.

*

Messianic Judaism emphasizes Jewish traditions that do not conflict with the Bible. http://www.messianicjews.info/general/faq.html

Quote
It seems clear that Yeshua not only worshipped through the liturgy but also quoted it in the course of His teaching! Of course, He did warn of possible excesses and meaningless repetitions, but that had more to do with the heart attitude in worship than the content itself. When one’s heart is in tune with the Spirit of G-d, the liturgical expression can be a beautiful form indeed. Not surprisingly, we find the early Jewish believers expressing their worship of G-d in similar forms. We are told that they met “day by day in the Temple” (Acts 2:42-47), again implying active involvement in the traditional worship that they were accustomed to. In a fascinating note, it is even recorded that they were continually devoted…”to prayer.” The original language actually says “the prayers”, implying that it was more than just an unstructured prayer meeting, but they still incorporated elements of “the prayers” of their traditional Jewish liturgy. They, like us, would not agree with all the theology of the traditional Siddur, but there is much we can agree with and incorporate in our Messianic faith.

The traditional liturgy can be a beautiful vehicle for uniting us together in a spirit of praise. And the focus is not just our limited experience with G-d, but on the eternal truths of His Word. It makes sense, therefore, that even in eternity there will be a structure to our worship. I wonder how much of that will be similar to the structures already found in the Scriptures? One of the primary goals of the Messianic movement is to follow the Messiah within a biblically balanced Jewish culture. As our hearts are filled with the Spirit of G-d, it would seem that liturgy and Messianic worship can fit wonderfully together for the glory of Yeshua HaMashiach,. - Liturgy in Messianic Worship.By Barney Kasdan, Messianic Rabbi http://www.kehilatariel.org/wordpress/?page_id=251

Quote
Are Messianic Judaism and the Hebrew Roots Movement Talmudic?

by Michael D. Bugg

A frequent accusation by the opponents of Messianic Judaism and the Hebrew Roots movement as even being regarded valid expressions of faith in Yeshua is that our doctrine and practices are based on the Talmud, not on Scripture.  In truth, there are certainly Messianic individuals and groups for whom this is true; in fact, it is not unknown for some Messianics to go so far as to convert to Orthodox Judaism.  However, for most Messianics the place of the Talmud and other sources of Jewish tradition within a truly Biblical belief in Yeshua the Messiah, whether we term that faith Messianism or Christianity, is a matter of continuing discussion and debate.  Since no system of belief should be judged on its abuses—and indeed, Christianity as a whole would fare very poorly were we to paint it with so wide a brush as some of my Sunday-brethren are wont to paint Messianic Judaism—it’s important that we understand the nature of and the variety of positions within this debate.

The first distinction that must be made is that between Messianic Judaism and Hebrew Roots.  A Messianic, whether he comes from a Jewish or Gentile background, is generally committed to living a Torah-observant lifestyle after the fashion of our Lord and Savior, Yeshua HaMashiach.  The understanding of what that entails varies from person to person and congregation to congregation.

While there is a great degree of overlap between Messianics and those in the Hebrew Roots, the latter are primarily characterized by an intellectual interest in the insights into Scripture that understanding their distinctive Jewishness opens up.  They may worship with either a Messianic synagogue or a Sunday church—or both—but are not interested in reordering their lifestyle, or at least don’t feel called to do so.  And that’s perfectly fine; we are all saved by our faith in the Messiah of Israel, whether we call Him Yeshua or Jesus, not by our adherence to Torah.  Indeed, most Hebrew Roots Christians are to be commended for their earnest desire to know God through His Scriptures better.

Within the ranks of those who call themselves Messianics and seek to keep the Torah as best they can, there is a great deal of variety.  Many Messianics—in fact, the majority, to the chagrin of some—were born and raised as Gentile Christians.  They may have a Jewish parent or grandparent (and many who do not sadly spend a great deal of effort attempting to find a strain of Jewish blood in their genealogy), but were raised to celebrate Christmas instead of Hanukkah.  Others were born and raised as Jews, whether from a Conservative, Reform, or Orthodox background.

The cultural mix of a congregation has a great influence on the strictness of its halakha, its traditions.  Those with a greater percentage of members who were raised in Jewish tradition typically have a correspondingly higher regard for Jewish tradition, even believing in the concept of the Oral Torah (which we will discuss below).  Some Messianic synagogues are virtually indistinguishable from Orthodox or Reform synagogues in liturgy and practice, save only that they believe in Yeshua the Messiah and read from the B’rit Chadasha (the Renewed Covenant, or New Testament).  On the opposite end of the spectrum are Messianic congregations which are virtually indistinguishable from Sunday churches, save that they meet on Shabbat, observe the Feastdays, and use a little bit of Hebrew in their liturgy and music.

Beth HaMashiach, though originating as the latter kind of congregation, seeks to strike a balance between the two:  Our liturgy, organization, and trappings are decidedly Jewish, but we have deliberately adapted them to reflect our emphasis on the Messiah in Messianic Judaism.  Some would argue that we are “too Jewish,” while others would argue that we go too far in changing honored traditions.  We will trust to our King to forgive all of the errors that we doubtless make on both sides of the equation. http://hebrewroot.com/Articles/Messianic%20Talmud.htm

Quote
Oral Law—There is no single interpretation on the use of Talmud by Messianic congregations. Most Messianic congregations and synagogues can be said to believe that the oral traditions are subservient to the written Torah, and where there is a conflict between Torah and Talmud, the plain interpretation of Torah take precedence.[81][unreliable source?] Some congregations believe that adherence to the Oral Law, as encompassed by the Talmud, is against Messianic beliefs, since Talmud was not written until after the whole of the affirmed canon (begun 70 CE, completed approx 500 CE).[82] A few congregations believe that adherence to the Talmud is outright dangerous.[79][unreliable source?] Other congregations are selective in their applications of Talmudic law.[83][84][unreliable source?][85] Still others encourage a serious observance of the Jewish Halakha.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
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« Reply #76 on: February 29, 2012, 01:13:30 PM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?

I don`t think he did away with the Torah, he fulfilled it and renewed it.As it says in Isaiah : "The lord will exalt the Torah and make it honourable" ... no one looking at the splendour of the Gospel cannot not realise the beauty of the Torah.The Gospel is hidden in the Torah.The Torah was a shaddow of the Gospel even as the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews says in chapter 10 verse 1.The Gospel is the fulfillment of the Torah.The Torah radiates in the splendour of the Gospel.. The Torah is renewed and transcended in the New Covenant.Also as it says in Isaiah :"A torah shall come out of Me and my justice shall be a light to the Gentiles" and "I will make a new covenant" as it says in Jeremiah.

I will leave you with a few verses from the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Hebrews 10:8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.

Hebrews 10:15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16“This is the covenant I will make with them

after that time, says the Lord.

I will put my laws in their hearts,

and I will write them on their minds.”b

17Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts

I will remember no more.”c

18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

Jesus did not made a new religion.Christianity is the continuance of true Judaism, it has and it carries in herself(Christianity) Judaism .. Both the Old and the New.. The New in the Old concealed , the Old in the New revealed.. The Gospel carries in itself the Torah , just like the adult always carries in himself his own childhood.Christianity is and identifies itself with Judaism of the Old.. You will find many similarities between the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Judaism(Talmudic Judaism).
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« Reply #77 on: February 29, 2012, 01:18:58 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh
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« Reply #78 on: February 29, 2012, 02:10:01 PM »

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion?
Depends on how you define religion.
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« Reply #79 on: February 29, 2012, 02:13:26 PM »

Aren't they supposed to at least try to read from the Scriptures with some sort of reverence and decorum? Even Islam puts this whole charade to shame.

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« Reply #80 on: February 29, 2012, 02:24:09 PM »

Trying to be two things at once, makes it hard to succeed at being either.  Sad
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« Reply #81 on: February 29, 2012, 03:36:43 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

From the comments:
Quote
Y'shua is L-rd!

I'm all for Jewish use of the G-D in order to avoid saying/writing the Name, but this is more than excessive.

