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Offline JamesR

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The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« on: February 06, 2012, 04:34:04 PM »
This thread in no way implies any disrespect to his Grace Bartholomew, but is simply my opinion about the office of Ecumenical Patriarchate. In my opinion, the Ecumenical Patriarchate office is a bit obsolete right now in Istantbul. I mean, let's be honest, there are not very many Christians under the jurisdiction, there is really no more political significance and it is rather a dangerous place for like the capital of Orthodoxy to be located at. Personally, I do not think that an Ecumenical Patriarchate is needed at all anymore, because of the risk of schism, but, I at least think that we should reconsider this matter, possibly under a new Ecumenical Council, and move the Ecumenical Patriarchate to somewhere else that is more relevant to the world today. Why not Moscow? I believe that there are the most Orthodox Christians under the jurisdiction of Moscow and not to mention the ROCOR and the OCA which also fall under the jurisdiction of Moscow. It is also safer than Istantbul and is a major, capital city in the world. Or, better yet, I know that many people will laugh at this, but why not establish an American Patriarchate and make this new Patriarchate the Ecumenical Patriarchate 'First among equals'. I mean, let's face it, the United States is pretty much the capital of the world and is like the new Constantinople of today; it is powerful, safe, somewhat stable and seems like a good, safe location for the capital of Orthodoxy to be located at. What are your thoughts about this? Keep in mind that I barely know anything about the official Canons and other factors that play a part in this, I am only speaking from personal opinion.
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Offline mike

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 04:37:57 PM »

Offline Maria

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 04:51:54 PM »
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Offline Maria

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 04:56:38 PM »
This thread in no way implies any disrespect to his Grace Bartholomew, but is simply my opinion about the office of Ecumenical Patriarchate. In my opinion, the Ecumenical Patriarchate office is a bit obsolete right now in Istantbul. I mean, let's be honest, there are not very many Christians under the jurisdiction, there is really no more political significance and it is rather a dangerous place for like the capital of Orthodoxy to be located at. Personally, I do not think that an Ecumenical Patriarchate is needed at all anymore, because of the risk of schism, but, I at least think that we should reconsider this matter, possibly under a new Ecumenical Council, and move the Ecumenical Patriarchate to somewhere else that is more relevant to the world today. Why not Moscow? I believe that there are the most Orthodox Christians under the jurisdiction of Moscow and not to mention the ROCOR and the OCA which also fall under the jurisdiction of Moscow. It is also safer than Istantbul and is a major, capital city in the world. Or, better yet, I know that many people will laugh at this, but why not establish an American Patriarchate and make this new Patriarchate the Ecumenical Patriarchate 'First among equals'. I mean, let's face it, the United States is pretty much the capital of the world and is like the new Constantinople of today; it is powerful, safe, somewhat stable and seems like a good, safe location for the capital of Orthodoxy to be located at. What are your thoughts about this? Keep in mind that I barely know anything about the official Canons and other factors that play a part in this, I am only speaking from personal opinion.

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Offline Schultz

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 04:58:03 PM »
This thread in no way implies any disrespect to his Grace Bartholomew, but is simply my opinion about the office of Ecumenical Patriarchate. In my opinion, the Ecumenical Patriarchate office is a bit obsolete right now in Istantbul. I mean, let's be honest, there are not very many Christians under the jurisdiction, there is really no more political significance and it is rather a dangerous place for like the capital of Orthodoxy to be located at. Personally, I do not think that an Ecumenical Patriarchate is needed at all anymore, because of the risk of schism, but, I at least think that we should reconsider this matter, possibly under a new Ecumenical Council, and move the Ecumenical Patriarchate to somewhere else that is more relevant to the world today. Why not Moscow? I believe that there are the most Orthodox Christians under the jurisdiction of Moscow and not to mention the ROCOR and the OCA which also fall under the jurisdiction of Moscow. It is also safer than Istantbul and is a major, capital city in the world. Or, better yet, I know that many people will laugh at this, but why not establish an American Patriarchate and make this new Patriarchate the Ecumenical Patriarchate 'First among equals'. I mean, let's face it, the United States is pretty much the capital of the world and is like the new Constantinople of today; it is powerful, safe, somewhat stable and seems like a good, safe location for the capital of Orthodoxy to be located at. What are your thoughts about this? Keep in mind that I barely know anything about the official Canons and other factors that play a part in this, I am only speaking from personal opinion.

