America For Jesus event in D.C. and Return America

[Shiloah]

I was handed a flyer the other day about this event in Washington DC Oct.22,2004  http://apjc.unored.com/ .

What is your all's opinion about such an effort?

Also about the 40 Day fast and prayer event that starts today nationwide, see details at http://www.40daysusa.org/home.html .

It wasn't mentioned this morning in my parish and nobody (orthodox) talks about it.

Isn't this a cause to be taken serious?  Is there anything comparable in the Orthodox community?

Just wondering, Shiloah

[Mor Ephrem]

Why do Protestants fast?  Don't they consider that a "work"?

[Shiloah]

Please, everybody, I didn't post this to get some cynical polemics against protestant doctrine and/values.

I looked at their motives and thought it was a timely idea to come together as a nation and to repent before God for our corporate sins.

Do we as orthodox believers really stand above repentance? Are we as orthodox believers AND citizens not accountable to God for the moral state of this nation?
Are we being self-righteous if we think to be better than they?

Does anybody know whether there has ever been an orthodox equivalent for national compunction?

If you just want to bash protestants, don't do it with this thread, please.

Concerned, Shiloah

[TomS]

Why do Protestants fast?  Don't they consider that a "work"?  

At least they don't make up wacky "traditions".

[Anastasios]

The whole concept of Orthodoxy is following a corporate and public cycle of penance and rejoicing at the appointed times.  We don't need a "special" time to do this.  However I rejoice that our Protestant bretheren are interested in fasting and hope it brings them closer to Orthodoxy.

Anastasios

[Mor Ephrem]

For what it's worth, I didn't post what I did in order to bash Protestants.  I've listened to enough fundamentalist Protestant radio to know that they seem to reject anything and everything that even remotely resembles "works" that "earn" salvation.  My question was an honest one: why would they fast?  How do they explain the practice?  Is there something different about fasting that makes it "not a work", or otherwise acceptable?

Again, I wasn't bashing Protestants.  But I come back to this thread, and see the following...  

Do we as orthodox believers really stand above repentance? Are we as orthodox believers AND citizens not accountable to God for the moral state of this nation?
Are we being self-righteous if we think to be better than they?

...which I could easily (mis)construe as bashing Orthodoxy.  Come on: anyone who knows anything about the Orthodox faith knows full well we don't regard ourselves as above repentance (some people may have that attitude, but you find that everywhere).  I'm being self-righteous because I dare ask how Protestants reconcile fasting with their anti-works beliefs?

At least they don't make up wacky "traditions".

I don't think I'm misconstruing this.    All the wacky "traditions" I think you take issue with started with the Greeks, so I don't know what your problem is.

[TomS]

I don't think I'm misconstruing this.    All the wacky "traditions" I think you take issue with started with the Greeks, so I don't know what your problem is.    

I just spent 3 weeks in that crazy country. I have many problems!  

[Shiloah]

Well friends, it is really very sad to see that this is the best you can come up with to this topic.

We live in very pivotal times and I don't think the idea of a national solemn assembly type of thing is so far out or inappropriate. If you have visited the links I indicated you should have found out that this is different than the regular Cycle of the Church Year repentance.

And I do not consider anybody's honest attempt to repent publicly for the sins of our nation 'works'.  But I guess the words of St.James in James 2:18 don't mean anything to you, do they?

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

You all are so screwed up.....full of spite and rebellion and unbelief.

"But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance ..."

[Mor Ephrem]

I asked what I thought was a simple and honest question, and you seem to have misunderstood it as picking on the Protestants.  I'm sorry I wasn't clear.

[Mor Ephrem]

You all are so screwed up.....full of spite and rebellion and unbelief.

This is why I'm in the Church!

[Shiloah]

Mor, if you go back to my initial post you'll see that I asked three simple questions in it, and you haven't even answered any of them yet. Nobody has.
I'm sorry about that. And your last comment is just another caustic erruption from a bitter heart. Don't you know that bitterness defiles (Hebrews 12:15)?

The Church is our Mother. She is the Life-giving fountain. She is represented in the Theotokos. Jesus gave us to Her care with his last words. And you are taking pleasure of mocking this treasure more honorable than the Cherubim ...

