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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: February 07, 2012, 06:15:42 PM »

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink




I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...). 



EDIT:  I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:47:26 PM by trevor72694 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 06:23:45 PM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 06:26:02 PM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.

I understand this, but it wasn't even offered.  I found this odd.  They distributed the host wafers into containers for two women to serve, but left the chalice on the altar.
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 06:41:49 PM »

Not Catholic, ever...and you were, so I might have no place to speak here, but this is my understanding:

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

IDK about this. The masses I've been to (yes, they were post-Vatican II masses) all used incense.


Quote
2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

I know RCCs mingle like we do. Maybe they used pink zinfandel? Tongue

Quote
3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

This used to be standard in the Middle Ages. Only recently did the laity start partaking of the chalice again.

Quote
4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

Odd. Every Mass I've ever been to, the people have stood for the Gospel.

Quote
5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I didn't think so, either...

Quote
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Servers "touch" the altar when they move the reading stand from the Epistle side to the Gospel side in the Tridentine Mass. I don't think the RCC ever had the qualms about this that we do. Also, I find the entire office of "extraordinary minister" quite superfluous. We have an office that does the same thing...they're called deacons.

Quote
7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

"And with your Spirit" is much closer to the actual Latin. The RCC recently released a new English translation of the Mass (last Advent) that corrected a lot of weird translations from the Latin.

Quote
I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).

Hope that was at least somewhat helpful...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:44:12 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 06:44:51 PM »

Not Catholic, ever...and you were, so I might have no place to speak here, but this is my understanding:

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

IDK about this. The masses I've been to (yes, they were post-Vatican II masses) all used incense.


Quote
2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

I know RCCs mingle like we do. Maybe they used pink zinfandel? Tongue

Quote
3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

This used to be standard in the Middle Ages. Only recently did the laity start partaking of the chalice again.

Quote
4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

Odd. Every Mass I've ever been to, the people have stood for the Gospel.

Quote
5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I didn't think so, either...

Quote
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Servers "touch" the altar when they move the reading stand from the Epistle side to the Gospel side in the Tridentine Mass. I don't think the RCC ever had the qualms about this that we do. Also, I find the entire office of "extraordinary minister" quite superfluous. We have an office that does the same thing...they're called deacons.

Quote
7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

"And with your Spirit" is much closer to the actual Latin. The RCC recently released a new English translation of the Mass (last Advent) that corrected a lot of weird translations from the Latin.

Quote
I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).

Hope that was at least somewhat helpful...

It was, thank you very much!!!
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 07:00:36 PM »

Cremation is not absolutely forbidden, but it is frowned upon.

However, it used to be forbidden by Church law.
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 07:26:19 PM »

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

...

I agree with you. Incense was the standard for all High Masses and Solemn Masses, but somewhere along the way some crazy people decided to ditch it. It's not necessary, but it is preferred. And should be used.

2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

Rose wine is considered acceptable for Eucharist.

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Probably because of a lack of people to distribute it. The Roman Rite never evolved a way like the Byzantine Rite for effective and easy distribution under both species. Having everyone drink the Precious Blood from the Chalice directly is difficult.

4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

WHAT?! ....

No. That's an abuse. No one was supposed to sit during the gospel reading.

5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

Used to be forbidden. Now just frowned upon - as long as you don't treat the ashes with disrespect.

6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Modern liturgical abuse. We apologize.

7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

Because we got rid of the crappy translations. It's not an Eastern thing - it's a stupid English translation thing. #$%^ing ICEL.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 07:26:57 PM by WetCatechumen » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 07:29:51 PM »

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

...

I agree with you. Incense was the standard for all High Masses and Solemn Masses, but somewhere along the way some crazy people decided to ditch it. It's not necessary, but it is preferred. And should be used.

2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

Rose wine is considered acceptable for Eucharist.

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Probably because of a lack of people to distribute it. The Roman Rite never evolved a way like the Byzantine Rite for effective and easy distribution under both species. Having everyone drink the Precious Blood from the Chalice directly is difficult.

4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

WHAT?! ....

No. That's an abuse. No one was supposed to sit during the gospel reading.

5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

Used to be forbidden. Now just frowned upon - as long as you don't treat the ashes with disrespect.

6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Modern liturgical abuse. We apologize.

7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

Because we got rid of the crappy translations. It's not an Eastern thing - it's a stupid English translation thing. #$%^ing ICEL.