Is this usage normal in Messianic congregations?
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« Reply #82 on: February 29, 2012, 03:49:36 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

Arrrrgh, the American accents on the Hebrew ...
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« Reply #83 on: February 29, 2012, 04:15:57 PM »

Yeah. Normally I'm not one to get all up on my not-Hebrew (Greek, Slavonic, etc.)-speaking high horse, but that is sooooo bad. Ouch. It literally hurts to listen to.

Here is a real freaking Shema, from an authentic Jewish tradition (Yemenite). Notice how this Messianic Jewish nonsense doesn't even come close.
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« Reply #84 on: February 29, 2012, 04:20:21 PM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

Arrrrgh, the American accents on the Hebrew ...

Arrrrgh, Australian accents . . .
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« Reply #85 on: February 29, 2012, 05:52:40 PM »

Then people got the mistaken idea that Yeshua or Jesus had started a new religion. To Jews familiar with the TaNaKH (Torah, Nevi'im, Prophets--Old Testament), the idea that Jesus had started a new religion was a stumblingblock, especially since the Old Testament nowhere predicted that the Messiah was going to do such a thing.

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt..."

Where does your passage mention the starting of a new religion? There's no new religion prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34 or mentioned in the prophecy's fulfillment (Hebrew 8:7-12). Besides, don't the prophecy and fulfillment have God saying, "I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts" (Hebrews 8:10 cf. Jeremiah 31:33)? Why, then, would a Torah-observant Jew embrace as Messiah someone who supposedly did away with the Torah and started a new religion?

"Covenant" and "religion" etymologically are pretty similar (if not synonymous) in meaning.

God's law is more than the Torah.
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« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2012, 12:23:40 AM »

Mathetes, you do understand that St. James was writing BEFORE the Rabbis declared believers in the Messiah to be anathema, right?  You see, with virtually all religions spawned from others, there is a period where the leaders of the old religion are not sure what to do with those advocating new doctrines.  Eventually, the new doctrines either become standard, or alternatively the leaders of the old religion declare that the advocates of those new doctrines are heretics and are not part of their religion.  That is what the Rabbis did to Christians.  They declared that we are not Jews, that a Jew cannot believe in Jesus as the Messiah, let alone Christ as God. 

Even the Karaites only rule is that you can't believe that Jesus Christ is Messiah, nor that the Messiah is God.  They all uphold the idea that the Messiah will not be resurrected, as well, nor will come a second time.  Of course, with the number of Chabad Jews who believe that their Rebbe will come back to life, and is the Messiah, it may indeed be - in another few decades - that, at least, Chabad does not claim that particular objection to Christianity (and should that time come, they will almost certainly experience the same condemnation that the original Hassidim did, a few centuries ago).  Anyways, my point is, the Rabbis declared Christians heretics.  They believe that the Trinity is not only an incorrect view, but polytheism. 

Now, had the Rabbis not persecuted Christians in the first century, and tried to use the force of Roman law to wipe us out, it could be the case that Christians are still considered a sect of Judaism; yet, that is not what happened.

Messianic-Judaism is completely a-historical, and you just provided one more reason to think so.
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« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2012, 08:10:46 AM »

Here is a real freaking Shema, from an authentic Jewish tradition (Yemenite). Notice how this Messianic Jewish nonsense doesn't even come close.

God bless you! Yemenite pronunciation is the only one that should be permitted to be heard in public.
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« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2012, 12:26:48 PM »

Hahaha. Er...not exactly that, but I just wanted to point out the difference between the "Messianic Jewish" LARPing and the real thing. There are also other authentic traditions (that likewise don't sound anything like what's in the Messianic video); I just happened to know the Yemenite video already, so it was easy to find and post.
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« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2012, 12:37:56 PM »

I would like to hera a MJ explain the book of Galatians. Im not being facetious either. I would be interested on hearing/reading it.

However I do think Mathetes, and other here that are MJ's have alot of answering to do between the mutitude of arguments that have been presented recently Smiley

PP
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« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2012, 01:31:44 PM »

Yeah. Normally I'm not one to get all up on my not-Hebrew (Greek, Slavonic, etc.)-speaking high horse, but that is sooooo bad. Ouch. It literally hurts to listen to.

Here is a real freaking Shema, from an authentic Jewish tradition (Yemenite). Notice how this Messianic Jewish nonsense doesn't even come close.

Dzheremi, my schedule will severely limit my posting till Monday. Meanwhile, I'd like to comment on whether Beth Messiah's rendition of the Shema is nothing but Messianic Jewish nonsense.

The congregation was singing a traditional composition from Salomon Sulzer, a cantor-composer who lived from 1804 till 1890. His Shema is a mainstay in synagogues, Messianic and non-Messianic alike. Not surprisingly, it's simple and has a vocal range of four notes, making it ideal for a congregation of untrained voices.

The chants at your link aren't more authentic than Sulzer's Shema: they're ornate and melismatic--the kind of music that requires a well-trained voice. Since Eastern Orthodoxy uses both chants and simple responses, no doubt you can sense where I'm coming from.

If you're interested in reading more about Salomon Sulzer, you might check the Wikipedia article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Sulzer

Lord willing, I'll return on or about March 5.
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« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2012, 01:54:51 PM »

 I am having some difficulty with the statement," Christianity is the genuine continuation of Judaism."  The Old Testament law inspires one to fulfill the commandments chiefly for the sake of an earthly , temporal prosperity, the New Testament law inspires one to higher, eternal, spiritual goods. The Old Testament law was not abrogated by the Saviour: it was placed upon a better foundation. With the coming of the New Testament, it was only the Jewish ritual law that was abrogated. The law of the Gospel is given for all times unto the end of the age, and is not subject to being abrogated or changed. The law of the Gospel is given fro all men, and not for one people alone, as was the Old Testament law. The faith and teachings of the Gospel are called by the Fathers of the Church"Catholic", embracing all men at all times. Salvation is through faith in Christ and His teachings.

 Have you looked into the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2012, 02:05:03 PM »

Quote
Lord willing, I'll return on or about March 5
I look forward to your answer machine gun Smiley

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« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2012, 02:16:12 PM »

Hahaha. Er...not exactly that, but I just wanted to point out the difference between the "Messianic Jewish" LARPing and the real thing. There are also other authentic traditions (that likewise don't sound anything like what's in the Messianic video); I just happened to know the Yemenite video already, so it was easy to find and post.

Samaritan is also kinda cool. But modern Hebrew pronunciation (which is basically just German/Dutch pronunciation) is hideous and sounds no more Semitic than the thick Brooklyn accent you often hear from American rabbis.
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« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2012, 02:34:21 PM »


Dzheremi, my schedule will severely limit my posting till Monday. Meanwhile, I'd like to comment on whether Beth Messiah's rendition of the Shema is nothing but Messianic Jewish nonsense.

The congregation was singing a traditional composition from Salomon Sulzer, a cantor-composer who lived from 1804 till 1890. His Shema is a mainstay in synagogues, Messianic and non-Messianic alike. Not surprisingly, it's simple and has a vocal range of four notes, making it ideal for a congregation of untrained voices.

The chants at your link aren't more authentic than Sulzer's Shema: they're ornate and melismatic--the kind of music that requires a well-trained voice. Since Eastern Orthodoxy uses both chants and simple responses, no doubt you can sense where I'm coming from.

Not at all, in fact. I'm not EO. The Coptic Church's chants and modes are something different entirely, bearing a much greater relation to the melismatic chant of the Mizrahim than anything from the EO, though of course with their own personality. Here is one example from the morning praises.

If you'll note my reply to Orthodox11, the point is not that only Yemenite pronunciation should be considered authentic, but that what is heard in the Messianic video is...eh...something else. Here is Sulzer's version of the Shema, by the way. I'll leave it to the readers of this thread to compare it to what is in the Messianic video and see how close or far off the Messiancs are. To my ears, it seems quite far off (more of a "campfire version" of Sulzer), though I'm willing to admit that my perception is probably colored by my belief that the Messianics are quite far off doctrinally from either camp they are trying to identify with.

