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Author Topic: Catholics and Anglicans 99% the same  (Read 1171 times) Average Rating: 0
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Peter J
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« on: February 06, 2012, 11:55:59 AM »

Catholics, I'm interested to hear your take on this.
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 12:15:16 PM »

It's interesting. The Anglican liturgy, if you look at a list of the features of the running order, and line it up next to one for the Roman Catholic liturgy, is almost the same. Michael Davies remarked on that.
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2012, 12:21:47 PM »

It's interesting. The Anglican liturgy, if you look at a list of the features of the running order, and line it up next to one for the Roman Catholic liturgy, is almost the same. Michael Davies remarked on that.

Why wouldn't it be?  They're both Western liturgies.
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2012, 12:34:51 PM »

Thanks for those replies, biro and Schultz.

Lest anyone gets the wrong idea from the thread title, I'm not trying to promote the idea that Catholics and Anglicans are 99% the same, but only to learn what people think about it.

Personally, I think "Catholics and Anglicans are 99% the same" is taking liberties, but no more so than is commonly done by some Catholics, e.g. in the following post from the thread Is Eastern Catholicism the same Eastern Orthodoxy?

Quote from: ConstantineTG
100% the same? No. I would say 99% the same.


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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2012, 12:47:26 PM »

A few years ago, my Aunt's father passed away. The funeral, which I went to, was at the local Episcopal Church in town. I had never been there before, but during the service, I was pretty surprised at just how similar it was to the Mass. Even their Liturgy of the Eucharist was almost identical to ours. Based on my limited experience, I would say that yes, there are many similarities between our two faiths. I don't know if I would go so far as to say 99%, but certainly many similarities.
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2012, 12:48:53 PM »

Well, they do share many of the same saints and liturgical forms. Prior to the Schism, there was one Church, whether in England or continental Europe or elsewhere; then after the events of the 11th Century, up to the time of the Reformation and the official separation, the church in the British Isles remained under the aegis of the Roman Catholic Church (please correct me if that's wrong). I've often been curious to go to an Anglican church. There was (and I'm sure still is) a very large, beautiful Anglican church in downtown Flushing, NY. (I grew up on the north end of town.) They did a lot of good work for the community.

As an aside, it's just not Christmas unless I get a chance to watch the concert from St. Paul's in London.  angel
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 01:33:22 PM »

A few years ago, my Aunt's father passed away. The funeral, which I went to, was at the local Episcopal Church in town. I had never been there before, but during the service, I was pretty surprised at just how similar it was to the Mass. Even their Liturgy of the Eucharist was almost identical to ours. Based on my limited experience, I would say that yes, there are many similarities between our two faiths. I don't know if I would go so far as to say 99%, but certainly many similarities.
The Eucharistic prayers of the Episcopal Liturgy contain some ambiguities about the nature of the Eucharist. I wonder if this is to leave open room in the Anglican Communion for those who hold differing views of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 01:33:40 PM »

The couple times I went to an Episcopal or Catholic church I thought the liturgies seemed very similar, except - the Catholic church seemed way more Protestant and the service reminded me more of a Protestant church, and the Episcopal church/service seemed more "Orthodox." Kind of unexpected. The Episcopal church even faced east and they had clearly sought to keep that orientation for the altar, even if it meant having bizarre perpendicular additions to the building (shaped like an L with the altar in the bend, and two naves).
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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 03:48:03 PM »

A few years ago, my Aunt's father passed away. The funeral, which I went to, was at the local Episcopal Church in town. I had never been there before, but during the service, I was pretty surprised at just how similar it was to the Mass. Even their Liturgy of the Eucharist was almost identical to ours. Based on my limited experience, I would say that yes, there are many similarities between our two faiths. I don't know if I would go so far as to say 99%, but certainly many similarities.
The Eucharistic prayers of the Episcopal Liturgy contain some ambiguities about the nature of the Eucharist. I wonder if this is to leave open room in the Anglican Communion for those who hold differing views of the Eucharist.
Yes — historically, it was one of the hallmarks of the Anglican compromise/reforms.
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 12:16:35 AM »

It's interesting. The Anglican liturgy, if you look at a list of the features of the running order, and line it up next to one for the Roman Catholic liturgy, is almost the same. Michael Davies remarked on that.

Why wouldn't it be?  They're both Western liturgies.

I am interested in your take on my response, Schultz:

I think one of the things that clearly separates the Anglican from the Catholic, including Anglo-Catholics, is the issue of obedience to authority.

From mother's milk the Catholic, at least until the generation after mine, and even many who are raised in traditional homes today, and I don't mean Tridentine traditionalists but culturally traditional Catholics, the young Catholic is raised with the understanding that they must be obedient to legitimate authority, in all things but sin. 

Early on that is the Mother and the Father, then it is the parish priest, then the bishop and the pope, as the young one becomes more aware of the wider world in which they are Catholic.

I think this attitude toward authority is one of the most striking attributions of Catholicity of an individual.  At one time I had an article that talked about this attitude toward legitimate authority as a way to explain why many Catholics were not ready to go out and lynch clergy when the sex scandal broke...I didn't agree with the entire article but I did resonate to the attitude toward obedience.  I find a very similar attitude in many Orthodox, mostly cradle Orthodox or Catholic converts, but not so much from protestant converts to Orthodoxy.  In fact I get a great deal of push-back from them.

That is one characteristic, and also the extreme focus on the uniqueness of the individual, in God's eyes, of each person and their inestimable worth to God.

These were the two things that I was taught from the time I was old enough to be aware of being Catholic and it was reinforced by the sisters in school.

M.

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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 11:16:55 AM »

That claim is about as erroneous and inflammatory to many as saying that Eastern Catholics and Orthodox are about 99% the same.

To which 99% do you refer, as the claim may appear accurate on external, superficial terms while being inaccurate underneath the veneer? I doubt that the Holy Martyrs of the Church in England whose blood was shed by the forces of Henry VIII, Elizabeth I and the Cromwellians would concur with you. Nor would the Orthodox Martyrs or the Greek Catholic Martyrs of the post-unia era concur.

How can one view the role of the Pope as Universal Pastor as dogmatized by Vatican 1 and the issues regarding the Magesterium of the Roman Church as only constituting 1% of the differences.

I am as kindly disposed to the Roman Church as anyone on this board, but I have always said that minimizing those two issues is absurd.
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 12:54:03 PM »

It would go to 99% in the one direction, in that the only issue that would prevent someone subscribing to the rest of Catholic Church doctrine from being an Anglican is the issue of hierarchical sovereignty (which is to say, the insistence on own-church infallibility and that Anglican orders are invalid). The big issue the other way is, of course, all the things that the Church of Rome incorrectly dogmatizes. As far as liturgy is concerned, the issue of church order ranks a lot higher than the content of rites, though there are particular problem spots. Rome would not, in general, accept any of the various Anglican variants about presence/substantiation; Anglicans would object to the embroidering of the institution narrative, and a lot of them would be unhappy with some of the sacrificial language used. And of course there are all those women.
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 01:00:47 PM »

It would go to 99% in the one direction, in that the only issue that would prevent someone subscribing to the rest of Catholic Church doctrine from being an Anglican is the issue of hierarchical sovereignty (which is to say, the insistence on own-church infallibility and that Anglican orders are invalid). The big issue the other way is, of course, all the things that the Church of Rome incorrectly correctly dogmatizes. As far as liturgy is concerned, the issue of church order ranks a lot higher than the content of rites, though there are particular problem spots. Rome would not, in general, accept any of the various Anglican variants about presence/substantiation; Anglicans would object to the embroidering of the institution narrative, and a lot of them would be unhappy with some of the sacrificial language used. And of course there are all those women.

Fixed it for ya.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 02:08:00 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 02:12:38 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

The structure of the Anglican Church, with archbishops and bishops, is still relatively similar to that of the Roman Catholic Church. Yes, the RCC has cardinals and the Pope, which is different. But the structure at levels up to the archbishopric isn't all that divergent.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 02:15:54 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 03:02:48 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin

I would prefer to analogize to the DNA sequencing in Canis Domesticus and the wide variety of creatures therein - all of whom bark. Wink and the fact that only a little bitty bit of DNA differentiates Canis Domesticus from Canis Lupus! Of course, my son the micro-biologist, tells me that not all geneticists concur that Domesticus and Lupus should be categorized as separate species. Hmm, that dispute sounds, how shall I put it, vaguely familiar herein?
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 03:08:27 PM »

Fixed it for ya.

Your correction would be included in the part that is "incorrectly dogmatized".  Wink
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 03:09:47 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin

I would prefer to analogize to the DNA sequencing in Canis Domesticus and the wide variety of creatures therein - all of whom bark. Wink and the fact that only a little bitty bit of DNA differentiates Canis Domesticus from Canis Lupus! Of course, my son the micro-biologist, tells me that not all geneticists concur that Domesticus and Lupus should be categorized as separate species. Hmm, that dispute sounds, how shall I put it, vaguely familiar herein?

Now, I can't help but wonder......do *both* dogs and wolves eat their own vomit  Shocked Grin?
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 03:12:36 PM »

It's interesting. The Anglican liturgy, if you look at a list of the features of the running order, and line it up next to one for the Roman Catholic liturgy, is almost the same. Michael Davies remarked on that.

If you are talking about the Novus Ordo (instituted after Vatican II), then you are correct.
When I was still living at home with my folks, one day we visited a cute little church in a tiny city. There was no sign outside which would indicate the denomination. Since they mentioned Mass and Holy Confessions, we thought that it must be a Catholic Church. We attended the entire service, and even received communion, but when we were leaving, they gave us the bulletin, and it was a High Anglican Catholic Church, not in union with the Pope. The Liturgy was almost identical with the Novus Ordo, so we were clueless. The sermon was excellent and was based on the Epistle and the Gospel.
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 03:34:02 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin

I would prefer to analogize to the DNA sequencing in Canis Domesticus and the wide variety of creatures therein - all of whom bark. Wink and the fact that only a little bitty bit of DNA differentiates Canis Domesticus from Canis Lupus! Of course, my son the micro-biologist, tells me that not all geneticists concur that Domesticus and Lupus should be categorized as separate species. Hmm, that dispute sounds, how shall I put it, vaguely familiar herein?

Now, I can't help but wonder......do *both* dogs and wolves eat their own vomit  Shocked Grin?

True, yet even within one breed or another, there are always pups with 'bad table manners' which don't really reflect the breed as a whole. Much of canine behavior depends, does it not, upon how they are raised?
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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 03:47:17 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin

I would prefer to analogize to the DNA sequencing in Canis Domesticus and the wide variety of creatures therein - all of whom bark. Wink and the fact that only a little bitty bit of DNA differentiates Canis Domesticus from Canis Lupus! Of course, my son the micro-biologist, tells me that not all geneticists concur that Domesticus and Lupus should be categorized as separate species. Hmm, that dispute sounds, how shall I put it, vaguely familiar herein?

Now, I can't help but wonder......do *both* dogs and wolves eat their own vomit  Shocked Grin?

True, yet even within one breed or another, there are always pups with 'bad table manners' which don't really reflect the breed as a whole. Much of canine behavior depends, does it not, upon how they are raised?

I honestly don't know.  I'm a cat person, myself  Wink Wink.  Not that I have anything against dogs, mind you...

But, anyway, under certain circumstances won't a canine return to and eat its own vomit no matter how well it's been raised?
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 04:08:39 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin

I would prefer to analogize to the DNA sequencing in Canis Domesticus and the wide variety of creatures therein - all of whom bark. Wink and the fact that only a little bitty bit of DNA differentiates Canis Domesticus from Canis Lupus! Of course, my son the micro-biologist, tells me that not all geneticists concur that Domesticus and Lupus should be categorized as separate species. Hmm, that dispute sounds, how shall I put it, vaguely familiar herein?

Now, I can't help but wonder......do *both* dogs and wolves eat their own vomit  Shocked Grin?

True, yet even within one breed or another, there are always pups with 'bad table manners' which don't really reflect the breed as a whole. Much of canine behavior depends, does it not, upon how they are raised?

I honestly don't know.  I'm a cat person, myself  Wink Wink.  Not that I have anything against dogs, mind you...

But, anyway, under certain circumstances won't a canine return to and eat its own vomit no matter how well it's been raised?