Thank you so much for your answer.  This is very interesting.

I kid you not - the priest said something along the lines of "let us sit and listen attentively to the Gospel of the Lord".
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 07:30:51 PM »

Not Catholic, ever...and you were, so I might have no place to speak here, but this is my understanding:

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

IDK about this. The masses I've been to (yes, they were post-Vatican II masses) all used incense.


Quote
2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

I know RCCs mingle like we do. Maybe they used pink zinfandel? Tongue

Quote
3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

This used to be standard in the Middle Ages. Only recently did the laity start partaking of the chalice again.

Quote
4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

Odd. Every Mass I've ever been to, the people have stood for the Gospel.

Quote
5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I didn't think so, either...

Quote
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Servers "touch" the altar when they move the reading stand from the Epistle side to the Gospel side in the Tridentine Mass. I don't think the RCC ever had the qualms about this that we do. Also, I find the entire office of "extraordinary minister" quite superfluous. We have an office that does the same thing...they're called deacons.

Quote
7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

"And with your Spirit" is much closer to the actual Latin. The RCC recently released a new English translation of the Mass (last Advent) that corrected a lot of weird translations from the Latin.

Quote
I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).

Hope that was at least somewhat helpful...

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 07:32:22 PM »

I've been in a number of EO parishes of differing jurisdictions where the custom is to sit during the Epistle. None of the one's I ever attended regularly and I always find it odd for the same reason Trevor stated. Never for the Gospel however.
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 07:33:51 PM »

Some protocols may be slightly different at funerals than they are for any other type of RCC Mass. We usually did stand for the Gospel, on any normal Sunday. I'm thinking this may be the reason for the difference.
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 07:42:07 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 07:44:29 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 07:53:21 PM »

I don't like lay ministers handing out Communion, either, but you must remember that in recent years, there has been a shortage of priests and deacons in the RCC. Many parishes have had to resort to appointing laypeople to help the priest. Ideally that would only happen as a stopgap measure in an emergency. I guess if you're in a diocese where they don't have a lot of priests, that may constitute enough reason (it depends on whether the bishop approves).

I have heard the shortage has slowed and there are more people going to RCC seminary these days, but in some places of the country, they may be stuck with this lay minister thing for a while. Some parishes have deacons who go from church to church each week. That's not ideal either, but it's better than the other way.

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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 10:48:42 AM »

Just for clarification, the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion is the bishop, priest or deacon.  The lay people who distribute Holy Communion during Mass are officially called "Extraordinary" Ministers of Holy Communion.  To call them "Eucharistic Ministers" is not only grossly inaccurate, but in my *opinion*, an abuse.  I tolerate them but find it unfortunate that many parishes, especially large ones with not enough priests or deacons, have to use them.
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 11:12:32 AM »

Just for clarification, the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion is the bishop, priest or deacon.  The lay people who distribute Holy Communion during Mass are officially called "Extraordinary" Ministers of Holy Communion.  To call them "Eucharistic Ministers" is not only grossly inaccurate, but in my *opinion*, an abuse.  I tolerate them but find it unfortunate that many parishes, especially large ones with not enough priests or deacons, have to use them.

Yes, they are extraordinary ministers, but these parishes by no means have to use them. They choose to do so for the sake of convenience. I've known some Orthodox priests to stand and give communion for an hour or longer, because that's how many communicants they had.

Further, I've seen these "extraordinary" ministers used very ordinarily. In my hometown, they're overrun with Protestants. There is no Orthodox presence and only one, very small, Roman Catholic parish. I have attended Daily Mass that had no more than a dozen communicants, and extraordinary ministers were used by the priest. Granted, it's an abuse...but one that the bishops need to be stepping in and correcting.
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »

Just for clarification, the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion is the bishop, priest or deacon.  The lay people who distribute Holy Communion during Mass are officially called "Extraordinary" Ministers of Holy Communion.  To call them "Eucharistic Ministers" is not only grossly inaccurate, but in my *opinion*, an abuse.  I tolerate them but find it unfortunate that many parishes, especially large ones with not enough priests or deacons, have to use them.

Yes, they are extraordinary ministers, but these parishes by no means have to use them. They choose to do so for the sake of convenience. I've known some Orthodox priests to stand and give communion for an hour or longer, because that's how many communicants they had.

