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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: February 07, 2012, 06:15:42 PM »

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink




I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...). 



EDIT:  I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley

« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:47:26 PM by trevor72694 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 06:23:45 PM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.
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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 06:26:02 PM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.

I understand this, but it wasn't even offered.  I found this odd.  They distributed the host wafers into containers for two women to serve, but left the chalice on the altar.
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 06:41:49 PM »

Not Catholic, ever...and you were, so I might have no place to speak here, but this is my understanding:

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

IDK about this. The masses I've been to (yes, they were post-Vatican II masses) all used incense.


Quote
2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

I know RCCs mingle like we do. Maybe they used pink zinfandel? Tongue

Quote
3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

This used to be standard in the Middle Ages. Only recently did the laity start partaking of the chalice again.

Quote
4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

Odd. Every Mass I've ever been to, the people have stood for the Gospel.

Quote
5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I didn't think so, either...

Quote
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Servers "touch" the altar when they move the reading stand from the Epistle side to the Gospel side in the Tridentine Mass. I don't think the RCC ever had the qualms about this that we do. Also, I find the entire office of "extraordinary minister" quite superfluous. We have an office that does the same thing...they're called deacons.

Quote
7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

"And with your Spirit" is much closer to the actual Latin. The RCC recently released a new English translation of the Mass (last Advent) that corrected a lot of weird translations from the Latin.

Quote
I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).

Hope that was at least somewhat helpful...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:44:12 PM by Benjamin the Red » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 06:44:51 PM »

Not Catholic, ever...and you were, so I might have no place to speak here, but this is my understanding:

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

IDK about this. The masses I've been to (yes, they were post-Vatican II masses) all used incense.


Quote
2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

I know RCCs mingle like we do. Maybe they used pink zinfandel? Tongue

Quote
3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

This used to be standard in the Middle Ages. Only recently did the laity start partaking of the chalice again.

Quote
4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

Odd. Every Mass I've ever been to, the people have stood for the Gospel.

Quote
5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I didn't think so, either...

Quote
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Servers "touch" the altar when they move the reading stand from the Epistle side to the Gospel side in the Tridentine Mass. I don't think the RCC ever had the qualms about this that we do. Also, I find the entire office of "extraordinary minister" quite superfluous. We have an office that does the same thing...they're called deacons.

Quote
7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

"And with your Spirit" is much closer to the actual Latin. The RCC recently released a new English translation of the Mass (last Advent) that corrected a lot of weird translations from the Latin.

Quote
I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).

Hope that was at least somewhat helpful...

It was, thank you very much!!!
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 07:00:36 PM »

Cremation is not absolutely forbidden, but it is frowned upon.

However, it used to be forbidden by Church law.
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 07:26:19 PM »

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

...

I agree with you. Incense was the standard for all High Masses and Solemn Masses, but somewhere along the way some crazy people decided to ditch it. It's not necessary, but it is preferred. And should be used.

2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

Rose wine is considered acceptable for Eucharist.

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Probably because of a lack of people to distribute it. The Roman Rite never evolved a way like the Byzantine Rite for effective and easy distribution under both species. Having everyone drink the Precious Blood from the Chalice directly is difficult.

4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

WHAT?! ....

No. That's an abuse. No one was supposed to sit during the gospel reading.

5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

Used to be forbidden. Now just frowned upon - as long as you don't treat the ashes with disrespect.

6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Modern liturgical abuse. We apologize.

7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

Because we got rid of the crappy translations. It's not an Eastern thing - it's a stupid English translation thing. #$%^ing ICEL.
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 07:29:51 PM »

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

...

I agree with you. Incense was the standard for all High Masses and Solemn Masses, but somewhere along the way some crazy people decided to ditch it. It's not necessary, but it is preferred. And should be used.

2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

Rose wine is considered acceptable for Eucharist.

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Probably because of a lack of people to distribute it. The Roman Rite never evolved a way like the Byzantine Rite for effective and easy distribution under both species. Having everyone drink the Precious Blood from the Chalice directly is difficult.

4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

WHAT?! ....

No. That's an abuse. No one was supposed to sit during the gospel reading.

5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

Used to be forbidden. Now just frowned upon - as long as you don't treat the ashes with disrespect.

6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Modern liturgical abuse. We apologize.

7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

Because we got rid of the crappy translations. It's not an Eastern thing - it's a stupid English translation thing. #$%^ing ICEL.


Thank you so much for your answer.  This is very interesting.

I kid you not - the priest said something along the lines of "let us sit and listen attentively to the Gospel of the Lord".
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 07:30:51 PM »

Not Catholic, ever...and you were, so I might have no place to speak here, but this is my understanding:

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

IDK about this. The masses I've been to (yes, they were post-Vatican II masses) all used incense.


Quote
2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

I know RCCs mingle like we do. Maybe they used pink zinfandel? Tongue

Quote
3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

This used to be standard in the Middle Ages. Only recently did the laity start partaking of the chalice again.

Quote
4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

Odd. Every Mass I've ever been to, the people have stood for the Gospel.

Quote
5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I didn't think so, either...

Quote
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

Servers "touch" the altar when they move the reading stand from the Epistle side to the Gospel side in the Tridentine Mass. I don't think the RCC ever had the qualms about this that we do. Also, I find the entire office of "extraordinary minister" quite superfluous. We have an office that does the same thing...they're called deacons.

Quote
7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

"And with your Spirit" is much closer to the actual Latin. The RCC recently released a new English translation of the Mass (last Advent) that corrected a lot of weird translations from the Latin.

Quote
I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).

Hope that was at least somewhat helpful...

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 07:32:22 PM »

I've been in a number of EO parishes of differing jurisdictions where the custom is to sit during the Epistle. None of the one's I ever attended regularly and I always find it odd for the same reason Trevor stated. Never for the Gospel however.
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 07:33:51 PM »

Some protocols may be slightly different at funerals than they are for any other type of RCC Mass. We usually did stand for the Gospel, on any normal Sunday. I'm thinking this may be the reason for the difference.
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 07:42:07 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 07:44:29 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 07:53:21 PM »

I don't like lay ministers handing out Communion, either, but you must remember that in recent years, there has been a shortage of priests and deacons in the RCC. Many parishes have had to resort to appointing laypeople to help the priest. Ideally that would only happen as a stopgap measure in an emergency. I guess if you're in a diocese where they don't have a lot of priests, that may constitute enough reason (it depends on whether the bishop approves).

I have heard the shortage has slowed and there are more people going to RCC seminary these days, but in some places of the country, they may be stuck with this lay minister thing for a while. Some parishes have deacons who go from church to church each week. That's not ideal either, but it's better than the other way.

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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 10:48:42 AM »

Just for clarification, the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion is the bishop, priest or deacon.  The lay people who distribute Holy Communion during Mass are officially called "Extraordinary" Ministers of Holy Communion.  To call them "Eucharistic Ministers" is not only grossly inaccurate, but in my *opinion*, an abuse.  I tolerate them but find it unfortunate that many parishes, especially large ones with not enough priests or deacons, have to use them.
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 11:12:32 AM »

Just for clarification, the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion is the bishop, priest or deacon.  The lay people who distribute Holy Communion during Mass are officially called "Extraordinary" Ministers of Holy Communion.  To call them "Eucharistic Ministers" is not only grossly inaccurate, but in my *opinion*, an abuse.  I tolerate them but find it unfortunate that many parishes, especially large ones with not enough priests or deacons, have to use them.

Yes, they are extraordinary ministers, but these parishes by no means have to use them. They choose to do so for the sake of convenience. I've known some Orthodox priests to stand and give communion for an hour or longer, because that's how many communicants they had.

Further, I've seen these "extraordinary" ministers used very ordinarily. In my hometown, they're overrun with Protestants. There is no Orthodox presence and only one, very small, Roman Catholic parish. I have attended Daily Mass that had no more than a dozen communicants, and extraordinary ministers were used by the priest. Granted, it's an abuse...but one that the bishops need to be stepping in and correcting.
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« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 12:08:26 PM »

Just for clarification, the Ordinary Minister of Holy Communion is the bishop, priest or deacon.  The lay people who distribute Holy Communion during Mass are officially called "Extraordinary" Ministers of Holy Communion.  To call them "Eucharistic Ministers" is not only grossly inaccurate, but in my *opinion*, an abuse.  I tolerate them but find it unfortunate that many parishes, especially large ones with not enough priests or deacons, have to use them.

Yes, they are extraordinary ministers, but these parishes by no means have to use them. They choose to do so for the sake of convenience. I've known some Orthodox priests to stand and give communion for an hour or longer, because that's how many communicants they had.

Further, I've seen these "extraordinary" ministers used very ordinarily. In my hometown, they're overrun with Protestants. There is no Orthodox presence and only one, very small, Roman Catholic parish. I have attended Daily Mass that had no more than a dozen communicants, and extraordinary ministers were used by the priest. Granted, it's an abuse...but one that the bishops need to be stepping in and correcting.

I have no argument with you in that sometimes the extraordinary ministers are used quite ordinarily.  And that's a shame and hopefully will come to an end one day---soon, I hope!

However, the parish we are members of has 3 priests.  One of them is nearly 80 and is actually "semi-retired".  One of them is, due to illness, barely able to walk and even needs physical assistance during the Mass.  The third is 50-ish, apparently strong and healthy from all appearances.

There is a Vigil Mass every Saturday evening.  Every Sunday there are 5 other Masses.  There are approx. 3500 *families* (not individuals, but *families*) in the parish.  Every Mass there that I have attended the church has been practically full.  I understand that many large parishes are in the same or a similar situation.  What would you suggest?

Personally, I would *love* it if at every Mass there were enough priests and deacons to serve Holy Communion without use of the extraordinary ministers.  In an ideal world, that would be the case.  We do not live in an ideal world.

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« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 01:20:26 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.

As a priest's kid, I have to clue you in on something - I hope it doesn't shake up anyone - Orthodox priests have to go to the bathroom too.

It is presumptuous to assume that a Catholic Extraordinary Minister would be unclean or disrespectful of the Real Presence.

I don't like the practice of lay distribution, but it is not an excuse for making such a statement.
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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 02:23:17 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.

