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Author Topic: "Under God" in Pledge is Finally Protected  (Read 3154 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: September 24, 2004, 01:11:45 AM »

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040923/D859HDG80.html

House Blocks Court on Pledge Case Rulings
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Sep 23, 2:32 PM (ET)

By JIM ABRAMS

WASHINGTON (AP) - The House passed legislation Thursday that would prevent the Supreme Court from ruling on whether the words "under God" should be stricken from the Pledge of Allegiance.

In a politically and emotionally charged debate, Democrats said majority Republicans in the chamber were debasing the Constitution in order to force a vote that could hurt Democrats in the election.

Supporters insisted that Congress has always had authority to limit federal court jurisdiction, and the legislation is needed to protect an affirmation of religion that is part of the national heritage.

The bill, which was passed 247-173, would prohibit federal courts, including the Supreme Court, from hearing cases involving the pledge and its recitation and would prevent federal courts from striking the words "under God" from the pledge.

The legislation has little chance of advancing in the Senate this year, but it laid down another marker for politicians seeking to differentiate themselves from their election opponents on the volatile social issues of the day. Other "wedge" issues that have or could come up before the election include gay marriage and flag-burning.

The Supreme Court in June dismissed, on a technicality, a 2002 federal court decision that the religious reference made the pledge unconstitutional.

Rep. Todd Akin, R-Mo., the author of the amendment on legislation before the House Thursday, said the high court is likely to rule differently if it considers the substance of the case and "if we allow activist judges to start creating law and say that it is wrong to somehow allow schoolchildren to say 'under God' in the pledge."

In such a scenario, Akin said, Congress will have "emasculated the very heart of what America has always been about."

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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2004, 01:21:04 AM »

What great news!!!!!!!!!! We finally have some leaders in this country that are going to stand up for what's right to protect the 99% of the population against the liberal activist judges & the sexual/moral/spiritual deficient deviants that think it's their duty to sue the government on behalf of themselves because they have nothing better to do with thier lives because they were so offending by the words "under God" in the pledge. LOL, wow that's one long sentence......anywho, I'm shocked there was so much opposition to this passing. Of course you have your typical suspects on the left that are repulsed by anything that is higher than themselves, but hey I wouldn't expect anything less from them hehe.   Grin
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2004, 06:54:57 AM »

What great news!!!!!!!!!! We finally have some leaders in this country that are going to stand up for what's right to protect the 99% of the population against the liberal activist judges...anywho, I'm shocked there was so much opposition to this passing. Of course you have your typical suspects on the left....

Where, exactly, do you live?  While I personally prefer the phrase in the pledge, 1) it wasn't in the original version, and 2) taking that out would not be the death knell for us as a country; as a schoolteacher, I can tell you that almost all of my kids don't say the pledge anyway when we do it in the morning.  They don't take it seriously anyway now.

I can tell you that, in TEXAS, a state with a very conservative image, there are many who will voice an understanding with those who'd want to take "under God" out.  Can you imagine how many in Calif. -- where I believe you're from! -- and NY would be all right with ousting the words?  It's not just "a few who would sue," man...far less than 99% would mind if the words were gone.

Sorry to rain on your parade like that....
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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2004, 08:00:21 AM »

I agree with Pedro. It was not part of the original pledge and does not belong in it.
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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2004, 08:20:03 AM »

I am wholly against the Pledge of Allegiance for the following reasons. I don't want the government asking me to essentially swear that I will be patriotic and be loyal to the state. As long as I obey the law, I have the right not to be patriotic and if I want, to oppose the government in legal ways. I also have the right, if I wish, to promote the secession of one part of my country, if I want it to be a separate state, and the government can't stop me. Having kids, who may not even understand the gravity of what they're saying, swear in class that they will be loyal and patriotic is not democracy, it's fascism. Sorry for vehemently criticizing one of your national symbols, but I think it's just a bad symbol. We don't have this kind of indoctrination in Canada, nor do I know of any modern democracy that does.

