Author Topic: Is this icon canonical/ok?  (Read 1417 times)

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Offline Timon

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Is this icon canonical/ok?
« on: February 08, 2012, 01:16:41 PM »
For my user name, I picked St. Timon who is celebrated on my birthday.  A long time ago, I asked if anyone knew where I could find an icon of him.  Someone referred me to this link... http://www.redbubble.com/people/allamel/works/5313507-apostle-timon?p=mounted-print

I recently heard that some icons arent canonical or ok to use, but I dont know how to tell.  Can anyone help me out here?  I do have him hanging in my icon corner.  The one I actually bought from that site is a print that I framed, and it is actually a post card that only cost around $1, so it wont hurt my feelings of I need to take it down.  Ha!

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 01:32:22 PM »

I don't see anything "uncanonical" with it.

I think it's a beautiful icon.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 01:33:11 PM »
The icon looks "kosher"  ;) (canonical) to me.  Actually its beautiful.  Thanks for sharing that link with us.
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Offline Timon

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 01:45:53 PM »
cool. 

it does say in the artists bio that she was commissioned by her bishop to do icons for the Church.  her bio is here.. http://www.redbubble.com/people/allamel

i just wanted to double check and make sure since this is the only icon I have that didnt come from a monastery.  and its a post card. ha! i guess it wouldnt hurt to have a priest bless it?
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 02:33:33 PM »
Very beautiful. Enjoy your new icon! ;D

It would be perfectly appropriate to have it blessed by your priest. Depending on the jurisdiction, he'll either pray over it and sprinkle it with holy water, or lay it on the altar during a Liturgy. Then, he'll return it to you.

O Holy Apostle Timon, pray to God for us!
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 02:45:21 PM »
Fear not! There's always somebody who finds something wrong in it.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 02:53:59 PM »
Fear not! There's always somebody who finds something wrong in it.

Indeed!

Some purists would argue against any paper icons at all, so the fact that it's a postcard would make it uncanonical.

 ;D

Offline Monk Vasyl

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 03:12:14 PM »
Fear not! There's always somebody who finds something wrong in it.

Indeed!

Some purists would argue against any paper icons at all, so the fact that it's a postcard would make it uncanonical.

 ;D

Years ago, I remember one zealous iconographer was given a bulletin with an icon painted from New Skete, he threw is down and said, "That's NOT an icon!" and walked away. After that I read in a ROCOR publication where a priest said, "We do not worship an art form."  Look at the icon St. Seraphim prayed before and even died in front of while praying, it was very western.  Ideally, we should have properly made icons, but how many 3rd world countries are overjoyed to receive old bulletins for their icons on them?
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 03:25:40 PM »

I once read somewhere that there was this very pious staretz (esteemed older monk) who was very respected for his advice, etc.  A man who always thought of himself as being very religious came to visit him.  This man tried to have all the appropriate Orthodox accoutrement's in his home - canonical, golden icons; elaborate candle sticks; incense burners, etc.

The elderly monk invited him in to his abode where the man saw little old table against the wall.  On the wall was a wrinkled and soot darkened paper icon, on the table was a tin cup which served as an incense burner and another filled with sand for his candles.

It doesn't matter how fancy or proper the items are....it's what you do with them....and how you do it....with a clean, pure heart with earnestness and humility.
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 03:30:25 PM »
Here is the church I normally attend to. It's almost like a collection of these heretical way-too-realistic Russian icons. It's a refreshing experience to attend services in a church like that after spending too much time with netodoxy.

Offline Timon

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 03:38:18 PM »

I once read somewhere that there was this very pious staretz (esteemed older monk) who was very respected for his advice, etc.  A man who always thought of himself as being very religious came to visit him.  This man tried to have all the appropriate Orthodox accoutrement's in his home - canonical, golden icons; elaborate candle sticks; incense burners, etc.

The elderly monk invited him in to his abode where the man saw little old table against the wall.  On the wall was a wrinkled and soot darkened paper icon, on the table was a tin cup which served as an incense burner and another filled with sand for his candles.

It doesn't matter how fancy or proper the items are....it's what you do with them....and how you do it....with a clean, pure heart with earnestness and humility.