As a priest's kid, I have to clue you in on something - I hope it doesn't shake up anyone - Orthodox priests have to go to the bathroom too.

It is presumptuous to assume that a Catholic Extraordinary Minister would be unclean or disrespectful of the Real Presence.

I don't like the practice of lay distribution, but it is not an excuse for making such a statement.

To add to it, there are actually canons about receiving communion in a "stale, lifeless" container, as many people at that time would receive in the hand and cup a small plate on which to take the Eucharist.

Of course, this also technically means that Communion should not be served on a spoon. *shrug*
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« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2012, 02:35:32 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.
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« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 02:45:52 PM »

I don't think that the Eucharistic ministers (EM) are ordained clerics, akin to an Orthodox deacon. The RC church does have ordained deacons who are akin to Orthodox deacons. Although the analogy is not quite correct, the EM's are probably more like a sub-deacon.

Correct. Extraordinary Ministers aren't ordained. Even more reason for them to never touch the Gifts. I'm aware that they have deacons. My point is that historically, it is the responsibility of the deacon to distribute the Gifts, among other things.

Laity used to receive in the hand, which the RCC allows again now. I wouldn't want to receive in the hand personally, but it's historical...I can live with that. However, for laity to distribute the Gifts? Perhaps I should be quiet, but I find this completely unacceptable.

I agree.  I also find it horribly offal that they touch the body of Christ with their bare hands.  They could get residue on their hands and then go on with normal activities, like going to the bathroom.

I find the whole idea of laity distributing communion very objectable.

As a priest's kid, I have to clue you in on something - I hope it doesn't shake up anyone - Orthodox priests have to go to the bathroom too.

It is presumptuous to assume that a Catholic Extraordinary Minister would be unclean or disrespectful of the Real Presence.

I don't like the practice of lay distribution, but it is not an excuse for making such a statement.

To add to it, there are actually canons about receiving communion in a "stale, lifeless" container, as many people at that time would receive in the hand and cup a small plate on which to take the Eucharist.

Of course, this also technically means that Communion should not be served on a spoon. *shrug*

Which canons, just out of curiosity? 

For some reason this clause was not clear to me: "...as many people at that time would receive in the hand and cup a small plate on which to take the Eucharist."  What did you mean by "at that time", and what did you mean by "receive in the hand and cup a small plate..."?  Sorry if I'm being dense  Sad.


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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 03:29:01 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.

You know, you may criticize the Mass all you like.  You can judge Catholics, our Church, and our dudes, er..priests ad nauseum.  But, believe it or not, there are many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses--even one or two right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. (I know, that's nothing short of incomprehensible, isn't it Shocked Shocked?) There are many lay people, priests, and bishops (and I believe even a pope!!) (maybe even a majority of them?) who are aware of our shortcomings and are trying to remedy them.  I have a request of you--please try to bear that in mind when you, as an Orthodox, tell us Catholics what we should or should not do.

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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2012, 03:43:25 PM »

I saw incense being used maybe once (Holy Thursday) in my time as a Catholic.
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2012, 04:16:44 PM »

In my parish, they used to cense the whole front of the church prior to the Gospel reading. Certain things would be different from parish to parish. I grew up in an area that was heavily southern Italian and we ignored the impulse in other parishes to drop the older practices after Vatican II. We never got in some kind of war of words with the bishop, we just kept on doing things like incense, using the longer prayers, and so forth. If only every parish I went to afterwards had been like that.  Wink
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2012, 04:25:35 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.

You know, you may criticize the Mass all you like.  You can judge Catholics, our Church, and our dudes, er..priests ad nauseum.  But, believe it or not, there are many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses--even one or two right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. (I know, that's nothing short of incomprehensible, isn't it Shocked Shocked?) There are many lay people, priests, and bishops (and I believe even a pope!!) (maybe even a majority of them?) who are aware of our shortcomings and are trying to remedy them.  I have a request of you--please try to bear that in mind when you, as an Orthodox, tell us Catholics what we should or should not do.



I was sticking up for catholic priests.. sheesh.  I remember serving mass daily at a convent when I was a kid.  Much different than what I see in the local parish here.
Were you always Catholic J Michael or were you Orthodox at one time?
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 04:34:59 PM »

I've seen Two priests distribute communion (even with our longer prayer) to around 1000 people quicker than watching 4 women and a priest give out wafers and wine with the "body of Christ" prayer only and have that take longer.
Using extra people to hand out communion is just and excuse to get to your post-mass schedule.

People used to come to the priest and me at their own parents funerals and say real quietly "can you two sing this as fast as possible we don't feel like standing in church forever, cut out parts if you have to."  Sometimes adding "and none of that ukrainian, mom loved it and spoke it but if you use English it'll make it quicker"
Needless to say....... we never cut anything out and I still use Ukrainian and English no matter what.  

I don't know what the hurry is, I mean the Roman Catholic church that makes the post-funeral meals for everyone in the area does have good food but does that mean food is worth more than praying for your dead mother?

And by long, we're only talking 1 tops funeral service.  

Anyone will do anything to make church shorter, and some people will do anything to make it longer.

No incense? They usually use it at the end of mass and cense the four points of the coffin.
sitting for the gospel? Who knows.
And with your spirit is more akin to "et cum spirtitutuo"
Cremation?  How big was her life insurance policy?  cremation is more costly these days but for sure cheaper than embalming and a casket.  Funeral directors deserved to get paid too.  Perhaps cremation was the most affordable those making the decisions about her body had.
in my area cremations is about 3500 bare minimum---- casket and embalming bare min. is about 9000.

Here is my beef with the  whole lay handing out communion;
The priest swears off sex for the rest of his life
The priest goes to school to be a priest
The priest ministers the flock

And at a mass he's left with being the dude that gets to
start and end mass
start the public confession (I confess to almighty..)
Reading the Gospel
Saying the words of Consecration
Ending Mass

Lay people read the epistle and ot reading, lay people moan and screech the responsorial psalm
lay people read the gospel, I have seen this done
lay people give the homily, I have seen this done
Lay people set the altar for the communion rite
lay people communion themselves off the altar (which wrong, they're supposed to be communed by the priest first)
lay people perform the ablutions, in modernspeak they clean the chalick and paten post communion

Pretty much why should the priest even show up in some cases?
Sad really, the priest's role in the mass has been really shortened.  Fix your mass folks.

You know, you may criticize the Mass all you like.  You can judge Catholics, our Church, and our dudes, er..priests ad nauseum.  But, believe it or not, there are many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses--even one or two right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. (I know, that's nothing short of incomprehensible, isn't it Shocked Shocked?) There are many lay people, priests, and bishops (and I believe even a pope!!) (maybe even a majority of them?) who are aware of our shortcomings and are trying to remedy them.  I have a request of you--please try to bear that in mind when you, as an Orthodox, tell us Catholics what we should or should not do.



I was sticking up for catholic priests.. sheesh.  I remember serving mass daily at a convent when I was a kid.  Much different than what I see in the local parish here.
Were you always Catholic J Michael or were you Orthodox at one time?

Sorry, your wording suggested otherwise.  Forgive me if I misinterpreted.

I went from (secular) Jew-->Catholic-->Orthodox-->Catholic.
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 06:20:13 PM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 
I will admit though you can see two different parishes within a parish that uses the eo and the current roman missal.  There has to be some sort of middle ground between the two.
The current missal when done correctly, with some respect given to the priest; ie, let him clean his own chalice and paten, let him commune you first, let him read the Gospel, let him preach.  I've seen catholic school masses where the kids read even the gospel and a kid gave the homily.
I know I was Greek Catholic but I lived in different areas and attended enough RC Churches to know the differences.  I went to Catholic school. 
We used to have benediction (in Latin) we used to have stations of the cross, we used to sing traditional latin hymns, we used to use the communion rail, we used to have altarboys who actually went to seminary.  We used to hear about fire and brimstone from the pulpit instead of "I saw my great aunt at the grocery store and she reminds me of mary from today's gospel" type homilies.
And the music keeps getting worse.  I can tolerate "On Eagles Wings" but some of the newer stuff I'm not even sure about.
Sorry, I've served enough Roman Catholic masses in my day to watch in horror when I visit an RC parish. 
The retired bishop here kicked out the cathedral choir for singing the creed in Latin but he would allow liturgical dancing and inter-faith prayer services where a vodoo priest-ess did her service on the altar area during that service. 
I'm not saying Orthodox liturgics are perfect either.  I'm not a liturgical cop.  But it's my position to be aware of the liturgics.  We have our share of priests that make up their own words while singing the Gospel because they don't like what is written.  There are priests that add petitions that aren't prescribed or alloted for.  So I'm not pointing fingers.  We let women read in church while the tonsured reader for the parish stands there looking like he's thinking about the basketball game.... um, no, the tonsured reader reads, I didn't invent this rule, it's like almost two thousand years old.
I can go on and on.
And this has nothing to do with "wanting services done as they are done in a monastery" I'm just speaking about making sure your choir actually sings the Only Begotten Son and putting your foot down when they refuse to do it.  Or making sure your choir says "one holy catholic and apostolic church" during the creed instead of "one holy universal and apostolic church."  Not much to ask for but doesn't quite "rightfuly divide the word of truth."
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2012, 11:43:49 AM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 
I will admit though you can see two different parishes within a parish that uses the eo and the current roman missal.  There has to be some sort of middle ground between the two.
The current missal when done correctly, with some respect given to the priest; ie, let him clean his own chalice and paten, let him commune you first, let him read the Gospel, let him preach.  I've seen catholic school masses where the kids read even the gospel and a kid gave the homily.
I know I was Greek Catholic but I lived in different areas and attended enough RC Churches to know the differences.  I went to Catholic school. 
We used to have benediction (in Latin) we used to have stations of the cross, we used to sing traditional latin hymns, we used to use the communion rail, we used to have altarboys who actually went to seminary.  We used to hear about fire and brimstone from the pulpit instead of "I saw my great aunt at the grocery store and she reminds me of mary from today's gospel" type homilies.
And the music keeps getting worse.  I can tolerate "On Eagles Wings" but some of the newer stuff I'm not even sure about.
Sorry, I've served enough Roman Catholic masses in my day to watch in horror when I visit an RC parish. 
The retired bishop here kicked out the cathedral choir for singing the creed in Latin but he would allow liturgical dancing and inter-faith prayer services where a vodoo priest-ess did her service on the altar area during that service. 
I'm not saying Orthodox liturgics are perfect either.  I'm not a liturgical cop.  But it's my position to be aware of the liturgics.  We have our share of priests that make up their own words while singing the Gospel because they don't like what is written.  There are priests that add petitions that aren't prescribed or alloted for.  So I'm not pointing fingers.  We let women read in church while the tonsured reader for the parish stands there looking like he's thinking about the basketball game.... um, no, the tonsured reader reads, I didn't invent this rule, it's like almost two thousand years old.
I can go on and on.
And this has nothing to do with "wanting services done as they are done in a monastery" I'm just speaking about making sure your choir actually sings the Only Begotten Son and putting your foot down when they refuse to do it.  Or making sure your choir says "one holy catholic and apostolic church" during the creed instead of "one holy universal and apostolic church."  Not much to ask for but doesn't quite "rightfuly divide the word of truth."

