OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 07:01:18 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodox on converting to Catholicism  (Read 1983 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« on: February 02, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »

I'm not sure the absolute best way to phrase this question, but I'm wondering if any of you Orthodox could give me the "straight story" regarding Catholics and Protestants.

One the messages that I often hear from Orthodox is that it's a good thing for Anglicans and Protestants (as well those of us who don't fit nicely into any of the major categories) to convert to Catholicism -- not as good as converting to Orthodoxy but still better than staying as we are.

Another message that I often hear from Orthodox is that Papal Supremacy is not a legitimate doctrine, and may even be a heresy.

How can anyone reconcile these two messages? Is it a "good thing" to believe (or more precisely, to adhere with religious assent to) something that isn't true?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 11:44:34 AM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Manalive
Иоанн
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Russian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Moscow Patriarchate
Posts: 289


It is later than we think.


« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 11:59:54 AM »

I don't know whether or not I would have been so inclined to Orthodoxy if I hadn't acquired a taste for Liturgical worship in the Roman Catholic Church. I sort of see it as a stepping stone to Orthodoxy. Also, if there ever is reunifcation between the East and West-- and in my opinion that depends on Rome renouncing all of her errors-- the more eggs in Rome's basket to bring back into Orthodoxy. It might help shed some of the Evangelicalism that has the tendency to water down some things in Orthodoxy too. (I.E. ordaining Protestant priests with very little training in Orthodox seminary.)

But I would very much prefer Anglicans and Protestants to come into the fullness of the faith.  Smiley
Logged

"Lay hold of the pathway... rugged and narrow as it is."- St. John Chrystostom
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2012, 12:00:33 PM »

For me there is no difference if a Protestant converts to the RCC or Islam.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,193


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2012, 12:03:32 PM »

For me there is no difference if a Protestant converts to the RCC or Islam.
Wow. Strong.

Anyways, I know for me, I just found the Roman Church to be really intellectually and historically dishonest concerning its claims. I felt they made huge leaps of logic concerning the proofs for their claims. Im not attacking the RCC, its just how I felt. For me, I wanted the Early Church in its fullness, and I did alot of studying and looking around for it. I found it in Orthodoxy.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,119



« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »

No.  Both Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are abodes of error, and so I would never recommend a person switch errors.

I'm not sure the absolute best way to phrase this question, but I'm wondering if any of you Orthodox could give me the "straight story" regarding Catholics and Protestants.

One the messages that I often hear from Orthodox is that it's a good thing for Anglicans and Protestants (as well those of us who don't fit nicely into any of the major categories) to convert to Catholicism -- not as good as converting to Orthodoxy but still better than staying as we are.

Another message that I often hear from Orthodox is that Papal Supremacy is not a legitimate doctrine, and may even be a heresy.

How can anyone reconcile these two messages? Is it a "good thing" to believe (or more precisely, to adhere with religious assent to) something that isn't true?
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
stashko
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: ИСТОЧНИ ПРАВОСЛАВНИ СРБИН
Jurisdiction: Non Ecumenist Free Serbian Orthodox Church
Posts: 4,998


Wonderworking Sitka Icon


« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 12:36:57 PM »

 I want to convert to Roman Catholicism, Just to check out, What if feel's Like Having A Vicar Of Christ In Place of Christ, On this Earth ,A Supreme Pontiff ,And what the Big Deal Is........ Grin  kidding
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 12:43:51 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 01:54:23 PM »

I think I would prefer conservative high church Anglican to RC, but thats just me. Of course, I would prefer everyone comes to Orthodoxy whether it be western or eastern rite, makes no difference to me.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,140


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 02:00:55 PM »

I would perfer that ya'll come home to Rome.  Grin
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,193


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 02:09:58 PM »

I would perfer that ya'll come home to Rome.  Grin
Saw that comin' a mile away Wink

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,710


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 02:13:44 PM »

Of course, this can only be settled by a judo match.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2012, 03:03:31 PM »

I'm not sure the absolute best way to phrase this question, but I'm wondering if any of you Orthodox could give me the "straight story" regarding Catholics and Protestants.

One the messages that I often hear from Orthodox is that it's a good thing for Anglicans and Protestants (as well those of us who don't fit nicely into any of the major categories) to convert to Catholicism -- not as good as converting to Orthodoxy but still better than staying as we are.

