Author Topic: Splinter OO groups  (Read 7165 times)

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Offline Schultz

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Splinter OO groups
« on: September 27, 2004, 11:53:42 AM »
Are there any or many "splinter" OO groups, like ROAC, ROCiE, TOC and whatnot amongst the OO communion?
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Offline Anastasios

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2004, 12:13:25 PM »
Not really, although there is a breakaway Indian Church (not either of the 2 factions that everyone considers to be "real" Orthodox, but a third independent diocese in India somewhere that has existed for 200 years...Phil???)

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Offline JohnCassian

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 12:35:48 PM »

Well, I have encountered this fellow:

http://www.archbishopashe.com/

He claims to be a validly consecrated Archbishop in the OO Tradition via the Malankara Church.  He's also frequently on TBN pacing the stage in a red cassock and mopping his brow as he preaches Pentecostal-style.  TBN's site actually links to his...he's a little ways down the list from MC Hammer ministries.  I think he's in his 20's.

Its always been my assumption that he's vagante...but now that I think about it, Paul Crouch did manage to get to see H.H. Pope Shenouda somehow so...is it possible that there's some group within the O.O. trying to reach out to Pentecostals/Evangelicals this way?

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Offline Schultz

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2004, 01:22:25 PM »
Yes, okay, I have seen that guy on TBN occasionally.  Some of the things he said weren't your everyday normal Evangelical things and I found it odd.  It sort of makes sense now.

"Sort of" being the operative term there.  I'm still fuzzy on a) who this guy is and b) what he's doing on TBN.
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Offline paul2004

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2004, 05:24:22 PM »
There is a group in India called the Independent Thozhiyoor church. It is a small church of few hundred families. They keep the essential aspects of OO faith, but not part of any Synod.

-Paul

Offline Fr. David

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2004, 06:04:44 PM »
Yes, okay, I have seen that guy on TBN occasionally.  Some of the things he said weren't your everyday normal Evangelical things and I found it odd.  It sort of makes sense now.

"Sort of" being the operative term there.  I'm still fuzzy on a) who this guy is and b) what he's doing on TBN.

a) He came to Tulsa while I was at ORU and spoke at the Azuza Campmeeting (a gathering of mostly African-American Pentecostal preachers) one year.  He was a pentecostal evangelist for many years. He received the "baptism in the Holy Ghost" while he was very young, and hasn't lost familiarity with this spiritual experience (he teaches seminars on the prophetic) and continues to "move in the Spirit" (in the charismatic sense of receiving spontaneous divine guidance) even as an Orthodox bishop.

b) While my only times listening to him were done just before I became a catechumen, his style of preaching definitely makes charismatics feel comfortable (not that he does it in precisely the same manner in his OO Church) while at the same time giving what I remember as very sound theology -- which, compared to most Azuza stuff, isn't saying much, but I digress -- I think he spoke on the Incarnation and theosis, all very Orthodox, but in the style of "fiery preachin.'"  Don't really know, when all is said and done, what to make of him.
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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2004, 08:55:18 PM »
Ashe is not Orthodox!  I don't know what the Pope was doing on TBN, and it doesn't concern me.  But this Ashe is not Orthodox by any means; he's vagante.

The group Anastasios was referring to is the one Paul mentions.  They're not in communion with any of us, but to my knowledge they have not deviated from the Orthodox faith.  It seems they "flirt" with Protestants now and then, however, and that is a little problematic.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2004, 08:59:53 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Thomas Daniel (Reji)

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2004, 02:17:46 AM »
Slomo

I agree with Paul & Phil, they are not part of any synod.
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Offline paul2004

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2004, 10:23:04 AM »
While we discuss the splinter groups, we need to be careful that we do not judge any one. If they are truly OO in faith, they are justified by their faith. I think there should be a process to start diologue with the splinter groups, especially the OO splinter groups origintating from Bishop Rene Vilatte succession.  This also depends on how much the OO churches can guide them, which requires effort.  I know that H.G. Mar Makarios visited and had dialogue with few of these groups. I think we need the space open for those who wish to remain in the OO faith.

One of these groups is in communion with the Thozhiyoor Church and the Thozhiyoor church is in unity with the Mar Thoma Church of India.

I wish the Christians linking to Apostle Thomas remain united.

-Paul

Offline paul2004

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2004, 10:25:18 AM »
Dear Reji,  I have a question to you. In which Synod the Knanaya Bishop in India attends on a regular basis? My assumption is that the Knanaya Bishop is almost independent and so is the Simhasana and Evangelical Association Bishops. Please educate me if I am wrong.  There is a canon that a bishop should be part of the Synod and should regularly attend Synod meetings.

-Paul

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2004, 08:48:32 PM »
Somehow, I don't think so.  Ask the SSPX.  :)
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Offline Thomas Daniel (Reji)

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2004, 09:04:47 AM »
Dear Reji,  I have a question to you. In which Synod the Knanaya Bishop in India attends on a regular basis? My assumption is that the Knanaya Bishop is almost independent and so is the Simhasana and Evangelical Association Bishops. Please educate me if I am wrong.  There is a canon that a bishop should be part of the Synod and should regularly attend Synod meetings.

-Paul

Dear Paul
Slomo

I don’t know if it is genuine doubt to understand the fact or finding another excuse to start the Malankara fight. ;) Anyhow as you asked precisely to me, I will answer.

Knanaya bishop attend the synod of the Universal Syriac Orthodox Church, were all Archbishops from all over the word comes, including Catholicose of India along with Simhasana and Evangelical Association Bishops (In the Universal church Malankara as whole is treated as Archdiocese of Syriac Orthodox Church)

In Malankara Synod, Knanaya bishop attends as an invitee only without any voting power.

If any dispute between Knanaya Bishop and the Knanaya Diocese, the case will be brought to the Catholicose and he will decide the matter.

I will not enter into further debate on this subject
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Offline paul2004

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2004, 03:16:16 PM »
Dear Thomas,  The aim is totally not to discuss Malankara-Damascus issues.  I want to learn why this type of model is adopted. I think this belongs to the category of dissociated bishops.  Up to about 1972 the Knanaya bishop was one of the members of the Malankara Synod, as the bishop of Knanaya Diocese.  I am trying to learn why the Knanaya bishop is now having a very different (almost independent) existence with no voting powers.

I think we should not encourage numerous divisions and splinter groups like Thozhiyoor church, and try to do averything possible to have a single Synod in India.  Kindly educate me the benefits of having different groups for the same faith.


-Paul

Offline paul2004

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2004, 03:21:38 PM »
Dear Thomas, I have one more question related to this, within the Syrian Orth. church (excluding Malankara), how their dioceses are divided? Do they have any bishops like Simhasana, Knanaya etc.

-Paul

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2004, 12:37:30 PM »
Ashe is not Orthodox!  I don't know what the Pope was doing on TBN, and it doesn't concern me.  But this Ashe is not Orthodox by any means; he's vagante.

The group Anastasios was referring to is the one Paul mentions.  They're not in communion with any of us, but to my knowledge they have not deviated from the Orthodox faith.  It seems they "flirt" with Protestants now and then, however, and that is a little problematic.  

I agree 100%.  Veron Ashe is not Oriental Orthodox.  the Pope was on TBN for the same reason that Orthodox clergy appear of EWTN, to represent out pov and witness the truth of Orthodoxy.  He has written several books on Pentecostal/Charismatics heresies, such as the teaching of "salvation in a moment" and their warped understanding of who the Holy Spirit is and what He does.

Quote
There is a group in India called the Independent Thozhiyoor church. It is a small church of few hundred families. They keep the essential aspects of OO faith, but not part of any Synod.

It seems to me that they fail to keep the essential aspects of the OO Faith if they are willing to give whatever legitimacy they can to this Ashe fellow without requiring him to abandon Pentecostal/Charismatic theology, i.e. :He received the "baptism in the Holy Ghost" while he was very young, and hasn't lost familiarity with this spiritual experience (he teaches seminars on the prophetic) and continues to "move in the Spirit" (in the charismatic sense of receiving spontaneous divine guidance) even as an Orthodox bishop as Pedro has described.  There cannot be a "Charismatic Orthodox Church" remade in the image of Benny Hinn, Morris Cerullo, & co.

Quote
I wish the Christians linking to Apostle Thomas remain united.

Me too Paul, so long as they are united in the Orthodox Faith, and not solely on the basis of the St. Thomas lineage, regardless of whether they teach Protestantism, Charismatic blasphemy, or whatever else.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2004, 04:20:10 PM by Antonious Nikolas »
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline jdudan54

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2004, 01:12:39 AM »
 ;)   Vernon Ashe is centered out here in California, Fresno i believe. you could probably find his church on the web.....last i saw i think he had a seminary or something similar going as part of his ministry. I think he had some vague connection to the Mar Thoma church here in the states, and used that piece to elevate his stature as "Orthodox." From there, he broke off and went on his own, and god knows where he's headed......perhaps a 'steady' on TBN......................
          Does anyone know of or is familiar with, the Mar Gregorios society here in America? Their affiliated with the Malankara church; i do know Mar Gregorios was a prolific writer for the O.O. ...............joe
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Offline Thomas Daniel (Reji)

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2004, 01:42:05 AM »
Paulos Mor Gregorios Metropolitan, was a great Christian philosopher, very active in the ecumenical and inter-religious movements. He challenged humankind to think in terms of one global state in which all religions flow together.
For more informations please visit following links
http://www.paulosmargregorios.info
http://www.geocities.com/gregorianstudycircle

He was the Bishop of Indian Orthodox Church and its Delhi diocese
« Last Edit: October 11, 2004, 01:48:20 AM by Thomas Daniel (Reji) »
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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2004, 03:52:45 PM »
Paulos Mor Gregorios Metropolitan, was a great Christian philosopher, very active in the ecumenical and inter-religious movements. He challenged humankind to think in terms of one global state in which all religions flow together.

I am not familiar with the writings of Mar Gregorios, but I am not sure that the idea of all religions flowing together is Orthodox, or even Christian.  Please elaborate.
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline jdudan54

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2004, 12:11:18 AM »
 I don't know about the concept of 'all religions flowing together'; it may be he speaks of his Indian continent where every concievable religion on earth seems to dwell. i think Thomas may answer that better than i. I have used three of his books towards papers with favorable response. His book, 'The Cosmic Man' is , i think, a great exposure of Gregory of Nyssa in light of the western influence of Augustine, and shows the Christian world the debt it owes to the thought of Gregory. It is not 'light' reading.....but then again, reading Mar Gregorios presumes one has moved from 'milk' to meat.  No offense you 'vegans' out there! I think a sound intro into Mar Gregorios is his work, 'The Church and Authority.'          ..............................peace, joe
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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2004, 05:44:51 PM »
My godfather is a priestmonk in the Ethiopian Church, and he told me that the Ethiopians are separated into three groups. The group to which he belongs is called by some the "Haile Selassie Church," (not to be confused w/ Rastfarianism) which is headed by Abuna Yesehaq, who has been the main Ethiopian Orthodox hierarch in North America for decades now. They recently broke communion with the Patriarchate for pretty much the same reasons the White Russians broke communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. What makes this division even more interesting is that Abuna Yeshaq and Patriarch Paulus of Ethiopia are first cousins.
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Offline SaintShenouti

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2004, 11:32:15 AM »
All these splinters in the Body are the source of grief for many in the church.  What ever happened to unity under the leadership of one's beloved patriarch and the God-fearing bishops of one's church?  Personally, I haven't heard of Abba Shenouda being on TBN, and I would hardly conceive TBN as being a dignified channel to represent the pope.  I concur with Brother Nikolas, our Abba has written much against their heretical "instant salvation" standpoint.

By the way, I was reading in an English version of "El-Keraza" Coptic news magazine (an older edition), and I saw awesome photos of Abba Shenouda with Patriarch Alexei of Moscow.  I just thought it was a neat picture- the Egyptian and the Russian patriarchs.  I'm a big fan of the Russian church, and admire their glorious liturgy, particularly the part of the Great Ektenia in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom.

Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2004, 07:36:13 PM »
Shenouti,

I have personally seen His Holiness Pope Shenouda on tbn, but both times I saw him it was merely as interviews and another time Mr. Crouch from tbn gave His Holiness a tour of their studios and gave His Holiness some cheezy gifts, including a statue of flying doves and a pen!  :o WOW! ::)

In Christ,
Aaron

Offline SaintShenouti

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2004, 08:29:54 PM »
Heheh, how thoughtful.

Offline TonyS

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2004, 09:32:17 PM »
;)   Vernon Ashe is centered out here in California, Fresno i believe. you could probably find his church on the web....

http://www.archbishopashe.com/qanda.html#q1

Vernon Ashe is AKA Mar Enoch.

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Offline Arystarcus

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2004, 11:03:40 PM »
Quote
Heheh, how thoughtful.

My sentiments exactly!  :D

Offline sdcheung

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2004, 09:12:29 PM »

 and continues to "move in the Spirit" (in the charismatic sense of receiving spontaneous divine guidance) even as an Orthodox bishop.


Interesting, are they similar to Bowel Movements?

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2004, 10:53:14 AM »
Interesting, are they similar to Bowel Movements?

LOL!  They are the precise spiritual equivalent!
Worship is theology, so a church which brings Evangelical and Charismatic "praise & worship" into its corporate life is no longer Orthodox.  It is, by definition, heterodox.  Those "Orthodox" leaders who make theological arguments for the incorporation of heteropraxis into the life of the Church are heretics.

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Offline joe77

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2005, 12:00:14 PM »

If any dispute between Knanaya Bishop and the Knanaya Diocese, the case will be brought to the Catholicose and he will decide the matter.

I will not enter into further debate on this subject

Quote

Dear Reji this is not for a dispute but can  i ask some questions about  what you siad here
Did you mean a dispute between  members of Knanaya diocese and their bishop will be brought to the Catholicose and he will decide the matter or did you mean issues between Knanaya diocese and rest of SOC  diocese in India

If you menat the first part i dont think thats right  as far as i am aware even though Knanaites accept and respect HB he dont interfire in interanal matters of Knanaya diocese it will normaly be brought to Patirach HH  Mor ignatius Zaka 1 he will decide for example after the departure of Mor Clemis the late Cheif Metropolitan of east  there where some troubles in Knanaya Diocese this was acthualy brought to HH not HB.And in the intial years of second split in malankara in 1972  when  Mor Clemis tryed to stay with Augun 1  for very short  period at that time Knanaya association requested to HH for a clear clrification of Mor Clemis position  but as Mor Clemis soon realised it he never showed any more passion to Augan 1 didnt actualy needed any action from HH
                                    But i must admit Knannaites  do give a  great position for HB as spiritual leader of Malankra in which Knanaites is part.
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Offline joe77

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Re:Splinter OO groups
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2005, 12:31:49 PM »
 ÃƒÆ’‚ I want to learn why this type of model is adopted. I think this belongs to the category of dissociated bishops.  Up to about 1972 the Knanaya bishop was one of the members of the Malankara Synod, as the bishop of Knanaya Diocese.  I am trying to learn why the Knanaya bishop is now having a very different (almost independent) existence with no voting powers.
-Paul
Quote

                 Dear Paul  Knanaya Bishop's stay out is not because of dissociation .you are right Knanaya Bishop was  a memeber of Malankara Synod till 1972 the reason for step out is for the intrest of Knanaya Diocese; Knanaites didnt want to be the part of Malankara court case but they been draged to it but by the grace of God our church didnt struggle.Before the union Knanaya Bishop even held the postion of malankara metropolitan at once but after union in Malankara synod knanaya diocese asked for some explanation about their postion there was a commattie appointed to study about this issue but before any decision took place the church spilted again .Knanaites decided to stay separate to avoid anymore trouble as Kottayam Catholicose allready claimed  for Knanaya Diocese we didnt want give same chance for SOC if anyhting gose wrong in the future.
                       And if you ever studied about Knanaites they allways kept a seperate identity.Till early 20th century malankara church wasnt divided according to geographical diocese and Knanites accepted Malankara bishop as their Bishop too.But when they smelled the new Diocese concept they didnt want seperate they stayed togther as  an association this eventualy formed Knanaya Diocese.Knaaite where allways strong strong followers of Patriarch so they wanted a seperate Diocese and bishop to avoid the strom which hitted and splited malankara church.When HH Mor Elias 3rd the great Patriach of Antioch visited Kerala to bring peace Knanaites requested him to approve Knanaites intrest to stay under direct authority of HH(so that they can avoid any split or trouble which may arise in malankara church inthe future).So but hill bull Knanaites gained a seperate postion which garanted their dioces will never be headed by a non Knanaites and whatever happens in Malnakra they been garanted to be under HH.And we are glad our fore fathers took that wise decision.
                It has nothing to do with disagreement I am sure Knanaites will only be happy to be part of malankara church, member of synod ,and association as long as they can keep their autonmy and garantte that their church will not splited .
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