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Author Topic: Protestants, do you pray for this?  (Read 4833 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: February 07, 2012, 01:27:22 PM »

Protestants, I'm wondering how many of you pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US (or whatever country)?

I'd like to think not very many of you do; but I had to ask because on another thread, an Orthodox posted this regarding Eastern Europe:

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Apparently it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not Protestants.
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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 01:34:36 PM »

When I was protestant I know alot of folks that would not pray that in particular, but would pray something like,

"The veil of Satan's devices would be lifed and come to the true saving knowledge of Christ" or "That those who have fallen to idolatry would be convicted and pray for Christ to come into their hearts and lives".

As for me, I was too busy with my own issues Wink

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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 01:45:24 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

Somewhere on this board I think it's been mentioned that the reason Billy Graham and the Russian Orthodox Church are on good terms is because Graham would turn over any "converts" to the local Orthodox church there.
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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 01:47:44 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

Somewhere on this board I think it's been mentioned that the reason Billy Graham and the Russian Orthodox Church are on good terms is because Graham would turn over any "converts" to the local Orthodox church there.
Which he did. The prayers that i mentioned were actually 2 of the prayers that were said as soon as we settled into our temporary lodgings at Pioneer Camp in Vladimir Russia, if anyone is familiar with it. I think its still there.

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 02:38:37 PM »

do u have any references or more info about that claim regarding billy graham?
that would be a good example of Christian co-operation, and i would love to know more.

about the original question, i don't know of any orthodox or catholic Christians 'proselytising' in foreign countries to get 'converts' from the protestants, so i doubt anyone prays this. i doubt it is a widespread or widely reported 'problem'.
i certainly did not hear it when i was protestant.
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 03:24:15 PM »

do u have any references or more info about that claim regarding billy graham?
that would be a good example of Christian co-operation, and i would love to know more.

about the original question, i don't know of any orthodox or catholic Christians 'proselytising' in foreign countries to get 'converts' from the protestants, so i doubt anyone prays this. i doubt it is a widespread or widely reported 'problem'.
i certainly did not hear it when i was protestant.

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"He [Willis Haymaker*] would also call on the local Catholic bishop or other clerics to acquaint them with Crusade plans and invite them to the meetings; they would usually appoint a priest to attend and report back. This was years before Vatican II's openness to Protestants, but we were concerned to let the Catholic bishops see that my goal was not to get people to leave their church; rather, I wanted them to commit their lives to Christ." (Page 163
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 03:45:53 PM »

Protestants, I'm wondering how many of you pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US (or whatever country)?

I'd like to think not very many of you do; but I had to ask because on another thread, an Orthodox posted this regarding Eastern Europe:

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Apparently it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not Protestants.

Nothing like good old-fashioned 'out of context' quote clipping. Several of us have engaged in this discussion with you at length on another thread.  You should full well know that the provocative way in which you presented that comment is both disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. That thread is: Patriarch Kirill (MP) - Meeting with the Pope is Not Yet Possible http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42729.0.html

Anyone reading the entirely of the replies therein starting with my original Reply #1 can see what my words were referring to (and were clearly intended as a rebuke to them) the Orthodox leaders in both Russia and Greece who complain on and on about twenty years old property disputes within the former USSR among the various Greek Catholic and Orthodox factions, while outside missionaries plow the fields of their flocks. I was suggesting that those of us truly interested in Orthodox and Eastern Christianity ought to resolve our own problems rather than sit by while prosthelytizing outsiders - mainly American Protestants - come into these lands to convert people while we argue on and on among ourselves.

To the extent that I may have alluded to Protestants as a whole, I apologize. That was overly broad and unfair.  I will, however, reiterate my statement as it applies to  many, including  American evangelicals, Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who are all active across east Europe.

This is, in the end, an Orthodox Christian discussion board, and those who are not Orthodox or Eastern Christians for that matter, should hardly be surprised if the focus of discussion here takes a position in opposition to those those who would state over and over again that 'we' easterners are neither Christian nor capable of salvation without the intervention of their missionaries.