And, yes, as Orthodox11 just replied, the Ashkenazic pronunciation of Hebrew leaves something to be desired, in terms of its faithfulness to the Semitic nature of the language (loss of 'ayn, to use but one example). That was another reason I posted a specifically Yeminite Shema, as it is the Yemenite and other Mizrahi Jews who keep the a more "Semitic" pronunciation of Hebrew. The Sephardim also do a good job of keeping it relatively traditional... (though their phonology, under influence of Spanish, also shows some differences, such as collapse of "b" and "v" that is retained by Moroccans and others, whereas apparently in Ladino they are separate phonemes; heck, in some dialects of Peninsular Spanish they are [or nearly are] separate phonemes.)
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« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2012, 05:21:13 PM »


Dzheremi, my schedule will severely limit my posting till Monday. Meanwhile, I'd like to comment on whether Beth Messiah's rendition of the Shema is nothing but Messianic Jewish nonsense.

The congregation was singing a traditional composition from Salomon Sulzer, a cantor-composer who lived from 1804 till 1890. His Shema is a mainstay in synagogues, Messianic and non-Messianic alike. Not surprisingly, it's simple and has a vocal range of four notes, making it ideal for a congregation of untrained voices.

The chants at your link aren't more authentic than Sulzer's Shema: they're ornate and melismatic--the kind of music that requires a well-trained voice. Since Eastern Orthodoxy uses both chants and simple responses, no doubt you can sense where I'm coming from.

Not at all, in fact. I'm not EO. The Coptic Church's chants and modes are something different entirely, bearing a much greater relation to the melismatic chant of the Mizrahim than anything from the EO, though of course with their own personality. Here is one example from the morning praises.

If you'll note my reply to Orthodox11, the point is not that only Yemenite pronunciation should be considered authentic, but that what is heard in the Messianic video is...eh...something else. Here is Sulzer's version of the Shema, by the way. I'll leave it to the readers of this thread to compare it to what is in the Messianic video and see how close or far off the Messiancs are. To my ears, it seems quite far off (more of a "campfire version" of Sulzer), though I'm willing to admit that my perception is probably colored by my belief that the Messianics are quite far off doctrinally from either camp they are trying to identify with.

And, yes, as Orthodox11 just replied, the Ashkenazic pronunciation of Hebrew leaves something to be desired, in terms of its faithfulness to the Semitic nature of the language (loss of 'ayn, to use but one example). That was another reason I posted a specifically Yeminite Shema, as it is the Yemenite and other Mizrahi Jews who keep the a more "Semitic" pronunciation of Hebrew. The Sephardim also do a good job of keeping it relatively traditional... (though their phonology, under influence of Spanish, also shows some differences, such as collapse of "b" and "v" that is retained by Moroccans and others, whereas apparently in Ladino they are separate phonemes; heck, in some dialects of Peninsular Spanish they are [or nearly are] separate phonemes.)

Thanks for your link to the Shema. According to your link, that version of the Shema was sung at Yom Kippur. It's a bit different from the version I've heard sung on weekly Sabbaths, but maybe Sulzer wrote more than one version.

The congregational version I recall, the one sung at Beth Messiah, is on the CD "Thank God It's Friday!" If my memory hasn't failed me, this version may have also been sung in the movie "Schindler's List." You may be able to hear it at this link from Barnes & Noble:

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/mediaplayer.asp?ean=047163754623&disc=1&track=16c

To hear the Shema, you must scroll down to the 16th audio sample and click on it. I'm sorry that you can't hear the whole thing, but we get what we pay for.  Wink
« Last Edit: March 01, 2012, 05:27:12 PM by mathetes » Logged

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« Reply #96 on: March 02, 2012, 11:31:47 AM »


Dzheremi, my schedule will severely limit my posting till Monday. Meanwhile, I'd like to comment on whether Beth Messiah's rendition of the Shema is nothing but Messianic Jewish nonsense.

The congregation was singing a traditional composition from Salomon Sulzer, a cantor-composer who lived from 1804 till 1890. His Shema is a mainstay in synagogues, Messianic and non-Messianic alike. Not surprisingly, it's simple and has a vocal range of four notes, making it ideal for a congregation of untrained voices.

The chants at your link aren't more authentic than Sulzer's Shema: they're ornate and melismatic--the kind of music that requires a well-trained voice. Since Eastern Orthodoxy uses both chants and simple responses, no doubt you can sense where I'm coming from.

Not at all, in fact. I'm not EO. The Coptic Church's chants and modes are something different entirely, bearing a much greater relation to the melismatic chant of the Mizrahim than anything from the EO, though of course with their own personality. Here is one example from the morning praises.

If you'll note my reply to Orthodox11, the point is not that only Yemenite pronunciation should be considered authentic, but that what is heard in the Messianic video is...eh...something else. Here is Sulzer's version of the Shema, by the way. I'll leave it to the readers of this thread to compare it to what is in the Messianic video and see how close or far off the Messiancs are. To my ears, it seems quite far off (more of a "campfire version" of Sulzer), though I'm willing to admit that my perception is probably colored by my belief that the Messianics are quite far off doctrinally from either camp they are trying to identify with.

And, yes, as Orthodox11 just replied, the Ashkenazic pronunciation of Hebrew leaves something to be desired, in terms of its faithfulness to the Semitic nature of the language (loss of 'ayn, to use but one example). That was another reason I posted a specifically Yeminite Shema, as it is the Yemenite and other Mizrahi Jews who keep the a more "Semitic" pronunciation of Hebrew. The Sephardim also do a good job of keeping it relatively traditional... (though their phonology, under influence of Spanish, also shows some differences, such as collapse of "b" and "v" that is retained by Moroccans and others, whereas apparently in Ladino they are separate phonemes; heck, in some dialects of Peninsular Spanish they are [or nearly are] separate phonemes.)

Thanks for your link to the Shema. According to your link, that version of the Shema was sung at Yom Kippur. It's a bit different from the version I've heard sung on weekly Sabbaths, but maybe Sulzer wrote more than one version.

The congregational version I recall, the one sung at Beth Messiah, is on the CD "Thank God It's Friday!" If my memory hasn't failed me, this version may have also been sung in the movie "Schindler's List." You may be able to hear it at this link from Barnes & Noble:

http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/mediaplayer.asp?ean=047163754623&disc=1&track=16c

To hear the Shema, you must scroll down to the 16th audio sample and click on it. I'm sorry that you can't hear the whole thing, but we get what we pay for.  Wink





I would like to recommend the following book, which you might find interesting.
Surprised by Christ- by Rev. A. James Bernstein- Conciliar Press
He is a convert from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity.

Have you ever considered or looked into the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #97 on: March 05, 2012, 11:26:24 PM »

I am having some difficulty with the statement," Christianity is the genuine continuation of Judaism."  The Old Testament law inspires one to fulfill the commandments chiefly for the sake of an earthly , temporal prosperity, the New Testament law inspires one to higher, eternal, spiritual goods. The Old Testament law was not abrogated by the Saviour: it was placed upon a better foundation. With the coming of the New Testament, it was only the Jewish ritual law that was abrogated. The law of the Gospel is given for all times unto the end of the age, and is not subject to being abrogated or changed. The law of the Gospel is given fro all men, and not for one people alone, as was the Old Testament law. The faith and teachings of the Gospel are called by the Fathers of the Church"Catholic", embracing all men at all times. Salvation is through faith in Christ and His teachings.

 Have you looked into the Orthodox Church?

Vasily, I'm back and trying to figure out what posts to reply to. Yes, I have been looking into the Orthodox Church, but no, I didn't describe Christianity as "the genuine continuation of Judaism." I think Azul, who's Eastern Orthodox, wrote that in Reply 76:

" Jesus did not made a new religion.Christianity is the continuance of true Judaism, it has and it carries in herself(Christianity) Judaism .. Both the Old and the New.. The New in the Old concealed , the Old in the New revealed.. The Gospel carries in itself the Torah , just like the adult always carries in himself his own childhood.Christianity is and identifies itself with Judaism of the Old.. You will find many similarities between the Orthodox Church and Orthodox Judaism(Talmudic Judaism)."

I hope your weekend went well.
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« Reply #98 on: March 05, 2012, 11:46:41 PM »

I would like to recommend the following book, which you might find interesting.
Surprised by Christ- by Rev. A. James Bernstein- Conciliar Press
He is a convert from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity.

Have you ever considered or looked into the Orthodox Church?

Thanks for the information about Rev. Bernstein and his book. I'd not known that he wrote down his testimony about his conversion. I'll try to get a copy of that book.