It's nice to hear that you care, and I get that from what you've written above.  Believe it or not, the Catholic Church in America *is* changing, and "improving"--thanks be to God!  There is much that needs to change and much that is wrong.  There is, in my opinion, much more that is right and  much more that needs no changing.  I've seen it in the parish my wife and I are members of--the good, the bad, the ugly, and many improvements, and *much* that is right.

I have learned over the years that the best thing I can do when I am confronted with so-called abuses or perceived abuses that actually may not be, is.........to pray about it.  Pray that they will stop; pray for God's guidance about what, if anything, I should "do".  If the "abuse" is major, then I might talk to the priest or even write the bishop.  Only once have I felt a "need" to talk to the priest about things, years ago.  He was most gracious and listened attentively and patiently as I self-righteously, and bombastically, and pridefully listed to him all that was "wrong" in the church.  Almost all of it was "small" stuff (you know, the kind we've been advised to not sweat) that he had inherited from the former pastor.  I'd venture to say that now 99% of it has been "fixed"--and *no* thanks to me, by the way  Grin.

You know, it's quite interesting to see that many of the little so-called "abuses" have simply vanished now with the introduction of the new translation of the Roman Missal.

Besides all of that, I do still stand by what I wrote earlier about there being many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses.

By the way, I've also realized that leaving the Catholic Church was/is not the way to fix it.  Okay...nuff said.
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2012, 03:16:14 PM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 

I can deal with that.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2012, 02:43:52 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2012, 11:47:05 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

 Huh Huh

Forgive my denseness, but I'm not sure what the above statement is in reference to, and hence what your point is.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2012, 03:38:37 PM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious
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« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2012, 02:43:14 PM »

I don't like lay ministers handing out Communion, either, but you must remember that in recent years, there has been a shortage of priests and deacons in the RCC. Many parishes have had to resort to appointing laypeople to help the priest. Ideally that would only happen as a stopgap measure in an emergency. I guess if you're in a diocese where they don't have a lot of priests, that may constitute enough reason (it depends on whether the bishop approves).

I have heard the shortage has slowed and there are more people going to RCC seminary these days, but in some places of the country, they may be stuck with this lay minister thing for a while. Some parishes have deacons who go from church to church each week. That's not ideal either, but it's better than the other way.



It's a complicated issue.

Ultimately, laypeople distributing Holy Communion is not due to a lack of priests.  It is out of the "occupy Mass" mentality of the 1900s, and became common practice well before the shortage of priests.  If people wanted to receive under both species, injunction could have been advocated (and is already allowed in the Roman Catholic Church); this might require once extra minister to hold the Chalice, not ideal, but still better than what is now the norm.  A single priest distributing Holy Communion, whether kneeling or standing, whether the host alone or both species in a spoon, can still distribute Communion faster than the army of EMHCs you see in a typical Sunday Mass, even when saying the longer prayer in the west (Corpus Domini nostri Jesu Christi custodiat...) or in the east (servant of God [name]...).  There is always a long line for the Precious Blood by time all have received the Body.
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« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2012, 01:52:56 PM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2012, 05:13:29 PM »

Hello trevor72694,
I think I can answer your questions I use to be Roman Catholic at one time a very long time ago.
1. (The Novus Ordo Mass- New Mass of Pope Paul VI) lessen the rituals of in the Mass in order to make the Mass more acceptable to Protestants.
2. The wine is not required to be red or pink it is only stand in as the part of the blood and water is cool to touch it is not need to be heated like you would see in Orthodox Divine Liturgies. This stands for the blood and water that pour out of Jesus Christ.                              
3. The Host has wine mix in with the Host. The Priest drinks the two he mix as you see in Mass.    
4. Gospel reading Roman Catholic are to stand maybe reason made have to do with changes in Novus Ordo do too change in Nov. 22, 2011 by Vatican revision to Mass.  
5. Roman Catholics are not to do cremation for it is a violation of the faith.  I not sure why it was done it goes against the faith. ??
6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar? It is not forbidden for men or women to touch the Altar. I remember when the Latin Tridentine Mass was in full swing that Nuns would place Altar cloth on the Altar in order set up for later for the Mass.      
7.” and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit" That has to do with Nov. 22, 2011 revisions by the Vatican to the Novus Ordo Massal.      
I hope that was helpful?  
                                                                                                                          
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2012, 07:54:14 PM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2012, 02:57:39 AM »

The reason I am critical about RC mass and abuses seen is because, well, I actually care.  I'm not shouting bring back the 1962 missal in every parish.  I'm shouting "use the one you have correctly" card. 
I will admit though you can see two different parishes within a parish that uses the eo and the current roman missal.  There has to be some sort of middle ground between the two.
The current missal when done correctly, with some respect given to the priest; ie, let him clean his own chalice and paten, let him commune you first, let him read the Gospel, let him preach.  I've seen catholic school masses where the kids read even the gospel and a kid gave the homily.
I know I was Greek Catholic but I lived in different areas and attended enough RC Churches to know the differences.  I went to Catholic school. 
We used to have benediction (in Latin) we used to have stations of the cross, we used to sing traditional latin hymns, we used to use the communion rail, we used to have altarboys who actually went to seminary.  We used to hear about fire and brimstone from the pulpit instead of "I saw my great aunt at the grocery store and she reminds me of mary from today's gospel" type homilies.
And the music keeps getting worse.  I can tolerate "On Eagles Wings" but some of the newer stuff I'm not even sure about.
Sorry, I've served enough Roman Catholic masses in my day to watch in horror when I visit an RC parish. 
The retired bishop here kicked out the cathedral choir for singing the creed in Latin but he would allow liturgical dancing and inter-faith prayer services where a vodoo priest-ess did her service on the altar area during that service. 
I'm not saying Orthodox liturgics are perfect either.  I'm not a liturgical cop.  But it's my position to be aware of the liturgics.  We have our share of priests that make up their own words while singing the Gospel because they don't like what is written.  There are priests that add petitions that aren't prescribed or alloted for.  So I'm not pointing fingers.  We let women read in church while the tonsured reader for the parish stands there looking like he's thinking about the basketball game.... um, no, the tonsured reader reads, I didn't invent this rule, it's like almost two thousand years old.
I can go on and on.
And this has nothing to do with "wanting services done as they are done in a monastery" I'm just speaking about making sure your choir actually sings the Only Begotten Son and putting your foot down when they refuse to do it.  Or making sure your choir says "one holy catholic and apostolic church" during the creed instead of "one holy universal and apostolic church."  Not much to ask for but doesn't quite "rightfuly divide the word of truth."

It's nice to hear that you care, and I get that from what you've written above.  Believe it or not, the Catholic Church in America *is* changing, and "improving"--thanks be to God!  There is much that needs to change and much that is wrong.  There is, in my opinion, much more that is right and  much more that needs no changing.  I've seen it in the parish my wife and I are members of--the good, the bad, the ugly, and many improvements, and *much* that is right.

I have learned over the years that the best thing I can do when I am confronted with so-called abuses or perceived abuses that actually may not be, is.........to pray about it.  Pray that they will stop; pray for God's guidance about what, if anything, I should "do".  If the "abuse" is major, then I might talk to the priest or even write the bishop.  Only once have I felt a "need" to talk to the priest about things, years ago.  He was most gracious and listened attentively and patiently as I self-righteously, and bombastically, and pridefully listed to him all that was "wrong" in the church.  Almost all of it was "small" stuff (you know, the kind we've been advised to not sweat) that he had inherited from the former pastor.  I'd venture to say that now 99% of it has been "fixed"--and *no* thanks to me, by the way  Grin.

You know, it's quite interesting to see that many of the little so-called "abuses" have simply vanished now with the introduction of the new translation of the Roman Missal.

Besides all of that, I do still stand by what I wrote earlier about there being many, many, **many** places in the world of about 1 billion Catholics where things are actually done properly and with few if any abuses.

By the way, I've also realized that leaving the Catholic Church was/is not the way to fix it.  Okay...nuff said.
These so called "abuses" have been going on for decades now, and they are continuing. I don;t see any letup in the anomalies during Catholic liturgy.  For example, at the local Catholic Church here, there was a Mass to celebrate the Chinese New Year. A dragon (or several people in a dragon costume) was snaking through the Church during the Mass, and it was announced from the altar that if possible Catholic faithful are to touch the dragon as he snakes through the Church during Mass as that will bring them "good luck." Of course there is much more good luck obtained this year, because (I think, but am not sure) that it is the Chinese year of the dragon. In the past, Catholics prayed to St. Michael the Archangel to defend us against Satan and Satan was depicted as a dragon. However, that has apparently been changed since now there is no prayer at the end of Mass to St. Michael, and Catholics are told to touch the dragon to obtain good luck.
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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2012, 03:15:32 AM »

All the practices that the questions were asked about did not exist before the year 1962. With the sole exception of the Blood only being drank by the clerics, which is a long standing practice since the late middle ages.

Most of the practices were introduced under influence from liberal protestant theological ideas.