I don't think it is amazing or even surprising that we Orthodox would seek protection in our prayers from those from those, even those who are probably well-intentioned, who would seek to drive us away from the True Faith and who share not our chalice in the profession of the One True Faith.

Don't we pray these words with each and every Liturgy celebrated across the globe? Such as in the first Litany: " Furthermore we pray for those who give offerings and do good works in this holy and venerable Church, for those who labor in its service, for those who sing, and for all the people here present who await Your great and abundant mercy, for those who have shown us kindness and for all Orthodox Christians." and in the prayers of the Epikesis: "Furthermore we offer You this spiritual sacrifice for those who have fallen asleep in the Faith: forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics and for every righteous soul made perfect in the Faith. (Hebrews 12:23)." and in the Amvon Prayer at the conclusion of the Liturgy: "O Lord, Who blesses those who bless You (Genesis 12:3) and sanctifies those who put their trust in You, save Your people and bless Your inheritance (Psalm 28:9), preserve the fullness of Your Church, sanctify those who love the beauty of Your House (Psalm 26), glorify them by Your divine might, and forsake us not who put our hope in You. Grant peace to Your world, to Your churches, to Your priests, to the honorable government of our country, its armed forces and to all Your people. For every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from You, the Father of lights (James 1:17), and to You we give glory and thanksgiving and worship, to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, always now unto ages of ages." http://aggreen.net/liturgics/C-R_Div_Lit.html
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 04:24:09 PM »

IS OUTRAGE!  EVERYONE KNOWS THAT GOD DOES NOT LISTEN TO PRAYERS OF HETERODOX!  ONLY THE EVIL ONE ANSWERS THEIR PRAYERS! 
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 04:56:04 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

So, by the same logic, Protestants should pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US because (some) Orthodox have done bad things.
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 04:59:20 PM »

By the way, manalive, podkarpatska said "Protestants", not "Protestants and Catholics" ...

30 January 2012, 13:27

Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

"However, the Catholic Church was not very enthusiastic about our offer," he said..."


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9020


Here is the sticking point and it is one that those of us who either personally, or through our family narratives, were involved in property disputes here in North America can understand:


"Speaking about the seizure of Orthodox churches in Ukraine by Greek Catholics, the Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church."

To those who retained their Greek Catholic faith during the periods of state enforced persecution, the property transfers in western Ukraine are not 'seizures' but legitimate 'recoveries.' For example, the Greek Catholic Cathedrals in Uzhorod and Muchachevo were both built in the post-Unia era in the 18th and 19th centuries, so to the Greek Catholics they were unlawfully 'seized' as a result of state actions in 1947.

To those who legitimately professed Orthodoxy both prior to and following 1947, their views on the subject are obviously different and need to be respected by the Greek Catholic community as well before any meaningful progress can be achieved.

As to those who sit in places like Moscow, Athens or in comfortable places in the west who abstractly pine about the historical wrongs caused by the unia in the first instance, I can only say that it is far easier to pontificate on a subject than to understand it from first hand experience.

Keep in mind also that for eastern Europe, all of this is recent history as only twenty years have passed. When I was a kid in the 1960's, some twenty years following the end of the period of litigation and church building following the second schism in the American Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, my church friends would literally 'cross the street' rather than pass in front of the newly constructed BCC church next door. Their children would 'hold their breath and look the other way' when passing St. Michael's. This pattern was repeated across the Northeast and Midwestern United States in countless cities, towns and hamlets where churches were split during that time period.

Today our peoples and our leaders remain separated by faith and most are comfortable with the choices that fate presented us, but we no longer have the 'hatred' and passion that existed years ago. Most of us have learned to cherish that which we possess in common and to try to understand those things which keep us apart. It is a tough road, but not an impossible one to follow.

To expect the Ukrainians and the Russians to 'kiss and make up' only twenty years after the collapse of the USSR and the restoration of the Greek Catholic church is unrealistic - for both sides. Of course the Ukrainian problems are compounded by the fractures within the Orthodox communities in Ukraine and the relationships, and lack thereof, which the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are developing with some of the Orthodox on purely nationalistic grounds.