Yes, I've considered the Orthodox Church for several years, and I've picked up a copy of The Orthodox Study Bible as well as a catechism and some other books. In my hometown there are about four Orthodox congregations: a GOA church, an OCA mission, a Syrian Orthodox Church, and an Egyptian Orthodox Church. Most of my contact has been with the GOA church, which puts on a Greek festival every fall and has a bookstore. The church tour during the festival has been interesting, and I've been struck by the symbolism in the icons and in some carvings.
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« Reply #99 on: March 06, 2012, 01:55:44 AM »

I would like to recommend the following book, which you might find interesting.
Surprised by Christ- by Rev. A. James Bernstein- Conciliar Press
He is a convert from Judaism to Orthodox Christianity.

Have you ever considered or looked into the Orthodox Church?

Thanks for the information about Rev. Bernstein and his book. I'd not known that he wrote down his testimony about his conversion. I'll try to get a copy of that book.

Yes, I've considered the Orthodox Church for several years, and I've picked up a copy of The Orthodox Study Bible as well as a catechism and some other books. In my hometown there are about four Orthodox congregations: a GOA church, an OCA mission, a Syrian Orthodox Church, and an Egyptian Orthodox Church. Most of my contact has been with the GOA church, which puts on a Greek festival every fall and has a bookstore. The church tour during the festival has been interesting, and I've been struck by the symbolism in the icons and in some carvings.


I recommend, if you genuinely do want to learn more about Orthodoxy, that you read the Rainbow Series, by Fr. Thomas Hopko.  Here is a link to the OCA's website, with all four volumes online: http://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith  I just finished reading them, on the recommendation of my priest.  They have a wealth of information and, while I read them after having studied Orthodoxy for quite a while, I think they are easily accessible even to someone who knows nothing about the Church.  Also, read Met. Kallistos' books The Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Way.
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« Reply #100 on: March 06, 2012, 11:04:11 AM »

There is so much win in this video I am going to plotz.


Here's you some Shabbat liturgy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCMF0xakJQU&feature=related


I missed the gospel reading...  Huh

From the comments:
Quote
Y'shua is L-rd!

I'm all for Jewish use of the G-D in order to avoid saying/writing the Name, but this is more than excessive.

Is this usage normal in Messianic congregations?

For more than a decade, rabbis have been saying the practice of using hyphens in "G-d" and "L-rd" is a modern fad that would soon pass. As you know, the fad is still going strong.

In the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America, I've seen these hyphenated words in letters but never in published books or pamphlets. As you've noticed, I spell out the words "God" and "Lord." I've noticed them fully spelled in non-MJAA books such as Dr. David Stern's Complete Jewish Bible, Jewish New Testament Commentary, and Messianic Jewish Manifesto as well as in the non-Messianic Jewish Publication Society's JPS Study Bible.

People who use the hyphens have told me that that when a paper with "God" or "Lord" on it is discarded, that's like throwing away part of God. I note, though, that in Numbers 5:11-31, which concerns wives suspected of adultery, the Sacred Name is included in a curse that the priest was supposed to write and then scrape or wash away (Numbers 5:20-24 in the New King James Version).
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« Reply #101 on: March 11, 2012, 11:23:49 PM »

Mathetes, I think it ironic that the anonymous "mathetes" of the famous early writing "Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus" regarded the sect of rabbinic judaism with some contempt:

"And next, I imagine that you are most desirous of hearing something on this point, that the Christians do not observe the same forms of divine worship as do the Jews. The Jews, then, if they abstain from the kind of service above described, and deem it proper to worship one God as being Lord of all, [are right]; but if they offer Him worship in the way which we have described, they greatly err. For while the Gentiles, by offering such things to those that are destitute of sense and hearing, furnish an example of madness; they, on the other hand by thinking to offer these things to God as if He needed them, might justly reckon it rather an act of folly than of divine worship. For He that made heaven and earth, and all that is therein, and gives to us all the things of which we stand in need, certainly requires none of those things which He Himself bestows on such as think of furnishing them to Him.

But those who imagine that, by means of blood, and the smoke of sacrifices and burnt-offerings, they offer sacrifices [acceptable] to Him, and that by such honours they show Him respect,--these, by supposing that they can give anything to Him who stands in need of nothing, appear to me in no respect to differ from those who studiously confer the same honour on things destitute of sense, and which therefore are unable to enjoy such honours.


But as to their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons, which are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice,--I do not think that you require to learn anything from me. For, to accept some of those things which have been formed by God for the use of men as properly formed, and to reject others as useless and redundant,--how can this be lawful? And to speak falsely of God, as if He forbade us to do what is good on the Sabbath-days,--how is not this impious? And to glory in the circumcision of the flesh as a proof of election, and as if, on account of it, they were specially beloved by God,--how is it not a subject of ridicule?

And as to their observing months and days, as if waiting upon the stars and the moon, and their distributing, according to their own tendencies, the appointments of God, and the vicissitudes of the seasons, some for festivities, and others for mourning,--who would deem this a part of divine worship, and not much rather a manifestation of folly? I suppose, then, you are sufficiently convinced that the Christians properly abstain from the vanity and error common [to both Jews and Gentiles], and from the busy-body spirit and vain boasting of the Jews; but you must not hope to learn the mystery of their peculiar mode of worshipping God from any mortal."
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« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2012, 02:16:40 AM »

I think it's really pointless to debate this issue on will a christian forum. Mathetes I understand you wanting to defend you choice on views but your pretty much talking to people who are closed off in heart and mind to anything that would lead to a good debate
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« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2012, 02:43:12 AM »

I think it's really pointless to debate this issue on will a christian forum. Mathetes I understand you wanting to defend you choice on views but your pretty much talking to people who are closed off in heart and mind to anything that would lead to a good debate
lol.
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« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2012, 02:48:04 AM »

I think it's really pointless to debate this issue on will a christian forum. Mathetes I understand you wanting to defend you choice on views but your pretty much talking to people who are closed off in heart and mind to anything that would lead to a good debate

To the contrary, Mathetes seems to be doing just fine.
I don't speak for him, but I assume he can make the call himself as to whether the debate is good, worthwhile or not.
Are you uncomfortable about him continuing the dialog?
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« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2012, 02:57:22 AM »

I think it's really pointless to debate this issue on will a christian forum. Mathetes I understand you wanting to defend you choice on views but your pretty much talking to people who are closed off in heart and mind to anything that would lead to a good debate

To the contrary, Mathetes seems to be doing just fine.
I don't speak for him, but I assume he can make the call himself as to whether the debate is good, worthwhile or not.
Are you uncomfortable about him continuing the dialog?
You, Mathetes or anyone else can post whatever you want. I was just giving my thoughts on the subject
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« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2012, 03:56:22 AM »

Someone mentioned upthread (way, way upthread) that they wondered what Jews think of "Messianic Judaism". While I am not Jewish myself, from interactions with several Orthodox Jews and at least one Conservative Jew, the consensus was unanimous: they found it abhorrent. They viewed it as a Christian ploy to trick Jews into becoming Christian with Jewish trappings, but without actual Judaism. Essentially, as completely dishonest.

When I was Protestant, I briefly (blessedly briefly) considered MJ. As others have astutely discerned, I was truly looking for tradition and roots. At that point I was totally unaware of Christian history, so in my mind before the Reformation there was Judaism.  Roll Eyes I never made it off of my couch and into a MJ service however, because my study led me to conclude that MJism is irreconcilable with Christian theology (Acts, Galatians...).

Anyway, popping out of lurkdom to toss in my $.02.

Cheers!

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« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2012, 04:04:44 AM »

Someone mentioned upthread (way, way upthread) that they wondered what Jews think of "Messianic Judaism". While I am not Jewish myself, from interactions with several Orthodox Jews and at least one Conservative Jew, the consensus was unanimous: they found it abhorrent. They viewed it as a Christian ploy to trick Jews into becoming Christian with Jewish trappings, but without actual Judaism. Essentially, as completely dishonest.

When I was Protestant, I briefly (blessedly briefly) considered MJ. As others have astutely discerned, I was truly looking for tradition and roots. At that point I was totally unaware of Christian history, so in my mind before the Reformation there was Judaism.  Roll Eyes I never made it off of my couch and into a MJ service however, because my study led me to conclude that MJism is irreconcilable with Christian theology (Acts, Galatians...).