However another partial explanation, was than some of the ideas also tended to be introduced in order to counter the practices of "low masses" . Low masses were entirely quiet masses which people occasionally fell asleep in until the silence was broken by the ringing of the communion bell. Low masses grew to be seen as causing a lot of problems by the time the 20th century arrived.
So the making of mass more "interesting" with more action, music "activie participation of the people" was considered a way of reviving the faith, yet of course combined with liberalism and heretical ideas, it tended to be a mixture of good and bad. From my perspective more bad. It tended to miss out the ascetic mystical aspect that all traditional orthodox christian is ment to have, and catholicism once had much more of.

If you thought your grandmother's mass was surprising, there's much more surprising masses than that one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2k2k3ocRuQ

And than we have the opposite here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdnOJ-LaZZQ

The wild and wooly heretical latin catholic VS. the mystical soul quenching discipline of (o)rthodox latin catholic.

It is a sad and challenging time to live in for those in communion with Rome. Though the traditional ideas are making a come back, they are rather fledgling and small in comparison to the abuses.
Not to say Orthodoxy is without it's hardships..but..at least they do have more consistency and beauty and tradition in terms of liturgy, that is the sturdy refuge for all.
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2012, 03:22:25 AM »

The change to "And with your spirit," is not necessarily "going East;" it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass.  (We're loaded with poor translations, too.)

I have a question too.  What is it that the Roman Catholic priest says when he sprinkles Holy Water on the casket as it enters the church and leaves the church, something about the baptismal commitment, which I found moving?
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« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2012, 04:16:14 AM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.

I don't remember Jesus offering his disciples a choice; rather:

"take, eat, this is my body..."

"drink of this, all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant..."

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« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2012, 05:24:49 AM »

3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

Out of personal choice? In Finnish RC diocese faithful are allowed to partake the wine but many seem to receive only the host out of personal choice.

I don't remember Jesus offering his disciples a choice; rather:

"take, eat, this is my body..."

"drink of this, all of you, for this is my blood of the new covenant..."



A case could be made that the Holy Apostles are not comparable to the present laymen but rather to the clergy and the bishops. While I'm happy that in our tradition we receive both Body and Blood I don't think the RC tradition is that far-fetched.
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« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2012, 08:47:49 AM »

I believe that the RCC would say that all of its members receive the the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under either species. Perhaps this is why the need to receive from the Chalice itself is not a requirement.
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« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2012, 09:45:58 AM »

I believe that the RCC would say that all of its members receive the the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under either species. Perhaps this is why the need to receive from the Chalice itself is not a requirement.

That is what I have read.
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« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2012, 11:23:04 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes



Gee, and here I thought that a moderator would actually live on-line, all the time!  Whatever was I thinking  Shocked Shocked  Grin Grin?

I'm chillin' "yo"  Grin!

Just out of curiosity, where did you see me write or imply *anything* to the effect of "username must never have fun"?  Chill yo-self yo Grin.
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« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2012, 11:25:35 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes



Gee, and here I thought that a moderator would actually live on-line, all the time!  Whatever was I thinking  Shocked Shocked  Grin Grin?

I'm chillin' "yo"  Grin!

Just out of curiosity, where did you see me write or imply *anything* to the effect of "username must never have fun"?  Chill yo-self yo Grin.
Hehe I was just teasing back yo!
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« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2012, 11:29:58 AM »

I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic.

How expert are you?

Just curious

Interesting that he hasn't replied to either of our questions......yet.  What say you, username?

Interesting that I have obligations off-line chill yo!

Can I just have fun sometimes



Gee, and here I thought that a moderator would actually live on-line, all the time!  Whatever was I thinking  Shocked Shocked  Grin Grin?

I'm chillin' "yo"  Grin!

Just out of curiosity, where did you see me write or imply *anything* to the effect of "username must never have fun"?  Chill yo-self yo Grin.
Hehe I was just teasing back yo!

Yokeedokee yo  Grin!
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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2012, 12:13:39 PM »

So, username, now that you seem to be back posting, back to what Mary and I have asked: What were you referring to when you wrote, "I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic."  And how much of an expert on the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are you?
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« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2012, 12:16:05 PM »

So, username, now that you seem to be back posting, back to what Mary and I have asked: What were you referring to when you wrote, "I'm not the moderator of the Orthodox-Catholic Discussion forum by hap-chance.  My name wasn't "pulled out of a hat."  It's because I have a pretty good grasp on things Orthodox and things Roman Catholic/Greek Catholic."  And how much of an expert on the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are you?


I grew up Greek Catholic and since we moved around I attended Roman Catholic churches and schools as well.  My other half of the family is Orthodox.  So I've grown up around all three and am very familiar with all of them.  That's all, I mean I do know how to read and have served in all three forever.  I may have even studied one of those in a formal setting once.
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« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2012, 01:03:57 PM »

I believe that the RCC would say that all of its members receive the the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity under either species. Perhaps this is why the need to receive from the Chalice itself is not a requirement.

Correct. 

It is true, too, that many parishes, such as the one where my wife and I are members, distribute under both species at virtually every Mass.
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« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2012, 11:10:15 PM »

Actually, it isn't always that easy to get an answer. See for example:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42259.msg697897.html#msg697897
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« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2012, 11:11:40 PM »

The change to "And with your spirit," is not necessarily "going East;" it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass. 

I believe it is actually a direct translation from the Novus Ordo Latin Mass.
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« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2012, 11:26:51 AM »

The change to "And with your spirit," is not necessarily "going East;" it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass.

I believe it is actually a direct translation from the Novus Ordo Latin Mass.


During the time leading up to the new translation, Catholic media outlets often cited the move as a "return to the original Latin."  I found the phrase to be very misleading, because when Catholics [and everyone else] hear "original Latin" they undoubtedly think of the old Mass which implies the new Mass is just the old Mass translated (this is what I was taught as a kid and what my mom's parish still teaches).  But nay, it is only 1970s Latin.
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« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2012, 11:35:46 AM »

The change to "And with your spirit," is not necessarily "going East;" it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass. 

I believe it is actually a direct translation from the Novus Ordo Latin Mass.


Et cum spiritu tuo doesn't mean "and also with you."  It means " and with your spirit".  It doesn't matter what mass they translated that from it doesn't change the Latin or the English.  But they merely fixed up the English translation of the 1970 Roman Missal and I think it only took them about 10 years to do it (google translate does it in 5 seconds and is rather good with Latin). 
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« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2012, 11:49:39 AM »

The change to "And with your spirit," is not necessarily "going East;" it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass. 

I believe it is actually a direct translation from the Novus Ordo Latin Mass.


Et cum spiritu tuo doesn't mean "and also with you."  It means " and with your spirit".  It doesn't matter what mass they translated that from it doesn't change the Latin or the English.  But they merely fixed up the English translation of the 1970 Roman Missal and I think it only took them about 10 years to do it (google translate does it in 5 seconds and is rather good with Latin). 

This is just the surface of what was corrected, but is what was most talked about.  The collects, postcommunions, prefaces, and Canon(s) were drastically changed, and the Gloria, Creed, and other responses had minor changes; unfortunately the NAB readings remain.  I think Peter J was referring to the whole Mass, not just "and with your spirit."
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« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2012, 12:31:16 PM »

Not really. I just worried that some people might be misled or confused by the "it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass" comment.
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« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2012, 07:33:34 PM »

Not really. I just worried that some people might be misled or confused by the "it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass" comment.

Honestly I don't know why they just didn't stick with the 1965 Roman Missal.  And I've seen participatory low masses where the faithful say responses.  In all honesty they never struck me as much different in atmosphere as the no music or min. music modern mass just recited and no homily said.  They are both rather quick.
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« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2012, 11:59:44 AM »

Not really. I just worried that some people might be misled or confused by the "it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass" comment.

Honestly I don't know why they just didn't stick with the 1965 Roman Missal.  And I've seen participatory low masses where the faithful say responses.  In all honesty they never struck me as much different in atmosphere as the no music or min. music modern mass just recited and no homily said.  They are both rather quick.

1965 was essentially an English version of the old Mass with lay readers, right?  That's a loaded question because most will say that is what the Novus Ordo is, but you get what I mean. 

The Mass I go to when I'm visiting my mom is a High Mass with laity responding to all responses, including the prayers at the foot of the altar and "Orate fratres...", per the recommendation of Pope St. Pius X (which I thought was only regarding a few phrases, but whatever).  The Canon is still silent.
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« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2012, 12:54:08 PM »

I just came back from a funeral mass.  I have a few questions...

1. Where's the incense?  I swear, y'all used incense when I was little, even if it was so little I could barely smell it.

Trevor, the incense, in Vatican II is used in certain Holy Days of Obligation - primarily Christmas and Easter.  I don't know why they cut it back so much - probably because the Liturgy within the Mass is only a third of what it once was.  If you will notice that the Western Rite does not have an Iconostasis, and there is heavy emphasis on the alter (it is turned to face the people instead of the Crucifix) - the statues of veneration if there are any, any longer within the church (the older churches usually have statues, the newer churches often do not or have very few.) are toward the back of the church - so it isn't nearly as 'feasible' to 'Cense' the Saints of God.  So, basically, it just doesn't work as well in the format of how things are today.  I don't know if your Grandmother took you for the Christmas and Easter Masses, but this is usually where you will find incense now. . .and it's been that way since I was a little girl.  

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2. The wine used for communion wasn't red, but pink-ish.  Do they dilute the wine, and then mix it with water?

Yes, it is mixed with water.  It's not boiling like ours is, but the water is used to wash the Priests hands and then, from the same flask, added to the wine because when Jesus was speared both water and blood poured from his side.

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3.  Why did only the priest partake of the wine, and the faithful only received "host"?

When I was a little girl, I only received the host - when I asked the same question as you asked above - I was told that not only does the Priest represent Christ, the High Priest, but also stands in the gap for the people.  (So the priests received the blood on behalf of the people.) It was decided that the body and the blood cannot be separated (this is childhood teaching, so I couldn't reference this unless I did some pretty hefty research, I'm sure.) and therefore the people were actually receiving both 'species'.  I didn't like the answer. . . I think I was ten.  It seemed to me that it was man messing with what God put forth as most-sacred.  When I was a teen ager, the RC started listening to some of the complaints of the people, and this was one of them. . . so they began to offer both the host and the cup. . .then the Aids outbreak hit the scene, and they either went back to only offering the host or offering the host 'dipped' into the chalice.  Now, they do what ever . . . their parish happens to be doing.  I've seen all three depending on what church I happen to have been in.