I would only ask those who are far removed from that situation, as well as the parallel ones in Slovakia and Romania to not be quick to judge our brothers and sisters as none of you have walked the proverbial mile in their shoes - either Orthodox or Greek Catholic ones for that matter.

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 05:01:41 PM »

Don't go away in a snit, but pick your fights more carefully.

I'm really so incredibly sick of this sh*t.
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 05:32:29 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

So, by the same logic, Protestants should pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US because (some) Orthodox have done bad things.

By your logic, we should just let Protestant missionaries put the eternal salvation of unchurched souls in Eastern Europe in jeopardy by spreading their heterodox dogmas (at best) and lies (at worst).

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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 05:33:21 PM »

Don't go away in a snit, but pick your fights more carefully.

I'm really so incredibly sick of this sh*t.

Yet you keep coming back to the yard to wallow in it.

Sounds like fun.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 05:48:43 PM »

Literalism - another problem I have with some Protestants.

I wouldn't think it is proper to pray that anyone be 'kept at a distance' from people in a physical sense unless they had a communicable disease in time of a plague. Even then, such thoughts are not really consistent with scripture. That is contrary to a proper Orthodox understanding of prayer. Like much in our faith, my intent is one that is metaphorical in the context to which I am referring.

No Orthodox or Catholic immigrants came to mostly Protestant America with the intention of 'evangelizing' the mostly Protestant Americans in the 19th and 20th centuries. They came here to seek freedom from oppression and for a better life for their families. Your very analogy is offensive to their memories - particularly in light of how many of those Orthodox and Roman Catholic immigrants were treated by the mostly majority Protestants during many periods of American history.

In simple terms,you don't come into someone's home, belittle their ancestors, call them vile names and expect them to love you.

That is exactly what many evangelical missionaries have been doing in Eastern Europe since the fall of communism when they deny the Christian history of the nations in which they minister and they deny the very Christianity of those who are Orthodox or Roman Catholics living in those lands.
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 05:52:32 PM »

In answer to the original question no. I have heard some prejudices, but never to that extent. I'm sure it does exist, like you said hopefully not w/ many, but I have never been exposed to it.

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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 05:53:32 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

So, by the same logic, Protestants should pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US because (some) Orthodox have done bad things.

By your logic, we should just let Protestant missionaries put the eternal salvation of unchurched souls in Eastern Europe in jeopardy by spreading their heterodox dogmas (at best) and lies (at worst).

What gives you the right to put words in my mouth?
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 05:54:56 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

So, by the same logic, Protestants should pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US because (some) Orthodox have done bad things.

By your logic, we should just let Protestant missionaries put the eternal salvation of unchurched souls in Eastern Europe in jeopardy by spreading their heterodox dogmas (at best) and lies (at worst).

What gives you the right to put words in my mouth?

I didn't put anything anywhere.  I outright admitted that what I was saying was possibly wrong and asked for you to correct it.  Instead, you got defensive and still haven't actually corrected anything but rather went off the handle and started yet another thread because your ego got bruised.

Grow up.
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 06:01:11 PM »

What podkarpatska I think is referencing is the notion of Protestants and Catholics coming into Orthodox lands, that are already Christian, and polemicising and evangelizing the population.

So, by the same logic, Protestants should pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US because (some) Orthodox have done bad things.

By your logic, we should just let Protestant missionaries put the eternal salvation of unchurched souls in Eastern Europe in jeopardy by spreading their heterodox dogmas (at best) and lies (at worst).

What gives you the right to put words in my mouth?

I didn't put anything anywhere.  I outright admitted that what I was saying was possibly wrong and asked for you to correct it.  Instead, you got defensive and still haven't actually corrected anything but rather went off the handle and started yet another thread because your ego got bruised.

Grow up.

?
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 06:04:30 PM »

I despise "Christian" missionaries....who travel to lands that are already Christian (namely Orthodox) to bring the Good News to them.

If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian.

I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls.  Their souls are not lost.

Go and save the souls of the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.  They truly do need to hear the Good News.

Peter J., there's a huge difference here.