Also, Christians may think it's great for "under God" to be there, but is this necessarily the true God? If it is "whoever I believe is God", or the Freemasons' "Great Architect of the Universe", this may be talking about a false god, or taking the name of the Lord in vain. Remember, the people who put this in were probably not Orthodox, even if they were Christian.

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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2004, 09:14:11 AM »

Good points, erracht.
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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2004, 09:25:31 AM »

Quote
Having kids, who may not even understand the gravity of what they're saying, swear in class that they will be loyal and patriotic is not democracy, it's fascism.

When I was in junior high, I became interested in World War II and especially the topic of how it was possible that almost an entire nation could blindly follow a madman like Hitler.  I was watching some footage of the Hitler Youth and was taken aback at how close some of their pledges to follow Der Fuehrer were to our own Pledge of Allegiance.

Then I found out that when the Pledge was first adopted, one did not put one's hand over one's heart, but held one's arm out, palm outwards, towards the flag.  Of course, this action was changed after fascism took its hold in Germany, but the thought of my mother and father and aunts and uncles standing there, arms outstretched towards the flag pledging his or her undying devotion to a flag was just too reminiscent of those Hitler Youth videos.

I stopped saying the Pledge then, but I still stood up with everyone else and respectfully allowed them to do so.  I never made any stink about it as it was a personal choice.
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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2004, 09:28:03 AM »

Having kids, who may not even understand the gravity of what they're saying, swear in class that they will be loyal and patriotic is not democracy, it's fascism.

The same point could be made (and IS made by Protestants) concerning bapitizing infants. The same could be said about forcing children to attend church and go to Sunday school. In both instances you are forcing a child to accept your beliefs. Maybe we should stop teahing our children how to make the sign of the cross before they are able to understand exactly why they are doing it?

That is what you DO as a parent - you INSTILL your values and beliefs on the child.

Concerning Canada - I am truly sorry for your bad luck at not being born an American citizen!  Grin
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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2004, 09:51:43 AM »

Quote
That is what you DO as a parent - you INSTILL your values and beliefs on the child.

That's the whole point, Tom.  Since when is the government the "parent"?
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« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2004, 10:06:04 AM »

That's the whole point, Tom.  Since when is the government the "parent"?

Governments must act as parents in order to teach common societal (is that even a word?) beliefs and adherence to law.

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« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2004, 10:24:38 AM »

Quote
Governments must act as parents in order to teach common societal (is that even a word?) beliefs and adherence to law.

I must vehemently disagree with you on this point and we'll have to leave it at that.  It's a parent's role to teach cultural and legal mores to their children, not the State's.  

Pledging undying devotion to the piece of cloth has nothing to do with being a good citizen.  Racist scumbag survivalists in Montana say the pledge everyday while they stockpile weapons for the upcoming race war.  Pedophiles say the pledge before they surf the web for child pornography.  Segregationists said the pledge before they shut the doors of schools upon black children.  

Pledging allegiance to a flag is not going to make someone a good citizen, nor even a good automaton, because that flag means different things to different people.  

yo
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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2004, 10:27:33 AM »

I understand your point -- but I think you are taking it to the extreme.

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« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2004, 10:32:03 AM »

Fair enough.  I still have anti-authoritarian tendencies when it comes to secular things and I know this.  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2004, 10:42:05 AM »

Governments must act as parents in order to teach common societal (is that even a word?) beliefs and adherence to law.

I'm not so sure if I'd agree there. I think 'government' should just butt-out of parenting roles altogether.

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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2004, 11:13:56 AM »

I think it is important for a nation to preserve a national identity by promoting a secular, national cult (in the true sense of the word).

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« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2004, 11:27:07 AM »

Quote
I think it is important for a nation to preserve a national identity by promoting a secular, national cult (in the true sense of the word).

It is important, but I don't think promoting it via a Pledge of Allegiance is the way to do it.  However, given the special situation we have in the United States (a lack of a homogeneous cultural identity), I really don't know of another way at this point.  But then again, I haven't really thought about it, either. Smiley

I just find it a bit fascistic when the only way we can promote an American identity is through a daily oath of loyalty to the government.
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« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2004, 11:30:41 AM »

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I think it is important for a nation to preserve a national identity by promoting a secular, national cult (in the true sense of the word).