Another thing that changed was that the RC used to fast before Holy Communion just like we do.  That changed when the change in the wine was reintroduced.  It went from receiving the host on your knees and the priest placing it on your tongue while a paten was placed under the chin to standing before the priest and having the host placed in your hands.  Then there were laymen ministers added to help with distributing the host to the parish in and outside of church (I was one of these.) So. . .every twenty years or so. . .a pretty significant change happened.  

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4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

We always stood for the Gospel Reading, and sat for the homily.  I've never experienced this - so I cannot even begin to fathom why this would happen. This sounds very protestant to me. Maybe this is the most recent change to take effect?

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5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I was raised that cremation was not an option, BUT the CULTURE of the current Roman Catholic is very different. . .please remember that the church memberships are often HUGE compared to ours.  The teaching often has many holes. . . I was a cradle Catholic. . . .and was a precocious child - always asking questions. . .that no one seemed to know the answers to.  Even when I asked the priests and the nuns. . . they just didn't know or thought it prudent not to teach.  My uncle - a priest, told me that I would have to become a priest to know the questions I was asking (interestingly enough - the same questions I've always asked. . .the same questions I've found answers to quite easily in the OC.). . .well. . . that's a shot in the foot on THAT one.  So, please understand, the Orthodox, even as an inquirer is far more educated on the history and reasoning of the church than a lot of RC.  Culturally, the Bible isn't read - or wasn't. . .that may have changed, now - I was a goof ball when I was 'caught' reading mine.  If I as a parent fail to teach my children something - then I am less likely to discipline as harshly when it's time to discipline.  It's my fault, not theirs. . . I think sometimes the Catholic Church takes (understandably) the same stance.  So while cremation may not have been allowed, it may have been permitted for the sake of the family and soul of your Grandmother.

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6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

This is another thing that came along right about the time the change in how the host was handled. . .they wanted God to be 'touchable'. . . loveable. . . there was a significant problem in 'perceived' in the RC called 'Catholic Guilt', and they wanted to help the people understand that God LOVES them, and really wasn't the hammer in the sky ready to strike at any moment.  But, I think they kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater - taking on the Love of God without holding in tact the Majesty of God.  Again, a move more toward Protestantism.  Seemed like the RC was trying to repent for its sins in a way that was a little lost. . .I know that also during this time the sins of the Holocaust came out and were acknowledged and repented for.  So, it was an incorrect. . . correction of sorts.  (Ah, we are so lost, aren't we?  It's so hard to really hit that mark. . .all of us.)

So, they wanted to make Him approachable. . .and in that the alter became 'touchable'.    

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7.  Lastly, why do you no longer respond with "and also with you", but now use "and with your spirit"?  Going East, are we?  I don't blame you Wink

Maybe! Smiley  I know that my mother called me about the current changes that are being made.  Seems the current Pope is trying very hard to work on reconciliation . . . and to keep the Eastern Catholics from feeling like they are isolated.  She seemed to think that they would all be Orthodox before the end of the century - and wanted to know what changes she would have to make.  . . I just told her. . ."You'll just get to love God even more, because you'll have all of church history, traditions and all who have gone before you to help you."  She told me that was what she was going to tell her friends.  Smiley


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I don't mean any of this to start an argument.  This is not the place for such a thread.  I am seriously curious, as I remember the Catholic Church as doing things differently (but, then again, that was 4 years ago...).  

Smiley  Just pray for us all.  Maybe Rome will come back to true communion, yet.  

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EDIT:  I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley

Smiley 
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« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2012, 01:08:51 PM »

Not really. I just worried that some people might be misled or confused by the "it is a return to the direct translation from the Latin of the (old) Trendintine Latin Mass" comment.

Honestly I don't know why they just didn't stick with the 1965 Roman Missal.  And I've seen participatory low masses where the faithful say responses.  In all honesty they never struck me as much different in atmosphere as the no music or min. music modern mass just recited and no homily said.  They are both rather quick.

1965 was essentially an English version of the old Mass with lay readers, right?  That's a loaded question because most will say that is what the Novus Ordo is, but you get what I mean. 

The Mass I go to when I'm visiting my mom is a High Mass with laity responding to all responses, including the prayers at the foot of the altar and "Orate fratres...", per the recommendation of Pope St. Pius X (which I thought was only regarding a few phrases, but whatever).  The Canon is still silent.

It was closer to the 1962 Missal just in vernacular. prayers at the foot of the altar were shortened and optional.  Still it cut out a lot of prayers. 
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« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2012, 01:10:20 PM »

A lot of Roman Catholic churches use the American Carpatho Russian Orthodox Diocese's made incense.  It's the powder for called P-8 and the brand is Gloria Incense.  Or they use this stuff called Jerusalem incense.

Just saying you can't go wrong with pure frankincense.  It doesn't make the entire congregation cough.
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« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2012, 11:17:22 PM »

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4.  Why do you sit during the Gospel reading, yet you stand for hymns?  Not to sounds standoff-ish, this just really surprised me.  I fealt like sitting in the comfy pew while the Gospel was being read was somehow disrespectful.

We always stood for the Gospel Reading, and sat for the homily.  I've never experienced this - so I cannot even begin to fathom why this would happen. This sounds very protestant to me. Maybe this is the most recent change to take effect?

No. Based on my experience, I would have to say that standing for the Gospel reading is still the norm and sitting is still very rare.

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5.  The person for whom the funeral mass was for was my grandmother.  She was cremated.  I thought that the Roman Catholics didn't do cremation?

I was raised that cremation was not an option, BUT the CULTURE of the current Roman Catholic is very different. . .please remember that the church memberships are often HUGE compared to ours.  The teaching often has many holes. . . I was a cradle Catholic. . . .and was a precocious child - always asking questions. . .that no one seemed to know the answers to.  Even when I asked the priests and the nuns. . . they just didn't know or thought it prudent not to teach.  My uncle - a priest, told me that I would have to become a priest to know the questions I was asking (interestingly enough - the same questions I've always asked. . .the same questions I've found answers to quite easily in the OC.). . .well. . . that's a shot in the foot on THAT one.  So, please understand, the Orthodox, even as an inquirer is far more educated on the history and reasoning of the church than a lot of RC.  Culturally, the Bible isn't read - or wasn't. . .that may have changed, now - I was a goof ball when I was 'caught' reading mine.  If I as a parent fail to teach my children something - then I am less likely to discipline as harshly when it's time to discipline.  It's my fault, not theirs. . . I think sometimes the Catholic Church takes (understandably) the same stance.  So while cremation may not have been allowed, it may have been permitted for the sake of the family and soul of your Grandmother.

Cremation has been allowed for the last couple decades. I recall hearing an announcement like "Cremation is now permitted, provided that the ashes are buried" (as opposed to, say, sprinkled over a lake).

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6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

This is another thing that came along right about the time the change in how the host was handled. . .they wanted God to be 'touchable'. . . loveable. . . there was a significant problem in 'perceived' in the RC called 'Catholic Guilt', and they wanted to help the people understand that God LOVES them, and really wasn't the hammer in the sky ready to strike at any moment.  

Funny you should mention that, because I just recently heard an RC priest talking about an article called You Are Worthy in the Jesuit magazine America. I forget everything that Father said about the article, but I remember he quoted the student saying “Yo, Father Rick, how come before we get Communion we say that thing about not being worthy? That really sucks. Man, so many kids today don’t feel worthy of anything. Why reinforce it right when we’re receiving Communion?”

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But, I think they kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater - taking on the Love of God without holding in tact the Majesty of God.  Again, a move more toward Protestantism.

In my experience, when RCs do something bad it's usually "a move more toward Protestantism".
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« Reply #61 on: February 20, 2012, 08:35:41 PM »


When I was a little girl, I only received the host - when I asked the same question as you asked above - I was told that not only does the Priest represent Christ, the High Priest, but also stands in the gap for the people.  (So the priests received the blood on behalf of the people.) It was decided that the body and the blood cannot be separated (this is childhood teaching, so I couldn't reference this unless I did some pretty hefty research, I'm sure.) and therefore the people were actually receiving both 'species'.  I didn't like the answer. . . I think I was ten.  It seemed to me that it was man messing with what God put forth as most-sacred.  When I was a teen ager, the RC started listening to some of the complaints of the people, and this was one of them. . . so they began to offer both the host and the cup. . .then the Aids outbreak hit the scene, and they either went back to only offering the host or offering the host 'dipped' into the chalice.  Now, they do what ever . . . their parish happens to be doing.  I've seen all three depending on what church I happen to have been in.

Another thing that changed was that the RC used to fast before Holy Communion just like we do.  That changed when the change in the wine was reintroduced.  It went from receiving the host on your knees and the priest placing it on your tongue while a paten was placed under the chin to standing before the priest and having the host placed in your hands.  Then there were laymen ministers added to help with distributing the host to the parish in and outside of church (I was one of these.) So. . .every twenty years or so. . .a pretty significant change happened.  


This practice comes around the same time as St. Thomas Aquinas.  In a nutshell, you cannot separate the Body and Blood of Christ.  When you receive the Body, you receive all of Christ, as do you when you receive the Precious Blood.  You also don't receive the flesh of Christ without His Soul and Divinity.  People in the West at one time had falsely taught that each species is different; I think this was a dead issue by the 1200s, but if it wasn't I'm sure this was part of the reason of switching to Communion under one kind.  There are theological and scriptural reasons for this as well.

The priest acts on behalf of the people at many times in the Mass, but he does not receive communion on behalf of the people, but I can see how this would be explained to children [though it shouldn't be].  A priest must receive both the Body and Blood, however.  See Summa Theologica, Third Part, Question 80, Article 12, for more info on an accepted Roman Catholic teaching regarding this.
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« Reply #62 on: February 20, 2012, 08:39:27 PM »

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6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

This is another thing that came along right about the time the change in how the host was handled. . .they wanted God to be 'touchable'. . . loveable. . . there was a significant problem in 'perceived' in the RC called 'Catholic Guilt', and they wanted to help the people understand that God LOVES them, and really wasn't the hammer in the sky ready to strike at any moment.  