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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 06:11:59 PM »

I despise "Christian" missionaries....who travel to lands that are already Christian (namely Orthodox) to bring the Good News to them.

If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian.

I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls.  Their souls are not lost.

Go and save the souls of the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.  They truly do need to hear the Good News.

Peter J., there's a huge difference here.


I agree.

I also believe that some Protestants have done bad things (some of which I've been reminded of recently). I will think of those things -- and many others of course, but those in particular -- soon, because I'm going to be praying with some Protestants a few times during Lent.
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 06:38:12 PM »

do u have any references or more info about that claim regarding billy graham?
that would be a good example of Christian co-operation, and i would love to know more.

about the original question, i don't know of any orthodox or catholic Christians 'proselytising' in foreign countries to get 'converts' from the protestants, so i doubt anyone prays this. i doubt it is a widespread or widely reported 'problem'.
i certainly did not hear it when i was protestant.

I can't provide a reference exactly, but I remember a lot of hyper-evangelical anti-Catholic types calling Billy Graham a deceptive snake for refusing to encourage Catholics to join a "proper" church at his Crusades here in America, with these accusations going back to the '60s. Too many to list, sadly, and it has been so long since I read any of that tripe that I can't really remember a good place to start. He has always worked with the local churches of whatever denomination will cooperate in every city with his Crusades and has had a multi-denominational staff of volunteers on hand to handle those who walk the aisle.

And to the OP, yes, plenty of times, by the above mentioned types.
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 07:10:30 PM »

If someone believes something is true to expect them to NOT want it to be preserved, and to expect them to not to want people to maintain the true belief is what is outrageous. What do you want, them to believe something is true, yet pray "God, allow people to fall away from that truth." Its crazy actually.

It is not "tolerance" or whatever buzz word to believe something is true yet not care if people come to it or preserve, its hypocrisy.
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 07:48:45 PM »

I can't provide a reference exactly, but I remember a lot of hyper-evangelical anti-Catholic types calling Billy Graham a deceptive snake for refusing to encourage Catholics to join a "proper" church at his Crusades here in America, with these accusations going back to the '60s. Too many to list, sadly, and it has been so long since I read any of that tripe that I can't really remember a good place to start. He has always worked with the local churches of whatever denomination will cooperate in every city with his Crusades and has had a multi-denominational staff of volunteers on hand to handle those who walk the aisle.

And to the OP, yes, plenty of times, by the above mentioned types.

And how do you "feel" about that? Does it endear you to them?
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 07:58:40 PM »

I despise "Christian" missionaries....who travel to lands that are already Christian (namely Orthodox) to bring the Good News to them.

If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian.

I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls.  Their souls are not lost.

Go and save the souls of the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.  They truly do need to hear the Good News.

Peter J., there's a huge difference here.



I recently attended a conference on Orthodox missions and evangelism, and an Anglican attendee asked a similar question to one of the presenting priests. He asked, why do so many Orthodox converts in the United States seem to have previously been active members of other denominations? Why aren't the Orthodox doing more to reach out to the unchurched?

The priest responded that just like in New Testament times, when it was easiest to reach out to Jews who were expecting a Messiah, people with Christian backgrounds are more receptive to the message of the ancient Church. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be reaching out to everyone, but most converts will naturally come from Christian backgrounds.

I don't think Protestant missionaries are neglecting non-Christian countries, but maybe it's more difficult to show because these countries are less receptive to the Christian message. Also, if a Baptist really thought the Orthodox had it right, wouldn't he be Orthodox and not Baptist? I don't know why it would be wrong for missionaries to share with others what they consider to be a purer, more correct form of Christianity, even if the nation is already Christianized... Whether they're wrong or not, how can their sincerity be condemned?
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 08:20:18 PM »

I despise "Christian" missionaries....who travel to lands that are already Christian (namely Orthodox) to bring the Good News to them.

If you truly wish to be a missionary and to save lost souls, to bring them the Good News, to educate them about Christ, then go to the lands that are NOT Christian.

I know MANY Lutheran churches, Mormons, etc. first hand, that travel to Russia and Ukraine to save their lost souls.  Their souls are not lost.