There are plenty Orthodox Christians under the omophorion of the EP, the GOA and ACROD, for two. 
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 05:05:32 PM »
I remember Met. Phillip mentioning that the EP should move to the USA and have the US churches fall under his perview. I also remember many on these forums criticizing that idea.

Quote
I mean, let's be honest, there are not very many Christians under the jurisdiction
20,000,000 folks might disagree.

Quote
Why not Moscow
I think there is a better possibility of me pooping out a winning lottery ticket being held by a 4 winged frog than the EP moving to Moscow.

Quote
the United States is pretty much the capital of the world
Im not trying to be a jerk, but the USA is a country, so which city would he preside? No matter which major city, you're gonna have a little problem of the bishop (or or a multitude thereof) that already live there.

To play Devil's Advocate, could not the Patriarch of Antioch be in the same difficulty? Damascus isn't really friendly to Christians, and if Assad gets the boot, you can rest assured that the US will sit by while Islamist thugs take over, in which case Damascus will be REALLY bad.


Quote
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PP
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 05:08:30 PM by primuspilus »
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 05:09:58 PM »
While the EP is struggling in Turkey, it has many overseas holdings and is very influential. The historicity of the EP in Constantinople cannot be overlooked either.

That said, I would be open to a change of EP location. If some new Ecumenical Council decided to move it, then I would be okay with that. Moscow, I think, would be a good option but again it is not my concern to decide who the "first among equals" (if anyone) should be. This is the purview of our bishops, not us.

I do hope that an American Patriarchate is formed within my lifetime, however I think that the American Church is still very young and shouldn't be placed too highly on the diptychs, no matter how "safe" the U.S. may be...our church is by no means mighty within the Orthodox world. I certainly don't think we should be the EP (and, as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).
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Offline Manalive

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 05:14:41 PM »
1. I don't see Greeks being all to happy giving the title of Ecumenical Patriarch to Moscow.

2. America is not the center of Orthodoxy and represents a very small percentage of the Orthodox world. (Although you could say this about Constantinople with some Bishops not even having people in their diocese in parts of Turkey.)


If it's possible without opening another can of worms, it would be interesting to get comments about this article by St. John Maximovitch on the EP: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles-2009/Maximovitch-The-Decline-Of-The-Patriarchate-Of-Constantinople.php
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 12:08:33 PM »
Not to mention you can't just ignore the church canons.

While in the US the Assembly of Bishops are drawing new diocesan lines, merging diocese, moving bishops etc... (or getting preliminary plans to) That is because we are already in an uncanonical situation.

Over in Europe and Asia, where the lines have existed for thousands of years, you can't just suddenly move a main bishop or his diocese.

This certainly was done with the Patriarch of Antioch, yet there were dire circumstances surrounding that. The Ecumenical Patriarch (I would say) is no longer under such dire circumstances. While the Turks are still far from friendly, they are still making moves towards secularizing and even restoring iconography in some of the old churches (Savior in Chora being one example).

There isn't any reason to relocate the Ecumenical Patriarch, and he is first among equals, and always will be unless the Roman Patriarch returns to Orthodoxy. That is just how it is, you can't just change it.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 12:45:50 PM »
I think this is only something that should be considered if the Patriarchate (God forbid) become completely eradicated from Turkey.

Offline AWR

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 01:41:12 PM »
I have three comments on this topic:

•   No need to worry.  The fullness on the Orthodox Church is in your parish under your bishop.  The way bishops are “ranked” with other bishops and associate with each other is of lesser importance than almost anything else of the Church. 

•   Another point, the title “Ecumenical Patriarch” has nothing to do with the “first among equals” standing, because I believe, the title was given to him about five hundred years before the schism with the bishop of Rome.

•   And, my last point, I think that the Church has learned its lesson my now.  First we had Rome, then we had the “New Rome”,  and then we had what some called the “Third Rome” and others called the “Last Rome”.  Romes don’t last, and are outdated. 

Offline JamesR

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 08:55:12 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

America is not the center of Orthodoxy and represents a very small percentage of the Orthodox world.

You missed the point. It is not the center of Orthodoxy but it is the center of the world. Political factors are always going to play a role in where the Ecumenical Patriarchate is located; in fact, they have in the past. I think that the fact that America is a political capital and is a very safe and tolerant country should definitely be one of the factors taken into consideration by the Patriarchates. But, nevertheless, this business belongs to our Bishops and we ought to let them decide.
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Offline mike

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 09:08:59 PM »
But, nevertheless, this business belongs to our Bishops and we ought to let them decide.

So why did you start this thread?