Another message that I often hear from Orthodox is that Papal Supremacy is not a legitimate doctrine, and may even be a heresy.

How can anyone reconcile these two messages? Is it a "good thing" to believe (or more precisely, to adhere with religious assent to) something that isn't true?

I'm not sure how common it actually is--I haven't seen it a lot, though I'll accept that you have.

But when it happens the principle involved is that there are degrees of error--some things are farther from Orthodoxy than others. So while the 'best' answer is always to come home to Orthodoxy, if that's not in the cards, moving from more error to less error is still better than nothing.

Monotheistic Islam is closer to the truth and blood-sacrificing pagans. Oneness Pentecostals are closer to the truth than Islam. Traditional Baptists are closer than Oneness Pentecostals. Roman Catholicism is closer than traditional baptists.

The idea is not that it's a good thing to embrace error--but it is better to embrace fewer errors.
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 04:21:56 PM »

I'm not sure the absolute best way to phrase this question, but I'm wondering if any of you Orthodox could give me the "straight story" regarding Catholics and Protestants.

One the messages that I often hear from Orthodox is that it's a good thing for Anglicans and Protestants (as well those of us who don't fit nicely into any of the major categories) to convert to Catholicism -- not as good as converting to Orthodoxy but still better than staying as we are.

Another message that I often hear from Orthodox is that Papal Supremacy is not a legitimate doctrine, and may even be a heresy.

How can anyone reconcile these two messages? Is it a "good thing" to believe (or more precisely, to adhere with religious assent to) something that isn't true?

I'm not sure how common it actually is--I haven't seen it a lot, though I'll accept that you have.

But when it happens the principle involved is that there are degrees of error--some things are farther from Orthodoxy than others. So while the 'best' answer is always to come home to Orthodoxy, if that's not in the cards, moving from more error to less error is still better than nothing.

Monotheistic Islam is closer to the truth and blood-sacrificing pagans. Oneness Pentecostals are closer to the truth than Islam. Traditional Baptists are closer than Oneness Pentecostals. Roman Catholicism is closer than traditional baptists.

The idea is not that it's a good thing to embrace error--but it is better to embrace fewer errors.

That all makes sense. I guess the real issue, at least in part, is that people tend to lump all non-Catholic non-Orthodox Christians together.

So it makes sense to me if an Orthodox says e.g. "It's good when Baptists convert to Catholicism", whereas an unqualified "It's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism" doesn't make sense to me.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
jah777
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,766


« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2012, 04:34:43 PM »

So it makes sense to me if an Orthodox says e.g. "It's good when Baptists convert to Catholicism", whereas an unqualified "It's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism" doesn't make sense to me.

I've never before heard an Orthodox Christian say that its good for a person to convert to any faith other than Orthodox Christianity. 
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 12,634



WWW
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2012, 06:21:55 PM »

I would perfer that ya'll come home to Rome.  Grin

I am already home, and it's not Rome.
 Grin
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 06:23:04 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2012, 06:55:21 PM »

So it makes sense to me if an Orthodox says e.g. "It's good when Baptists convert to Catholicism", whereas an unqualified "It's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism" doesn't make sense to me.

I've never before heard an Orthodox Christian say that its good for a person to convert to any faith other than Orthodox Christianity.  

I'm certain that I have heard Orthodox say it's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism; although I'm starting to think it might not be as common as I thought it was.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2012, 07:06:43 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
witega
Is it enough now, to tell you you matter?
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,614


« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 12:18:58 AM »

I'm not sure the absolute best way to phrase this question, but I'm wondering if any of you Orthodox could give me the "straight story" regarding Catholics and Protestants.

One the messages that I often hear from Orthodox is that it's a good thing for Anglicans and Protestants (as well those of us who don't fit nicely into any of the major categories) to convert to Catholicism -- not as good as converting to Orthodoxy but still better than staying as we are.

Another message that I often hear from Orthodox is that Papal Supremacy is not a legitimate doctrine, and may even be a heresy.

How can anyone reconcile these two messages? Is it a "good thing" to believe (or more precisely, to adhere with religious assent to) something that isn't true?

I'm not sure how common it actually is--I haven't seen it a lot, though I'll accept that you have.