Very good to hear, and I agree with what you said. 
Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

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Offline biro

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 04:08:17 PM »
For my user name, I picked St. Timon who is celebrated on my birthday.  A long time ago, I asked if anyone knew where I could find an icon of him.  Someone referred me to this link... http://www.redbubble.com/people/allamel/works/5313507-apostle-timon?p=mounted-print

I recently heard that some icons arent canonical or ok to use, but I dont know how to tell.  Can anyone help me out here?  I do have him hanging in my icon corner.  The one I actually bought from that site is a print that I framed, and it is actually a post card that only cost around $1, so it wont hurt my feelings of I need to take it down.  Ha!



It looks fine to me.  :)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 07:36:29 PM »
Nothing at all wrong with that icon, and it's quite well-painted, too. As for print vs hand-painted, there are some hardline iconographers who regard even the use of acrylic paints as practically heretical, and who say only egg-tempera is worthy. Nonsense. Saying that is like saying that chrismation only as the means of reception into the Church is inferior to full baptism. I guess such folks don't accept that St Elizabeth the Grand Duchess is truly a saint.  ::)

We have (but one example of many) the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas, a humble mounted print, which even had a flaw in the mounting process. Yet, God has chosen to manifest His grace through this imperfect vessel. The stone that the builders rejected ...

Get your postcard icon blessed, Timon!

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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 07:50:55 PM »

I once read somewhere that there was this very pious staretz (esteemed older monk) who was very respected for his advice, etc.  A man who always thought of himself as being very religious came to visit him.  This man tried to have all the appropriate Orthodox accoutrement's in his home - canonical, golden icons; elaborate candle sticks; incense burners, etc.

The elderly monk invited him in to his abode where the man saw little old table against the wall.  On the wall was a wrinkled and soot darkened paper icon, on the table was a tin cup which served as an incense burner and another filled with sand for his candles.

It doesn't matter how fancy or proper the items are....it's what you do with them....and how you do it....with a clean, pure heart with earnestness and humility.


How humbling!
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Offline FrChris

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 07:59:57 PM »

We have (but one example of many) the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas, a humble mounted print, which even had a flaw in the mounting process. Yet, God has chosen to manifest His grace through this imperfect vessel. The stone that the builders rejected ...


Somewhere on this site is a record of an exchange between myself and another poster, where the other poster was arguing that icons needed to be created only with materials that he considered 'traditional', while I was making the point that modern materials such as acrylic paints are fine.

I am glad to read that other people here do understand that icons are not magical spells that must be created using the "correct spell components".   ::)

More than once I have read an account of a geronda not throwing away an icon that was on a church bulletin or any other material that we may discard. On account of these stories I save any bulletin I may happen to have been given.
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Offline serb1389

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 08:11:11 PM »

We have (but one example of many) the myrrh-streaming icon of St Nicholas, a humble mounted print, which even had a flaw in the mounting process. Yet, God has chosen to manifest His grace through this imperfect vessel. The stone that the builders rejected ...


Somewhere on this site is a record of an exchange between myself and another poster, where the other poster was arguing that icons needed to be created only with materials that he considered 'traditional', while I was making the point that modern materials such as acrylic paints are fine.

I am glad to read that other people here do understand that icons are not magical spells that must be created using the "correct spell components".   ::)

More than once I have read an account of a geronda not throwing away an icon that was on a church bulletin or any other material that we may discard. On account of these stories I save any bulletin I may happen to have been given.

we started not using icons on the front of our bulletin exactly for this reason.  we were tired of seeing icons in the trash or in the bathrooms. 
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 08:15:51 PM »
I, too, am not all that pleased with icons on church bulletins and the like. If they must be used, then it is of utmost importance that people are made aware by their priests or others that any such prints are burned or buried when they are to be disposed of.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 08:58:05 PM »
Here is the church I normally attend to. It's almost like a collection of these heretical way-too-realistic Russian icons. It's a refreshing experience to attend services in a church like that after spending too much time with netodoxy.

That's a beautiful little church. I really like the icons even if they are "way-too-realistic."

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 08:58:40 PM »
Here is the church I normally attend to. It's almost like a collection of these heretical way-too-realistic Russian icons. It's a refreshing experience to attend services in a church like that after spending too much time with netodoxy.