[MsGuided]

And I do not consider anybody's honest attempt to repent publicly for the sins of our nation 'works'.  But I guess the words of St.James in James 2:18 don't mean anything to you, do they?

Why does this repentance have to be public? Honest question.

You all are so screwed up.....full of spite and rebellion and unbelief.

Wow.

[Anastasios]

Shiloah,

"If you have visited the links I indicated you should have found out that this is different than the regular Cycle of the Church Year repentance."

I know it is--that was my objection.  The Church through its cycle of personal repentence and corporate repentence affects the entire created realm.  Besides, why would we subject ourselves to possible heretical ideas being preached by Protestant ministers and why would we pray publicly with Protestants, which is against the teaching of our Church?

"I'm sorry about that. And your last comment is just another caustic erruption from a bitter heart. Don't you know that bitterness defiles (Hebrews 12:15)?"

I know Phil (Mor) personally and if you think he has a bitter heart, then you are very wrong.  I found your comments offensive, not his.  How are you going to say we are "all screwed up?"

Anastasios

[Shiloah]

Why does this repentance have to be public? Honest question.

If you check out the Old Testament, every time the Israelites contracted the wrath of God because of their disobedience and spiritual adultery, and a prophet was raised to warn them, they made a public statement of repentance and turned back to God. which postponed the judgment. Nineveh is a good example.

Jesus died publicly, not in secret. The holy martyrs were martyred publicly and made their confession of faith publicly. Confession in the early days of the Church was publicly. And if America would publicly confess and repent and return to God, it would be apowerful impact on the world. How and why should that be done in secret, anyhow?

We sin publicly. Think of all the issues at hand (abortion, homosexuality, fornication, witchcraft, idolatry, adultery etc.). Seems like nobody is ashamed of that. So why should we be ashamed of our repentance? Certainly the devil wouldn't like it but we sure would get God's attention, like they did in the days of Nehemiah.

[Shiloah]

Anastasios,

because I know that orthodox don't want to pray with protestants i had asked in the beginning of this discussion if anybody knew of a similar event ever having happened in the orthodox community. Never got an answer to that.

If Mor does not have a bitter heart than why does he come across with those biting and spiteful remarks instead of giving a proper answer?

I'm sorry that you got offended, but the people got offended by John the Baptist's and by Jesus' words, too - and I do in no wise put myself on the same level with those. But you all don't seem to realize how you are always picking and biting and spitting and fighting over the littlest mention of something that people of non-orthodox faiths do or say.

To me that is offensive and it happens every single day on this forum and its divers boards. And you all seem to like it and to enjoy it. That's sick!

[Asteriktos]

Some of the posts in this thread reminds me of something I believe Fr. Seraphim Rose mentioned one time. He spoke of someone who said the Jesus Prayer thousands upon thousands of times on their balcony every morning. One day, someone on a lower balcony was making a bunch of noise and disturbing the person "praying". So the person who was "praying" threw an object at them and got all in a huff. It was as if he was thinking that people should just stop being so irritating and just let him be the spiritual person he knew he was!


Mor,

Before I became Orthodox, I was part of a Wesleyan Holiness movement. That is probably about as "works" oriented as Protestants get (but don't use that word, of course!) Fasting, prayer, etc. was seen as something that indirectly helped regarding salvation, insomuch as it helped one have a "better relationship with Christ". It was seen as an effort of love. Protestants make a big distinction between justification and sanctification. Now, if you say that someone can be saved (justified) by works, that's where they have a problem. They do not think that one can be justified (ie. saved) by works. On the other hand, some Protestant groups do allow that works are a part of our sanctification. They don't see fasting, etc. then as a necessary part of our salvation, but rather as 1) something that we do just because we love God or are led to it through obedience, or 2) something which effects the quality of our salvation, so to speak (e.g., how "strong in the Lord" are we? are we "on fire"? etc.), but not the actual fact of whether we are "saved" or not.

[Mor Ephrem]

And your last comment is just another caustic erruption from a bitter heart. Don't you know that bitterness defiles (Hebrews 12:15)?

My comments are caustic erruptions from a bitter heart?  I didn't realise you were my confessor who knew better than any other human being the state of my soul.  I'm sorry, but I really don't think you are in any position to conclude all this because you don't know me.  I don't think I've done this to you...have I?  I'd appreciate it if we could continue the thread without the unsolicited spiritual diagnoses: thank you.      