Further, I've seen these "extraordinary" ministers used very ordinarily. In my hometown, they're overrun with Protestants. There is no Orthodox presence and only one, very small, Roman Catholic parish. I have attended Daily Mass that had no more than a dozen communicants, and extraordinary ministers were used by the priest. Granted, it's an abuse...but one that the bishops need to be stepping in and correcting.

I have no argument with you in that sometimes the extraordinary ministers are used quite ordinarily.  And that's a shame and hopefully will come to an end one day---soon, I hope!

However, the parish we are members of has 3 priests.  One of them is nearly 80 and is actually "semi-retired".  One of them is, due to illness, barely able to walk and even needs physical assistance during the Mass.  The third is 50-ish, apparently strong and healthy from all appearances.

There is a Vigil Mass every Saturday evening.  Every Sunday there are 5 other Masses.  There are approx. 3500 *families* (not individuals, but *families*) in the parish.  Every Mass there that I have attended the church has been practically full.  I understand that many large parishes are in the same or a similar situation.  What would you suggest?

Personally, I would *love* it if at every Mass there were enough priests and deacons to serve Holy Communion without use of the extraordinary ministers.  In an ideal world, that would be the case.  We do not live in an ideal world.

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 01:20:26 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.

As a priest's kid, I have to clue you in on something - I hope it doesn't shake up anyone - Orthodox priests have to go to the bathroom too.

It is presumptuous to assume that a Catholic Extraordinary Minister would be unclean or disrespectful of the Real Presence.

I don't like the practice of lay distribution, but it is not an excuse for making such a statement.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 02:23:17 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.

As a priest's kid, I have to clue you in on something - I hope it doesn't shake up anyone - Orthodox priests have to go to the bathroom too.

It is presumptuous to assume that a Catholic Extraordinary Minister would be unclean or disrespectful of the Real Presence.

I don't like the practice of lay distribution, but it is not an excuse for making such a statement.

To add to it, there are actually canons about receiving communion in a "stale, lifeless" container, as many people at that time would receive in the hand and cup a small plate on which to take the Eucharist.

Of course, this also technically means that Communion should not be served on a spoon. *shrug*
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2012, 02:35:32 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 02:45:52 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.

As a priest's kid, I have to clue you in on something - I hope it doesn't shake up anyone - Orthodox priests have to go to the bathroom too.

It is presumptuous to assume that a Catholic Extraordinary Minister would be unclean or disrespectful of the Real Presence.

I don't like the practice of lay distribution, but it is not an excuse for making such a statement.

To add to it, there are actually canons about receiving communion in a "stale, lifeless" container, as many people at that time would receive in the hand and cup a small plate on which to take the Eucharist.

Of course, this also technically means that Communion should not be served on a spoon. *shrug*

Which canons, just out of curiosity? 

For some reason this clause was not clear to me: "...as many people at that time would receive in the hand and cup a small plate on which to take the Eucharist."  What did you mean by "at that time", and what did you mean by "receive in the hand and cup a small plate..."?  Sorry if I'm being dense  Sad.


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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 03:29:01 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.

You know, you may criticize the Mass all you like.  You can judge Catholics, our Church, and our dudes, er..priests ad nauseum.  But, believe it or not, there are many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses--even one or two right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. (I know, that's nothing short of incomprehensible, isn't it Shocked Shocked?) There are many lay people, priests, and bishops (and I believe even a pope!!) (maybe even a majority of them?) who are aware of our shortcomings and are trying to remedy them.  I have a request of you--please try to bear that in mind when you, as an Orthodox, tell us Catholics what we should or should not do.

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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2012, 03:43:25 PM »

I saw incense being used maybe once (Holy Thursday) in my time as a Catholic.
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 04:16:44 PM »

In my parish, they used to cense the whole front of the church prior to the Gospel reading. Certain things would be different from parish to parish. I grew up in an area that was heavily southern Italian and we ignored the impulse in other parishes to drop the older practices after Vatican II. We never got in some kind of war of words with the bishop, we just kept on doing things like incense, using the longer prayers, and so forth. If only every parish I went to afterwards had been like that.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 04:25:35 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.

You know, you may criticize the Mass all you like.  You can judge Catholics, our Church, and our dudes, er..priests ad nauseum.  But, believe it or not, there are many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses--even one or two right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. (I know, that's nothing short of incomprehensible, isn't it Shocked Shocked?) There are many lay people, priests, and bishops (and I believe even a pope!!) (maybe even a majority of them?) who are aware of our shortcomings and are trying to remedy them.  I have a request of you--please try to bear that in mind when you, as an Orthodox, tell us Catholics what we should or should not do.