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 10:34:30 PM »
I have three comments on this topic:

•   No need to worry.  The fullness on the Orthodox Church is in your parish under your bishop.  The way bishops are “ranked” with other bishops and associate with each other is of lesser importance than almost anything else of the Church. 
Totally agree.

Quote
•   Another point, the title “Ecumenical Patriarch” has nothing to do with the “first among equals” standing, because I believe, the title was given to him about five hundred years before the schism with the bishop of Rome.
Beg to disagree; this is a self-styled title that was accepted by the heads of the other local churches and is directly related with the fact that Constantinople was the Imperial capital since the fall of Rome in the 5th Century.

Quote
•   And, my last point, I think that the Church has learned its lesson my now.  First we had Rome, then we had the “New Rome”,  and then we had what some called the “Third Rome” and others called the “Last Rome”.  Romes don’t last, and are outdated. 
All these appelations are euphemisms for "first among equals." However, the way that Rome, Constantinople and Moscow developed, their bishops became some sort of super-bishops--that is, more than first among equals.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 10:36:03 PM »
I remember Met. Phillip mentioning that the EP should move to the USA and have the US churches fall under his perview. I also remember many on these forums criticizing that idea.

Quote
I mean, let's be honest, there are not very many Christians under the jurisdiction
20,000,000 folks might disagree.

Quote
Why not Moscow
I think there is a better possibility of me pooping out a winning lottery ticket being held by a 4 winged frog than the EP moving to Moscow.

Quote
the United States is pretty much the capital of the world
Im not trying to be a jerk, but the USA is a country, so which city would he preside? No matter which major city, you're gonna have a little problem of the bishop (or or a multitude thereof) that already live there.

To play Devil's Advocate, could not the Patriarch of Antioch be in the same difficulty? Damascus isn't really friendly to Christians, and if Assad gets the boot, you can rest assured that the US will sit by while Islamist thugs take over, in which case Damascus will be REALLY bad.


Quote
Join the Genuine Church of Greece (GOC) and you will not have to worry about the EP.
*sigh* here we go.....


PP

I thought the figure was about 8.5 million.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2012, 10:39:50 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

America is not the center of Orthodoxy and represents a very small percentage of the Orthodox world.

You missed the point. It is not the center of Orthodoxy but it is the center of the world. Political factors are always going to play a role in where the Ecumenical Patriarchate is located; in fact, they have in the past. I think that the fact that America is a political capital and is a very safe and tolerant country should definitely be one of the factors taken into consideration by the Patriarchates. But, nevertheless, this business belongs to our Bishops and we ought to let them decide.

We are not like the RC who can nullify a marriage even if there are children. No, the OCA is autocephalous and canonical. And, there is at least one canon that speaks against foreign bishops, meaning that you cannot unbreak the egg and put OCA back under Moscow.

Offline Agabus

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2012, 10:53:22 PM »
•   No need to worry.  The fullness on the Orthodox Church is in your parish under your bishop. The way bishops are “ranked” with other bishops and associate with each other is of lesser importance than almost anything else of the Church.  
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2012, 11:33:44 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

It is true that they do not regard us as such. However, we regard ourselves as such. So does Moscow. Our church was the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate as a Mission to Alaska. We have grown into a national church all our own with our own clergy, language and traditions. I love the Russian Church, but I'm not Russian and I'm not in the Russian Church.

Regardless of how much I like or dislike the Patriarch in Moscow...he is not my bishop.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2012, 11:36:15 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

It is true that they do not regard us as such. However, we regard ourselves as such. So does Moscow. Our church was the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate as a Mission to Alaska. We have grown into a national church all our own with our own clergy, language and traditions. I love the Russian Church, but I'm not Russian and I'm not in the Russian Church.

Regardless of how much I like or dislike the Patriarch in Moscow...he is not my bishop.

If your primate and synod do not answer to Moscow, you are autocephalous. The "Greek" churches can refuse to accept that if they so choose, though I think it will ultimately result in their embarrassment.
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2012, 11:42:42 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

It is true that they do not regard us as such. However, we regard ourselves as such. So does Moscow. Our church was the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate as a Mission to Alaska. We have grown into a national church all our own with our own clergy, language and traditions. I love the Russian Church, but I'm not Russian and I'm not in the Russian Church.

Regardless of how much I like or dislike the Patriarch in Moscow...he is not my bishop.

If your primate and synod do not answer to Moscow, you are autocephalous. The "Greek" churches can refuse to accept that if they so choose, though I think it will ultimately result in their embarrassment.