Anyway, popping out of lurkdom to toss in my $.02.

Cheers!



The tone of your post is a disgrace to your username.
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« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2012, 04:08:11 AM »

Someone mentioned upthread (way, way upthread) that they wondered what Jews think of "Messianic Judaism". While I am not Jewish myself, from interactions with several Orthodox Jews and at least one Conservative Jew, the consensus was unanimous: they found it abhorrent. They viewed it as a Christian ploy to trick Jews into becoming Christian with Jewish trappings, but without actual Judaism. Essentially, as completely dishonest.

When I was Protestant, I briefly (blessedly briefly) considered MJ. As others have astutely discerned, I was truly looking for tradition and roots. At that point I was totally unaware of Christian history, so in my mind before the Reformation there was Judaism.  Roll Eyes I never made it off of my couch and into a MJ service however, because my study led me to conclude that MJism is irreconcilable with Christian theology (Acts, Galatians...).

Anyway, popping out of lurkdom to toss in my $.02.

Cheers!



Oh yeah, here is your Messianic Jew par excellence, let your Jewish friends know about him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxecp3C6W6s
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« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2012, 01:17:15 PM »

 I have read the info on the website the "Messianic Jewish Alliance of America". They call for the restoration of Israel and are tied to Christian Zionists. In fulfillment of the prophecy, the spiritual restoration of Israel was initiated within the context of the Jesus People Revival.


 I have some questions.

 Is the messianic movement a Zionist one?
 Do the major Orthodox Jewish groups teach the same things(the restoration of the Temple)?
 I am aware of other Messianic groups, do you have contact with them? Are they aware of Orthodox Christianity?
 
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« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2012, 08:42:44 PM »

I have read the info on the website the "Messianic Jewish Alliance of America". They call for the restoration of Israel and are tied to Christian Zionists. In fulfillment of the prophecy, the spiritual restoration of Israel was initiated within the context of the Jesus People Revival.


 I have some questions.

 Is the messianic movement a Zionist one?
 Do the major Orthodox Jewish groups teach the same things(the restoration of the Temple)?
 I am aware of other Messianic groups, do you have contact with them? Are they aware of Orthodox Christianity?
 
I can only answer 2 of your 3 questions
Is the Messianic movement a Zionist one? Plain and simple NO most people in this movement are not even Jewish. You do seam to come off on this question as if Zionist are bad but is there really any problem with people being proud of who they are. Were not the ones with Greek, Russian, German etc etc above or in our shul names just something to think about on who's boosting more pride.

Do the major Orthodox Jewish groups teach the same things (the restoration of the Temple)? We Jews really don't have um what you call dogma to teachings. If you were to put a few of us in one room and ask us this question you would get a handful of different answers. In the most part we do look for the new Temple to be built now does that mean stone and brick some may say yes some may think spiritual depending on whom or what Rabbi or Sage you follow


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« Reply #111 on: March 16, 2012, 10:37:35 AM »

 There is nothing wrong with being proud of your ethnic background. The problem arises when that pride turns into a political force.
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« Reply #112 on: March 16, 2012, 06:00:29 PM »

Quote
Is the Messianic movement a Zionist one?
It is not Zionist, no. However I would say that it adheres to some principles of Zionism and Dispensationalism.

Quote
You do seam to come off on this question as if Zionist are bad but is there really any problem with people being proud of who they are
Zionism is a bit more than just that, but I think it was an honest question. He wasn't bashing it.

Quote
Were not the ones with Greek, Russian, German etc etc above or in our shul names just something to think about on who's boosting more pride.
its not "pride" really. But you do have a point.

PP

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« Reply #113 on: March 16, 2012, 07:25:52 PM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
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« Reply #114 on: March 16, 2012, 07:29:36 PM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
I'd have to agree.

I do find it tragic that with all the help Jewish Zionists receive from the Christian variety, they refuse to let MJ's be able to participate in the repatriation project in Israel. That sucks...

PP
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« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2012, 07:35:42 PM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
I'd have to agree.

I do find it tragic that with all the help Jewish Zionists receive from the Christian variety, they refuse to let MJ's be able to participate in the repatriation project in Israel. That sucks...

PP

I believe that what we refere to as Jewish Zionism is the Jewish philosophy that sees the whole world in a discriminatorial way and not national Jewish pride..
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« Reply #116 on: March 16, 2012, 07:36:45 PM »

Thats the way I see it Smiley

PP
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« Reply #117 on: March 17, 2012, 09:13:11 AM »

 I would like to make one other point that I neglected to mention. It is when pride ( in most cases ethnic or nationalistic) becomes the major force, and the very fact that their faith becomes second in nature. In the Orthodox world, we confess the same faith, but there exists individuals who place being Greek, Russian or Ukraine as being the most important.
As far as Zionism, from what I know it has nothing to do with the faith or practice of Judaism, but the fact that "I am Jewish". Is it more important to know that I am Jew or that I am a religious Jew, who worships at Temple and follows the Torah?
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« Reply #118 on: March 17, 2012, 10:22:44 PM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
Really so what did your G-d mean when he said that pigs ( non Jews) weren't worth his pearls or something like this. I still see you follow after him. Zionism is not about race or discrimination when you set down and read what the Torah has to say we are to be set apart now that don't mean we are to be mean to others but we must keep hold of the law and faith so as to lead others back to there G-d. Be it as Noahide law keepers or Jew's but one does not have to be a Jew to follow after the one true G-d and have a place and a good taste of the world to come. Thats what it means when it says that we (Jew's) are the light of this world and many will come and say your Jew and we know that G-d is with you let us follow after you and teach us of G-d. 
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« Reply #119 on: March 18, 2012, 08:25:28 AM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
Really so what did your G-d mean when he said that pigs ( non Jews) weren't worth his pearls or something like this. I still see you follow after him. Zionism is not about race or discrimination when you set down and read what the Torah has to say we are to be set apart now that don't mean we are to be mean to others but we must keep hold of the law and faith so as to lead others back to there G-d. Be it as Noahide law keepers or Jew's but one does not have to be a Jew to follow after the one true G-d and have a place and a good taste of the world to come. Thats what it means when it says that we (Jew's) are the light of this world and many will come and say your Jew and we know that G-d is with you let us follow after you and teach us of G-d. 

He didn`t mean that.He tested their faith.He said that in order to see if the Apostles would stick to the interpretation of their religion or not and to test and show the faith of the phoenician woman.Now the roles are kind of reversed don`t you think?If you insist on refering to someone as a pig or as a dog than the "Jews" are your people.
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« Reply #120 on: March 18, 2012, 08:16:09 PM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
Really so what did your G-d mean when he said that pigs ( non Jews) weren't worth his pearls or something like this. I still see you follow after him. Zionism is not about race or discrimination when you set down and read what the Torah has to say we are to be set apart now that don't mean we are to be mean to others but we must keep hold of the law and faith so as to lead others back to there G-d. Be it as Noahide law keepers or Jew's but one does not have to be a Jew to follow after the one true G-d and have a place and a good taste of the world to come. Thats what it means when it says that we (Jew's) are the light of this world and many will come and say your Jew and we know that G-d is with you let us follow after you and teach us of G-d. 

He didn`t mean that.He tested their faith.He said that in order to see if the Apostles would stick to the interpretation of their religion or not and to test and show the faith of the phoenician woman.Now the roles are kind of reversed don`t you think?If you insist on refering to someone as a pig or as a dog than the "Jews" are your people.
You Got one thing right Jew's are my people as I'm a Jew  Smiley but as far as the other part I thought G-d never changes his mind cause he's not like us to do so. If you don't like the word and meaning of non Jew's then you would need to take that up with G-d and not me I can't answer for him.
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« Reply #121 on: March 19, 2012, 05:23:22 AM »

Since when did Non Jew mean Pig?
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« Reply #122 on: March 19, 2012, 09:19:15 AM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
Really so what did your G-d mean when he said that pigs ( non Jews) weren't worth his pearls or something like this. I still see you follow after him. Zionism is not about race or discrimination when you set down and read what the Torah has to say we are to be set apart now that don't mean we are to be mean to others but we must keep hold of the law and faith so as to lead others back to there G-d. Be it as Noahide law keepers or Jew's but one does not have to be a Jew to follow after the one true G-d and have a place and a good taste of the world to come. Thats what it means when it says that we (Jew's) are the light of this world and many will come and say your Jew and we know that G-d is with you let us follow after you and teach us of G-d. 