I agree. This is obviously somewhat beneficial for the nation as a whole. If it was not, then why would most if not all countries have something similiar to the pledge along with a national symbol such as the flag??? Some of the people here seem to be expressing mild anarchist view points. If you also think about it on a different level, don't we do the same thing at the religious level in the church also? We have the creed (pledging to our faith) & symbols such as icons, & crosses. Also, parents do teach the faith at home, but our religous leaders in the church are also responsible in a greater sense. I see much parallels when it come to the health of the nation & is also important that we are all somewhat cohesive. The "Under God" part is also important because this is a recognizition that no government has ultimate authority & that our rights are derived from a higher source. This conflicts with the left I think because they are all for more government control, thus I think thier hissy fit with trying to chane the pledge. Also, do you think that the 85% that want the pledge to stay the same should be bullied around by a small minority???

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« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2004, 11:34:45 AM »

I'm glad this new law is there, but I don't see the big deal either way.

I see the act of striking "under God" from the Pledge as part of the liberal attack on society and am glad the legislation is there to counteract it.  On the other hand, in a practical sense, I remember reciting it during most years of elementary school and there might be one JW kid who would get made fun of for not saying it/abstaining/leaving the room/whatever.  I didn't know until recently that the Pledge just isn't said by kids in school anymore.

The point is, it doesn't really affect anyone one way or another in a practical sense - but it's nice to at least still have the symbolism.
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« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2004, 11:35:29 AM »

I would just like to say that it doesn't bother me if the Pledge is said everyday in every school, but if a child (or a parent for that matter) does not want to say it, so be it.  Much like you can't force people to believe, you can't force people to declare an oath of loyalty, as such an act is, by its very nature, null and void.
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« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2004, 11:46:11 AM »

I would just like to say that it doesn't bother me if the Pledge is said everyday in every school, but if a child (or a parent for that matter) does not want to say it, so be it.  Much like you can't force people to believe, you can't force people to declare an oath of loyalty, as such an act is, by its very nature, null and void.

Of course.
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« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2004, 11:50:19 AM »

I was never forced to say the Pledge in school, although it was done over the loudspeakers every morning.
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« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2004, 12:00:04 PM »

I didn't used to say the Pledge since I am a monarchist but now I do because I believe in national identity.  However, I was never forced to do it when I didn't want to.

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« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2004, 12:02:32 PM »

We used to beat up the kids at my school who refused to say it. Meant you were a communist!
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« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2004, 02:20:09 PM »

It's doubtful that this measure, if passed by the Senate, would be constitutional.  There are constitutional limits to the power of Congress to regulate the jurisdiction of the federal courts, and I doubt that this kind of legislation would survive judicial review.
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« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2004, 11:20:20 PM »




Quote
Governments must act as parents in order to teach common societal (is that even a word?) beliefs and adherence to law.

I'm not so sure if I'd agree there. I think 'government' should just butt-out of parenting roles altogether.

I find it funny that there are so many people who hate america so much and are so opposed to little things like the pledge of allegence, but rarley say anything about the horrors of communism and socialism.( Talk about a parent/nanny state!!)



Quote
When I was in junior high, I became interested in World War II and especially the topic of how it was possible that almost an entire nation could blindly follow a madman like Hitler.  I was watching some footage of the Hitler Youth and was taken aback at how close some of their pledges to follow Der Fuehrer were to our own Pledge of Allegiance.

Then I found out that when the Pledge was first adopted, one did not put one's hand over one's heart, but held one's arm out, palm outwards, towards the flag.  Of course, this action was changed after fascism took its hold in Germany, but the thought of my mother and father and aunts and uncles standing there, arms outstretched towards the flag pledging his or her undying devotion to a flag was just too reminiscent of those Hitler Youth videos.

With all due respect, this sounds like a pretty extreem view. I don't think that coming to such a conclusion is very rational. This kind of logic/examples could be implied with anything, even the church!!!!

If you suffered under a real fascist, or communist country, I think you would probably change your mind about America.

Quote
I think it is important for a nation to preserve a national identity by promoting a secular, national cult (in the true sense of the word).