I was sticking up for catholic priests.. sheesh.  I remember serving mass daily at a convent when I was a kid.  Much different than what I see in the local parish here.
Were you always Catholic J Michael or were you Orthodox at one time?
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 04:34:59 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.

You know, you may criticize the Mass all you like.  You can judge Catholics, our Church, and our dudes, er..priests ad nauseum.  But, believe it or not, there are many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses--even one or two right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. (I know, that's nothing short of incomprehensible, isn't it Shocked Shocked?) There are many lay people, priests, and bishops (and I believe even a pope!!) (maybe even a majority of them?) who are aware of our shortcomings and are trying to remedy them.  I have a request of you--please try to bear that in mind when you, as an Orthodox, tell us Catholics what we should or should not do.



I was sticking up for catholic priests.. sheesh.  I remember serving mass daily at a convent when I was a kid.  Much different than what I see in the local parish here.
Were you always Catholic J Michael or were you Orthodox at one time?

Sorry, your wording suggested otherwise.  Forgive me if I misinterpreted.

I went from (secular) Jew-->Catholic-->Orthodox-->Catholic.
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 06:20:13 PM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 
I will admit though you can see two different parishes within a parish that uses the eo and the current roman missal.  There has to be some sort of middle ground between the two.
The current missal when done correctly, with some respect given to the priest; ie, let him clean his own chalice and paten, let him commune you first, let him read the Gospel, let him preach.  I've seen catholic school masses where the kids read even the gospel and a kid gave the homily.
I know I was Greek Catholic but I lived in different areas and attended enough RC Churches to know the differences.  I went to Catholic school. 
We used to have benediction (in Latin) we used to have stations of the cross, we used to sing traditional latin hymns, we used to use the communion rail, we used to have altarboys who actually went to seminary.  We used to hear about fire and brimstone from the pulpit instead of "I saw my great aunt at the grocery store and she reminds me of mary from today's gospel" type homilies.
And the music keeps getting worse.  I can tolerate "On Eagles Wings" but some of the newer stuff I'm not even sure about.
Sorry, I've served enough Roman Catholic masses in my day to watch in horror when I visit an RC parish. 
The retired bishop here kicked out the cathedral choir for singing the creed in Latin but he would allow liturgical dancing and inter-faith prayer services where a vodoo priest-ess did her service on the altar area during that service. 
I'm not saying Orthodox liturgics are perfect either.  I'm not a liturgical cop.  But it's my position to be aware of the liturgics.  We have our share of priests that make up their own words while singing the Gospel because they don't like what is written.  There are priests that add petitions that aren't prescribed or alloted for.  So I'm not pointing fingers.  We let women read in church while the tonsured reader for the parish stands there looking like he's thinking about the basketball game.... um, no, the tonsured reader reads, I didn't invent this rule, it's like almost two thousand years old.
I can go on and on.
And this has nothing to do with "wanting services done as they are done in a monastery" I'm just speaking about making sure your choir actually sings the Only Begotten Son and putting your foot down when they refuse to do it.  Or making sure your choir says "one holy catholic and apostolic church" during the creed instead of "one holy universal and apostolic church."  Not much to ask for but doesn't quite "rightfuly divide the word of truth."
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 11:43:49 AM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 
I will admit though you can see two different parishes within a parish that uses the eo and the current roman missal.  There has to be some sort of middle ground between the two.
The current missal when done correctly, with some respect given to the priest; ie, let him clean his own chalice and paten, let him commune you first, let him read the Gospel, let him preach.  I've seen catholic school masses where the kids read even the gospel and a kid gave the homily.
I know I was Greek Catholic but I lived in different areas and attended enough RC Churches to know the differences.  I went to Catholic school. 
We used to have benediction (in Latin) we used to have stations of the cross, we used to sing traditional latin hymns, we used to use the communion rail, we used to have altarboys who actually went to seminary.  We used to hear about fire and brimstone from the pulpit instead of "I saw my great aunt at the grocery store and she reminds me of mary from today's gospel" type homilies.
And the music keeps getting worse.  I can tolerate "On Eagles Wings" but some of the newer stuff I'm not even sure about.
Sorry, I've served enough Roman Catholic masses in my day to watch in horror when I visit an RC parish. 
The retired bishop here kicked out the cathedral choir for singing the creed in Latin but he would allow liturgical dancing and inter-faith prayer services where a vodoo priest-ess did her service on the altar area during that service. 
I'm not saying Orthodox liturgics are perfect either.  I'm not a liturgical cop.  But it's my position to be aware of the liturgics.  We have our share of priests that make up their own words while singing the Gospel because they don't like what is written.  There are priests that add petitions that aren't prescribed or alloted for.  So I'm not pointing fingers.  We let women read in church while the tonsured reader for the parish stands there looking like he's thinking about the basketball game.... um, no, the tonsured reader reads, I didn't invent this rule, it's like almost two thousand years old.
I can go on and on.
And this has nothing to do with "wanting services done as they are done in a monastery" I'm just speaking about making sure your choir actually sings the Only Begotten Son and putting your foot down when they refuse to do it.  Or making sure your choir says "one holy catholic and apostolic church" during the creed instead of "one holy universal and apostolic church."  Not much to ask for but doesn't quite "rightfuly divide the word of truth."