He didn`t mean that.He tested their faith.He said that in order to see if the Apostles would stick to the interpretation of their religion or not and to test and show the faith of the phoenician woman.Now the roles are kind of reversed don`t you think?If you insist on refering to someone as a pig or as a dog than the "Jews" are your people.
You Got one thing right Jew's are my people as I'm a Jew  Smiley but as far as the other part I thought G-d never changes his mind cause he's not like us to do so. If you don't like the word and meaning of non Jew's then you would need to take that up with G-d and not me I can't answer for him.

Ah, but is it "Jews" or "Israel" who are the chosen people?  Israel, of course.  And the Church is Israel.
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« Reply #123 on: March 19, 2012, 12:09:17 PM »

Since when did Non Jew mean Pig?

Since 'never'.
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« Reply #124 on: March 19, 2012, 12:09:53 PM »

I think zionism goes beyond that and enters into the spheres of discrimination and racism.
Really so what did your G-d mean when he said that pigs ( non Jews) weren't worth his pearls or something like this. I still see you follow after him. Zionism is not about race or discrimination when you set down and read what the Torah has to say we are to be set apart now that don't mean we are to be mean to others but we must keep hold of the law and faith so as to lead others back to there G-d. Be it as Noahide law keepers or Jew's but one does not have to be a Jew to follow after the one true G-d and have a place and a good taste of the world to come. Thats what it means when it says that we (Jew's) are the light of this world and many will come and say your Jew and we know that G-d is with you let us follow after you and teach us of G-d.  

He didn`t mean that.He tested their faith.He said that in order to see if the Apostles would stick to the interpretation of their religion or not and to test and show the faith of the phoenician woman.Now the roles are kind of reversed don`t you think?If you insist on refering to someone as a pig or as a dog than the "Jews" are your people.
You Got one thing right Jew's are my people as I'm a Jew  Smiley but as far as the other part I thought G-d never changes his mind cause he's not like us to do so. If you don't like the word and meaning of non Jew's then you would need to take that up with G-d and not me I can't answer for him.

your god does not exist.
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« Reply #125 on: March 19, 2012, 12:29:17 PM »

Quote
If you don't like the word and meaning of non Jew's then you would need to take that up with G-d and not me I can't answer for him
and folks wonder why so many believe Zionism is racist......

PP
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« Reply #126 on: March 19, 2012, 02:05:50 PM »

Since when did Non Jew mean Pig?

Since 'never'.

we have been likened to dogs in scripture, but not too sure about pigs...  Cheesy
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« Reply #127 on: March 19, 2012, 04:07:56 PM »

Since when did Non Jew mean Pig?

Since 'never'.

we have been likened to dogs in scripture, but not too sure about pigs...  Cheesy

were we?specifically where?
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« Reply #128 on: March 19, 2012, 04:10:12 PM »

When Christ talks to the gentile woman, she says even the dogs can lick the crumbs from the table and JEsus praises her for her great faith. Gentiles at this time were like Dogs because they were not of israel and did not have God with them though this would change when Israel was open to the gentiles via the church.
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« Reply #129 on: March 19, 2012, 04:21:58 PM »

When Christ talks to the gentile woman, she says even the dogs can lick the crumbs from the table and JEsus praises her for her great faith. Gentiles at this time were like Dogs because they were not of israel and did not have God with them though this would change when Israel was open to the gentiles via the church.

The thing is that Jesus didn`t really ment what he said.He did that for their faith.He actually helped the woman and gave his bread to her.

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« Reply #130 on: March 19, 2012, 04:25:05 PM »

When Christ talks to the gentile woman, she says even the dogs can lick the crumbs from the table and JEsus praises her for her great faith. Gentiles at this time were like Dogs because they were not of israel and did not have God with them though this would change when Israel was open to the gentiles via the church.

The thing is that Jesus didn`t really ment what he said.He did that for their faith.He actually helped the woman and gave his bread to her.



I think Jesus did. St John Chrysostom affirms this interpretation that the gentiles at that time lacked a state of grace that the jews had and were dogs. But it is also true, Jesus recognised this woman's great faith and helped her regardless.
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« Reply #131 on: March 19, 2012, 06:19:28 PM »

Quote
If you don't like the word and meaning of non Jew's then you would need to take that up with G-d and not me I can't answer for him
and folks wonder why so many believe Zionism is racist......

PP
I can't answer for what is written in the scrolls I didn't write them. Then the question becomes do you think the Torah is the word of G-d ? My answer is yes so when people get mad at what is wrote and said in it then in my mind the have a problem with G-d. I can't answer for G-d or even try to.
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« Reply #132 on: March 19, 2012, 06:26:25 PM »

When Christ talks to the gentile woman, she says even the dogs can lick the crumbs from the table and JEsus praises her for her great faith. Gentiles at this time were like Dogs because they were not of israel and did not have God with them though this would change when Israel was open to the gentiles via the church.

The thing is that Jesus didn`t really ment what he said.He did that for their faith.He actually helped the woman and gave his bread to her.



*epic eyeroll* To both posts. Read the text. Just read it.

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« Reply #133 on: March 19, 2012, 07:24:32 PM »

I think it's really pointless to debate this issue on will a christian forum. Mathetes I understand you wanting to defend you choice on views but your pretty much talking to people who are closed off in heart and mind to anything that would lead to a good debate
Once you have found the Truth, why entertain falsehood? That we win the debate doesn't mean it wasn't good.
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« Reply #134 on: March 20, 2012, 09:56:33 AM »

Quote
If you don't like the word and meaning of non Jew's then you would need to take that up with G-d and not me I can't answer for him
and folks wonder why so many believe Zionism is racist......

PP
I can't answer for what is written in the scrolls I didn't write them. Then the question becomes do you think the Torah is the word of G-d ? My answer is yes so when people get mad at what is wrote and said in it then in my mind the have a problem with G-d. I can't answer for G-d or even try to.
You have to read in context of what is going on, and ask "Why was this put here? What is going on? To whom  is this being addressed?" Just reading without any background of what is going on can really skew what is really being said. Was Jesus really calling all Jews swine? Did Paul have an all-out attack on The Law? Or was this a narrative of something going on that was being reacted to?

PP
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« Reply #135 on: April 21, 2012, 12:18:56 AM »

As a former Orthodox Jew, I'd like to explain the perspective I was taught. However, I'm not looking to argue the validity of any group.

The Orthodox Jews I knew had absolutely nothing good to say about Messianic Jews. I don't think they even used that label, or the more common "Jews for Jesus." I heard "Jees for Jewsus" and "Jews for Yeshkua" (the k is used to separate a holy name from a mundane name; Orthodox Jews say "kelohim" in conversation and "elohim," a name of god, only in prayer... the idea is that because Jesus, or Yeshua, is worshiped as a deity, they make sure not to utter his name). I was frequently told not to talk to them, let alone any proselytizer. I knew an Orthodox college student who had a heated debate with a Messianic Jew outside a classroom; as you can imagine, one insisted the other was delusional and one insisted the other was in denial. They, like Reform, Conservative (and in the case of some Orthodox sects, even other Orthodox) Jews are considered heretics.

Because many Messianic Jews are not Jewish according to Orthodox standards (born to a Jewish mother), they don't proselytize to them directly. However, there are many websites and programs that the Orthodox have developed to bring "real" Jews who have been "duped" by Messianics back into the fold. Their primary tactics are:
1) Refuting the verses in the Old Testament that supposedly prophesy the coming of Christ (e.g. "a maiden will conceive a son" as opposed to "a virgin will conceive a son"),
2) Stressing verses that proclaim the oneness of god (Bamidbar/Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind."), and
3) De-legitimizing the New Testament by pointing out inconsistencies, such as Jesus's different genealogies (internal), or that Jesus can't be patrilineal descendent of King David, and thus the Moshiach/Messiah, since his supposed father is god (external).

