Author Topic: Protestants, do you pray for this?  (Read 12483 times)

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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #90 on: March 08, 2012, 12:45:26 PM »
Mainstream Protestants complain about American Evangelicals every bit as bitterly as I do.

Is there really a difference? Mainstream American Protestants are Evangelicals for the most part; it has become the new movement within all of the American Protestant Churches. The only mainstream American Protestant Church I would exclude from this would be the Lutherans, but even they are not considered mainstream and Evangelicals have problems with them.

Granted I've never been Protestant
Really? I thought you were now.

ouch...

Offline alanscott

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #91 on: March 08, 2012, 12:53:46 PM »
I spy a call-out thread...

Pardon my ignorance but what is a 'call-out' thread?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #92 on: March 08, 2012, 12:56:33 PM »
Granted I've never been Protestant
Really? I thought you were now.

Why?
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #93 on: March 08, 2012, 12:57:39 PM »
I spy a call-out thread...

Pardon my ignorance but what is a 'call-out' thread?

I don't know either, but I started this thread in response to something that was said on the Christian News forum. Perhaps it has something to do with that.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #94 on: March 08, 2012, 02:58:03 PM »
A thread that was made in response to something someone specifically said, in order to "call them out" on what they said.

Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #95 on: March 08, 2012, 03:23:27 PM »
A thread that was made in response to something someone specifically said, in order to "call them out" on what they said.

I don't believe you are correctly representing the purpose of this thread; but honesty I don't much care to argue about it. I pretty much gave up on the purpose of this thread almost a month ago. I refer you to what I said in post #61:

----------------------------------------

Dear all,

Since challenging podkarpatska's prayer request a couple days ago, I've received quite a few posts in reply. Some of them defended the prayer request, others described what's wrong with some or all Protestants (which I don't disagree with by the way), still others said that I was being provocative or picking a fight by challenging podkarpatska's request, or “too bad if the truth hurts”, among other thing (cf. my previous post to Schultz).

After many such posts, I was informed that when Orthodox pray for Protestants to be "kept at a distance" it doesn't refer to physical distance, and it was further hinted (I believe) that it is in fact equivalent to praying that the ministrations of American evangelicals fall upon deaf ears in those lands.

This has me at a great disadvantage, not only because I just recently learned something that most/all of you Orthodox posters knew from the start, but also because I really don't know whether Protestants who pray “for Orthodox to be kept at a distance from the US” are actually praying for the ministrations of Orthodox in the US to fall upon deaf ears, so I'm going to have to disqualify myself from that corner of the discussion.

But leaving that aside, I want to thank everyone who has posted on this thread, and also others like Fr. Ambrose and Wyatt, with whom I have conversed in the last month or so (which has been great by the way). Don't forget about me, I'll be back again before you know it.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 03:24:46 PM by Peter J »
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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #96 on: March 08, 2012, 03:29:37 PM »
I pretty much gave up on the purpose of this thread almost a month ago.

P.S. Although, as you may have already noticed, I didn't just roll over regarding the rumor that was started about me:

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #97 on: March 09, 2012, 11:42:25 AM »

Offline primuspilus

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Offline Peter J

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2012, 11:52:45 AM »
I wondered for a while if I was "going Anglican" as you might say. But in the end, no, although I think I have more respect and liking for Anglicanism than I used to.

Addendum: A few weeks ago I started using the descriptor "High Church" to explain where I am religiously. Not long after that, I began to think that I should perhaps be a little more specific, to avoid misunderstandings.

This line of thought led me, especially, to one particular question: am I still a Catholic, or am I now an Anglican? (I don't want to get into a lengthy explanation of what Anglican means; but for the sake of interpreting the preceding sentence, suffice it to say that for me "Anglican" includes not only the Anglican Communion, but the Continuing Anglicans as well.) I pondered this question for some weeks, and in the end the answer seemed quite clear: I am a Catholic. I do have a great liking for Anglicanism, at least as understood by the Continuing Anglicans, but it isn't who I am.

Having said all that, I want to set the record straight for anyone who may be wondering if I'm SSPX. I'm not. I definitely believe that the SSPX is and has always been Catholic, and I definitely think that studying them has been very helpful to me as a Catholic, but I'm not SSPX myself.

Thanks for reading.  :)
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Offline Peter J

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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2012, 12:02:17 PM »
Quote
Now who's "hipster"? 
Ah, turnabout is fair play my friend :) Good one :)

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Offline Indocern

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #102 on: August 05, 2016, 01:57:57 PM »
Protestants, I'm wondering how many of you pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US (or whatever country)?