Go and save the souls of the Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.  They truly do need to hear the Good News.

Peter J., there's a huge difference here.



I recently attended a conference on Orthodox missions and evangelism, and an Anglican attendee asked a similar question to one of the presenting priests. He asked, why do so many Orthodox converts in the United States seem to have previously been active members of other denominations? Why aren't the Orthodox doing more to reach out to the unchurched?

The priest responded that just like in New Testament times, when it was easiest to reach out to Jews who were expecting a Messiah, people with Christian backgrounds are more receptive to the message of the ancient Church. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be reaching out to everyone, but most converts will naturally come from Christian backgrounds.

I don't think Protestant missionaries are neglecting non-Christian countries, but maybe it's more difficult to show because these countries are less receptive to the Christian message. Also, if a Baptist really thought the Orthodox had it right, wouldn't he be Orthodox and not Baptist? I don't know why it would be wrong for missionaries to share with others what they consider to be a purer, more correct form of Christianity, even if the nation is already Christianized... Whether they're wrong or not, how can their sincerity be condemned?

I hear what you're saying, but honestly I don't think I would have started this thread if the original prayer request had been for "non-Orthodox missionaries to be kept at a distance" rather than for "Protestants to be kept at a distance". (For what it's worth.)
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 08:31:23 PM »

If someone believes something is true to expect them to NOT want it to be preserved, and to expect them to not to want people to maintain the true belief is what is outrageous. What do you want, them to believe something is true, yet pray "God, allow people to fall away from that truth." Its crazy actually.

It is not "tolerance" or whatever buzz word to believe something is true yet not care if people come to it or preserve, its hypocrisy.

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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 08:37:14 PM »

I recently attended a conference on Orthodox missions and evangelism, and an Anglican attendee asked a similar question to one of the presenting priests. He asked, why do so many Orthodox converts in the United States seem to have previously been active members of other denominations? Why aren't the Orthodox doing more to reach out to the unchurched?

The priest responded that just like in New Testament times, when it was easiest to reach out to Jews who were expecting a Messiah, people with Christian backgrounds are more receptive to the message of the ancient Church. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be reaching out to everyone, but most converts will naturally come from Christian backgrounds.

I don't think Protestant missionaries are neglecting non-Christian countries, but maybe it's more difficult to show because these countries are less receptive to the Christian message. Also, if a Baptist really thought the Orthodox had it right, wouldn't he be Orthodox and not Baptist? I don't know why it would be wrong for missionaries to share with others what they consider to be a purer, more correct form of Christianity, even if the nation is already Christianized... Whether they're wrong or not, how can their sincerity be condemned?

I hear what you're saying, but honestly I don't think I would have started this thread if the original prayer request had been for "non-Orthodox missionaries to be kept at a distance" rather than for "Protestants to be kept at a distance". (For what it's worth.)

It seemed like podkarpatska clarified in the original thread that he was talking about "missionaries" and "Protestants who rally their faithful to evangelize in Eastern Europe." So in that context, are your opinions on this issue the same as his?
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 10:25:31 PM »

I hear what you're saying, but honestly I don't think I would have started this thread if the original prayer request had been for "non-Orthodox missionaries to be kept at a distance" rather than for "Protestants to be kept at a distance". (For what it's worth.)

It seemed like podkarpatska clarified in the original thread that he was talking about "missionaries" and "Protestants who rally their faithful to evangelize in Eastern Europe." So in that context, are your opinions on this issue the same as his?

It doesn't really change my opinion. I admit that Protestants (I'm not one of them, btw, just in case you got the idea that I am) have done bad things, and I'm not trying to excuse or diminish that. But I take issue with anyone using that as a basis to pray that Protestants be kept at a distance. Also keep in mind that podkarpatska said "Protestants", not "Protestants and Catholics". But, to be fair, I would also take issue with a Protestant praying that Orthodox be kept at a distance.

Plus, I think that some of the things that have been said by Orthodox posters since I challenged podkarpatska are really very telling.
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« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2012, 10:40:08 PM »

...
But I take issue with anyone using that as a basis to pray that Protestants be kept at a distance.
...

