Author Topic: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy  (Read 1911 times)

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Offline scamandrius

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Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« on: February 07, 2012, 01:55:56 AM »
last year, His Grace, Bishop BASIL of DOWAMA graced us (no pun intended) with his presence during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.  We chanters noticed him kneeling and making prostrations at points in the LIturgy which took us by surprise such as "Let my prayer arise" and the Lord's prayer. we, naturally followed his lead.  Today, I found this article which confirms what Bishop BASIL did, but it's from a Russian Orthodox Church.  http://www.stelizabeth.net/?q=node/190

My question:  Are the rubrics indicated here for people prostrating/kneeling the same for those who observe the modern Greek/Arabic typicon?  Thanks.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2012, 07:28:31 AM »
last year, His Grace, Bishop BASIL of DOWAMA graced us (no pun intended) with his presence during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.  We chanters noticed him kneeling and making prostrations at points in the LIturgy which took us by surprise such as "Let my prayer arise" and the Lord's prayer. we, naturally followed his lead.  Today, I found this article which confirms what Bishop BASIL did, but it's from a Russian Orthodox Church.  http://www.stelizabeth.net/?q=node/190

My question:  Are the rubrics indicated here for people prostrating/kneeling the same for those who observe the modern Greek/Arabic typicon?  Thanks.

I read the link. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never seen that many prostrations done during any Liturgy. Ever.
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 09:36:27 AM »
Is it possible that the churches who were under the Ottoman Muslim yoke changed in part because of a perceived need to have as few things in common with the Muslims as possible?

Offline mike

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 11:34:25 AM »
Why wouldn't be there any prostrations as it's neither Saturday nor Sunday?

Offline David Leon

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 11:40:00 AM »
In an OCA parish in the southern US,  and this is pretty close to the practice in our parish.  The linked article has a couple of prostrations that we don't do, but in general this is very familiar to me. 

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 11:45:29 AM »
I don't think I'll be able to do prostrations in my church - we usually have the Pre-Sanctified Liturgies in the chapel, and it's a really small space in there. If we try, there will be some awkward nose-to-pew moments.  :)
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 11:54:36 AM »
last year, His Grace, Bishop BASIL of DOWAMA graced us (no pun intended) with his presence during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy.  We chanters noticed him kneeling and making prostrations at points in the LIturgy which took us by surprise such as "Let my prayer arise" and the Lord's prayer. we, naturally followed his lead.  Today, I found this article which confirms what Bishop BASIL did, but it's from a Russian Orthodox Church.  http://www.stelizabeth.net/?q=node/190

My question:  Are the rubrics indicated here for people prostrating/kneeling the same for those who observe the modern Greek/Arabic typicon?  Thanks.
This is done in my parish, too, though we were given a more Russian typicon (our parish entered the Bulgarian diocese 12 years ago). I had been to an Antiochian church for Pre-Sanctified two years ago, but I can't remember if they did any prostrations outside of St. Ephrem's prayers. Those pesky pews get in the way!  :D

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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 05:14:27 PM »
Is it possible that the churches who were under the Ottoman Muslim yoke changed in part because of a perceived need to have as few things in common with the Muslims as possible?

More likely the Russians have come up with as many ways as possible to complicate things which need not be complicated, as they have a tendency to do. Nothing particularly wrong with that, of course, it's just not how the Greeks do things.

The Greeks are often accused by the Slavs of taking things out of the Liturgy which were never there to begin with.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 05:27:00 PM »
Is it possible that the churches who were under the Ottoman Muslim yoke changed in part because of a perceived need to have as few things in common with the Muslims as possible?

More likely the Russians have come up with as many ways as possible to complicate things which need not be complicated, as they have a tendency to do. Nothing particularly wrong with that, of course, it's just not how the Greeks do things.

The Greeks are often accused by the Slavs of taking things out of the Liturgy which were never there to begin with.

Make that Russians - not Slavs as a whole - as Ukrainians and others often follow the older Greek customs. When the unia transformed many of them into Eastern Catholics they were called, after all - Greek Catholics - not Russian Catholics for that very reason!  ;)

Offline witega

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 05:29:30 PM »
I think we need to see a Greek or Arabic Old World Typikon before anybody starts making generalizations. It seems unlikely that Bishop Basil would would go around following the Slavic Typikon on this 'just because'. If the prostrations are not in the Old World Typikon, akimori is right that it is at least as, if not more likely that the Russians added it than that the Greeks and Arabs removed it. On the other hand, if it's in the Old World Typikon, it's entirely possible that the practice changed in North America for the reason several people have alluded to--it's very difficult to do lots of prostrations in a sanctuary with lots of pews.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 05:41:34 PM »
That is my bishop and we do prostrations on Presanctified Liturgies, most notably during the prayer of St. Ephraim.

we did kneel at other times.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 05:42:42 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 05:54:48 PM »
I think we need to see a Greek or Arabic Old World Typikon before anybody starts making generalizations. It seems unlikely that Bishop Basil would would go around following the Slavic Typikon on this 'just because'. If the prostrations are not in the Old World Typikon, akimori is right that it is at least as, if not more likely that the Russians added it than that the Greeks and Arabs removed it. On the other hand, if it's in the Old World Typikon, it's entirely possible that the practice changed in North America for the reason several people have alluded to--it's very difficult to do lots of prostrations in a sanctuary with lots of pews.