The Church is our Mother. She is the Life-giving fountain. She is represented in the Theotokos. Jesus gave us to Her care with his last words. And you are taking pleasure of mocking this treasure more honorable than the Cherubim ...

 

I was not mocking the Church.  "It is not the healthy who need a physician, but the sick", and you correctly identified me and everyone else here as sick (actually, in your words, "screwed up").  The Church is a hospital, and I'm a patient.        

Mor, if you go back to my initial post you'll see that I asked three simple questions in it, and you haven't even answered any of them yet. Nobody has.
I'm sorry about that.

I didn't read all the material on the websites you linked to because I don't have as much time as I'd like to for that.  Since you asked, and my initial question has gotten us off topic, I will now attempt a short response to your original post.  

Prayer is powerful, prayer with fasting is more powerful, and common prayer with fasting is even more powerful.  All of this is good.  However, my experience with Protestantism (I have family and friends who are various types of Evangelical and Pentecostal, including clerics, have been to all sorts of services, spoken at length with them, etc.) makes me suspicious of these mass meeting type things.  First of all, I think they border on show at times.  How much of it is genuine desire to repent and to get others to repent and how much is "Look at us, we're so good"?  If the latter is involved, then our spiritual efforts are in vain.  

Second, and this is purely my opinion, although there is biblical precedent for this sort of thing, the biblical precedents are for "national" fasts.  They were done by Israel, the People of God.  The Orthodox Church is Israel.  Is this sort of thing something we should do?  Perhaps.  But forgive me, I think we should think a little bit before we go headlong into these things with people who are outside of that Israel.  If our hierarchs suggest this sort of thing, let's do it.  If they don't, and there is a desire for it, let's suggest it.  But let's not be too quick to take matters into our own hands, thinking this must be a good thing because these are noble goals, and join in this sort of thing with people like "Bishop John Gimenez" who, sincere Christians though they may be, may not teach the fulness of Truth.  I know quite a few people who left Orthodoxy for Protestantism because Protestants "preached from the Bible" and that "must be a good thing" since "it's the same Bible".  Last I checked, we preached from the Bible too: the difference is that our Church rightly divides the word of truth, and they do not.  They were deceived, and this danger is always present, especially when we are trying to follow the Lord.  

I'm not surprised this wasn't talked about in your parish or that no Orthodox are talking about this particular event.  It's off our radar screen.

Should we take this idea seriously?  Sure, why not?  A few years ago, we started an annual day of fasting and prayer in my parish where all the parishioners come to church early in the morning and pray, fast, and meditate, followed by Confession, and Communion the next day.  Maybe if other parishes start something like that, it'll become more popular and eventually become a diocesan/jurisdictional event.  But if no one takes the initiative for it, it won't have a chance.  Talk to your pastors about it and defer to their judgement.

[Anastasios]

"But you all don't seem to realize how you are always picking and biting and spitting and fighting over the littlest mention of something that people of non-orthodox faiths do or say.

To me that is offensive and it happens every single day on this forum and its divers boards. And you all seem to like it and to enjoy it. That's sick!"

Who is "you"?  Me? Us? Be more specific. You, Shiloah, seem like a highly judgmental person.  I don't jump all over people who mention non-Orthodox things, that's for sure.  I read your website you linked and don't think it's something Orthodox should be involved in.  You asked if there are any Orthodox who do an Orthodox equivalent of that type of meeting/demonstration.  I don't think there are, but you could start something of that sort if you are interested.  There is also the Orthodox Peace Fellowship www.incommunion.org which fosters peace and justice. Perhaps that is up your alley.

I find it interesting that you choose to label the forum's perceived tendancy to bash Protestants as "sick."  I also find your "soul reading" to be unwelcome.  You are not anyone's Gerondissa.  And your use of biblical quotes to back up your attacks is curious.

Anastasios

[MsGuided]

How and why should that be done in secret, anyhow? ....

Certainly the devil wouldn't like it but we sure would get God's attention, like they did in the days of Nehemiah.

"When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly." Mt 6:5-6

So this doesn't count?

...and I'd hate to think that we don't have God's attention if we truly repent, even silently...

[JohnCassian]

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, what with the election year cycle and all...