I was stopped by a Messianic Jew when I was walking to a friend's house on the Sabbath (it was not hard to tell that I was Jewish). My friend, an older gentleman, did most of the talking. The conversation was mostly civil. The Messianic Jew didn't seem to know much about the Judaism we knew about. It turned out he actually wasn't even Jewish (on either side of his family). He seemed to understand why I could not accept Jesus as god because the Torah stated that god was one and not a man; he argued that because Jesus really is god, we should all worship him. Unfortunately, it ended with him proselytizing and my friend walking away annoyed.

Some other points:

The Oral Torah was handed down to Moses by God.  Moses handed it down to the Jewish men, but it was not to be written.  They handed it down to their sons and their students for countless generations, until some Rabbis thought it was a good idea to break the commandment to not write it down.  Then they gradually continued to write more and more of it down, and further erode the idea that it is oral. to the point that such idea is essentially non-existent.  But, yes, the Talmud is a compilation (and there are actually two Talmuds, the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds, the Babylonian is what most people refer to when they say Talmud, however) of Oral Torah, that - despite coming directly from God - takes the form of a debate that at times has the winner not seem to be on any more logical ground than the loser.

I will not argue with your story, but this is what the Rabbis taught me: facing the Roman exile, the Jews were "forced" to write down the Mishnah in around 200CE, out of fear of losing their tradition. Later came the Gemara (also known as the Talmud), which elaborates on the Mishnah.

I personally believe that the rabbis may have had ulterior motives for writing down the law, but the above is what they teach Orthodox Jews.

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

I was always a little confused by the article on Judaism on OrthodoxWiki, which states "Judaism is a religion which has arisen after Jews have rejected and crucified the Messiah predicted by Old Testament prophets." I was always taught that Judaism came first, and Christianity was an offshoot of that. Is it a common belief among Orthodox (and perhaps non-Orthodox) Christians that the form of Judaism existent today is nothing more than a reaction to Christianity? I will not dispute this, but it certainly differs from what the Rabbis say.

Also, it's interesting that Nicholas uses the term "Hellenistic." Traditionally, the story of Hannukah is about the malevolent, polytheistic Hellenist Greeks enticing Jews to embrace their culture and compromise the oral and written laws of the Pharisees. These Hellenists were sometimes associated with a group known as the Saducees, although the two were not the same. The Macabees led the revolt against the Hellenists and kept straight-up "Rabbinic" Judaism in power. I haven't read the book of Macabees, as it is considered apocryphal by the Orthodox, so I'm not sure if the story differs there; I do plan to read it sometime though.
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« Reply #136 on: April 21, 2012, 12:25:46 AM »

Also, it's interesting that Nicholas uses the term "Hellenistic." Traditionally, the story of Hannukah is about the malevolent, polytheistic Hellenist Greeks enticing Jews to embrace their culture and compromise the oral and written laws of the Pharisees.
You are correct. However, greek influence crept into Judaism none the less. Also, Medieval Judaism, a millennium after Maccabees was incredibly Hellenistic.
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« Reply #137 on: April 21, 2012, 12:31:44 AM »

My question to lovesupreme is I noticed they say former Orthodox Jew so are you looking into the Orthodox christian faith?
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« Reply #138 on: April 21, 2012, 12:34:15 AM »

You are correct. However, greek influence crept into Judaism none the less. Also, Medieval Judaism, a millennium after Maccabees was incredibly Hellenistic.

Orthodox Jews believe that Greek influence crept into Judaism other the years as well. Some actually believe that Reform and Conservative Jews are the spiritual (perhaps even direct) descendents of the Hellenist Jews. They attribute Hellinization, along with intermarriage, assimilation, and atheism as the leading cause of the galut (exile) and the delay of the Messiah.

I have no doubts that Judaism changed significantly by the Medieval period, but I have never heard it described as Hellenistic until the Reform Movement branched off from Orthodoxy. I'd be interested to read more about this version of the history; do you have a book or website you'd recommend?

My response to jewish voice: I am interested in the Orthodox faith in a strictly academic sense. I am no longer religious. May I ask the same of you?
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« Reply #139 on: April 21, 2012, 12:39:21 AM »

You are correct. However, greek influence crept into Judaism none the less. Also, Medieval Judaism, a millennium after Maccabees was incredibly Hellenistic.

Orthodox Jews believe that Greek influence crept into Judaism other the years as well. Some actually believe that Reform and Conservative Jews are the spiritual (perhaps even direct) descendents of the Hellenist Jews. They attribute Hellinization, along with intermarriage, assimilation, and atheism as the leading cause of the galut (exile) and the delay of the Messiah.

I have no doubts that Judaism changed significantly by the Medieval period, but I have never heard it described as Hellenistic until the Reform Movement branched off from Orthodoxy. I'd be interested to read more about this version of the history; do you have a book or website you'd recommend?

My response to jewish voice: I am interested in the Orthodox faith in a strictly academic sense. I am no longer religious. May I ask the same of you?
I'm from a Conservative Jewish back ground and moved to Reform and kinda started to look into the Orthodox Christian faith
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« Reply #140 on: April 21, 2012, 12:54:03 AM »

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

I was always a little confused by the article on Judaism on OrthodoxWiki, which states "Judaism is a religion which has arisen after Jews have rejected and crucified the Messiah predicted by Old Testament prophets." I was always taught that Judaism came first, and Christianity was an offshoot of that. Is it a common belief among Orthodox (and perhaps non-Orthodox) Christians that the form of Judaism existent today is nothing more than a reaction to Christianity? I will not dispute this, but it certainly differs from what the Rabbis say.

I would say that whoever put that on OrthodoxWiki heavily overstates the case. But its not completely wrong either. "Judaism" as such is certainly the older religion with Christianity being an offshoot or fulfillment (depending on one's perspective) of it. However, it is a historical fact that in the 1st century Judaism was not a monolithic religion but rather one that had a number of distinct schools/sects/streams which shared certain basics (i.e., the Torah) but had differences in terms of how they interpreted that commonality as well as in what else they considered authoritative. In the centuries following the destruction of Jerusalem all those schools/sects disappered except for Pharisaic Rabbinic Judaism--and Christianity.

I'm not really qualified to argue the extent to which modern Orthodox/Pharisaic Judaism (and of course, Rabbinic Judaism has itself split into a number of different streams) has changed from 2000 years ago and to what extent those changes were reactions to Christianity or to other historical circumstances. For all I know, if a modern Orthodox rabbi was transported back in time, he could sit down with the Pharisees Christ interacted with and they'd be in complete agreement about everything. But there would be other Jews in that time period (Sadducees, Essenes, etc) with whom he certainly would not find himself in agreement on a number of points.

So Christianity definitely comes from Judaism, but it comes from the multifaceted Judaism of the first century and not from Rabbinic Judaism alone--for example, the Old Testament used by the Orthodox Church (the Septuagint), which contains books not recognized by modern Judaism was compiled by Jews several centuries before the birth of Christ. So we would definitely say that we get the Old Testament from Judaism--but we didn't get it from that particular strain of Judaism which is the direct ancestor of modern Orthodox Judaism. Or in other words, from a Christian point of view, Christianity comes from Judaism--but it doesn't come from modern Judaism which is rather a parallel stream in terms of coming down from the first century.

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« Reply #141 on: April 21, 2012, 01:03:34 AM »

Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism rejected Christianity. Christianity rejected Rabbinic Hellenistic Judaism. The early Jewish Christians decided to hold their celebrations and fasts on different days than the Rabbinic Hellenistic Jews for this reason (see Didache of the 12 Apostles). Differences grew between the two groups. More Gentiles came in. Christians and RHJ's started holding Passover/Pascha on different days. Yada, yada, yada.

I was always a little confused by the article on Judaism on OrthodoxWiki, which states "Judaism is a religion which has arisen after Jews have rejected and crucified the Messiah predicted by Old Testament prophets." I was always taught that Judaism came first, and Christianity was an offshoot of that. Is it a common belief among Orthodox (and perhaps non-Orthodox) Christians that the form of Judaism existent today is nothing more than a reaction to Christianity? I will not dispute this, but it certainly differs from what the Rabbis say.