P.S. It occurs to me that, somewhere in that last post, I should have acknowledged that podkarpatska said it needn't be taken as physical distance.

I'll reciprocate by saying it needn't be taken as physical distance in my own statement:

But, to be fair, I would also take issue with a Protestant praying that Orthodox be kept at a distance.
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« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2012, 10:52:03 PM »

What exactly is bothering you? People believe there is a Truth, and they don't want people to be led astray from it. Those are actually positive things despite how popular relativism has become. Not believing there is a truth, or caring whether people believe in it or not, and taking a "Who cares" approach is the thing that should cause concern for anyone.

God keep us in truth.

Even if people's entire lives are built in falsehood and they are happy with it, it is wrong, and it needs to change. In fact it will change one day whether anyone likes it or not, everything false (and everything evil) will come to an end one day simply because it is defective.
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2012, 11:14:17 PM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2012, 11:15:18 PM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2012, 11:24:11 PM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2012, 11:27:06 PM »



I should also acknowledge that Schultz has provided an argument as why it's just "Protestants" not "Protestants and Catholics":

Catholics "get a pass" because of their historical presence in those areas. 

That's not the strongest argument I've ever heard, but it's not the weakest either. I'll try to say more on it later.
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2012, 11:39:57 PM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

If they really believe in something, that it is true, then they should pray that missionaries don't come here and that people here don't convert. I have no problem at all with that. I've always fully expected that anyone that believes something is true also wants it to spread and not be diminished in any way.

The opposite does not make any sense at all. Why would someone believe something if they don't believe it is true? Why would they not want other people to also come to it? Why would they find it perfectly ok, without any sadness, if people left it?
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« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2012, 11:44:32 PM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

Peter, I understand that you feel hurt by this, but I think that one needs to be practical in thinking about this.

I've seen the damage American Evangelicals have done within my own family (in New Zealand and I have heard complaints of the same happening in Australia) and I can understand why an Orthodox believer wouldn't want them in an Orthodox country; the blind leading the blind into the individualism of some nebulous "invisible church" instead of sound Christian dogma; making issues where there are none. (Not that you don't find some Orthodox doing that, but at least we are glued together by dogma on who Christ is.)

My own nephew had been freewheeling with American Evangelicals for so long that he recently passed from this life rejecting the Trinity, rejecting that Christ is God. As long as he held onto his one heretical doctrine that set the small group (cult) he belonged to apart from other Christians; as long as he preached that and convinced each new convert that the historic Church was wrong, he would be open to anything that came out of an American publishing house. Anything that wasn't what ancient Christians believed.




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« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2012, 11:55:57 PM »

May God bless the Protestants and keep them...far away from us!   Wink
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« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 12:02:38 AM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

If they really believe in something, that it is true, then they should pray that missionaries don't come here and that people here don't convert. I have no problem at all with that. I've always fully expected that anyone that believes something is true also wants it to spread and not be diminished in any way.

The opposite does not make any sense at all. Why would someone believe something if they don't believe it is true? Why would they not want other people to also come to it? Why would they find it perfectly ok, without any sadness, if people left it?

Who can say what another person should pray? If someone believes that Catholic/Orthodox represent a threat to their salvation and the salvation of those they love, of course they will pray for whatever they feel compelled to pray for.

It's not prejudice to hope and pray that immigrants from other faiths convert to Christianity and don't spread their beliefs in a country, taking others away from the faith, but it is prejudice to think of and treat such people as if they were something less than oneself and not deserving of every right as a human being.
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« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 12:11:08 AM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

If they really believe in something, that it is true, then they should pray that missionaries don't come here and that people here don't convert. I have no problem at all with that. I've always fully expected that anyone that believes something is true also wants it to spread and not be diminished in any way.

The opposite does not make any sense at all. Why would someone believe something if they don't believe it is true? Why would they not want other people to also come to it? Why would they find it perfectly ok, without any sadness, if people left it?

Who can say what another person should pray? If someone believes that Catholic/Orthodox represent a threat to their salvation and the salvation of those they love, of course they will pray for whatever they feel compelled to pray for.