Now that's just like home. :) Although were I to be involved in the building of a new church today I would expect that we would use a traditional iconographic format - keeping in mind that there are more than one 'styles' and 'schools' which produce 'proper' iconography.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 09:01:26 PM by podkarpatska »

Offline Agabus

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2012, 10:48:29 PM »
More than once I have read an account of a geronda not throwing away an icon that was on a church bulletin or any other material that we may discard. On account of these stories I save any bulletin I may happen to have been given.
This is why I have a stack of copies of The Word even though it is of very little interest to me.
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Offline Thomas

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 12:01:19 AM »
Just as many ancient iconographers used line icons with written descriptions as guides to "write" or paint icons from. So modern iconographers often use icon prints, post cards, and paper icons to refer to as they "Write" or painticons for today.

Egg Tempera is traditional but so are the use of Encaustic methods, and more recently in the past 3 centuries the use of oil [Paints on canvas or canvas covered boards were used in many Orthodox countries. Those today who nay say Acrylic icons as unnatural fail to realize that acrylics use a polymer made from soy beans that is used as the emulsion medium in place of egg yolk---soy beans are natural thus the "non=toxic  acrylic paints.

Originally Encaustic icons were done by painting with table icons were painted directly over a raw sanded board panel.  Original Egg Tempera icons were painted over Gessoed boards. During the Western Renaissance Period Byzantine iconographers began to glue canvas onto the boards and then Gesso and sand the canvas covered boards until they were as smooth as marble and then painted with Egg Tempera on the canvas covered boards . By the 18th Century the rise of western style icons began to show up in Russia and later into Greece  painted on canvas covered boards that were only lightly gessoed, in some areas this resulted in the abandonment of the board and simply canvas mounted on stretchers came into use. In the 20th century Fotios Kontoglou encouraged the Byzantine revival of iconography based upon classic icon styles of the heighth of the Byzantine empire and the return to the  materials and methods used at that time.

The use of paper icons began to rise as the Moslem persecution of Orthodox reduced access to iconography for the common Orthodox Christian resulting in Orthodox patronizing western (read that Roman Catholic) printing houses for icon holy cards. Russia joined in publishing paper icons to help supply the Antiochian and Jerusalem Patriarchates with holy cards for the common man to call their own and soon paper holy cards were given out for feasts and in almost every icon corner.

Traditionalists and "Purists" often forget that the icon has always evolved and will likely evolve as we continue to grow as a Church.

Thomas
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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 01:23:46 AM »
That looks like a very nice icon.

Just keep in mind that a low-quality print off of an icon is as worthy of veneration as a 1,000 year old hand-painted icon from Mt. Athos :)

Offline Timon

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 01:34:03 AM »
Just as many ancient iconographers used line icons with written descriptions as guides to "write" or paint icons from. So modern iconographers often use icon prints, post cards, and paper icons to refer to as they "Write" or painticons for today.

Egg Tempera is traditional but so are the use of Encaustic methods, and more recently in the past 3 centuries the use of oil [Paints on canvas or canvas covered boards were used in many Orthodox countries. Those today who nay say Acrylic icons as unnatural fail to realize that acrylics use a polymer made from soy beans that is used as the emulsion medium in place of egg yolk---soy beans are natural thus the "non=toxic  acrylic paints.

Originally Encaustic icons were done by painting with table icons were painted directly over a raw sanded board panel.  Original Egg Tempera icons were painted over Gessoed boards. During the Western Renaissance Period Byzantine iconographers began to glue canvas onto the boards and then Gesso and sand the canvas covered boards until they were as smooth as marble and then painted with Egg Tempera on the canvas covered boards . By the 18th Century the rise of western style icons began to show up in Russia and later into Greece  painted on canvas covered boards that were only lightly gessoed, in some areas this resulted in the abandonment of the board and simply canvas mounted on stretchers came into use. In the 20th century Fotios Kontoglou encouraged the Byzantine revival of iconography based upon classic icon styles of the heighth of the Byzantine empire and the return to the  materials and methods used at that time.

The use of paper icons began to rise as the Moslem persecution of Orthodox reduced access to iconography for the common Orthodox Christian resulting in Orthodox patronizing western (read that Roman Catholic) printing houses for icon holy cards. Russia joined in publishing paper icons to help supply the Antiochian and Jerusalem Patriarchates with holy cards for the common man to call their own and soon paper holy cards were given out for feasts and in almost every icon corner.