But when it happens the principle involved is that there are degrees of error--some things are farther from Orthodoxy than others. So while the 'best' answer is always to come home to Orthodoxy, if that's not in the cards, moving from more error to less error is still better than nothing.

Monotheistic Islam is closer to the truth and blood-sacrificing pagans. Oneness Pentecostals are closer to the truth than Islam. Traditional Baptists are closer than Oneness Pentecostals. Roman Catholicism is closer than traditional baptists.

The idea is not that it's a good thing to embrace error--but it is better to embrace fewer errors.

That all makes sense. I guess the real issue, at least in part, is that people tend to lump all non-Catholic non-Orthodox Christians together.

So it makes sense to me if an Orthodox says e.g. "It's good when Baptists convert to Catholicism", whereas an unqualified "It's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism" doesn't make sense to me.


Again speaking theoretically because, as I say, it's not a common sentiment in my own experience, but I would say the 'unqualified' could come from two sources--
1) There are some Orthodox who believe that Rome is closer to us than any Protestants. Past a certain point I'm not sure how you actually calculate 'degree of difference' so I'm by no means sure I agree with the thought, but I can at least see that argument. If one believes that then any move from Protestantism to Rome is a matter of getting closer (even if only very marginally) to Orthodoxy.
2) People generalize. I was raised in a non-liturgical, non-confessional church. Until about age 20, I don't think I ever met another Protestant who wasn't of that type (Campbellite, Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, Independent Bible Church, and so forth). I knew there were other types of Protestants out there, but I didn't actually know any of them, hadn't been to their services, hadn't discussed theology with them, etc. And even today, the majority of the Protestants I know are from that kind of background. So when I think or say "Protestant", my mental association/assumptions, tend to be of that type of Protestant. I'm certain I have before (and will again) make some comment about "Protestants this, Protestants that" when strictly speaking, I mean something closer to "Evangelical Protestants this or that".
Logged

Ariel Starling - New album

For it were better to suffer everything, rather than divide the Church of God. Even martyrdom for the sake of preventing division would not be less glorious than for refusing to worship idols. - St. Dionysius the Great
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 12:23:57 AM »

I would perfer that ya'll come home to Rome.  Grin
I almost did, no thanks to you.  Wink
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
xariskai
юродивый/yurodivy
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,259


יהוה עזי ומגני


« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2012, 12:41:54 AM »

No.  Both Protestantism and Roman Catholicism are abodes of error, and so I would never recommend a person switch errors.
Even on this view surely some errors are better than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a54iqEr1flQ
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 12:44:45 AM by xariskai » Logged

Silly Stars
James2
Mr.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: skeptic
Posts: 736



« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2012, 11:32:10 PM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism share many important attributes that are either missing or gravely weakened in most forms of Protestantism:

1.  The threefold ordained ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons in continuous succession from the Apostles. 

2.  Liturgical worship.

3.  Sacraments as effectual means of grace.

4.  Belief in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

5.  Belief in the sacrificial nature of the Mass/Divine Liturgy.

6.  Veneration of saints and their relics and images.

7.  Special devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, including belief in her perpetual virginity, sinlessness, and Assumption.

8.  Monasticism.

9.  Full acceptance of all seven Ecumenical Councils held by the undivided Church.

10.  Acceptance of several Old Testament books considered apocryphal by Protestants.

11.  Fasting at appointed times.

12.  Auricular confession.

13.  Recognition that chrismation/confirmation, ordination, matrimony, confession, and unction are sacraments.

14.  Prayer for the departed.

15.  Belief in a visible Church.

16.  Celibate episcopacy.

I am hard pressed to find very many areas in which Orthodoxy is closer to Protestantism than it is to Catholicism.  Two that come to mind are the enumeration of the ten commandments and decentralized church government.  Thus, I would say that from an Orthodox perspective, it is better for a Protestant to become Catholic than to remain Protestant.  Furthermore, with the important exception of point #9 above, I think that Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy have much more in common with each other than either of them do with Protestantism.
Logged
Tikhon.of.Colorado
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archdiocese of Denver
Posts: 2,362



« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 12:03:26 AM »

 Cheesy  When I first started attending the Orthodox Church, my mom told her very religious RC friend.  She responded with "Well, it's like Catholicism so I guess that's good..."   Wink


Orthodoxy is the truth, as I remember the word breaks down to correct worship.