I think we need to return to, and take seriously, the teaching that our first citizenship is the Kingdom of Heaven, not any of the other various and sundry kingdoms of this Earth.  Everyone says it.  I think fewer and fewer Americans really believe it.

But I'm sick of:

- People slandering our Hierarchs because they don't agree with their particular political biases.

- People pretending that America is, or ever was, a 'Christian nation'.

- People associating the Israel of God (which is the Church, according to the New Testament) with the U.S., or any other national entity.

The U.S. wasn't here 250 years ago.  It may not be in another 250 years.  The same goes for any nation.  The Byzantine Empire was Christian from top to bottom, but it rose and fell.  No nation represents a cause worth dying for, and even more than that, no nation represents a cause worth killing for.

If we as a nation are going to repent, we should repent of engaging in open warfare (i.e. mass slaughter and bloodshed) over socio-economic policy, land, and mineral rights.

And if we as individuals should repent of anything in this regard, its being Americans (or Greeks, or Britons, or Russians, or Thai) first, and Christians second.

The people committing the sins you and this website mention aren't repenting of them.  At all.  Rather than repenting for their sins, perhaps we should busy ourselves repenting of our own.

[Anastasios]

"No nation represents a cause worth dying for, and even more than that, no nation represents a cause worth killing for."

I disagree.  We have the freedom to practice our religion because people died for our country.  I am not a jingoist, though, and I agree the Church comes first.

Anastasios

[Shiloah]

Thank you, Mor, Anastasios and John Cassian for the last  posts. Now, finally, there are some reasonable answers to a few simple questions I had asked. Why not so from the start?

I had asked for the orthodox take on that and I meant it. There was nothing offensive in my initial questions but I realize now how naive I was.

By the way, if orthodox don't think much of the status and the privileges of this nation I wonder whether they go to vote? Since there are no orthodox candidates to vote for.

At our parish we do not have any repentance times other than those at general confession which are to be a soul searching moment for the individual. But we have never had any corporate repentance for actual situations. So that would be possible?

Thanks for the input, after all.

Anastasios, in regard to your words

I find it interesting that you choose to label the forum's perceived tendancy to bash Protestants as "sick."  I also find your "soul reading" to be unwelcome.  You are not anyone's Gerondissa.  And your use of biblical quotes to back up your attacks is curious.

have you ever thought how this constant protestant bashing on this forum comes across? To me and maybe a few others who don't speak up much here, it is just as unwelcome. As for me calling it 'sick' - one of Webster's definitions of sick is "spiritually or morally unsound or corrupt". There is a steady hateful attitude displayed towards anything that just looks the least bit protestant on this forum. Really not appealing to anybody who might be on this forum looking for "the fullness of the faith". I have realized that anybody who approaches this forum as not-yet orthodox and does not talk the right talk usually gets walked all over, instead of being shown "love towards the enemy".

Jesus showed me in all He did that God still loves the sinner but hates sin.

Shiloah, bash resistant

[Stephen Barrow]

Shiloah,

As someone who does a lot of reading of the posts put forth here and not much in the way of posting may I suggest you look reflect on the hubris you project?  Look for the log in your own eye.

Come down down off the cross, we already have a Saviour and besides somebody else needs the wood.

[ania]

Hi Shiloah,
As far as group repentance, there are many traditions, at least Russian ones, I don't know about other branches of Orthodoxy.  At one time, Russians were big into pilgramages, to the Holy Land as well as to monastaries all over Russia.  People of all walks of life did this, from the poorest peasents to the richest aristocrats.  There was also a great tradition of religious processions that sometimes were hundreds of miles long.  
Fasting was to be taken quite seriously on the designated times, so I doubt if any extra were added on.  
In Russia the traditions are reviving, thank God, but in the US we are becoming more & more lax.

[Anastasios]

"I have realized that anybody who approaches this forum as not-yet orthodox and does not talk the right talk usually gets walked all over, instead of being shown "love towards the enemy"."

You know, that is strange considering about 75% of the donors to this site are NOT Orthodox!

Anastasios

[Schultz]

I have realized that anybody who approaches this forum as not-yet orthodox and does not talk the right talk usually gets walked all over, instead of being shown "love towards the enemy".

If you're viewing non-Orthodox as "the enemy", then perhaps you should answer that phone.  I think it's the kettle calling you back.

[Shiloah]

From what I have read on the different boards the non-orthodox, especially anybody suspected to be protestant, are being treated like the enemy. That's what I was implying. It is NOT my own perception. And what do you mean by the kettle calling me back? I have never heard that expression. But I figure it's another piece of spite-mail?

[Schultz]

And what do you mean by the kettle calling me back? I have never heard that expression. But I figure it's another piece of spite-mail

It comes from the phrase "That's like the pot calling the kettle black", whereby one points out hypocrisy.  If you were calling Protestants "the enemy" and chastising us for "picking on" them, then you were guilty of that which you accused us.

I'd advise bartering for a sense of humor, as I believe Phil's initial post which got your knickers all in a twist, was tinged with some humor.  Granted, he didn't answer your question, but that's no reason to jump on his back.

[Anastasios]

Shiloah,

Every time we respond to your exaggerated criticisms it is "spite mail."  I hope you realize you are doing the same thing.

Anastasios

[Shiloah]

No, Anastasios, I am not doing the same thing. I am not being spiteful. I am though, definitely expressing my utter frustration with the way some people answer. Posting here is like entering the arena to expect the lions tear you apart. By the way, spite is defined as "petty ill will or hatred with the disposition to irritate, annoy, or thwart". Maybe people are just being cynical, but it certainly doesn't come across to me as humorous.

In my expressions of frustration and hurt I am not exaggerating but simply reflecting the pain that has been afflicted. And I am not "on a cross" and don't have to come down from there. That, too, by the way, was a very disrespectful answer. But I realize, we're living in disrespectful times and orthodox folks are no better than the rest of the world. You can take that as an exaggeration too, if you like.

Ania, thank you for your response

Hi Shiloah,
As far as group repentance, there are many traditions, at least Russian ones, I don't know about other branches of Orthodoxy.  At one time, Russians were big into pilgramages, to the Holy Land as well as to monastaries all over Russia.  People of all walks of life did this, from the poorest peasents to the richest aristocrats.  There was also a great tradition of religious processions that sometimes were hundreds of miles long.  
Fasting was to be taken quite seriously on the designated times, so I doubt if any extra were added on.  
In Russia the traditions are reviving, thank God, but in the US we are becoming more & more lax.  

I totally agree with what you're saying.

[Elisha]

From what I have read on the different boards the non-orthodox, especially anybody suspected to be protestant, are being treated like the enemy. That's what I was implying. It is NOT my own perception. And what do you mean by the kettle calling me back? I have never heard that expression. But I figure it's another piece of spite-mail?

Shiloah, stop trying to read into what people post as the most pessimistic attitude possible - it isn't what you seem to be thinking.

The phrase Shultz was saying is "The pot calling the kettle black." not 'back'.  Since you've never heard of the phrase, I would assume that you have not grown up in America.  What the phrase means, is that the person is coming off as a hypocrite - someone accusing another of something that they themselves are exhibiting.  It is a reference to the color of old kitchen cooking supplies.

Again, the reason most of us don't have much of a response for what you originally asked/posted is that it is just not something Orthodox would do.  Orthodox are a religious minority in the USA.  There actually are a few Orthodox (well, nominally at least) congresspeople, but it would be news if a presidential candidate to appear.

It's not that anything Protestant is inherently "bad", but that to someone who is Orthodox, we wouldn't even think of thinking about it and would view it as suspect at the very least.

Also, as others have said, no matter how much you may deny it, you come off just as hostile as any of us.  No one here is out to get you.  Try to develop a thicker skin.  And finally, have a nice day.

[Shiloah]

Again, the reason most of us don't have much of a response for what you originally asked/posted is that it is just not something Orthodox would do.  

I was aware that it is something Orthodox don't do, but does that mean it is wrong to do it?
And thanks for trying to be kind. It helped a little

[Elisha]

I was aware that it is something Orthodox don't do, but does that mean it is wrong to do it?
And thanks for trying to be kind. It helped a little

Great!  I'm glad it did!

Also, don't jump down our throats for not answering right away.  Many of us are posting from work and can't monitor the board 24/7 (when we should be waiting until we get home anyway).

[Tikhon29605]

As a former Protestant who converted to Orthodoxy nine years ago, let me say this forum is NOT a mean spirited, Protestant bashing forum at all.  I find it very welcoming of questions from all Christian traditions. However, I also find it has little patience for smug finger pointers.  Just some food for thought.