Even if the Ecumenical Patriarch(ate) had to officially approve of a grant of autocephaly for a Church to technically be so, it doesn't really matter.  Moscow has sworn off any responsibility for the OCA and the OCA has acted, and will continue to do so, without any sort of request for permission from Moscow.  It is, de facto if not de jure, an autocephalous Church.
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Offline Cavaradossi

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2012, 11:50:59 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

It is true that they do not regard us as such. However, we regard ourselves as such. So does Moscow. Our church was the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate as a Mission to Alaska. We have grown into a national church all our own with our own clergy, language and traditions. I love the Russian Church, but I'm not Russian and I'm not in the Russian Church.

Regardless of how much I like or dislike the Patriarch in Moscow...he is not my bishop.

If your primate and synod do not answer to Moscow, you are autocephalous. The "Greek" churches can refuse to accept that if they so choose, though I think it will ultimately result in their embarrassment.

Even if the Ecumenical Patriarch(ate) had to officially approve of a grant of autocephaly for a Church to technically be so, it doesn't really matter.  Moscow has sworn off any responsibility for the OCA and the OCA has acted, and will continue to do so, without any sort of request for permission from Moscow.  It is, de facto if not de jure, an autocephalous Church.

This seems to be how it often works in Orthodoxy. Things are already in effect de facto long before they become de jure.
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Offline akimori makoto

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2012, 11:56:58 PM »
as a member of the OCA, I must correct your statement. We are not under the omophor of Moscow. My primate is His Beatitude Jonah of Washington, D.C., Metropolitan of All America and Canada).

I am OCA too. But actually, the Ecumenical Patriarchate does not regard us as autocepholous and still thinks that we are under the jurisdiction of Moscow. I personally feel more inclined to believe him and I have no problem being under Moscow.

It is true that they do not regard us as such. However, we regard ourselves as such. So does Moscow. Our church was the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate as a Mission to Alaska. We have grown into a national church all our own with our own clergy, language and traditions. I love the Russian Church, but I'm not Russian and I'm not in the Russian Church.

Regardless of how much I like or dislike the Patriarch in Moscow...he is not my bishop.

If your primate and synod do not answer to Moscow, you are autocephalous. The "Greek" churches can refuse to accept that if they so choose, though I think it will ultimately result in their embarrassment.

Even if the Ecumenical Patriarch(ate) had to officially approve of a grant of autocephaly for a Church to technically be so, it doesn't really matter.  Moscow has sworn off any responsibility for the OCA and the OCA has acted, and will continue to do so, without any sort of request for permission from Moscow.  It is, de facto if not de jure, an autocephalous Church.

This seems to be how it often works in Orthodoxy. Things are already in effect de facto long before they become de jure.

Indeed.

I sometimes think that Church "law" can be divined simply by observing what the Churches do, in actual fact: meaning the de facto/de jure distinction is somewhat inappropriately applied, in any event.
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 12:31:15 AM »
i think, from what my priest said, the oca is really weird

the MP recognizes the OCA as autcephalous, but we in ROCOR dont.

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2012, 02:42:25 AM »
i think, from what my priest said, the oca is really weird

the MP recognizes the OCA as autcephalous, but we in ROCOR dont.

well ROCOR is under the omophor of Moscow and was only reconciled in recent years. Interestingly, the ROCOR
bishops in the Assembly are considered representatives of Moscow.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2012, 06:26:41 AM »
i think, from what my priest said, the oca is really weird

the MP recognizes the OCA as autcephalous, but we in ROCOR dont.
ROCOR isn't in a position to recognize any autocephalous Church since it was reunited to Moscow.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline primuspilus

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2012, 11:38:15 AM »
i think, from what my priest said, the oca is really weird

the MP recognizes the OCA as autcephalous, but we in ROCOR dont.
ROCOR isn't in a position to recognize any autocephalous Church since it was reunited to Moscow.
Something tells me that wasn't a major sticking point on reunion  :laugh:

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Ecumenical Patriarchate
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2012, 12:25:27 PM »
i think, from what my priest said, the oca is really weird

the MP recognizes the OCA as autcephalous, but we in ROCOR dont.
ROCOR isn't in a position to recognize any autocephalous Church since it was reunited to Moscow.
Something tells me that wasn't a major sticking point on reunion  :laugh:

PP
Acutally, many in ROCOR, here and elsewhere, have argued it was (after all, ROCOR's center is in the OCA's canonical territory).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth