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Author Topic: American "Christian" Values  (Read 3619 times) Average Rating: 0
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Shiloah
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« on: September 27, 2004, 01:52:16 PM »

1) What are America's "Christian" values?  
2) Are there any that are acceptable to an orthodox believer, since they would have been established by heretics?
3) And  would an orthodox believer show support of the same, and if so, how?
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2004, 02:10:19 PM »

Geez! You sure ask a lot of questions!   Wink
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 02:29:35 PM »

Quote
1) What are America's "Christian" values?

Neoconservatism.

Quote
2) Are there any that are acceptable to an orthodox believer, since they would have been established by heretics?

Of course. For instance, lots of heretics believe in the Trinity. The truth of the Trinity is not compromised if a heretic believes it.

Quote
3) And  would an orthodox believer show support of the same, and if so, how?

"And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's."

Gregory
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2004, 07:57:14 AM »

Since nobody on this forum seems to be very knowledgeable or interested in this subject I would like to recommend a very educative link at
http://www.wallbuilders.com/index.htm

Gregory, I looked up the term 'neo-conservatism' at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)
and can't find that this is a "Christian" value definition.

Maybe you are just trying to express your opinion that there are no Christian values in America ?

Looking at the speed of moral decay, corruption and depravity portrayed in the daily news one can quickly come to this conclusion.  
So, should your silence be interpreted as that nobody here sees any value in our nation anymore?
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2004, 08:25:51 AM »

OK I have a question...

Who decides what values, Christian or not, America has?  The USA is a country, made of grass and dirt, holding billions of people who have extremely varied values.  Is it the goverment, the president, the rich, the influential that decide what values this country has? I think you mean the goverment, generally. Seems the whole "separation of church and state" thing has gained more meaning than it has ever had in the sense that just about anything that a religious group (ie. christians) would believe in gets the cold shoulder.
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2004, 08:48:28 AM »

Although this tread is NOT about the 'separation of church and state' issue, and to prevent from falling into plain polemics, here is a link that explains the background of this phrase http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/search/detail.php?ResourceID=9

In this article it says:
"Thomas Jefferson had no intention of allowing the government to limit, restrict, regulate, or interfere with public religious practices. He believed, along with the other Founders, that the First Amendment had been enacted only to prevent the federal establishment of a national denomination-   .....Jefferson had committed himself as President to pursuing the purpose of the First Amendment: preventing the “establishment of a particular form of Christianity” by the Episcopalians, Congregationalists, or any other denomination.

Since this was Jefferson’s view concerning religious expression, in his short and polite reply to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802, he assured them that they need not fear; that the free exercise of religion would never be interfered with by the federal government."
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2004, 08:51:56 AM »

Quote
Maybe you are just trying to express your opinion that there are no Christian values in America ?

Looking at the speed of moral decay, corruption and depravity portrayed in the daily news one can quickly come to this conclusion.  
So, should your silence be interpreted as that nobody here sees any value in our nation anymore?

Dear Shiloah --

Of course there are some Christian "values" in America. We should rejoice that we enjoy many freedoms in this country. We can attend church without fear and we can practice Orthodoxy in peace. As St Paul said: "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things"

So, let us rejoice in what is good and pray that we may not be lead into temptation. Pray for our country.

If you put first the kingdom of God and truly put on Christ, others around you will be saved. Let all other things flow from this.

Gregory
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2004, 09:07:42 AM »

Well, Gregory, that sounds so different from your first post, and I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. What was that first one all about then?
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2004, 10:35:34 AM »

MsGuided, I like your answer.  You are certainly right that it is the wealthy and influential who decide things, and that will definitely be the case if the status quo remains in effect.  The wealthy will keep getting tax breaks and we who can't afford it will be paying for everything, especially this war, that has caused a huge deficit.  But the President ain't about to rescend the tax breaks he gave to the wealthy.
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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2004, 10:45:14 AM »

My family got its tax break last year. And we are reaaaaaaaaalllllllll rich. NOT.  Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2004, 10:47:23 AM »

The President also didn't rescind all of the spending programs that are in place in the government, despite the fact that all of the other Republicans were agitating for him to do so. Let's keep this in perspective.  America still has a rather generous social benefits program.

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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2004, 11:11:11 AM »

Quote
The wealthy will keep getting tax breaks and we who can't afford it will be paying for everything, especially this war, that has caused a huge deficit.  But the President ain't about to rescend the tax breaks he gave to the wealthy.

Come on now, you don't honestly buy the Democratic class envy stuff, do you? It's always the same knocks against Republicans: "they don't care about medical issues" (meaning: let's scare parents and the elderly so they vote Democrat), "they don't care about minorities" (meaning: republicans want to do away with racist things like quotas for who gets into colleges), "they don't care about the poor" (meaning: plant the sin of class envy into people, and try to work them into a mob), "they don't care about the disadvantaged or those down-on-their-luck" (meaning: republicans want to distance themselves from the socialistic redistribution of wealth), "they want to tell you what you can do in your bedroom" (meaning: republicans actually try to defend the unborn, and try to defend traditional values insofar as the state is involved in relationships [e.g., whether homosexual marriage should be legalized]).

I'm a member of the "working poor". I will be so all my life. And I will be a Republican all my life. The funny thing is, when I think of the things I don't like about Bush, it is that he was too liberal! The judges he picked, some of the spending he ok'd (not to mention some of the people he chose to head-up some of his ideas, such as "No Child Left Behind"), it just drives me bonkers. And here people are, acting like he's a slick politican who only panders to the rich! Ha! And I'm a billionaire, and just work at Wal-Mart for kicks  Tongue
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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2004, 11:42:23 AM »

1) What are America's "Christian" values?
Charity and hope are probalythe two most predominant.The US gives more money inforegin aid to ther countries than all other nations combined. Americans too tend to be hopeful and optimistic.

Quote

2) Are there any that are acceptable to an orthodox believer, since they would have been established by heretics?
Christ tells us to judge a tree by its fruit...and so we must judge the US national fruits and prune when needed and pray itis never severed from the vine.

Quote

3) And  would an orthodox believer show support of the same, and if so, how?


As already stated, bygiving unto Ceasar what is his and GIving God what belongs to God. There is no authority that does not come from the Father.
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Shiloah
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« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2004, 11:50:20 AM »

Anastasios, Spartacus, Paradosis - Thank you for your posts!
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« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2004, 11:53:49 AM »

You're welcome, Shiloah! Glad we could agree Smiley

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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2004, 08:26:41 AM »

DO YOU SEE the FLAG and the COAT OF ARMS IN MY ID BOX?

Well the Flag is AUSTRALIAN and the Coat of Arms is SERBIAN.

I am as much australian as  I am serbian now..

So, as an australian I dislike "yanks" for beeing rude, loud, ignorant and so on...

And as a serb i dislike americans for bombing Serbia because serbs tried to protect themselves from Roman catholic and Muslim fanatics.... and at the same time DID NOT HAVE ANY OIL to buy American values.

THANK YOU AMERICANS for both...


I strongly believe that THERE IS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME FROM USA....



Sorry.

I said and saved my soul.


God bless you all.
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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2004, 08:31:49 AM »

Quote
I strongly believe that THERE IS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME FROM USA....

Then you are leaving this no-good site? Smiley
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« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2004, 08:34:55 AM »

UOPS..... well.. they may be one or two.... the others name is Beck.
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« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2004, 09:17:48 AM »


I strongly believe that THERE IS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME FROM USA....

Sorry.

I said and saved my soul.

God bless you all.

Since when does making vitrolic statements condemning ALL citizens from another country and statements totally devoid of Love constitute Salvation?

Is this an example of Australian Christian values?

As to Serbia, my friend, you're preaching to the choir here.  :-

Demetri
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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2004, 09:45:08 AM »

Well... I already went through hell once... thanks to 2000 lbs NATO bomb.

So.. I have been saved..... the pilot thought that my grandmas house on top of the hill surrounded by vineyard was a strategic military target... I suppose the house looked like... something on the top of the hill that needs to be destroyed before 23 yo lieutenant  goes back and plays PS games.

Makes me sad... for every one of those pickets in the fence were older then american history.

I apologise if my feelings towards US are not so charitable...  I would feel raped if I had to lie that I am in some sort of love with the US. So... salvation or not.... truth is one.


"Is this an example of Australian Christian values?"
No... just mine.... if you want me off the forum.. just say.
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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2004, 10:02:04 AM »


"Is this an example of Australian Christian values?"
No... just mine.... if you want me off the forum.. just say.
"Off the forum"?
Certainly, no.

I, personally know many, many Orthodox here. None of them are NOT angered about the treatment of Serbia (indeed all Yugoslavia) - treatment by the US gov't as well as by a large chunk of western Europe.

Demetri
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2004, 10:34:31 AM »

"Is this an example of Australian Christian values?"
No... just mine.... if you want me off the forum.. just say.

An Australian seminary professor of mine once said:

"I've never understood you Americans and all of this 'Christian nation' nonsense.  But then, when you're from a country founded by felons, it makes that particular pretense a little more difficult."

 Grin
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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2004, 10:38:36 AM »

Stay here at the forum, just please try to take it easy on us? Smiley Even a blind squirrel finds a nut from time to time!
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2004, 11:29:13 AM »

"1) What are America's "Christian" values?"

I think the overwhelming value that passes for Christian here in the USA is a sense of messianism which defines the substantive content of the persistent idea of American "particularism" .. specifically, the idea that the USA is the "City on the Hill" which has an almost messianic duty to lead the world to enlightenment, freedom, justice and, yes, salvation.  It's a rather dangerous ideology, but it's really a religiously (and specifically an "American [non-denominational] Christian") based one, even when applied in seemingly secular contexts and ways.  It's really one of the main reasons why the rest of the world is so scared/skeptical of the United States right now.

"2) Are there any that are acceptable to an orthodox believer, since they would have been established by heretics?"

I don't see them as being established by heretics.  To the extent that non-orthodox believe things that are Orthodox, that is fine because it comes ultimately from the truth of Orthodoxy, but we Orthodox of course are not taking non-Orthodox Christian ideas from the non-Orthodox, so I don't really see this as an issue.
 
"3) And  would an orthodox believer show support of the same, and if so, how?"

You support the government where you are.  That doesn't mean you support everything that passes for or is peddled as "American values".  Support need not be -- and ought not be -- blind or unquestioning.

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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2004, 11:32:12 AM »

Quote
And as a serb i dislike americans for bombing Serbia because serbs tried to protect themselves from Roman catholic and Muslim fanatics.... and at the same time DID NOT HAVE ANY OIL to buy American values.

THANK YOU AMERICANS for both...


Not all americans supported the illegal war on serbia. That was caused by a certain previous president who wanted to get his sexual scandals off the main headlines. I beleive most of us thought that was a bad war. I attend a serbian church sometimes & felt really sad for all the people there when that was going on. I still don't understand what it was all about. It seemed perfectly fine to me that the serbians should have the right to defend thier country from islamic drug pedaling radicals who were causing trouble in the Kosavar region.
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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2004, 11:37:55 AM »

And as a serb i dislike americans for bombing Serbia because serbs tried to protect themselves from Roman catholic and Muslim fanatics.... and at the same time DID NOT HAVE ANY OIL to buy American values.

THANK YOU AMERICANS for both...

I strongly believe that THERE IS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME FROM USA....

You might be surprised that many Americans, especially Orthodox, were strongly opposed to that grand DIVERSION (from MonicaGate).  Give us Yanks a break.  Not all of us are nodding donkeys.

You might want to remember that many Americans are donating to charities such as IOCC, much of which benefits Serbs.  It's best to remember that good and evil aren't the domain of nations and peoples, but as Solznenitsyn wrote in The Gulag Archipelago, the line between the two cuts through every human heart, engaging in a fierce struggle for our souls.  We're all culpable to some degree for the misdeeds of our countries, whether through apathy or outright support, and before we scourge another country we need to look at our own national histories first.  However, there were no good guys in the Balkan conflict.  All sides were run by dictator thugs, supported for the most part by their people.  Perhaps if the 2000 overthrow of Milosevic had occured a few years ealier, there wouldn't have been NATO bombing in '98?  Who knows.

Let's refrain from making sweeping judgements against others and instead seek repentance for our own sins.  I, for one, am terribly sorry for the actions of my country against yours.
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« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2004, 12:44:36 PM »

Support need not be -- and ought not be -- blind or unquestioning.

B

A tangent, but I would say this even applies to your bishop as well - just that you must heed his decision even if it may seem 'wrong' until further action is (hopefully - if the decision really is unwise) taken by a synod, Archbishop/Metropolitan, etc.

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« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2004, 12:46:34 PM »

Please Aussie, take it easy on us...  Not all of us had the advantage of being born somewhere other than the US.  
Seriously though, there are some great things about this country, but unfortunately they rarely manifest in the government.  
While the bombings on Serbia took place, we did what we could...  Donated $, refused to stand for the Pledge of Alligence in school & the national anthem at ball games, and when we had to prepare speeches for class we chose Serbia/Kosovo as our topics, and drove 7 hours to Washington DC to protest in front of the Pentegon.  My brother & I got a lot of flack in school for wearing Serbian flag & "Target" patches on our backpacks & jackets.  
During the pogroms this past March, our parish had a benifit concert, at which Prince Alexander & Princess Katherine were present.  
During Partriarch Pavel's trip to America we drove 9 hours to Ohio to be present at the service in Akron.  
And as far as Yanks being rude... yeah, I guess we can be... but then again, we can also be very nice.  When I was in Australia, I experienced the same thing... some of the Aussies were VERY rude to us.
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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2004, 01:04:31 PM »

1) What are America's "Christian" values?  
2) Are there any that are acceptable to an orthodox believer, since they would have been established by heretics?
3) And  would an orthodox believer show support of the same, and if so, how?


This is just my opinion.  In the order they were asked:

1.) The "founding fathers" were Deists or Protestants.  America is a pluralistic society.  I don't think it can be said to have "Christian values" per se.  I don't think of America as a Christian country.

2.) I think that an Orthodox American could support certain ideas championed by the government, such as charity, etc., just as they could support these same ideas from a Hindu govt. or whatever else.  This does not necessarily mean embracing the heretical aspects of the "dominant" faith (i.e one rooted in Deism or maybe Puritanical Protestantism, or whatever else).

3.) If the govt. called on people to minister to the poor or donate to the relief of people in an impoverished area, they could contribute time, money, or effort.  Again, I don't think that this would be embracing any of the tenets of the "mainstream" American "faith", whatever that could be said to be now, Oprah-esque New Age far left stuff, Evangelical Protestant far right stuff, or whatever else is "in" right now.
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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2004, 01:16:00 PM »


So, as an australian I dislike "yanks" for beeing rude, loud, ignorant and so on...

I strongly believe that THERE IS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME FROM USA....


Do you know any "yanks" personally that your dislike is based on dealing with face to face real human beings?

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« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2004, 04:08:50 PM »

Seems the whole "separation of church and state" thing has gained more meaning than it has ever had in the sense that just about anything that a religious group (ie. christians) would believe in gets the cold shoulder.  

Oh, I don't know about that. "Love your neighbor as yourself?"

These days, too many conservative Christians tend to seize upon their positions that differentiate themselves from the rest of Christendom as the only Christian positions. That's one reason people find it so easy to despise conservative-- particularly fundagelical-- Christianity: the taking for granted of the really basic stuff tends to give the impression (if not create the reality) of hypocritical disregard of it.

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« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2004, 06:29:07 PM »

DO YOU SEE the FLAG and the COAT OF ARMS IN MY ID BOX?

Well the Flag is AUSTRALIAN and the Coat of Arms is SERBIAN.

I am as much australian as  I am serbian now..

So, as an australian I dislike "yanks" for beeing rude, loud, ignorant and so on...

And as a serb i dislike americans for bombing Serbia because serbs tried to protect themselves from [size=10]Roman catholic [/size] and Muslim fanatics.... and at the same time DID NOT HAVE ANY OIL to buy American values.

THANK YOU AMERICANS for both...


I strongly believe that THERE IS NOTHING GOOD THAT CAME FROM USA....
Sorry.
I said and saved my soul.

God bless you all.
What did Roman Catholics do here?
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« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2004, 06:45:14 PM »

I'm sorry, I am not going to allow this to degenerate into a nationality-bashing thread.

Anastasios
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