It's nice to hear that you care, and I get that from what you've written above.  Believe it or not, the Catholic Church in America *is* changing, and "improving"--thanks be to God!  There is much that needs to change and much that is wrong.  There is, in my opinion, much more that is right and  much more that needs no changing.  I've seen it in the parish my wife and I are members of--the good, the bad, the ugly, and many improvements, and *much* that is right.

I have learned over the years that the best thing I can do when I am confronted with so-called abuses or perceived abuses that actually may not be, is.........to pray about it.  Pray that they will stop; pray for God's guidance about what, if anything, I should "do".  If the "abuse" is major, then I might talk to the priest or even write the bishop.  Only once have I felt a "need" to talk to the priest about things, years ago.  He was most gracious and listened attentively and patiently as I self-righteously, and bombastically, and pridefully listed to him all that was "wrong" in the church.  Almost all of it was "small" stuff (you know, the kind we've been advised to not sweat) that he had inherited from the former pastor.  I'd venture to say that now 99% of it has been "fixed"--and *no* thanks to me, by the way  Grin.

You know, it's quite interesting to see that many of the little so-called "abuses" have simply vanished now with the introduction of the new translation of the Roman Missal.

Besides all of that, I do still stand by what I wrote earlier about there being many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses.

By the way, I've also realized that leaving the Catholic Church was/is not the way to fix it.  Okay...nuff said.
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2012, 03:16:14 PM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 

I can deal with that.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 02:43:52 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 11:47:05 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

 Huh Huh

Forgive my denseness, but I'm not sure what the above statement is in reference to, and hence what your point is.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 03:38:37 PM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2012, 02:43:14 PM »

I don't like lay ministers handing out Communion, either, but you must remember that in recent years, there has been a shortage of priests and deacons in the RCC. Many parishes have had to resort to appointing laypeople to help the priest. Ideally that would only happen as a stopgap measure in an emergency. I guess if you're in a diocese where they don't have a lot of priests, that may constitute enough reason (it depends on whether the bishop approves).

I have heard the shortage has slowed and there are more people going to RCC seminary these days, but in some places of the country, they may be stuck with this lay minister thing for a while. Some parishes have deacons who go from church to church each week. That's not ideal either, but it's better than the other way.



It's a complicated issue.

Ultimately, laypeople distributing Holy Communion is not due to a lack of priests.  It is out of the "occupy Mass" mentality of the 1900s, and became common practice well before the shortage of priests.  If people wanted to receive under both species, injunction could have been advocated (and is already allowed in the Roman Catholic Church); this might require once extra minister to hold the Chalice, not ideal, but still better than what is now the norm.  A single priest distributing Holy Communion, whether kneeling or standing, whether the host alone or both species in a spoon, can still distribute Communion faster than the army of EMHCs you see in a typical Sunday Mass, even when saying the longer prayer in the west (Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat...) or in the east (servant of God [name]...).  There is always a long line for the Precious Blood by time all have received the Body.
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2012, 01:52:56 PM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 05:13:29 PM »