I'd like to think not very many of you do; but I had to ask because on another thread, an Orthodox posted this regarding Eastern Europe:

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Apparently it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not Protestants.

Protestants want to attract more people to them to become protestants, that's why they don't keep us on distance. But we Orthodox must not fall to their blandishments.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:01:17 PM by Indocern »

Offline Daedelus1138

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #103 on: August 25, 2016, 10:06:24 AM »
If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian. 

Somebody who is baptized once in a church and never darkened a church door once in their life, don't they need to hear the Gospel?  Russia and Eastern Europe have a lot of those sorts of individuals.  But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ.

Quote
I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls.  Their souls are not lost. 

They are lost to religious nominalism.  It sounds like an unevangelized land, frankly.  The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia".  I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.

Most of the Lutheran missionary work I have heard of in Russia is not looking to actively proselytize among devout Orthodox Christians.  In some cases there is no actual "conversion" that happens.  Mostly what happens is a liberal Russians of Orthodox background might prefer to go to a Lutheran or Methodist church because they feel alienated from the Orthodox Church.  And almost always their baptisms are recognized as valid.  Indeed, most Lutherans in Russia are ethnic minorities (German, Finnish), not actual ethnic Russians.



« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 10:16:29 AM by Daedelus1138 »

Offline juliogb

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #104 on: August 25, 2016, 12:38:15 PM »



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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #105 on: August 25, 2016, 09:44:35 PM »
But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ. [...] The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia".  I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.
Do you actually know Russia? It sounds an awful lot like you're prejudicedly setting the most publicised problems of the Church as some kind of hegemony, as if there were 10 Dugins for each babushka there.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2016, 09:45:27 PM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #106 on: August 25, 2016, 09:50:30 PM »
Pure hubris, this idea that some upstart foreign sect could do the work of the Church and the Russian people better than they themselves can, or should do it for them at all.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #107 on: August 26, 2016, 07:27:27 AM »
Well, sincerely, some religious competition can be good sometimes, clergy starts to wake up and adress their problems and the problems of the faithfull, really, if russian orthodox clergy is so concerned with that, they really should teach people better, because a orthodox that knows his faith clearly, probably wont convert to seventh day adventism or whatever. If they want to prevent people from going to protestant churches they really should adress those matters, spend more time teaching, behavingly in a saintly manner and stop promoting nationalism if that is the case.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #108 on: August 26, 2016, 09:11:43 AM »
Since many Evangelicals say Orthodox and RC's are not Christians, they dont think of it as proseletyzing.

Indeed. On the other hand, many Orthodox speak about Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists etc. as though we may as well not be Christian.

Sad, on both sides.
The difference is that the Orthodox can point to the exact anathemas against Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Methodists etc. that the actual Church enacted and that they are subject to. Between the Seventh Ecumenical Council and the Photian Council (sometimes called the Eight Ecumenical) and the Palamite Councils, there's multiple grounds for heresy.

Meanwhile the Evangelicals read one Bible verse and suddenly icon veneration is idol-worship. Or maybe not, because you have the right to your own private interpretation of the Bible based on what you think the Holy Spirit told you regardless of what anyone else has ever said. But try to use that to defend the Church's version and they will become grumpy. ::)
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #109 on: September 08, 2016, 08:42:27 AM »
Quote
Well, sincerely, some religious competition can be good sometimes
I would agree in principle. However, from personal experience on both sides of this issue, those born in Orthodox countries have notoriously bad catechesis (or none at all) and quickly fall away to anyone teaching the magic prayer version of Christianity. We were highly successful just by saying you didnt need to pray, fast, or commune. Just pray this prayer, really mean it, and boom. You're in. Another notch on the gunbelt.

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Offline juliogb

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #110 on: September 08, 2016, 09:44:21 AM »
Quote
Well, sincerely, some religious competition can be good sometimes
I would agree in principle. However, from personal experience on both sides of this issue, those born in Orthodox countries have notoriously bad catechesis (or none at all) and quickly fall away to anyone teaching the magic prayer version of Christianity. We were highly successful just by saying you didnt need to pray, fast, or commune. Just pray this prayer, really mean it, and boom. You're in. Another notch on the gunbelt.