[Mor Ephrem]

Before I became Orthodox, I was part of a Wesleyan Holiness movement. That is probably about as "works" oriented as Protestants get (but don't use that word, of course!) Fasting, prayer, etc. was seen as something that indirectly helped regarding salvation, insomuch as it helped one have a "better relationship with Christ". It was seen as an effort of love. Protestants make a big distinction between justification and sanctification. Now, if you say that someone can be saved (justified) by works, that's where they have a problem. They do not think that one can be justified (ie. saved) by works. On the other hand, some Protestant groups do allow that works are a part of our sanctification. They don't see fasting, etc. then as a necessary part of our salvation, but rather as 1) something that we do just because we love God or are led to it through obedience, or 2) something which effects the quality of our salvation, so to speak (e.g., how "strong in the Lord" are we? are we "on fire"? etc.), but not the actual fact of whether we are "saved" or not.

Dear Justin,

Thanks for the productive response to my admittedly off topic question.  All the Protestantisms I've had direct experience with (except Anglicanism...I don't know where they stand on this) have seemed to lump things like fasting with other works (almsgiving, repetitious prayer, etc.), and "works" seemed to be looked upon with suspicion without any qualification.  Viewing fasting and prayer as efforts of love which help sanctify seems more in line with Orthodox teaching than what I'm used to.  Is this a minority view in Protestantism?

By the way, if orthodox don't think much of the status and the privileges of this nation I wonder whether they go to vote? Since there are no orthodox candidates to vote for.

What status and what privileges are you talking about?  

I think plenty of Orthodox go out and vote, whether or not there are any Orthodox candidates.  Chances are they don't care if s/he's Orthodox as long as s/he'll fight for their respective ethnic groups.  

At our parish we do not have any repentance times other than those at general confession which are to be a soul searching moment for the individual. But we have never had any corporate repentance for actual situations. So that would be possible?

I suppose it would be possible, but any time I've seen general confession in an EO church, it seems to have been a communal thing.  If that is all you get in your local parish, I'd probably try fighting for regular private confession before some sort of repentance/revival meeting.    

have you ever thought how this constant protestant bashing on this forum comes across? To me and maybe a few others who don't speak up much here, it is just as unwelcome. As for me calling it 'sick' - one of Webster's definitions of sick is "spiritually or morally unsound or corrupt". There is a steady hateful attitude displayed towards anything that just looks the least bit protestant on this forum. Really not appealing to anybody who might be on this forum looking for "the fullness of the faith". I have realized that anybody who approaches this forum as not-yet orthodox and does not talk the right talk usually gets walked all over, instead of being shown "love towards the enemy".

Some time ago we (as a board) were accused by a third party of being anti-Catholic, and when we asked our members publically if they would agree with that charge, the response was in the negative, with some possible room for improvement.  If we asked the board if we were anti-Protestant, I suspect we'd get a similar answer.  

Perhaps part of the problem in the alleged Protestant bashing you see is that there are people here who don't like Protestantism because they've seen the harm it can do, even in its seemingly harmless ways, and will speak out against it when necessary.  When I was in undergrad, I was part of a "non-denominational" Bible study.  What a joke: the majority of the students were Catholic or Orthodox (it was an Indian thing), but the leaders were Protestant, and taught Protestant teaching.  The Catholics didn't know enough about their own faith to combat this, much less the Orthodox, and when I tried, I was basically told that I was wrong and that they taught "biblical truth".  I've seen a young Catholic man with a lot of potential abandon his church and plan on going away to Bible college to learn the same stuff.  I've seen Orthodox men and women believe this stuff as the truth, and then view Orthodoxy through those lenses and come to believe that the Orthodox are backwards, with their long, repetitious services that are not spontaneous.  I've seen peers who think "worshipping in spirit and in truth" is the same as singing "Our God is an Awesome God" to the strumming of a guitar.  I've listened as Pentecostals told my family that my father contracted lung cancer out of no where because we "didn't pray enough", and that if we joined their church, God would heal everything.  