Funny you should mention that, because I just recently heard an RC priest talking about an article called You Are Worthy in the Jesuit magazine America. I forget everything that Father said about the article, but I remember he quoted the student saying “Yo, Father Rick, how come before we get Communion we say that thing about not being worthy? That really sucks. Man, so many kids today don’t feel worthy of anything. Why reinforce it right when we’re receiving Communion?”


...another reason why I consider America (and most modern Jesuit literature) to be fishwrap.
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« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2012, 09:25:11 PM »

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6.  Why was it ok for a parishioner (a woman, no less) to touch the altar?  Are people allowed to just approach and touch it when preforming some liturgical function (I think she was bringing the priest the "host" (wafers))

This is another thing that came along right about the time the change in how the host was handled. . .they wanted God to be 'touchable'. . . loveable. . . there was a significant problem in 'perceived' in the RC called 'Catholic Guilt', and they wanted to help the people understand that God LOVES them, and really wasn't the hammer in the sky ready to strike at any moment.  

Funny you should mention that, because I just recently heard an RC priest talking about an article called You Are Worthy in the Jesuit magazine America. I forget everything that Father said about the article, but I remember he quoted the student saying “Yo, Father Rick, how come before we get Communion we say that thing about not being worthy? That really sucks. Man, so many kids today don’t feel worthy of anything. Why reinforce it right when we’re receiving Communion?”


...another reason why I consider America (and most modern Jesuit literature) to be fishwrap.

I just want to say that, while I may not be in agreement all the changes that have happened since Vatican II, I do think it's a credit to Catholics that they have kept the "Lord I am not worthy ..."
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« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2012, 12:28:31 AM »

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I do think it's a credit to Catholics that they have kept the "Lord I am not worthy ..."

yes, the "consiliums" original novus ordo liturgy that they tried out in 1968, with great enthusiasm from Mr. bugnini had lacked those words. So it could have been worse, whew.

Sometimes it is the key words that keep flame of integrity and potential legitimacy burning more fully in the hearts of the faithful. Those little sparks which allow a more easy return to the fullness of tradition over time.
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« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2012, 01:06:03 AM »

No. Based on my experience, I would have to say that standing for the Gospel reading is still the norm and sitting is still very rare.

I will agree with you. All of the Catholic masses that I've ever been to, everybody stood during the reading of the Gospel.
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« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2012, 01:10:55 AM »

1965 was essentially an English version of the old Mass with lay readers, right?  That's a loaded question because most will say that is what the Novus Ordo is, but you get what I mean. 

My stepmother suggested that the Novus Ordo is just the same mass with more participation.

I don't understand why the Catholic Church couldn't just stick with the old form and simply have it in the vernacular. I was told this is what was done right after Vatican II but everything changed with the introduction of the Novus Ordo. Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?
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« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2012, 02:26:08 AM »

The last time I attended a Catholic parish, they had service books with a clipart-style icon of black jesus pantokrator on the covers.
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« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2012, 09:14:41 AM »

Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

I don't think so.
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« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2012, 02:40:56 PM »

1965 was essentially an English version of the old Mass with lay readers, right?  That's a loaded question because most will say that is what the Novus Ordo is, but you get what I mean. 

My stepmother suggested that the Novus Ordo is just the same mass with more participation.

I don't understand why the Catholic Church couldn't just stick with the old form and simply have it in the vernacular. I was told this is what was done right after Vatican II but everything changed with the introduction of the Novus Ordo. Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

Its somewhat complicated, but the group which wrote the Novus Ordo came about after the council basically with blanket approval.  They were headed by Archbishop Bugnini, who is very much heterodox.  So I'm told, the council envisioned essentially a High Liturgy with vernacular, similar to the Tridentine Mass.  What Bugnini wanted is what is done in the Neocatechumenal Way. 

Before the Council of Trent some German and I believe Polish bishops (and probably a handful of others) were allowed vernacular Masses, and had great success doing so.  However, Protestant demands conflicted, and Latin was retained as to not appeal to Protestantism among other reasons.  China had permission to use the vernacular for most of the Mass if not all at one time, and this was definitely after Trent.
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« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2012, 02:45:39 PM »

1965 was essentially an English version of the old Mass with lay readers, right?  That's a loaded question because most will say that is what the Novus Ordo is, but you get what I mean. 

My stepmother suggested that the Novus Ordo is just the same mass with more participation.

I don't understand why the Catholic Church couldn't just stick with the old form and simply have it in the vernacular. I was told this is what was done right after Vatican II but everything changed with the introduction of the Novus Ordo. Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

it's google-able that 1965 roman missal.  I guess it isn't too much different.  Of course you could only use the roman eucharistic canon (no.1 in today's liturgy but I seldom have heard it, usually 2 or 3 is what they use).
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« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2012, 04:18:36 PM »

Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

I don't think so.
I think that they did have it as such for a while in some Old Catholic Churches (not the RCC).
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« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2012, 04:19:32 PM »

the one old catholic church nearby uses the tridentine mass in english.  they aren't roman catholics, but protestants though.
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« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2012, 04:28:20 PM »

the one old catholic church nearby uses the tridentine mass in english.  they aren't roman catholics, but protestants though.

I wouldn't consider Old Catholics Protestants.
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« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2012, 04:34:47 PM »

the one old catholic church nearby uses the tridentine mass in english.  they aren't roman catholics, but protestants though.

I wouldn't consider Old Catholics Protestants.

Agreed.
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« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2012, 04:37:30 PM »

Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

I don't think so.
I think that they did have it as such for a while in some Old Catholic Churches (not the RCC).

I think there was such a thing in the RCC too, but only for a short while in the 1960s I believe.
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« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2012, 12:26:16 AM »

Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

I don't think so.
I think that they did have it as such for a while in some Old Catholic Churches (not the RCC).

I think there was such a thing in the RCC too, but only for a short while in the 1960s I believe.
That's probably the road that liturgical reform should have taken. If we had merely translated the TLM into English, we'd be in much better shape today.
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« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2012, 10:11:49 AM »

Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

I don't think so.
I think that they did have it as such for a while in some Old Catholic Churches (not the RCC).

I think there was such a thing in the RCC too, but only for a short while in the 1960s I believe.
That's probably the road that liturgical reform should have taken. If we had merely translated the TLM into English, we'd be in much better shape today.

Its a shame that it didn't.  Sad
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« Reply #78 on: February 23, 2012, 03:22:07 AM »

Quote
That's probably the road that liturgical reform should have taken. If we had merely translated the TLM into English, we'd be in much better shape today.

Its a shame that it didn't.  Sad

Yes, instead we have this:



http://vultus.stblogs.org/2011/01/sanguis-christi.html

"The use of this photo is in no way a reflection on the good faith of the young people appearing in it. It does, however, effectively demonstrate the great chasm that has opened up between the liturgical practice of the Eastern Churches (see the photo above) and certain liturgical practices that are currently widespread in churches of the Roman Rite. It also demonstrates that some members of the clergy have failed to address the legitimate hopes and praiseworthy aspirations of the faithful, by neglecting to offer a consistent mystagogical catechesis (explanation of the unfolding of the liturgical rites and texts), capable of fostering true, conscious, and actual participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in accordance with liturgical law and in organic continuity with tradition."

Oh, how the Latin Church has come a long way since the year 1500!



Protestant influence indeed.

Well on the bright side of things, the Archdiocese of Baltimore is allowing young priests to wear really nice cassocks on a daily basis now. And some actually are. And a few local Latin churches are making some baby steps inroads toward more "orthodox" practices, concerning the eucharist and it's attendant music. Some of the "annoying gregorian chant nerds" on the blacklist are finally being taken seriously and given a chance to work their magic touch here or there. Meanwhile, simultaneously, every major city appears to have made an attempt at a celebrating "gay mass" in their most liberal parish, sometimes they canceled, sometimes they are continued.  What confusing times to live in if you have not found the "true faith".

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« Reply #79 on: February 23, 2012, 04:15:41 AM »

In fact I think that homosexuality amongst the clergy is the number one reason that the last decades of "modern" practices of the Latin /Roman Catholic Church succumbed to so may grave errors. Some may view that as conspiratorial, but years of research and first hand experience have taught me this lesson. I think that the blackmail of homosexual hierarches by modernist clerics was what allowed them. Specifically Pope Paul VI.

As actions in the OCA prove, the Orthodox Church is not immune from similar problems, but it's theology and model is able to overcome the "authoritarian/centralized/counter-reformation" policies because it is the opposite in those area, homosexuality amongst its own clergy, while less to begin with can in no way destroy it in the way it did for the Latins. Adherence to Holy Tradition preserves it.

Theoretically adherence to Holy Tradition could also save the Latin Church...but the road is much rockier there.
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« Reply #80 on: February 23, 2012, 09:02:19 AM »

Theoretically adherence to Holy Tradition could also save the Latin Church...but the road is much rockier there.

Who knows? I hope and pray that what is happening here, takes off:
http://www.cantius.org/go/about_us/category/video_about_saint_john_cantius_church/

I think this quote tells it all: "The parishioners of St. John Cantius love the Latin Liturgy.  They see in the Sacred Rites of the Church an intrinsic beauty that has a transformative power over the soul.  The Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church, understands the sacramental nature of her own liturgy, and so our Holy Mother the Church understands that beauty in liturgical gestures and monuments can reflect the beauty of God and direct the faithful towards God." (http://www.cantius.org/go/liturgy_devotions/)

I cannot wait for the next time I'm in Chicago!
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« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2012, 09:44:44 AM »

Quote
That's probably the road that liturgical reform should have taken. If we had merely translated the TLM into English, we'd be in much better shape today.

Its a shame that it didn't.  Sad

Yes, instead we have this:



http://vultus.stblogs.org/2011/01/sanguis-christi.html

"The use of this photo is in no way a reflection on the good faith of the young people appearing in it. It does, however, effectively demonstrate the great chasm that has opened up between the liturgical practice of the Eastern Churches (see the photo above) and certain liturgical practices that are currently widespread in churches of the Roman Rite. It also demonstrates that some members of the clergy have failed to address the legitimate hopes and praiseworthy aspirations of the faithful, by neglecting to offer a consistent mystagogical catechesis (explanation of the unfolding of the liturgical rites and texts), capable of fostering true, conscious, and actual participation in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, in accordance with liturgical law and in organic continuity with tradition."