Orthodoxy is Christ's Church.  Any other church/group/sect is heresy.  I'd say that it's best of one converts to Orthodoxy.  Not to say that theirs not holiness and holy people outside Orthodoxy, they are just confused Holy People, led to believe heresy as truth.


Theirs Orthodox and then there's non-Orthodox.  That is all   Smiley



I would agree that it's better to embrace less errors (Evangelical -> RC), but Orthodoxy is the TRUTH, the CHURCH.  It's as good as it gets, basically Wink  .


There were times, even recently, where I've thought again about the truth of all of this denomination nonsence.  I've wondered if what my JW friend keeps telling me in his little magazines is true, I've wondered if the Roman Catholic Church that my zealous grandmother loved so much was the truth.  I've even wondered if Judaism and Islam were the truth. 

I just listened to my heart.  Orthodoxy is the Faith for the world.  It's the ark of salvation for everyone.  I just hope everyone jumps on before the end.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 12:11:48 AM by trevor72694 » Logged

"It is true that I am not always faithful, but I never lose courage, I leave myself in the Arms of Our Lord." - St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Paisius
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Multi-Jurisdictional
Posts: 816


Reframed


« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2012, 12:28:06 AM »

For me there is no difference if a Protestant converts to the RCC or Islam.


That is completely ridiculous.
Logged

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2012, 12:30:10 AM »

I'd certainly prefer that someone be a devout Catholic rather than a godless libertine.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Paisius
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Multi-Jurisdictional
Posts: 816


Reframed


« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2012, 12:31:01 AM »

I would certainly say it is much better to be Roman Catholic than Protestant. The reason is they still retain the bulk of Apostolic Tradition. Also I believe there is at least some grace in Roman sacraments, a belief I share with many other Orthodox.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 12:31:28 AM by Paisius » Logged

"Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?" - Milton Friedman
Opus118
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,424



« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2012, 01:04:21 AM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism share many important attributes that are either missing or gravely weakened in most forms of Protestantism:

1.  The threefold ordained ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons in continuous succession from the Apostles. 

2.  Liturgical worship.

3.  Sacraments as effectual means of grace.

4.  Belief in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

5.  Belief in the sacrificial nature of the Mass/Divine Liturgy.

6.  Veneration of saints and their relics and images.

7.  Special devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, including belief in her perpetual virginity, sinlessness, and Assumption.

8.  Monasticism.

9.  Full acceptance of all seven Ecumenical Councils held by the undivided Church.

10.  Acceptance of several Old Testament books considered apocryphal by Protestants.

11.  Fasting at appointed times.

12.  Auricular confession.

13.  Recognition that chrismation/confirmation, ordination, matrimony, confession, and unction are sacraments.

14.  Prayer for the departed.

15.  Belief in a visible Church.

16.  Celibate episcopacy.

I am hard pressed to find very many areas in which Orthodoxy is closer to Protestantism than it is to Catholicism.  Two that come to mind are the enumeration of the ten commandments and decentralized church government.  Thus, I would say that from an Orthodox perspective, it is better for a Protestant to become Catholic than to remain Protestant.  Furthermore, with the important exception of point #9 above, I think that Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy have much more in common with each other than either of them do with Protestantism.

I appreciate the reality check. These distinctions often become blurred with time.
Logged
JamesRottnek
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Anglican
Jurisdiction: Episcopal Diocese of Arizona
Posts: 5,103


I am Bibleman; putting 'the' back in the Ukraine


« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2012, 01:24:11 AM »

Of course, for each of the things that may make it easier for Protestants (who convert to Catholicism) to become Orthodox, there are new things they have to accept that are not part of Orthodoxy, such as a mandatory celibate priesthood, the papacy (and the infallibility of the pope), an elevated role for the Theotokos, amongst others.
Logged

I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice.  Can you guess what it is?

The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.

American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.

Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,402



WWW
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2012, 01:34:50 AM »

I'm not sure the absolute best way to phrase this question, but I'm wondering if any of you Orthodox could give me the "straight story" regarding Catholics and Protestants.

One the messages that I often hear from Orthodox is that it's a good thing for Anglicans and Protestants (as well those of us who don't fit nicely into any of the major categories) to convert to Catholicism -- not as good as converting to Orthodoxy but still better than staying as we are.

Another message that I often hear from Orthodox is that Papal Supremacy is not a legitimate doctrine, and may even be a heresy.

How can anyone reconcile these two messages? Is it a "good thing" to believe (or more precisely, to adhere with religious assent to) something that isn't true?

I'm not sure how common it actually is--I haven't seen it a lot, though I'll accept that you have.

But when it happens the principle involved is that there are degrees of error--some things are farther from Orthodoxy than others. So while the 'best' answer is always to come home to Orthodoxy, if that's not in the cards, moving from more error to less error is still better than nothing.

Monotheistic Islam is closer to the truth and blood-sacrificing pagans. Oneness Pentecostals are closer to the truth than Islam. Traditional Baptists are closer than Oneness Pentecostals. Roman Catholicism is closer than traditional baptists.

The idea is not that it's a good thing to embrace error--but it is better to embrace fewer errors.

That all makes sense. I guess the real issue, at least in part, is that people tend to lump all non-Catholic non-Orthodox Christians together.

So it makes sense to me if an Orthodox says e.g. "It's good when Baptists convert to Catholicism", whereas an unqualified "It's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism" doesn't make sense to me.


I think a lot of it springs from many cradle Orthodox (or Orthodox who have converted from RC, for that matter) not having a firm grasp of the fact that Protestantism is not some sort of monolithic teaching, but that instead there is nuance between denominations, going from more "High Church" to more "Radical Reformation". And as well, Protestant converts themselves may not have much experience outside of their denomination or the broader genre of their denomination- An Orthodox convert in smalltown Mississippi might think anyone who has a high sacramental view of the Eucharist is either Catholic or Orthodox, not having ever stepped foot inside a Lutheran or High Church Episcopalian Church. And, let's face it, in America High Church Protestantism is fairly rare, a minority amongst Lutherans and Episcopalians who themselves are a minority; this goes to further reinforcing the perception that Protestantism is a Low Church phenomenon. Coming from such an extremely Low Church viewpoint of Protestantism, either due to experience or stereotyping, I can see how Roman Catholicism might seem to be better than "Protestantism"- you have the added heresy of papalism, but you don't have the impoverished sacramentality of Evangelicalism.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2012, 09:12:15 AM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism share many important attributes that are either missing or gravely weakened in most forms of Protestantism:
...

I can definitely agree that those things are missing or gravely weakened for the majority of Protestants. After all, Lutherans and Anglicans together only make up a small fractions of Protestants overall, less than a quarter (even less in this country as FormerReformer also pointed out). And even out of that fraction, Anglo-Catholics and the like only make up a small fraction.  Sad But hey, what we lack in numbers, we make up in letters.  Grin
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Timon
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,490



« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2012, 10:56:55 AM »

Orthodoxy and Catholicism share many important attributes that are either missing or gravely weakened in most forms of Protestantism:

1.  The threefold ordained ministry of bishops, priests, and deacons in continuous succession from the Apostles. 

2.  Liturgical worship.

3.  Sacraments as effectual means of grace.

4.  Belief in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

5.  Belief in the sacrificial nature of the Mass/Divine Liturgy.

6.  Veneration of saints and their relics and images.

7.  Special devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos, including belief in her perpetual virginity, sinlessness, and Assumption.

8.  Monasticism.

9.  Full acceptance of all seven Ecumenical Councils held by the undivided Church.

10.  Acceptance of several Old Testament books considered apocryphal by Protestants.

11.  Fasting at appointed times.

12.  Auricular confession.

13.  Recognition that chrismation/confirmation, ordination, matrimony, confession, and unction are sacraments.

14.  Prayer for the departed.

15.  Belief in a visible Church.

16.  Celibate episcopacy.

I am hard pressed to find very many areas in which Orthodoxy is closer to Protestantism than it is to Catholicism.  Two that come to mind are the enumeration of the ten commandments and decentralized church government.  Thus, I would say that from an Orthodox perspective, it is better for a Protestant to become Catholic than to remain Protestant.  Furthermore, with the important exception of point #9 above, I think that Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy have much more in common with each other than either of them do with Protestantism.

Most protestant churches today (im familiar with and still involved with a lot of them) dont have ANY of those things! ha.  The exception would be lutherans and anglicans I guess.
Logged

Even if we have thousands of acts of great virtue to our credit, our confidence in being heard must be based on God's mercy and His love for men. Even if we stand at the very summit of virtue, it is by mercy that we shall be saved.