One may only carry an imperfect analogy only so far before it is 'reductio ad absurdum' time. I concede!
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 04:13:44 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

Tis but a fraction of our DNA that separates us from slugs  Grin

I would prefer to analogize to the DNA sequencing in Canis Domesticus and the wide variety of creatures therein - all of whom bark. Wink and the fact that only a little bitty bit of DNA differentiates Canis Domesticus from Canis Lupus! Of course, my son the micro-biologist, tells me that not all geneticists concur that Domesticus and Lupus should be categorized as separate species. Hmm, that dispute sounds, how shall I put it, vaguely familiar herein?

Now, I can't help but wonder......do *both* dogs and wolves eat their own vomit  Shocked Grin?

True, yet even within one breed or another, there are always pups with 'bad table manners' which don't really reflect the breed as a whole. Much of canine behavior depends, does it not, upon how they are raised?

I honestly don't know.  I'm a cat person, myself  Wink Wink.  Not that I have anything against dogs, mind you...

But, anyway, under certain circumstances won't a canine return to and eat its own vomit no matter how well it's been raised?

One may only carry an imperfect analogy only so far before it is 'reductio ad absurdum' time. I concede!
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 05:18:54 PM »

so you're going to cram the pope into that 1%?

I think the issue of the papacy is too much to cram into that alleged 1%.
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 11:36:07 PM »

It's interesting. The Anglican liturgy, if you look at a list of the features of the running order, and line it up next to one for the Roman Catholic liturgy, is almost the same. Michael Davies remarked on that.

Why wouldn't it be?  They're both Western liturgies.

I am interested in your take on my response, Schultz:

I think one of the things that clearly separates the Anglican from the Catholic, including Anglo-Catholics, is the issue of obedience to authority.

From mother's milk the Catholic, at least until the generation after mine, and even many who are raised in traditional homes today, and I don't mean Tridentine traditionalists but culturally traditional Catholics, the young Catholic is raised with the understanding that they must be obedient to legitimate authority, in all things but sin. 

Early on that is the Mother and the Father, then it is the parish priest, then the bishop and the pope, as the young one becomes more aware of the wider world in which they are Catholic.

I think this attitude toward authority is one of the most striking attributions of Catholicity of an individual.  At one time I had an article that talked about this attitude toward legitimate authority as a way to explain why many Catholics were not ready to go out and lynch clergy when the sex scandal broke...I didn't agree with the entire article but I did resonate to the attitude toward obedience.  I find a very similar attitude in many Orthodox, mostly cradle Orthodox or Catholic converts, but not so much from protestant converts to Orthodoxy.  In fact I get a great deal of push-back from them.

That is one characteristic, and also the extreme focus on the uniqueness of the individual, in God's eyes, of each person and their inestimable worth to God.

These were the two things that I was taught from the time I was old enough to be aware of being Catholic and it was reinforced by the sisters in school.

M.




...
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 07:58:05 AM »

I think one of the things that clearly separates the Anglican from the Catholic, including Anglo-Catholics, is the issue of obedience to authority.

It would be far more accurate to say that it is fealty rather than obedience that characterizes the difference. Well, and there is an expectation of obedience for Catholics which Anglican churches do not have, but first world Catholics are not notably obedient to their church except on the matter of, well, fealty. They do use birth control, and they probably do get abortions, probably not at the rate that secularists do, but non-Latino Catholic birth rates in the US are not significantly different from the those of the rest of the population, and Europe is famously low in its fertility.
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2012, 06:46:43 PM »

I think one of the things that clearly separates the Anglican from the Catholic, including Anglo-Catholics, is the issue of obedience to authority.

It would be far more accurate to say that it is fealty rather than obedience that characterizes the difference. Well, and there is an expectation of obedience for Catholics which Anglican churches do not have, but first world Catholics are not notably obedient to their church except on the matter of, well, fealty. They do use birth control, and they probably do get abortions, probably not at the rate that secularists do, but non-Latino Catholic birth rates in the US are not significantly different from the those of the rest of the population, and Europe is famously low in its fertility.


Accurate for whom?  It is taught as obedience.  That is the principle.
 
I am always amused by young people, and old people, who think that the test of a principle, precept or law is whether or not people abide by it.    If that's the case then we need to dump the Decalogue and most of our civil laws as well.

M.
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