It's not prejudice to hope and pray that immigrants from other faiths convert to Christianity and don't spread their beliefs in a country, taking others away from the faith, but it is prejudice to think of and treat such people as if they were something less than oneself and not deserving of every right as a human being.

No one has suggested that they should be treated as something less or deserving of less rights. Believing people are wrong does not mean believing they are inferior or subhuman.
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« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2012, 12:19:23 AM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

If they really believe in something, that it is true, then they should pray that missionaries don't come here and that people here don't convert. I have no problem at all with that. I've always fully expected that anyone that believes something is true also wants it to spread and not be diminished in any way.

The opposite does not make any sense at all. Why would someone believe something if they don't believe it is true? Why would they not want other people to also come to it? Why would they find it perfectly ok, without any sadness, if people left it?

Who can say what another person should pray? If someone believes that Catholic/Orthodox represent a threat to their salvation and the salvation of those they love, of course they will pray for whatever they feel compelled to pray for.

It's not prejudice to hope and pray that immigrants from other faiths convert to Christianity and don't spread their beliefs in a country, taking others away from the faith, but it is prejudice to think of and treat such people as if they were something less than oneself and not deserving of every right as a human being.

No one has suggested that they should be treated as something less or deserving of less rights. Believing people are wrong does not mean believing they are inferior or subhuman.

Perhaps you have misunderstood my post.

I didn't say that anyone has suggested any such thing. Smiley I was saying what prejudice is - and it's not praying that American Evangelicals of a particular disruptive nature stay away from Orthodox countries. I wish they had stayed out of NZ and that's not an Orthodox country.
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« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2012, 12:23:04 AM »

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

If they really believe in something, that it is true, then they should pray that missionaries don't come here and that people here don't convert. I have no problem at all with that. I've always fully expected that anyone that believes something is true also wants it to spread and not be diminished in any way.

The opposite does not make any sense at all. Why would someone believe something if they don't believe it is true? Why would they not want other people to also come to it? Why would they find it perfectly ok, without any sadness, if people left it?

Just to make sure I understand your answer, does that mean you're okay with Protestants saying "Let's pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be kept away from the US?"
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« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2012, 12:23:54 AM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

Peter, I understand that you feel hurt by this, but I think that one needs to be practical in thinking about this.

I've seen the damage American Evangelicals have done within my own family (in New Zealand and I have heard complaints of the same happening in Australia) and I can understand why an Orthodox believer wouldn't want them in an Orthodox country; the blind leading the blind into the individualism of some nebulous "invisible church" instead of sound Christian dogma; making issues where there are none. (Not that you don't find some Orthodox doing that, but at least we are glued together by dogma on who Christ is.)

My own nephew had been freewheeling with American Evangelicals for so long that he recently passed from this life rejecting the Trinity, rejecting that Christ is God. As long as he held onto his one heretical doctrine that set the small group (cult) he belonged to apart from other Christians; as long as he preached that and convinced each new convert that the historic Church was wrong, he would be open to anything that came out of an American publishing house. Anything that wasn't what ancient Christians believed.

Thank you for that post, Riddikulus. I respect your opinion, and I think you expressed it very well; but I also think there are a lot of Protestants who aren't like that.

Anyhow, it's too late for me to think about this more tonight. (Being a New Englander, I have sometimes gotten up in the morning to discover that some discussion or other kept going strong for several hours after I turned in. Smiley)
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« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2012, 12:28:46 AM »

That's fair enough, but let me ask you the same question I asked FormerReformer: What do you think about Protestants praying for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be "kept at a distance" from the US?

If they really believe in something, that it is true, then they should pray that missionaries don't come here and that people here don't convert. I have no problem at all with that. I've always fully expected that anyone that believes something is true also wants it to spread and not be diminished in any way.

The opposite does not make any sense at all. Why would someone believe something if they don't believe it is true? Why would they not want other people to also come to it? Why would they find it perfectly ok, without any sadness, if people left it?

Just to make sure I understand your answer, does that mean you're okay with Protestants saying "Let's pray for Catholics and/or Orthodox to be kept away from the US?"