— Chrysostom

BLOG
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2012, 05:04:10 PM »

But hey, what we lack in numbers, we make up in letters.  Grin

Boy, tough crowd.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,500



« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2012, 05:10:02 PM »

I would perfer that ya'll come home to Rome.  Grin

I'm already there. My patriarch is archbishop of New Rome. Wink
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,038



« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2012, 05:13:27 PM »

I've never before heard an Orthodox Christian say that its good for a person to convert to any faith other than Orthodox Christianity.  

I'm certain that I have heard Orthodox say it's good when Protestants convert to Catholicism; although I'm starting to think it might not be as common as I thought it was.

As I said, it might not be terribly common, but I've definitely heard it, e.g.

No offense to Peter, but following what Podkarpatska, I can't really disagree with Rome's assessment. :/ Things may have been different in the early 20th century, but ISTM that the Anglican Communion is a chaotic mess and I don't know anyone could determine differently. They should either become RC or Orthodox, IMHO.

In Christ,
Andrew

Also, the following post isn't about conversion, but it definitely expresses a very different attitude Protestants than toward Catholics/Orthodox (emphasis added):

Here is the sticking point and it is one that those of us who either personally, or through our family narratives, were involved in property disputes here in North America can understand:


"Speaking about the seizure of Orthodox churches in Ukraine by Greek Catholics, the Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church."

To those who retained their Greek Catholic faith during the periods of state enforced persecution, the property transfers in western Ukraine are not 'seizures' but legitimate 'recoveries.' For example, the Greek Catholic Cathedrals in Uzhorod and Muchachevo were both built in the post-Unia era in the 18th and 19th centuries, so to the Greek Catholics they were unlawfully 'seized' as a result of state actions in 1947.

To those who legitimately professed Orthodoxy both prior to and following 1947, their views on the subject are obviously different and need to be respected by the Greek Catholic community as well before any meaningful progress can be achieved.

As to those who sit in places like Moscow, Athens or in comfortable places in the west who abstractly pine about the historical wrongs caused by the unia in the first instance, I can only say that it is far easier to pontificate on a subject than to understand it from first hand experience.

Keep in mind also that for eastern Europe, all of this is recent history as only twenty years have passed. When I was a kid in the 1960's, some twenty years following the end of the period of litigation and church building following the second schism in the American Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, my church friends would literally 'cross the street' rather than pass in front of the newly constructed BCC church next door. Their children would 'hold their breath and look the other way' when passing St. Michael's. This pattern was repeated across the Northeast and Midwestern United States in countless cities, towns and hamlets where churches were split during that time period.

Today our peoples and our leaders remain separated by faith and most are comfortable with the choices that fate presented us, but we no longer have the 'hatred' and passion that existed years ago. Most of us have learned to cherish that which we possess in common and to try to understand those things which keep us apart. It is a tough road, but not an impossible one to follow.

To expect the Ukrainians and the Russians to 'kiss and make up' only twenty years after the collapse of the USSR and the restoration of the Greek Catholic church is unrealistic - for both sides. Of course the Ukrainian problems are compounded by the fractures within the Orthodox communities in Ukraine and the relationships, and lack thereof, which the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are developing with some of the Orthodox on purely nationalistic grounds.

I would only ask those who are far removed from that situation, as well as the parallel ones in Slovakia and Romania to not be quick to judge our brothers and sisters as none of you have walked the proverbial mile in their shoes - either Orthodox or Greek Catholic ones for that matter.

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 05:14:42 PM by Peter J » Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,402



WWW
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2012, 05:38:19 PM »

But hey, what we lack in numbers, we make up in letters.  Grin

Boy, tough crowd.
I for one find it highly derivative of my own frequently used "alphabet soup" joke  Tongue- that and it probably went over the heads of any Orthodox posters unfamiliar with High Church Protestantism's interesting trend to schism and splinter. Cradle and used-to-be Catholics and Evangelicals probably thought you were making a dig at the Orthodox themselves- we also have small numbers in America and an alphabet soup problem- just in our case some of the alphabet soup is actually in communion with each other- though it is a fair bet that the longer the string of letters the fewer people the church is in communion with.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.157 seconds with 59 queries.