PP

Well, I dont think is that simple, evangelical churches, at least the ones I know, usually demand some sort of ''trial period'', some sort of catechesis, rebaptism....probably it is easier and faster than a orthodox conversion process, but there is still a process.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #111 on: September 08, 2016, 10:00:50 AM »
Quote
Well, I dont think is that simple, evangelical churches, at least the ones I know, usually demand some sort of ''trial period'', some sort of catechesis, rebaptism....probably it is easier and faster than a orthodox conversion process, but there is still a process.
Not the "sinner's prayer", "Once saved, always saved" flavor of American Evangelicalism. Usually, these folks are some kind of baptists who come from the South. They also usually view Roman Catholics and orthodox as not Christian at all.

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Offline mike

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #112 on: September 08, 2016, 10:54:46 AM »
But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ. [...] The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia".  I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.
Do you actually know Russia?

Do you?
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #113 on: September 08, 2016, 10:57:54 AM »
But instead the Orthodox Church in many of those countries seems to be preaching mostly nationalism and xenophobia... anything but the Good News of Jesus Christ. [...] The Gospel, the forgiveness of sins and eternal life, is being co-opted by nationalist interests of the myth of "Holy Russia".  I'd say that's reason enough to evangelize.
Do you actually know Russia?

Do you?
Not personally, but exactly for that reason I should give them a presumption of innocence instead of painting their Holy Church as some Christian version of the Thule Society. All members of the ROC I met were either uncaring of these political projects, or worried. Maybe in Russia they're more involved by these narratives, but it's still an absurd caricature he painted to justify sheep-stealing.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:00:18 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Diego

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #114 on: September 08, 2016, 10:58:32 AM »
In general, I don't know of any Anglicans or Lutherans who go to countries like Russia or Greece and try to convert Orthodox persons to their variety of Christianity. Anglicans have exactly three parishes in all of Russia. Since Anglicans consider themselves a National form of Catholicism, and classify Russian Orthodoxy as such, converting them would be considered stupid.

Lutherans also have a similar, albeit somewhat different take on the matter. The Scandinavian Churches hold a VERY similar view as the Church of England does. The rest of us Lutherans might have individual objections to Catholic and/or Orthodox theology (allow me to specify I personally have no objection to Orthodox theology as of yet because I don't KNOW enough of it), but that wouldn't go so far as to call them non-Christian. The idea of going to,for example, Russia, solely for the purpose of converting Russian Orthodox persons, would be beyond our comprehension. There ARE some Lutherans in Russia. But these tend to be people who ALREADY had an interest in Lutheranism, and simply expressed that interest to us, usually after a stay in Estonia or Latvia, both of which states are predominantly Lutheran.

Now, as for OTHER American Protestants (and I point out that Lutheran Christianity is predominantly worldwide and was the first form of Protestantism to exist in 1517 in Germany, quickly moving to Scandinavia and parts of Poland as well), I would agree, they LOVE to poach in the flocks of other Churches. That INCLUDES Lutheran Churches as well as Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

When it comes to the Assemblies of God and other Pentecostal-type traditions, Baptist traditions, and the like, who ARE Christian insofar as they recognise the Trinity, they are just offensive inasmuch as they reject the traditional Churches in favour of their own novel Fundamentalist theological standpoints.

And of course you have your Mormons and your Jehovah's Witnesses, who do not even fit the category of Christian in the traditional sense, since they both reject the Triune God as understood by the Church Fathers. And they LOVE to consider themselves the ONLY true Christians, and they LOVE to preach their heretical doctrines in lands wherein Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or even Anglicanism or Lutheranism are dominant. So you see, we are as much victims of that crap as you are.

I can tell you that in my State in the United States, Lutheranism is so predominant as to be the de facto State Church. NO ONE questions the dominance that it has here. It is largely divided into the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, and Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ. The last two are quite small. The first two are quite large, having 4 million members nationwide in the case of the first, and in the case of the second, 2.3 million.

The second largest grouping in this State is the Roman Catholic Church. And again, no one questions this. But here, both the Lutherans of all varieties and the Catholics have the money and the manpower to hold out against all comers.

I realise that in Russia of the '90's, and even to a point now, the religious matters regarding relations between Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic have been and are quite contentious. And where contention exists, an easy hole in the fence gets made for these less, shall we say, desirable of groups, like the Mormons and the JWs to get in.

Furthermore, I can TOTALLY see how it would vex you to no end! I would be p*ssed if that happened to my State here!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:01:45 AM by Diego »

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants, do you pray for this?
« Reply #115 on: Today at 12:53:07 AM »
Not to mention the Lutherans in Russia who were ethnic Germans. There aren't as many of them now, though.

My state is also heavily Lutheran, especially in certain rural areas, although I believe there are more Catholics here overall.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:55:24 AM by Minnesotan »
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