I could go on (and I'm sure others have their own stories), but I don't want people to think that I hate Protestants, or that Protestants have hurt me, or anything like that.  I have no hatred for them--I have many in my own family, both ministers (Anglican and Evangelical) and laypeople.  But while they may have some of the truth, we have it in its fulness; they see the shadows (and oftentimes distorted shadows) of the dogmatic and sacramental realities entrusted to us by our Lord.  I don't hate Protestants, but I dislike Protestantism because it is an illusion, and illusions can be used by the evil one to draw people away from the truth.  There is enough blame to be placed on our shoulders for not doing our part to prevent this sort of thing, but that doesn't prevent us from speaking out against it.  

I don't think there is any Protestant bashing going on on this site.  But if Protestant bashing means speaking out against their false teachings, then maybe there is some of that going on, and that is as well.  I think what happened here is that you started a topic, expected all the answers to be of a certain type, and when you saw something that didn't directly fit in (although I thought it was a valid tangent since it had to do with one aspect of the topic), you automatically thought that out of my spiteful, bitter, hateful, rebellious, faithless, and blasphemous heart were coming words bashing Protestants, you, and your thread.  I've got many, many spiritual problems, but I actively try not to let that affect my posting.

[Ebor]

I have realized that anybody who approaches this forum as not-yet orthodox and does not talk the right talk usually gets walked all over, instead of being shown "love towards the enemy".

Well, wanting to be fair here.  I'm not EO, OO or RC. (I *hope* that's been clear.   )  and frankly I have no intention of 'doxing for the foreseeable future. But I haven't been walked over nor (that I've noticed) been considered an 'enemy'.  There have been a few go-rounds (Mr. Wheeler last week for example, Bro. Max sometime back etc.) and I have protested referring to "Prots" as it's a derogatory term. In general I hope that I have presented my views clearly and with some firmness.  But I haven't noticed any boot tracks on my posts yet.  

Ebor

[katherine 2001]

If you think we bash Protestants on this board, maybe you should try going to www.christianforums.com and go to the General Theology board and see how Orthodox and RC's get treated by some of the Protestants (particularly the Evangelicals).  Trust me, after going over there, this board is a breath of fresh air.    If there is Protestant bashing (which I don't believe there is), they are not innocent of it themselves.

[Fr. David]

But I haven't been walked over nor (that I've noticed) been considered an 'enemy'.

Nor have you given us any reason to do so, seeing as how you don't have a martyr complex.

[Asteriktos]

Mor Ephrem,

I think more groups believe what I outlined than would normally consciously admit to it. As humans we tend to get stuck in intellectual ruts (Orthodox included of course). For Protestants, one rut is "we are saved by faith alone". So, while many (though probably not anywhere near a majority) of protestants might say something akin to what I said above in, for instance, a bible studying session on fasting, they would nonetheless be quite uneasy with the explicit way that I stated things. Again, they would automatically reiterate: "we are saved by faith alone, and no man is justified by works". I read a work before I became Othodox that did a comparison of the eastern concept of deification, and John Wesley's views of salvation. In the conclusion, the author Steve McCormick asks,

Could it be that the various labels attached to Wesley, the "Anglican in earnest," have not stuck because he is operating from an eastern paradigm, albeit he seeks to accommodate to western categories? Is the form of Wesley's composite answer to the Christian life western while the substance is eastern?

While I don't agree with all that he says (or even his methodology at times), I think the author makes some interesting points to consider. Or, at least I did as an Orthodox inquirer coming from a Wesleyan background. The essay is titled Theosis in Chrysostom and Wesley: An Eastern paradigm on Faith and Love. If you don't like reading online (or printing stuff out), or don't have a lot of time, though, you should know that it comes in at a little under 20,000 words, and that doesn't include the lengthy footnotes.

[Ebor]

Nor have you given us any reason to do so, seeing as how you don't have a martyr complex.

 

"martyr complex"?  Sorry, Pedro.  I'm not sure what you mean.

I would submit though, that since I am not EO and sometimes have differing views, that in other places I *could* be thought some kind of 'enemy'.  But that hasn't happened here.

Ebor

[Shiloah]

Ebor, he was referring to me ... never mind. that shoe didn't fit me either

[Anastasios]

This thread is contributing to a breakdown in the generally friendly tone of our board. Hence we are going to close it so it does not degenerate further.  Let's all make peace with each other and forgive and forget. I am sorry for anything I said that hurt anyone else's feelings.

Anastasios

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