Hello trevor72694,
I think I can answer your questions I use to be Roman Catholic at one time a very long time ago.
1. (The Novus Ordo Mass- New Mass of Pope Paul VI) lessen the rituals of in the Mass in order to make the Mass more acceptable to Protestants.
2. The wine is not required to be red or pink it is only stand in as the part of the blood and water is cool to touch it is not need to be heated like you would see in Orthodox Divine Liturgies. This stands for the blood and water that pour out of Jesus Christ.                              
3. The Host has wine mix in with the Host. The Priest drinks the two he mix as you see in Mass.    
4. Gospel reading Roman Catholic are to stand maybe reason made have to do with changes in Novus Ordo do too change in Nov. 22, 2011 by Vatican revision to Mass.  
5. Roman Catholics are not to do cremation for it is a violation of the faith.  I not sure why it was done it goes against the faith. ??
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar? It is not forbidden for men or women to touch the Altar. I remember when the Latin Tridentine Mass was in full swing that Nuns would place Altar cloth on the Altar in order set up for later for the Mass.      
7.” and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit" That has to do with Nov. 22, 2011 revisions by the Vatican to the Novus Ordo Massal.      
I hope that was helpful?  
                                                                                                                          
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 05:23:26 PM by Frank J » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 07:54:14 PM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2012, 02:57:39 AM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 
I will admit though you can see two different parishes within a parish that uses the eo and the current roman missal.  There has to be some sort of middle ground between the two.
The current missal when done correctly, with some respect given to the priest; ie, let him clean his own chalice and paten, let him commune you first, let him read the Gospel, let him preach.  I've seen catholic school masses where the kids read even the gospel and a kid gave the homily.
I know I was Greek Catholic but I lived in different areas and attended enough RC Churches to know the differences.  I went to Catholic school. 
We used to have benediction (in Latin) we used to have stations of the cross, we used to sing traditional latin hymns, we used to use the communion rail, we used to have altarboys who actually went to seminary.  We used to hear about fire and brimstone from the pulpit instead of "I saw my great aunt at the grocery store and she reminds me of mary from today's gospel" type homilies.
And the music keeps getting worse.  I can tolerate "On Eagles Wings" but some of the newer stuff I'm not even sure about.
Sorry, I've served enough Roman Catholic masses in my day to watch in horror when I visit an RC parish. 
The retired bishop here kicked out the cathedral choir for singing the creed in Latin but he would allow liturgical dancing and inter-faith prayer services where a vodoo priest-ess did her service on the altar area during that service. 
I'm not saying Orthodox liturgics are perfect either.  I'm not a liturgical cop.  But it's my position to be aware of the liturgics.  We have our share of priests that make up their own words while singing the Gospel because they don't like what is written.  There are priests that add petitions that aren't prescribed or alloted for.  So I'm not pointing fingers.  We let women read in church while the tonsured reader for the parish stands there looking like he's thinking about the basketball game.... um, no, the tonsured reader reads, I didn't invent this rule, it's like almost two thousand years old.
I can go on and on.
And this has nothing to do with "wanting services done as they are done in a monastery" I'm just speaking about making sure your choir actually sings the Only Begotten Son and putting your foot down when they refuse to do it.  Or making sure your choir says "one holy catholic and apostolic church" during the creed instead of "one holy universal and apostolic church."  Not much to ask for but doesn't quite "rightfuly divide the word of truth."

It's nice to hear that you care, and I get that from what you've written above.  Believe it or not, the Catholic Church in America *is* changing, and "improving"--thanks be to God!  There is much that needs to change and much that is wrong.  There is, in my opinion, much more that is right and  much more that needs no changing.  I've seen it in the parish my wife and I are members of--the good, the bad, the ugly, and many improvements, and *much* that is right.

I have learned over the years that the best thing I can do when I am confronted with so-called abuses or perceived abuses that actually may not be, is.........to pray about it.  Pray that they will stop; pray for God's guidance about what, if anything, I should "do".  If the "abuse" is major, then I might talk to the priest or even write the bishop.  Only once have I felt a "need" to talk to the priest about things, years ago.  He was most gracious and listened attentively and patiently as I self-righteously, and bombastically, and pridefully listed to him all that was "wrong" in the church.  Almost all of it was "small" stuff (you know, the kind we've been advised to not sweat) that he had inherited from the former pastor.  I'd venture to say that now 99% of it has been "fixed"--and *no* thanks to me, by the way  Grin.

You know, it's quite interesting to see that many of the little so-called "abuses" have simply vanished now with the introduction of the new translation of the Roman Missal.