Oh, how the Latin Church has come a long way since the year 1500!



Protestant influence indeed.

As I told quietmorning, almost anything that Roman Catholics do wrong can be, and oftentimes is, blamed on "Protestantism".
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« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2012, 09:49:26 AM »

Theoretically adherence to Holy Tradition could also save the Latin Church...but the road is much rockier there.

Who knows? I hope and pray that what is happening here, takes off:
http://www.cantius.org/go/about_us/category/video_about_saint_john_cantius_church/

I think this quote tells it all: "The parishioners of St. John Cantius love the Latin Liturgy.  They see in the Sacred Rites of the Church an intrinsic beauty that has a transformative power over the soul.  The Bride of Christ, the Catholic Church, understands the sacramental nature of her own liturgy, and so our Holy Mother the Church understands that beauty in liturgical gestures and monuments can reflect the beauty of God and direct the faithful towards God." (http://www.cantius.org/go/liturgy_devotions/)

I cannot wait for the next time I'm in Chicago!

Shhhh ... everybody's suppose to believe that "traditionalism" is hurting relations with the Orthodox.
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« Reply #83 on: February 24, 2012, 04:02:24 AM »

In fact I think that homosexuality amongst the clergy is the number one reason that the last decades of "modern" practices of the Latin /Roman Catholic Church succumbed to so may grave errors. Some may view that as conspiratorial, but years of research and first hand experience have taught me this lesson. I think that the blackmail of homosexual hierarches by modernist clerics was what allowed them. Specifically Pope Paul VI.
What did Pope Paul VI do "specifically"?
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« Reply #84 on: February 24, 2012, 08:03:16 AM »

Yeah, I was quite puzzled by that reference to Pope Paul VI.
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« Reply #85 on: February 24, 2012, 02:51:52 PM »

In fact I think that homosexuality amongst the clergy is the number one reason that the last decades of "modern" practices of the Latin /Roman Catholic Church succumbed to so may grave errors. Some may view that as conspiratorial, but years of research and first hand experience have taught me this lesson. I think that the blackmail of homosexual hierarches by modernist clerics was what allowed them. Specifically Pope Paul VI.
What did Pope Paul VI do "specifically"?

I'd like to know, too.  How 'bout it, Christopher?
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« Reply #86 on: February 24, 2012, 02:59:07 PM »

Quote from: Peter J link=topi c=42901.msg712497#msg712497 date=1329830081
Are there any current Catholic parishes (specifically in the US) that serve the mass in the old form but have it in the vernacular? Is this possible in the Catholic Church?

I don't think so.
I think that they did have it as such for a while in some Old Catholic Churches (not the RCC).


I think there was such a thing in the RCC too, but only for a short while in the 1960s I believe.

I think you are thinking of the 1965 Roman Missal.
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« Reply #87 on: March 02, 2012, 08:39:06 AM »

In Reply No. 79, Christopher McAvoy, are you saying that Pope Paul VI was a homosexual?  If so, do you know if he was a practicing homosexual?  If so, did this behavior occur in his youth, or do you know when it occurred or if it ended at some point.  I've never heard anything about this before.
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« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2012, 01:57:08 AM »

Concerning Paul VI:
Quote
"albizzi says:
5 August 2011 at 7:01 am

Pachomius & Young Canadian,
Paul VI was affected of a vice against nature. He was a homosexual.
This isn’t a hearsay. Mrs Randy Engel (“The rite of sodomy”), Franco Bellegrandi (“NikitaRoncalli”) and Fr Villa himself (“Paul VI beatified?”) already spoke of this.
In particular there are police report when he was archbp of Milan, he was allegedly picked up by the police for soliciting a male prostitute.
The French writer Roger Peyrefitte (himself a notorious homosexual) revealed this in time and Bellegrandi (who was a nobleman of the pontifical court and lived in the Vatican) even reported the name of his lover, the actor Paul Carlini who appeared a s a barber in the film “Roman holiday”.
Naive people cannot accept this fact, but if they were more learned, they would know that there were already homosexual popes in the past, other popes were adulterers, fornicators, even murderers.
Why are you speaking of “conspiracy theories? Before dismissing Fr Villa’s book who is a good and courageous priest, pls read it and talk after.
robtbrown says:
5 August 2011 at 7:54 am


source: http://wdtprs.com/blog/2011/08/23969/

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2012/02/28/archbishop-nichols-reaffirms-soho-masses-after-criticism/

Quote
The pastoral provision, known colloquially as the “Soho Masses”, has attracted criticism since it was established in February 2007 by the archbishop’s predecessor, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor. Earlier this month a short video of the bidding prayers at one of the Masses was posted on YouTube. Critics claimed that the prayers challenged Catholic teaching on homosexuality – a claim denied by the organisers (the video obviously shows it to be true, with giant rainbow flags and transgendered person reading prayers for "you know what".

Archbishop Nichols said: “As we approach the fifth anniversary of the establishment of a pastoral provision for Catholics of a same-sex orientation at the Church of Our Lady of the Assumption, I would like reaffirm the intention and purpose of this outreach.

It is not a topic I am going to speak about much more, except to say that the Orthodox church must make certain they do not develop these infiltrations, I dont particularly think it will, because it has many more barriers to prevent these problems.
One can research these views for themselves.

you can't quote entire articles in full length, read the rules they are in the toolbar -username! section moderator. also stay on topic.  if you want to discuss paul vi and his lifestyle start another thread.  any further infraction and you will receive a green warning dot   I also shortened your quoted article.
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« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2012, 04:41:20 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648
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« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2012, 07:28:33 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648

From the OP of the second link:

Quote
I've spoken with an RC priest.  He said "it should be easy for you."

Frankly I can't believe how many people will say that to someone who's thinking of leaving Orthodoxy for Catholicism, or vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would never consider becoming Orthodox; but I'm saying it could never be an "easy" thing for me to do, as it would mean leaving Catholicism.
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« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2012, 11:20:33 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648

From the OP of the second link:

Quote
I've spoken with an RC priest.  He said "it should be easy for you."

Frankly I can't believe how many people will say that to someone who's thinking of leaving Orthodoxy for Catholicism, or vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would never consider becoming Orthodox; but I'm saying it could never be an "easy" thing for me to do, as it would mean leaving Catholicism.

How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?  Guess it depends on the person and the priest and why they are going from Orthodoxy to Catholicism or vice-versa.  Maybe the priest said that on the basis of what was said to him by the poster.  Without knowing the specifics of any given case, it's difficult from outside to judge or assess just how difficult or easy the process would be.

Now...if you're referring to the process of discernment about making the change...that is or could be a whole other kettle of fish.  With some people it takes years.  With others, a much shorter time.
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« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2012, 11:28:51 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648

From the OP of the second link:

Quote
I've spoken with an RC priest.  He said "it should be easy for you."

Frankly I can't believe how many people will say that to someone who's thinking of leaving Orthodoxy for Catholicism, or vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would never consider becoming Orthodox; but I'm saying it could never be an "easy" thing for me to do, as it would mean leaving Catholicism.

How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?

I think you may have just proven my point.
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« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2012, 11:30:03 AM »

Guess it depends on the person and the priest and why they are going from Orthodoxy to Catholicism or vice-versa.  Maybe the priest said that on the basis of what was said to him by the poster.  Without knowing the specifics of any given case, it's difficult from outside to judge or assess just how difficult or easy the process would be.

That's certainly true.
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« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2012, 11:30:53 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648

From the OP of the second link:

Quote
I've spoken with an RC priest.  He said "it should be easy for you."

Frankly I can't believe how many people will say that to someone who's thinking of leaving Orthodoxy for Catholicism, or vice versa.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would never consider becoming Orthodox; but I'm saying it could never be an "easy" thing for me to do, as it would mean leaving Catholicism.

How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?

I think you may have just proven my point.

How so?
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« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2012, 12:02:52 PM »

I think you may have just proven my point.
How so?

Addressing the difficulty of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy, or vice versa, by saying "How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?"

I know for myself, under the circumstances we are discussing, doing those 2 things would be extremely difficult.
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« Reply #96 on: March 13, 2012, 12:21:22 PM »

I think you may have just proven my point.
How so?

Addressing the difficulty of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy, or vice versa, by saying "How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?"

Hmm....J Michael scratching his head...I wasn't and didn't mean to make light of it.  I know what it's like.

The "immediate" process of receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation and then absolution, followed by a profession of faith, in and of itself, can't be all *that* difficult--again, depending on the person, etc.  What can be a long, difficult, sometimes very trying process is getting to the point of making that  Confession, etc.  The two things cannot be totally separated, one from the other.  So...easy (to varying degrees) for some, difficult (to varying degrees) for others.
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« Reply #97 on: March 13, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »

I think you may have just proven my point.
How so?

Addressing the difficulty of leaving Catholicism for Orthodoxy, or vice versa, by saying "How difficult can it be to go to confession and recite the Profession of Faith?"

I know for myself, under the circumstances we are discussing, doing those 2 things would be extremely difficult.

Perhaps, though, *once* you had discerned that that was the right thing for you to do, that that was where God was leading you, those 2 things, Confession and Profession of Faith, would come quite easily and be quite freeing.  Or....perhaps not.  Everyone's different.  Thank God!
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« Reply #98 on: March 13, 2012, 01:02:59 PM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648
He wised up
I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley
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« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2012, 10:18:48 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648
He wised up
I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley

I'm not really familiar with that expression. What does it mean to "feel like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church"?
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« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2012, 11:27:53 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648
He wised up
I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley

I'm not really familiar with that expression. What does it mean to "feel like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church"?
A stranger in a strange land.  IOW, when in Rome, you DON'T want to do as the Romans do.
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« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2012, 12:11:22 AM »

i noticed that the incense used during the first week of lent was very "watered-down" for lack of a better word. I think it was because the services were very physical, and the chapel was confined, so I'm sure they didn't want anyone to have an asthma attack. It was "lighter" than normal incense I could tell that for sure.
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« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2012, 12:12:41 AM »

Interestingly enough, a month after Trevor, the original poster, claims on the Fish Eaters website that he wants to become Roman-Catholic: http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3424002.40.html (user ServantofGod)
AND
http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3449489.msg33707648.html#msg33707648
He wised up
I just want to say:  One thing I thought was interesting was that, were this 5 months ago, I might of felt more at home at this mass.  I'm happy to report that I felt like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church  Smiley

I'm not really familiar with that expression. What does it mean to "feel like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church"?
A stranger in a strange land.  IOW, when in Rome, you DON'T want to do as the Romans do.

lol a strange feeling indeed...
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« Reply #103 on: March 15, 2012, 02:27:39 AM »

The fact that on a practical level the Latin Church will probably take 50 + years to revert back to a model of liturgical and theological tradition superficially comparable to the average Eastern (or even Western) Orthodox Church (the "heaven on earth" type sensation) is a reason that makes the decision to switch over rather easy for some. Assuming it hell does not prevail against it.