Archbishop Basil Krivoshein, Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium had written a treatise on the differences between the Greek and Russian practices in 1975. I read it in the Preachers' Institute at http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/25/some-differences-between-greek-and-russian-divine-services-and-their-significance/. It seems that in some instances, the Russians had continued the older Greek practices while the Greeks changed theirs. So, it is not really a matter of Old Country practice versus the practice in the United States.

Offline augustin717

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 06:00:41 PM »
I'm mildly annoyed that few seem to realize that besides the Greek and Russian practices, there is also, at least one more, probably less unified now but still recognizable: the tradition of the churches once part of the Habsburg/Dual Monarchy.

Offline mike

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 06:04:29 PM »
I'm mildly annoyed that few seem to realize that besides the Greek and Russian practices, there is also, at least one more, probably less unified now but still recognizable: the tradition of the churches once part of the Habsburg/Dual Monarchy.

What is something in between that two...

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 06:06:50 PM »
I'm mildly annoyed that few seem to realize that besides the Greek and Russian practices, there is also, at least one more, probably less unified now but still recognizable: the tradition of the churches once part of the Habsburg/Dual Monarchy.

And that tradition is familiar to folks who reside in North America and constitute most of the members of this blog?

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 06:58:27 PM »
I'm mildly annoyed that few seem to realize that besides the Greek and Russian practices, there is also, at least one more, probably less unified now but still recognizable: the tradition of the churches once part of the Habsburg/Dual Monarchy.

I wasn't aware they had different traditions.  Do you have a link or something, in order for me to learn more?
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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 07:02:57 PM »
Archbishop Basil Krivoshein, Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium had written a treatise on the differences between the Greek and Russian practices in 1975. I read it in the Preachers' Institute at http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/25/some-differences-between-greek-and-russian-divine-services-and-their-significance/. It seems that in some instances, the Russians had continued the older Greek practices while the Greeks changed theirs. So, it is not really a matter of Old Country practice versus the practice in the United States.

That article has plenty of errors in it. I would not regard it as authoritative.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 07:11:59 PM »
Of one thing I think we can all be safely assured on this issue. There will be no score book at the Final Judgment regarding the number, depth and style of your physical prostrations in life. There will surely be a subjective analysis of the same, but objective? I hope not.

Offline witega

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 07:17:49 PM »
I think we need to see a Greek or Arabic Old World Typikon before anybody starts making generalizations. It seems unlikely that Bishop Basil would would go around following the Slavic Typikon on this 'just because'. If the prostrations are not in the Old World Typikon, akimori is right that it is at least as, if not more likely that the Russians added it than that the Greeks and Arabs removed it. On the other hand, if it's in the Old World Typikon, it's entirely possible that the practice changed in North America for the reason several people have alluded to--it's very difficult to do lots of prostrations in a sanctuary with lots of pews.

Archbishop Basil Krivoshein, Archbishop of Brussels and Belgium had written a treatise on the differences between the Greek and Russian practices in 1975. I read it in the Preachers' Institute at http://preachersinstitute.com/2011/06/25/some-differences-between-greek-and-russian-divine-services-and-their-significance/. It seems that in some instances, the Russians had continued the older Greek practices while the Greeks changed theirs. So, it is not really a matter of Old Country practice versus the practice in the United States.

My point is that so far, we don't seem to know what the "Old Country practice" is, at least as regards the Greeks and Antiochians. We know what the practice our North American posters are familiar with is, and we know what the Russian (Slavic?) Old Country practice is. But the original question was based on the fact that Bishop Basil did not follow the 'normal' NA Antiochian practice as most of us would think of it--so was he using, for some reason, the Russian practice, or was he representing the actual Old Country Antiochian practice?
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 07:42:34 PM »
I'm mildly annoyed that few seem to realize that besides the Greek and Russian practices, there is also, at least one more, probably less unified now but still recognizable: the tradition of the churches once part of the Habsburg/Dual Monarchy.

I wasn't aware they had different traditions.  Do you have a link or something, in order for me to learn more?

I'd also like to cure my ignorance!
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 07:43:34 PM »
Is it possible that the churches who were under the Ottoman Muslim yoke changed in part because of a perceived need to have as few things in common with the Muslims as possible?

More likely the Russians have come up with as many ways as possible to complicate things which need not be complicated, as they have a tendency to do. Nothing particularly wrong with that, of course, it's just not how the Greeks do things.

The Greeks are often accused by the Slavs of taking things out of the Liturgy which were never there to begin with.

Make that Russians - not Slavs as a whole - as Ukrainians and others often follow the older Greek customs. When the unia transformed many of them into Eastern Catholics they were called, after all - Greek Catholics - not Russian Catholics for that very reason!  ;)

Apologies for lumping you all in together like that.

I know that, as a Greek, I usually feel quite at home in a Serbian or Bulgarian parish, so shouldn't make such generalisations.
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Offline katherineofdixie

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Re: Prostrations/kneelings during Pre-Sanctified Liturgy
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 11:24:20 AM »
I don't think I'll be able to do prostrations in my church - we usually have the Pre-Sanctified Liturgies in the chapel, and it's a really small space in there. If we try, there will be some awkward nose-to-pew moments.  :)

Well, that's what you get for having pews!

Is outrage!

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