I would say that whoever put that on OrthodoxWiki heavily overstates the case. But its not completely wrong either. "Judaism" as such is certainly the older religion with Christianity being an offshoot or fulfillment (depending on one's perspective) of it. However, it is a historical fact that in the 1st century Judaism was not a monolithic religion but rather one that had a number of distinct schools/sects/streams which shared certain basics (i.e., the Torah) but had differences in terms of how they interpreted that commonality as well as in what else they considered authoritative. In the centuries following the destruction of Jerusalem all those schools/sects disappered except for Pharisaic Rabbinic Judaism--and Christianity.

I'm not really qualified to argue the extent to which modern Orthodox/Pharisaic Judaism (and of course, Rabbinic Judaism has itself split into a number of different streams) has changed from 2000 years ago and to what extent those changes were reactions to Christianity or to other historical circumstances. For all I know, if a modern Orthodox rabbi was transported back in time, he could sit down with the Pharisees Christ interacted with and they'd be in complete agreement about everything. But there would be other Jews in that time period (Sadducees, Essenes, etc) with whom he certainly would not find himself in agreement on a number of points.

So Christianity definitely comes from Judaism, but it comes from the multifaceted Judaism of the first century and not from Rabbinic Judaism alone--for example, the Old Testament used by the Orthodox Church (the Septuagint), which contains books not recognized by modern Judaism was compiled by Jews several centuries before the birth of Christ. So we would definitely say that we get the Old Testament from Judaism--but we didn't get it from that particular strain of Judaism which is the direct ancestor of modern Orthodox Judaism. Or in other words, from a Christian point of view, Christianity comes from Judaism--but it doesn't come from modern Judaism which is rather a parallel stream in terms of coming down from the first century.

This clarifies what the OrthodoxWiki author meant. Yes, Orthodox Jews will readily admit that by the 1st century, there were different factions vying for power. They claim, however, that the surviving faction was a faction before there were factions. That is, that "Pharisees" is merely a label for Jews who have not changed their ways since the giving of the Torah at Sinai. To suggest that Orthodox Jews emerged from a later schism would be considered heretical in Orthodox circles. That said, I personally believe that to be the case (and that Judaism only further mutated over the centuries).

Incidentally, I don't think a Modern Orthodox rabbi would fit in at all with the Pharisees. His leniences (like eating kosher dairy from a cow milked by a non-Jew, or shaving his beard) would probably cast him with the other groups they regarded as heretical. Then again, the much more stringent Hassidic Jews would probably meet a similar fate.
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« Reply #142 on: April 22, 2012, 01:13:50 PM »

lovesupreme, I just wanted to respond on the issue of the Oral Law being written down.  I'm aware that Orthodox Jews say they were "forced" to write down the Oral Law, but I just find that to be a fairly lame excuse for why it was written down.  If God ordained that it was not to be written down, why would you assume He will allow it to be lost if you follow His commandment?  And once it did begin to be written down, it was increasingly written down over many centuries and more and more commentaries and such were written down, which eliminated any hint that this is an "Oral" law.  I just find their explanation for why it was written down to be greatly lacking.
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« Reply #143 on: April 30, 2012, 12:34:57 PM »

dear sir i am eastern orthodox christian in my area in northern new jersey there is a local messanic Jewish congregation that has a monthly publication called sappahires it is a bunch of articles  from its pastor / rabbi leader in the april 2012 i came across this article called
the iconoclast and it reads in english we have the word iconoclast . an iconoclast is someone who goes against the flow or breaks the rules or traditions . but the word goes back centuries. it comes from a great controversy which took place in the middle ages in the eastern orthodox church . the eastern orthodox church was covered with so called holy images - called icons but thier arose a movement that said the hallowing of icons as idolotry . they began smashing the icons they were called the breakers of icons or in greek iconoclast but all believers are called to be iconoclast that is we are not to serve honor or ackowledge any idol of man whether of secular man or of the church but it can not stop there a true believer is a iconoclast in that he or she continually smashing the idols in your life and heart are thier any idols in your life is anything your putting your trust your love your hope your attention in when it should be in god if so then it is your job to smash that idol and be a iconoclast

from message 1232
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my question is how do you answer such  slander and lies from people who do not know the whole issue on the iconoclast subject and write articles out of context to what really happen
and the fact it was the 700's not the middle ages and the early church council was the one who restored the glory of the holy icons only 100 years later
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« Reply #144 on: April 30, 2012, 12:47:01 PM »

In my experience, people who write such things don't have much interest in facts. They do have a good point about destroying the idols in our hearts, but idols and icons are different things.

If you feel compelled, you could always write a letter to the editor. Most publications publish letters from their readers, and if you write them a good, respectful, and to-the-point letter they might print it.

The Messianic Jews might also be interested in learning that ancient Jews also had icons in their synagogues. But again, usually people who write things like this don't care about facts.
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lovesupreme
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« Reply #145 on: May 02, 2012, 11:05:48 PM »

lovesupreme, I just wanted to respond on the issue of the Oral Law being written down.  I'm aware that Orthodox Jews say they were "forced" to write down the Oral Law, but I just find that to be a fairly lame excuse for why it was written down.  If God ordained that it was not to be written down, why would you assume He will allow it to be lost if you follow His commandment?  And once it did begin to be written down, it was increasingly written down over many centuries and more and more commentaries and such were written down, which eliminated any hint that this is an "Oral" law.  I just find their explanation for why it was written down to be greatly lacking.

I do too, but when I forced myself to accept the teachings of the rabbis, I didn't allow these flaws to simmer on my mind.

Why do any power holders of a religion take controversial action in response to something that god could fix (which, according to monotheism, is literally everything)? They claim there were guided by the Ruach Hakodesh, "The Holy Spirit" (yes, Jews believe in a Holy Spirit too, albeit a Unitarian one). They claim god gave them a carte blanche to come up with all sorts of rabbinical decrees:

Quote from: Deuteronomy 17:8-12
If there arises a matter too hard for you in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between plague and plague, being matters of controversy inside your gates, then shall you arise, and get to the place which HaShem [YHWH] your God shall choose. And you shall come to the priests the Levites, and to the judge who shall be in those days, and inquire. And they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment. And you shall do according to the sentence, which they of that place which HaShem [YHWH] shall choose shall declare to you. And you shall take care to do according to all that they inform you. According to the sentence of the Torah which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not deviate from the sentence which they shall declare to you, to the right hand, nor to the left. And the man who will act presumptuously, and will not listen to the priest who stands to minister there before HaShem [YHWH] your God, or to the judge, that man shall die; and you shall put away the evil from Israel.
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I am prone to bouts of sarcasm. Please forgive me if my posts have offended you.
dllwatkins
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« Reply #146 on: May 12, 2012, 08:24:55 PM »

Father James Bernstein was a co-founder of "Jews for Jesus" and gives his experience with "Messianic" Christians.  He is Jewish, converted to Christ in Protestantism, and eventually joined the Orthodox Church.  He starts speaking at around the 5:30 mark.
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« Reply #147 on: May 12, 2012, 08:37:25 PM »

Father James Bernstein was a co-founder of "Jews for Jesus" and gives his experience with "Messianic" Christians.  He is Jewish, converted to Christ in Protestantism, and eventually joined the Orthodox Church.  He starts speaking at around the 5:30 mark.
I love the avatar. Yes Fr. Bernstein is very good, I liked his Suprised By Christ book alot.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
dllwatkins
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« Reply #148 on: May 12, 2012, 09:31:38 PM »

Father James Bernstein was a co-founder of "Jews for Jesus" and gives his experience with "Messianic" Christians.  He is Jewish, converted to Christ in Protestantism, and eventually joined the Orthodox Church.  He starts speaking at around the 5:30 mark.
I love the avatar. Yes Fr. Bernstein is very good, I liked his Suprised By Christ book alot.
Thanks! It's St. David of Wales, my patron saint, and the patron of Wales, where my father is from.  I've been meaning to get his book.  I love his talks on the clips posted on youtube.
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« Reply #149 on: May 12, 2012, 11:06:18 PM »

Father James Bernstein was a co-founder of "Jews for Jesus" and gives his experience with "Messianic" Christians.  He is Jewish, converted to Christ in Protestantism, and eventually joined the Orthodox Church.  He starts speaking at around the 5:30 mark.
I love the avatar. Yes Fr. Bernstein is very good, I liked his Suprised By Christ book alot.

It is a good book. 
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