This is the kind of thing that makes Roman Catholic polemics vis-a-vis Protestantism, and even Orthodoxy so hollow. Much is made of the diverseness of Protestant denominations in supposed contrast to Rome’s dogged adherence throughout the ages to the Faith once given to the saints. And the number of Roman priests who say that Orthodoxy is a no good "state communist church" without integrity is a ridiculous statement too. I've heard that one a million times.

Now family is very powerful and a good reason to make decisions, thats really the only sympathy I have for people making otherwise seemingly less rational decisions. The Church itself is like a big family. In that sense I sympathize with brother trevor's plight. Many people stay in churches because of family attachments, this is perhaps a holy intention i cant argue against personally. Only in my instance, my grandmothers intentional cremation being promoted by the latin church and attending that funeral in the most liberal iconoclastic superficial building i've ever been in with a "pseudo-hippy priest" and buddhist style censer was enough to make me desire to have nothing to do with Rome at all. Not going to a funeral with a body at it is the worst thing in the world. It's like your relative was in a natural disaster or war, a very hollow experience psychologically. It is intrigueing the opposite experiences people have.

In fact, if, say, I were an Orthodox person who was going to convert to Rome, I would have to accept what seems to me an enormously latitudinarian denomination of a Church, something that accommodates almost everything — from the conservative Roman Catholic homeschoolers who impress me so much, to prelates and professors very liberal about doctrine and practice; and finally it’s all good, all are welcome at the altar.

It seems to me that Roman Catholics who see themselves as the faithful remnant are basically in the position of choosing which faction they will identify with, which books they will read, and where they will go to church, very much as the orthodox remnant in Anglicanism does. Unless one has an Eastern catholic, anglican use, traditional latin parish around them, theres not much one can do to avoid the negative qualities of the average "mainstream novus ordo/spirit of vatican II". The feeling you have when you know a portion of your tithing is going into some united nations "human development" campaign that the USCCB bought into and doesnt publicize and helps dissident aithets (Michael Voris covered this on youtube a while back). When the older generation is gone things may change faster than we think..but Ill believe it when I see it.

Thirty years or so ago the claims of Rome really did give me pause. But that was then. Many couldn’t adjust to the protestant qualities now. All one has to do is read the biography of Donald Wuerls tenure as bishop of Pittsburg in the late 80's. He advocated and held conferences calling for protestants and catholics to have open communion together..these days the man is a Cardinal.  It almost reminds me of the videos of the dog walking into the middle of the mass on youtube. Maybe the dog will be cardinal next. Yeah, I'm joking, but the way things have been..it almost seems like an idea someone will come up with. After women's ordination..pet ordination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6FqGGVJjPA
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« Reply #104 on: March 15, 2012, 02:55:33 AM »

With all that said, there is this one caveat, which is worth stating, and maybe is the sort of influence that trevor would be sympathetic too. I know I would be once that day comes, if it does.

Quote

"Pope Benedict XVI. really doesn't have any other alternative than to reconcile with the Traditionalists. Because  they are growing from year to year (lay people and seminarians - and novus ordo is not growing) -kreuz.net"

And that my friends is from my perspective a most positive potential development for the Latin Church.
Good ol' SSPX reconciliation.
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« Reply #105 on: March 15, 2012, 05:52:47 AM »

All one has to do is read the biography of Donald Wuerls tenure as bishop of Pittsburg in the late 80's. He advocated and held conferences calling for protestants and catholics to have open communion together..these days the man is a Cardinal.
I haven't heard about that one. Would you have a link for this?
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« Reply #106 on: March 15, 2012, 09:56:43 AM »

I'm not really familiar with that expression. What does it mean to "feel like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church"?
A stranger in a strange land.  IOW, when in Rome, you DON'T want to do as the Romans do.

Well then I can relate to that. I feel like an Orthodox Christian in a Roman Catholic Church whenever I'm in an Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #107 on: March 15, 2012, 09:57:32 AM »

Now family is very powerful and a good reason to make decisions, thats really the only sympathy I have for people making otherwise seemingly less rational decisions. The Church itself is like a big family. In that sense I sympathize with brother trevor's plight. Many people stay in churches because of family attachments, this is perhaps a holy intention i cant argue against personally. Only in my instance, my grandmothers intentional cremation being promoted by the latin church and attending that funeral in the most liberal iconoclastic superficial building i've ever been in with a "pseudo-hippy priest" and buddhist style censer was enough to make me desire to have nothing to do with Rome at all. Not going to a funeral with a body at it is the worst thing in the world. It's like your relative was in a natural disaster or war, a very hollow experience psychologically. It is intrigueing the opposite experiences people have.

In fact, if, say, I were an Orthodox person who was going to convert to Rome, I would have to accept what seems to me an enormously latitudinarian denomination of a Church, something that accommodates almost everything — from the conservative Roman Catholic homeschoolers who impress me so much, to prelates and professors very liberal about doctrine and practice; and finally it’s all good, all are welcome at the altar.

I wouldn't recommend voicing those opinions in Catholic circles. Or at least, if you do Wink then be prepared to get a lot of suggestions that you depart for Eastern Orthodoxy and don't-let-the-door-hit-you-on-the-way-out.
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« Reply #108 on: March 15, 2012, 09:58:07 AM »

This is the kind of thing that makes Roman Catholic polemics vis-a-vis Protestantism, and even Orthodoxy so hollow. Much is made of the diverseness of Protestant denominations in supposed contrast to Rome’s dogged adherence throughout the ages to the Faith once given to the saints.

Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.
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« Reply #109 on: March 15, 2012, 04:01:50 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."
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"and for all who are Orthodox, and who hold the Catholic and Apostolic Faith, remember, O Lord, thy servants" - yet the post-conciliar RC hierarchy is tolerant of everyone and everything... except Catholic Tradition, for modernists are as salt with no taste, to be “thrown out and trampled under foot
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« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2012, 04:21:07 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!
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« Reply #111 on: March 16, 2012, 03:53:52 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!

Hey, Christopher, any chance of providing a link to the article I asked for?  I've tried tracking it down online but without success.  It can be really frustrating to have someone quote something out of context from a source that they name but which can't be verified.  Can you help me out, here, please?  Thanks  Wink!  (Could be I'm just not searching with the right parameters, but, if I knew what those were, I guess I would have found it, right  Wink?)
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« Reply #112 on: March 16, 2012, 04:26:47 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!

Hey, Christopher, any chance of providing a link to the article I asked for? 

If you think one day is a long time to wait for an answer, then I predict you're not going to be too happy on this forum!
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« Reply #113 on: March 16, 2012, 04:29:21 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!

Hey, Christopher, any chance of providing a link to the article I asked for? 

If you think one day is a long time to wait for an answer, then I predict you're not going to be too happy on this forum!

Happy?  Who said anything about "happy"?  If I depended upon this forum for my happiness, I'd really be in deep fecal matter.  Wink
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« Reply #114 on: March 16, 2012, 04:31:30 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!

Hey, Christopher, any chance of providing a link to the article I asked for?  I've tried tracking it down online but without success.  It can be really frustrating to have someone quote something out of context from a source that they name but which can't be verified.  Can you help me out, here, please?  Thanks  Wink!  (Could be I'm just not searching with the right parameters, but, if I knew what those were, I guess I would have found it, right  Wink?)

Good luck:

http://old.post-gazette.com/newslinks/genealogy.asp
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« Reply #115 on: March 16, 2012, 04:33:29 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!

Hey, Christopher, any chance of providing a link to the article I asked for?  I've tried tracking it down online but without success.  It can be really frustrating to have someone quote something out of context from a source that they name but which can't be verified.  Can you help me out, here, please?  Thanks  Wink!  (Could be I'm just not searching with the right parameters, but, if I knew what those were, I guess I would have found it, right  Wink?)

Good luck:

http://old.post-gazette.com/newslinks/genealogy.asp

You could contact the person who wrote this webpage:

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/060518
« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 04:33:44 PM by orthonorm » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: March 16, 2012, 04:38:09 PM »

Quote
Well consider: the term Protestantism encompasses Lutherans (and sometimes Anglicans), Methodists, Calvinists, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Congregationalists (and even others). So it is far more diverse (and less united) than Catholicism.

yes, that was an exaggeration, I made, I agree. There is more unity in Catholicism, though not as much as there should be or was in the past.

As for cardinal Donal Wuerl, an article in the January 23, 1989 Pittsburgh Press, "Breaking Bread — Wuerl Wants Denominations to Share Communion," dealt with a meeting between the Bishop Wuerl and six Protestant denominations
Quote
"to work with the Catholic Church toward the possibility of sharing Communion together...Wuerl stressed that local church leaders have had years of experience working together on social projects through Christian Associates. He called them to move beyond working together to worshipping together at the altar. He contrasted the theological polarization over Communion with the ritual of foot-washing, which does not divide churches."

Can you provide a link to the whole article?  Thanks!

Hey, Christopher, any chance of providing a link to the article I asked for?  I've tried tracking it down online but without success.  It can be really frustrating to have someone quote something out of context from a source that they name but which can't be verified.  Can you help me out, here, please?  Thanks  Wink!  (Could be I'm just not searching with the right parameters, but, if I knew what those were, I guess I would have found it, right  Wink?)

Good luck:

http://old.post-gazette.com/newslinks/genealogy.asp

You could contact the person who wrote this webpage:

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/060518

Thanks!

And thanks!  Wink Wink
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