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erracht
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« on: September 28, 2004, 12:50:58 PM »

The god that Moslems worship is called Allah, which is an Arabic word I think; sometimes they say "Allah" and sometimes "God". It interests me, what do Arab Christians say for God - Allah or some other word?

It also interests me: are the Jewish word for God, "Elohim", and "Allah" from the same root word?

From an Orthodox standpoint, would it be better for Christians (I.E. more pleasing to the true God) to call the god worshipped by Moslems "God" or "Allah"?Do Moslims worship the same god as (albeit heretically understood) or a different one than Christians?
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2004, 12:54:54 PM »

This was discussed some time ago; I'd suggest you look in the archives.  The word Allah refers to God in both Muslim and Christian usage, just like Theos referrs to both Zeus and the Christian God in Greek.

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« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2004, 01:08:32 PM »

Erracht,

I've seen etymological arguments to the point that there is an ancient connection between "Al'lah" and "El" or "Eloah" in Hebrew.  I do not know enough about either Arabic or Hebrew (nor have I read enough on the topic) to say much more than this, regarding any possible connection.

In defense of Muslims (and the Arab Christians who use the term Al'lah to speak of "God") against the accusation that "Al'lah is nothing but an Arabian lunar deity" because of what I'd call "previous usage" of the name Al'lah for one of the chief deities adored by pagan Arabs, I'd like to remind everyone that the Hebrew names for God found in the Old Testament are (save for perhaps the Tetragrammaton - YHWH) without exception found in pre-Old Testament Canaanite/Akkaddian/pan-Levantine use as ways of speaking of various deities, including those who have a roughly analogous status to the Israelite God (for example, the Canaanite "father of the gods", El).  I find it particularly obnoxious when ill-informed funda-gelicals point fingers at Arabs who worship "Al'lah" and say they worship nothing more than a pagan lunar god (which is manifestly not true), when if such reasoning is fair, it could equally say Christians and Jews worship a conflation of semitic/hamitic deities.

Anastasios is right in pointing to the hellenic example of Theos.  In the end, these are all just names, words.  While it is true that words are important, they are ultimatly just labels, and hardly unchanging ones at that, whose meaning is dependent upon context and their relationship to other words.  We are not "worshippers of the name".  For while we call this existance beyond existance, this being beyond being "God", it's just a name, it's all just words.

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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2004, 01:19:55 PM »

The following is from the website of Answering Christianity, which is an islamic "service'  to Christians under the title
Islam: The True Religion of GOD Almighty

In their main page we read about how legitimate it was for Mohammad to marry a nine year old girl:

"Since the only females left fit for marriage and wholesome relations were prepubescent virgins, a Jewish law concerning child marriage was enacted. That law is found in the Babylonian Talmud:

"Rabbi Joseph said, 'Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.'

Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father's approval, by sexual intercourse.

Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: 'A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.' "

After doing some research come to find out that they have taken this portion from the Talmud and deceived people with it in that they do not explain the context. Here is what we need to know about it and what it really says. By misrepresenting the portions from the Talmud they obviously try to put the Jews in a perverted light. Why anyhow would a muslim try to justify Mohammad's sex with a minor of 9 years of age by a Jewish law?

Here is what the Talmud actually states in three references:
 
Raba said: Come and hear: A maiden aged three years and a day may be betrothed by intercourse, and if the yabam has intercourse with her, he acquires her. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her: [if menstruant,] she defiles him who has connections with her,  Kiddushin 10(a)
 
A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabits with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; [if a niddah] she defiles him who has connection with her, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies, Sanhedrin 55(b)
 
 R. Jeremiah of Difti said: We also learnt the following: A maiden aged three years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition, and if her deceased husband's brother cohabited with her, she becomes his. The penalty of adultery may be incurred through her; [if a niddah,] she defiles him who has connection with her, so that he in turn defiles that upon which he lies.  Sanhedrin 69 (a)
 
The Hebrew word for young woman is translated maiden.  Niddah is Hebrew for Menstrual which brings out what is really be discussed.  A young woman (maiden) becomes menstrual around 12-13 years of age.  In Judaic custom, 3 years and a day after a woman's period begins she may be married.  Also, remember that a girl may be betrothed at literally 3-4 yrs of age in an arraigned marriage but she will not wed until maiden +3 years and one day of age (Approx. 15yrs old).  No three year old could possible menstruate.  The WEB page took this quote entirely out of context.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm



http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah6.htm

Were there Jewish and Christian Arabs before Islam?

In the city of Madina in what we call today "Saudi Arabia", there were three main religions:  Idol worshiping, Judaism and Christianity.  The name of the Jewish leader who also was the Highest Priest in Madina before Islam came was "Abdallah Bin-Saba".  His Arabic name was not "AbdElohim Bin-Saba" or "AbdElloi Bin-Saba" or "AbdGOD Bin-Saba".  The reason why his first name was "Abdallah" is because the Arab Jews in Madina used the word "Allah" for GOD in their Holy Scriptures.   The word "Allah" did indeed exist in the Arabic Talmud and the other Jewish Holy Scriptures.