Traditionalists and "Purists" often forget that the icon has always evolved and will likely evolve as we continue to grow as a Church.

Thomas

Very good post.  Very interesting. 

Quote
Traditionalists and "Purists" often forget that the icon has always evolved and will likely evolve as we continue to grow as a Church.

So how long before we see an "icon corner" iphone app??  :D

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

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Offline Tikhon.of.Colorado

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 01:35:57 AM »
Just as many ancient iconographers used line icons with written descriptions as guides to "write" or paint icons from. So modern iconographers often use icon prints, post cards, and paper icons to refer to as they "Write" or painticons for today.

Egg Tempera is traditional but so are the use of Encaustic methods, and more recently in the past 3 centuries the use of oil [Paints on canvas or canvas covered boards were used in many Orthodox countries. Those today who nay say Acrylic icons as unnatural fail to realize that acrylics use a polymer made from soy beans that is used as the emulsion medium in place of egg yolk---soy beans are natural thus the "non=toxic  acrylic paints.

Originally Encaustic icons were done by painting with table icons were painted directly over a raw sanded board panel.  Original Egg Tempera icons were painted over Gessoed boards. During the Western Renaissance Period Byzantine iconographers began to glue canvas onto the boards and then Gesso and sand the canvas covered boards until they were as smooth as marble and then painted with Egg Tempera on the canvas covered boards . By the 18th Century the rise of western style icons began to show up in Russia and later into Greece  painted on canvas covered boards that were only lightly gessoed, in some areas this resulted in the abandonment of the board and simply canvas mounted on stretchers came into use. In the 20th century Fotios Kontoglou encouraged the Byzantine revival of iconography based upon classic icon styles of the heighth of the Byzantine empire and the return to the  materials and methods used at that time.

The use of paper icons began to rise as the Moslem persecution of Orthodox reduced access to iconography for the common Orthodox Christian resulting in Orthodox patronizing western (read that Roman Catholic) printing houses for icon holy cards. Russia joined in publishing paper icons to help supply the Antiochian and Jerusalem Patriarchates with holy cards for the common man to call their own and soon paper holy cards were given out for feasts and in almost every icon corner.

Traditionalists and "Purists" often forget that the icon has always evolved and will likely evolve as we continue to grow as a Church.

Thomas

Very good post.  Very interesting. 

Quote
Traditionalists and "Purists" often forget that the icon has always evolved and will likely evolve as we continue to grow as a Church.

So how long before we see an "icon corner" iphone app??  :D



My bishop said that he forsees the shelves and shelves of liturgical books we have at Church to one day be put on an ipad.  What a space saver that would be!   :)

Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2012, 10:35:18 AM »
I came across this icon today.    I am assuming this is Christ, but, I have NEVER seen Him depicted in this way.




« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 10:35:50 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2012, 10:57:18 AM »
Liza, this is a proper icon of Christ as the Ancient of Days. The imagery is derived from the vision in the Book of Daniel; the scroll in Christ's hand reads: From the womb, before the morning star, I have begotten you.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2012, 11:01:12 AM »

I was hoping you would log in, because I KNEW that YOU would know the answer, LBK!


 ;D
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2012, 11:07:40 AM »
So, what about this one?  Who is this?

My Greek is non-existent.  Note to self:  LEARN GREEK!

« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:08:11 AM by LizaSymonenko »
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline Orest

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2012, 11:14:33 AM »
Here is the church I normally attend to. It's almost like a collection of these heretical way-too-realistic Russian icons. It's a refreshing experience to attend services in a church like that after spending too much time with netodoxy.
I love the music.  Thanks for the link.

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2012, 11:24:29 AM »
So, what about this one?  Who is this?

My Greek is non-existent.  Note to self:  LEARN GREEK!



Prophet Elijah. His scroll reads: “I have been very zealous for the Lord God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken You[r covenant]". It's part of verse 14 from 1 Kings 19.
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #30 on: May 09, 2012, 11:25:43 AM »

Excellent! Thanks, LBK!
Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria

Offline LBK

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #31 on: May 09, 2012, 11:35:50 AM »
No problem, my dear Liza. Happy to help.  :)
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 11:36:03 AM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Is this icon canonical/ok?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2012, 03:41:18 AM »
St. Elijah has very nice icons because he has his epic cloak on his shoulders.