I agree. This is obviously somewhat beneficial for the nation as a whole. If it was not, then why would most if not all countries have something similiar to the pledge along with a national symbol such as the flag??? Some of the people here seem to be expressing mild anarchist view points. If you also think about it on a different level, don't we do the same thing at the religious level in the church also? We have the creed (pledging to our faith) & symbols such as icons, & crosses. Also, parents do teach the faith at home, but our religous leaders in the church are also responsible in a greater sense. I see much parallels when it come to the health of the nation & is also important that we are all somewhat cohesive. The "Under God" part is also important because this is a recognizition that no government has ultimate authority & that our rights are derived from a higher source. This conflicts with the left I think because they are all for more government control, thus I think thier hissy fit with trying to chane the pledge. Also, do you think that the 85% that want the pledge to stay the same should be bullied around by a small minority???

Nacho,
I fully agree with you. Thanks for the dose of reality. If America is such a horrible/fascist, oppressive place, then why  do people from all over the world seek to live here?

I love america. I don't want it to be like frace of canada. If we were like them, or any other country, then we wouldn't be such a great nation. Out of gratitude for the good life that I live I thank God, and I thank America.

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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2004, 07:19:02 AM »

A few thoughts:

-I am not an anarchist. I believe in upholding just law and order. But I also believe in individual freedoms and that patriotism should not be forced down people's throats.

-I am not a communist either. But just because America may be better than some other countries doesn't mean everything is right about it. Many immigrants come to the USA because it's better for them there, but the same can be said about the plenty of immigrants who come to Canada, to France etc. Every country has its problems and these should be treated if possible.

-I think Canada is a freer country than the USA. Human rights are protected better, people tend to be more tolerant (not to generalize) and while there are certainly many of us (myself included) who love our country, we're not so pushy about this "we're the best" type patriotism. Also, Canada has more political parties to choose from at elections, our prime minister is not as powerful as the President of the United States, and we don't go around policing the world as much as the US.

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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2004, 08:02:13 AM »

Coming back to the God issue in this thread, I would like to ask you all: What are America's Christian values?  Are there any that are acceptable to an orthodox believer? And how would an orthodox believer show support of the same?

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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2004, 09:36:23 AM »

Quote
If you suffered under a real fascist, or communist country, I think you would probably change your mind about America.

Umm...I love living in this country.  This is the best nation on the planet as far as I'm concerned.  Never once anywhere did I say anything otherwise.  

However, I also don't want to start down a road that will lead it to ruin and I think a forced pledge of allegiance to a piece of cloth is just that.  I find it ironic that so-called conservatives who want the government to butt out of their respective lives find it necessary to force people to take such an oath.  Am I the only one who sees such this paradox?
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« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2004, 09:58:30 AM »

I think most conservatives want the government out of the lives of the people fiscally (taxes, business regulations, etc.) but want the government to be morally upright in the laws that it passes socially. I guess some see the pledge of allegiance as a vital part of American patriotism, necessary for the common good. Personally, while I think some conservatives go overboard with what they view as "morally upright laws," I think such an approach is better than the Libertarian approach, which wants government out of the lives of the people and doesn't seem to care a whit whether the government is morally upright.
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« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2004, 11:40:45 PM »

I find it ironic that so-called conservatives who want the government to butt out of their respective lives find it necessary to force people to take such an oath.  Am I the only one who sees such this paradox?

Nope!  Took the words right out of my mouth, y'did!

I am so TIRED of conservatives acting like they own patriotism:

I find it funny that there are so many people who hate america so much and are so opposed to little things like the pledge of allegence, but rarley say anything about the horrors of communism and socialism.

Wait a minute!!  To question something a nation does means that the person doing the questioning "hates" his or her country??  Or that the person must automatically be in bed with communist and/or socialist ideals? Puh-leeze.

Whatever happened to middle ground?  To gray areas?  To nuanced stances?  To thought-out, moderate reactions?
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2004, 12:44:08 PM »

You hit the nail straight on the head, Pedro, with those last comments. People sometimes see things in such a black and white way, it's irksome.
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