Also, the Christians' Arabic Bible at that time used the word "Allah" for GOD.  Even today's Christians' Arabic Bibles use the word "Allah" for GOD.   Today in the Middle East, Christians sometimes name their kids "Abdallah".  Also there are Christian families who's last names is "Abdallah".

In today's Arabic Bible, the word "Allah" is used for both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

 

Most Recent Discoveries:

Recently Father Pecerillo, a famous Franciscan Archeologist, found more than twenty churches in Madaba at the south of Jordan. From the Forth Century we found houses in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine with this inscription in Arabic :"Bismi Allah al-Rahman al-Raheem" which shows that even people before Islam used this Holy name, "Allah", for GOD Almighty, which proves that the name of GOD Almighty in the Noble Quran, "Allah", is the correct one.  This also proves to us that the Bible is not all found.  There are still missing pieces in it that disprove trinity.

Further discoveries from an Arabic Roman Catholic web site at http://www.al-bushra.org/arbhrtg/arbxtn04.htm: (This webpage tries to tell you that the first Christians were Arabs and that it would befit us all to learn Arabic and that the first 'Fathers' were Arabs etc. etc.  This whole website is full of lies which a person that is not cognicent of the historic truth can not discern and is miserably mislead.)

quote: Recently also, Father Pecerillo, a famous Franciscan Archeologist, found from the Forth Century (200 years before Islam) houses in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine with this inscription in Arabic :"Bismi Allah al-Rahman al-Raheem" which means in Arabic "In the name of ALLAH, the Most Merciful and the Most Gracious", which again proves that His Holy name existed before Islam and it also proves the True Oneness of Allah Almighty and refutes Trinity.  

Here is an analysis to the Arabic words above:

Bismi - Ism = name. Bism = In name, because "Bi" = in.  Bismi = In the name of, because the "i" at the end of the word must be added because of the "Bi" addition.  When we added "Bi" to the word "Ism", then the "i" must also be added to the end of "Bism" if and only if the word "Bism" is followed by another word, which makes it become all one word "Bismi" which means "In the name of".

Allah - Allah is the name of Allah Almighty.  Bismi Allah sounds as "bismillah", but two seperate words.  "Bismi" is one seperate word and "Allah" is another seperate word.

Al-Rahman - Al = the.  Rahman = merciful.   Rahman is derived from Rahmah, which means mercy.  Al-Rahman is one word.   It is not like English two words "the merciful".  No, in Arabic, "the" is combined with the word both are written as one word; "Al-Rahman".

Al-Raheem - Al = the. Raheem = gracious.  Al-Raheem = the gracious.  Again, Al-Raheem is written as one Arabic word, and not two.

"Bismi Allah Al-Rahman Al-Raheem" = "In the name of Allah the Most Merciful and the Most Gracious".

« Last Edit: September 29, 2004, 11:06:32 PM by Shiloah » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2004, 01:38:59 PM »

The islamic website Answering Christianity has a counterpart in
Answering Islam. This is a website done by evangelical Christians at
http://answering-islam.de/Main/index.html

Does the Orthodox Church have anything similar ?
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2004, 01:42:00 PM »

As far as websites, not that I know of.  Several books are available from Regina Orthodox Press, however.

If anyone wanted to write apologetic articles against Islam we would be willing to host them, as long as they are not too polemical.

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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2004, 01:56:05 PM »

Not an orthodox article, but a good one - no polemics. A comparison between the Quran and Holy bible verses about what it means to be a prophet of God.
(http://www.branchofdavid.org/islam.htm#islam)

 For Islam to be a religion, Muhammad must be a prophet of God. The message of Muhammad in the Koran is the foundation of Islam. This is seen in the confession to be a Muslim. This is called the Shahadatain. The second part of the Shahadatain follows: “...that Muhammad is His messenger to all human beings till the Day of Judgment.”

    By Messenger, the Koran means prophet. According to Islam, he is final prophet or seal of the prophets: Sura 33:40 “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.”

    Islam teaches not only is Muhammad the seal of the prophets but he is the greatest of the prophets. He is equal to or greater than Moses. Islam believes that Muhammad is the special prophet the Bible mentions will be like Moses. This verse from the Bible follows:

     Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

   The Koran states that Muhammad is the Prophet like unto Moses:

   Sura 46.9 Say: I am not the first of the apostles, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. (10) Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the children of Israel has borne witness of one like him, so he believed, while you are big with pride; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

   Sura 3:85 And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

What it Means to be Prophet Like Unto Moses

   There are six outstanding characteristics that have to be met. The Bible teaches that Moses is different than all the other Old Testament prophets. To be the prophet like Moses of Deuteronomy 18, these six characteristics have to be met. These requirements follow:

1). The prophet has to be a Jew. The brethren of Deuteronomy 18 are the Jews.

   Deuteronomy 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel... 2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.

2). God spoke directly to Moses. All other prophets received their revelation by visions or dreams. Moses revelation was directly from the mouth of God.

   Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 7  My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. (Cool With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

3). Moses was in the direct presence of God. He saw the similitude or form of the LORD. Moses glowed from being in direct presence of God’s glory.