Besides all of that, I do still stand by what I wrote earlier about there being many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses.

By the way, I've also realized that leaving the Catholic Church was/is not the way to fix it.  Okay...nuff said.
These so called "abuses" have been going on for decades now, and they are continuing. I don;t see any letup in the anomalies during Catholic liturgy.  For example, at the local Catholic Church here, there was a Mass to celebrate the Chinese New Year. A dragon (or several people in a dragon costume) was snaking through the Church during the Mass, and it was announced from the altar that if possible Catholic faithful are to touch the dragon as he snakes through the Church during Mass as that will bring them "good luck." Of course there is much more good luck obtained this year, because (I think, but am not sure) that it is the Chinese year of the dragon. In the past, Catholics prayed to St. Michael the Archangel to defend us against Satan and Satan was depicted as a dragon. However, that has apparently been changed since now there is no prayer at the end of Mass to St. Michael, and Catholics are told to touch the dragon to obtain good luck.
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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2012, 03:15:32 AM »

All the practices that the questions were asked about did not exist before the year 1962. With the sole exception of the Blood only being drank by the clerics, which is a long standing practice since the late middle ages.

Most of the practices were introduced under influence from liberal protestant theological ideas.

However another partial explanation, was than some of the ideas also tended to be introduced in order to counter the practices of "low masses" . Low masses were entirely quiet masses which people occasionally fell asleep in until the silence was broken by the ringing of the communion bell. Low masses grew to be seen as causing a lot of problems by the time the 20th century arrived.
So the making of mass more "interesting" with more action, music "activie participation of the people" was considered a way of reviving the faith, yet of course combined with liberalism and heretical ideas, it tended to be a mixture of good and bad. From my perspective more bad. It tended to miss out the ascetic mystical aspect that all traditional orthodox christian is ment to have, and catholicism once had much more of.

If you thought your grandmother's mass was surprising, there's much more surprising masses than that one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2k2k3ocRuQ

And than we have the opposite here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdnOJ-LaZZQ

The wild and wooly heretical latin catholic VS. the mystical soul quenching discipline of (o)rthodox latin catholic.

It is a sad and challenging time to live in for those in communion with Rome. Though the traditional ideas are making a come back, they are rather fledgling and small in comparison to the abuses.
Not to say Orthodoxy is without it's hardships..but..at least they do have more consistency and beauty and tradition in terms of liturgy, that is the sturdy refuge for all.
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2012, 03:22:25 AM »

The change to "And with your spirit," is not necessarily "going East;" it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass.  (We're loaded with poor translations, too.)

I have a question too.  What is it that the Roman Catholic priest says when he sprinkles Holy Water on the casket as it enters the church and leaves the church, something about the baptismal commitment, which I found moving?
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2012, 04:16:14 AM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.

I don't remember Jesus offering his disciples a choice; rather:

"take, eat, this is my body..."

"drink of this, all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant..."

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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2012, 05:24:49 AM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.

I don't remember Jesus offering his disciples a choice; rather:

"take, eat, this is my body..."

"drink of this, all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant..."



A case could be made that the Holy Apostles are not comparable to the present laymen but rather to the clergy and the bishops. While I'm happy that in our tradition we receive both Body and Blood I don't think the RC tradition is that far-fetched.
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2012, 08:47:49 AM »

I believe that the RCC would say that all of its members receive the the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under either species. Perhaps this is why the need to receive from the Chalice itself is not a requirement.
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2012, 09:45:58 AM »

I believe that the RCC would say that all of its members receive the the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under either species. Perhaps this is why the need to receive from the Chalice itself is not a requirement.

That is what I have read.
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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2012, 11:23:04 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes



Gee, and here I thought that a moderator would actually live on-line, all the time!  Whatever was I thinking  Shocked Shocked  Grin Grin?

I'm chillin' "yo"  Grin!

Just out of curiosity, where did you see me write or imply *anything* to the effect of "username must never have fun"?  Chill yo-self yo Grin.
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"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2012, 11:25:35 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes



Gee, and here I thought that a moderator would actually live on-line, all the time!  Whatever was I thinking  Shocked Shocked  Grin Grin?

I'm chillin' "yo"  Grin!

Just out of curiosity, where did you see me write or imply *anything* to the effect of "username must never have fun"?  Chill yo-self yo Grin.
Hehe I was just teasing back yo!
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