If you mean missionaries (as the person who said keep Protestants away from Eastern European countries was referring to), yes. If you mean people just wanting to live here, no. I don't believe it would be effective in the slightest, and I'm not afraid or offended by it at all.
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2012, 12:41:41 AM »

What exactly is bothering you?

Prejudice.

Its not "prejudice" to not want people to be led astray by people teaching different gospels.

Peter, I understand that you feel hurt by this, but I think that one needs to be practical in thinking about this.

I've seen the damage American Evangelicals have done within my own family (in New Zealand and I have heard complaints of the same happening in Australia) and I can understand why an Orthodox believer wouldn't want them in an Orthodox country; the blind leading the blind into the individualism of some nebulous "invisible church" instead of sound Christian dogma; making issues where there are none. (Not that you don't find some Orthodox doing that, but at least we are glued together by dogma on who Christ is.)

My own nephew had been freewheeling with American Evangelicals for so long that he recently passed from this life rejecting the Trinity, rejecting that Christ is God. As long as he held onto his one heretical doctrine that set the small group (cult) he belonged to apart from other Christians; as long as he preached that and convinced each new convert that the historic Church was wrong, he would be open to anything that came out of an American publishing house. Anything that wasn't what ancient Christians believed.

Thank you for that post, Riddikulus. I respect your opinion, and I think you expressed it very well; but I also think there are a lot of Protestants who aren't like that.

Anyhow, it's too late for me to think about this more tonight. (Being a New Englander, I have sometimes gotten up in the morning to discover that some discussion or other kept going strong for several hours after I turned in. Smiley)

Yes, I agree. Many Protestants are not like that, which is why I confined my remarks to Amercian Evangelicals. Smiley
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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2012, 02:10:24 AM »

I can't provide a reference exactly, but I remember a lot of hyper-evangelical anti-Catholic types calling Billy Graham a deceptive snake for refusing to encourage Catholics to join a "proper" church at his Crusades here in America, with these accusations going back to the '60s. Too many to list, sadly, and it has been so long since I read any of that tripe that I can't really remember a good place to start. He has always worked with the local churches of whatever denomination will cooperate in every city with his Crusades and has had a multi-denominational staff of volunteers on hand to handle those who walk the aisle.

And to the OP, yes, plenty of times, by the above mentioned types.

And how do you "feel" about that? Does it endear you to them?

Well, let's put it like this- I grew up in those churches and in those types of environments. While my mother might allow that Roman Catholics could be saved it would have been in spite of their Roman Catholicism, and RCs are therefore ripe for evangelizing because 99.9% of them are lost anyway. Orthodox are, for the most part, an unknown quantity, but one look at our icons puts the shields up, as it were, and points us out as ripe for targeting.

Having already grown up in that type of environment, I am used to it, I know what to expect. They believe I am a heretic (well, no, they don't believe in heresy except for JWs and Mormons, but at best I am in serious error), and must either be shown the error of my ways or shunned. Fine. People believe what they want to believe and do what they will do. It is not that attitude, precisely, that does not endear me (what drove me away had more to do with a lack of sacramental theology, weak ecclesiology, and grape juice). I prefer someone who knows what they believe and just happens to believe the exact opposite of what I believe, and can be honest about it to someone who does not believe what I believe, perhaps believes in nothing at all, and wants to convince me that at the end of the day we all believe the same thing anyway. Give me a hard-headed lowest of low church Baptist over a wishy-washy broadest of broad Church Episcopalian any day of the week.

But keep both of them FAR away from the Orthodox lands  laugh

(And no, there's no hypocrisy there when you apply it to America- we wanted separation of Church and State, we have it. Secular nation= not a Protestant land. Besides, the entire Union wasn't Protestant- Maryland was originally a Roman Catholic colony. And when you get down to it, most of Europe is traditionally Orthodox- Roman Catholicism and Protestantism for the Western lands are a mere 500 year each blip. If we proselytize we are merely reclaiming land that was ours- if Protestants proselytize they ruin a 2000 year tradition.)
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