   Exodus 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him. (30) And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

4). Moses brought in a blood covenant relationship with God. The other prophets built upon this covenant, but no other Old Testament prophet brought in a different covenant.

   Exodus 24: 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. (9) Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: (10) And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

5). Moses did mighty miracles. God used Moses to split the Red Sea.

   Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. (22) And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

6). Moses prophesied of the future. Moses gave entire chapters of prophecy. His prophecy centered on the people and nation of Israel.

   Leviticus 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land. (44) And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God. (45) But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

The test of Muhammad as a prophet like unto Moses

Using the six criteria of Moses being a special prophet, lets test the Muslim’s claim that Muhammad is the special prophet like Moses which the Koran claims.

1). Moses was one of the brethren of the children of Israel. Muhammad fails as he was not a Jew

2). God spoke directly with Moses. Muhammad fails because the Koran shows he received his message from an angel.

   Sura 77.5 Then I swear by the angels who bring down the revelation

   Sura 2.97 Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers

3). The Koran never reported that Muhammad was literally the direct presence of God.

4). Muhammad never brought in a blood covenant with God, but his message went directly against the revealed word of God.

   Sura 17.111 And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper to save Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him).

   Sura 23.91 Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any (other) god

5). The Koran reports no miracles of Muhammad. The Koran even says that Muhammad was not like Moses.

   Sura 28.48 But (now) when the truth has come to them from Us, they say: Why is he not given the like of what was given to Musa? What! did they not disbelieve in what Musa was given before? They say: Two magicians backing up each other; and they say: Surely we are unbelievers in all. (49) Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful.

6). Muhammad made no prophecies in the Koran.

The Muslims call Sura 30 the Great Prophecy: This is the very best prophecy them will bring forward in an attempt to prove Muhammad is a prophet.

   Sura 30.2 The Romans are vanquished, (3) In a near land, and they, after being vanquished, shall overcome, (4) Within a few years. Allah's is the command before and after; and on that day the believers shall rejoice,

Why Sura 30 is not a valid prophecy:  The Romans, who were the Byzantines, were always at war. A near land is not identified. The location to judge the near land is not identified in the Koran. Is it Jerusalem, Mecca, or Medina etc.? No date is give for this prophecy so within a few years can be identified. The fulfillment is not recorded in the Koran. It is impossible to verify that Sura 30:2-4 is a valid prophecy.

Muhammad fails the test of prophet in general and specifically he is not a prophet like unto Moses. Therefore his message as written in the Koran is to be totally rejected. He cannot to be classified as a prophet because he made no prophecy which could be tested. The Muslim’s claim that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets has no authority as there is no proof in the Koran that Muhammad was a true prophet of God.

   The Lord Jesus Meets  the Criteria to be that Prophet like unto Moses.

    The Bible says that the Lord Jesus is the Prophet like unto Moses.

   Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (22) For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. (23) And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

1). Moses was a Jew, and the Lord Jesus was a Jew. The Lord’s genealogy was special. He was a direct descendant of David and the King’s of Israel, and thus, He qualify to be Israel’s King Messiah, the Savior of the world.

   Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

2). God spoke directly to Moses. God spoke directly through the Lord Jesus.

   John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

3). Moses was in the direct presence of God and glowed from God’s presence. Jesus was the direct presence of God, and He manifested the glory of God!

   Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, (2) And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

4). Moses brought in a blood covenant relationship with God. The Lord Jesus brought in a better blood covenant with God. The better covenant gives the assurance of eternal life to all that believe.

   Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

   Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

5). Moses did mighty miracles. Jesus did mighty miracles. The Lord Jesus raised a man from the dead after he was four days in the grave. The Bible reported only a few of the awesome miracles that the Lord Jesus did. These miracles were a sign of Him being the Son of God.

   John 11:39 Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. (43) And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. (44) And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

   John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

6). Moses prophesied of the future. Jesus prophesied of the future. Like Moses, the Lord Jesus focused His prophecy on the Jews and their dispersion and restoration. The restoration of Israel would occur just before His second coming. Just as the Lord prophesied, exactly happened to the Jews. Israel is once again a nation with Jerusalem as its capital.

   Luke 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? (23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land (Israel), and wrath upon this people (Jews). (24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

     The Lord Jesus not only met the requirements of being the Prophet like unto Moses, but he exceeded them in all points. Moses was the servant of God, but the Lord Jesus was the Son of God; therefore, He was greater than Moses.

    Hebrews 3:2 (Christ) Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. (3) For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. (5) And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; (6) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

     The Bible shows that the Lord Jesus is greater than Moses as He is the Son of God. God sent His Son into the world to die for our sin. Because of the death of the Lord Jesus on the cross, you can be forgiven of all sin and have assurance of eternal life with God. When you trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior, God makes an eternal blood covenant with you. Please repent of sin and trust the Lord Jesus as your Savior. Eternal life is only through faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

     1 John 5:9  If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. (10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son (12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

     These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

 
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"One thing is education: that we learn how to love God. "
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