Author Topic: Missionary position...  (Read 2830 times)

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Offline Shiny

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Missionary position...
« on: January 31, 2012, 08:18:17 PM »
Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse? I can't recall why Aquinas pushed that as well...
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 08:20:53 PM »
Some Orthodox did as well. Other positions were considered unnatural or "imitating animals"...
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Shiny

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 08:22:04 PM »
I see, has the RCC changed it's position since then? If so, why?
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 08:24:02 PM »
I'm not sure, but fwiw the book that I read most about it as regards the Orthodox was Sex and Society in the World of the Orthodox Slavs, 900-1700, by Eve Levin.  One would assume (or just hope) that both Churches have changed on this.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Shiny

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 08:27:23 PM »
I'm not sure, but fwiw the book that I read most about it as regards the Orthodox was Sex and Society in the World of the Orthodox Slavs, 900-1700, by Eve Levin.  One would assume (or just hope) that both Churches have changed on this.
I see is that your book review on Amazon?  :police:
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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 08:28:26 PM »
Yeah, that's mine... but remember my motto: don't trust anything I said before this post ;)  ;D

EDIT--I just reread my review of that book from 6 1/2 years ago... ugh, I really do cringe when I read what I wrote years ago!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:31:50 PM by Asteriktos »
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Shiny

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 08:33:33 PM »
Yeah, that's mine... but remember my motto: don't trust anything I said before this post ;)  ;D

EDIT--I just reread my review of that book from 6 1/2 years ago... ugh, I really do cringe when I read what I wrote years ago!
Haha some guy called you pompous for your review on The Idiot.
“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 08:35:27 PM »
Yeah, that's mine... but remember my motto: don't trust anything I said before this post ;)  ;D

EDIT--I just reread my review of that book from 6 1/2 years ago... ugh, I really do cringe when I read what I wrote years ago!
Haha some guy called you pompous for your review on The Idiot.

True enough, lol :)  Though that book does read like a soap opera at times, and no one is telling me differently!
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline William

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 08:41:52 PM »
Yeah, that's mine... but remember my motto: don't trust anything I said before this post ;)  ;D

EDIT--I just reread my review of that book from 6 1/2 years ago... ugh, I really do cringe when I read what I wrote years ago!

Hey Asteriktos, how does Levin attempt "to give information that helps to put the practices [of making a raped girl marry her rapist] into their proper historical context"?
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 08:55:12 PM »
Yeah, that's mine... but remember my motto: don't trust anything I said before this post ;)  ;D

EDIT--I just reread my review of that book from 6 1/2 years ago... ugh, I really do cringe when I read what I wrote years ago!

Hey Asteriktos, how does Levin attempt "to give information that helps to put the practices [of making a raped girl marry her rapist] into their proper historical context"?

I don't recall off hand, and I no longer own the book so I can't look it up. If I had to guess, though, I would think she probably explained how someone in that situation would be considered poorly by society, and that if she didn't marry the guy (as also happens in the Old Testament--Deuteronomy I think), she might end up homeless and die. Also, I don't think that rape necessarily means the most violent thing, but may also mean just some older guy taking advantage of a naive girl or something along those lines (a sort of "statutory rape" of sorts)... but again, I'm just shooting from the hip here as I don't remember.
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline William

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 08:57:21 PM »
Okay, thanks.
Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Offline That person

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 09:02:15 PM »
I may be wrong, but I think it used to be believed that non-missionary sex decreased or negated the chances of conception, so was considered a form of contraception and condemned under the same reasoning. Since science has shown that to be false, the RCC has revised its views accordingly.
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Offline username!

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2012, 12:19:22 AM »
chaulk it up to celibate guys telling married folk how to embrace their marriage  ::) 

Offline Shiny

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2012, 04:49:31 AM »
I may be wrong, but I think it used to be believed that non-missionary sex decreased or negated the chances of conception, so was considered a form of contraception and condemned under the same reasoning. Since science has shown that to be false, the RCC has revised its views accordingly.
That maybe true. Could it be that missionary position was used to curb lust and more grandiose sexuality? It seems to me the Church viewed sex as a vehicle for conception and never for pleasure.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 04:57:01 AM »
Could it be that missionary position was used to curb lust
I believe this hypothesis has been dis-proven.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 04:57:26 AM »
Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse?
Probably has to do with faces.
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 07:40:41 AM »
I may be wrong, but I think it used to be believed that non-missionary sex decreased or negated the chances of conception, so was considered a form of contraception and condemned under the same reasoning. Since science has shown that to be false, the RCC has revised its views accordingly.
There was a Rabbinical saying that a child conceived dorsally will have a squint in their eye. I wonder if that passed into Christian lore.

But basically I think the imitating animals (and pagans and homosexuals) argument is what it was.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:43:39 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 07:46:16 AM »
Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse?
Probably has to do with faces.
That too. Supposedly it reduces sex to just lust (one wonders why the "holes-in-sheets" stereotype wasn't reality in Patristic teaching...)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 07:47:04 AM by Volnutt »
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 04:51:55 PM »
Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse?
Probably has to do with faces.
That too. Supposedly it reduces sex to just lust (one wonders why the "holes-in-sheets" stereotype wasn't reality in Patristic teaching...)
Well, the idea is that it is more emotionally significant to have sex face-to-face, because humans are more reliant on facial recognition than virtually any other being.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 04:52:15 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

Πλούσιοι επτώχευσαν και επείνασαν
Οιδε εκζητούντες τον Κύριον
Ουκ ελαττωθήσονται παντός αγαθού

Offline Punch

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 05:12:27 PM »
So, I guess the old paper bag is a no-no.

Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse?
Probably has to do with faces.
That too. Supposedly it reduces sex to just lust (one wonders why the "holes-in-sheets" stereotype wasn't reality in Patristic teaching...)
Well, the idea is that it is more emotionally significant to have sex face-to-face, because humans are more reliant on facial recognition than virtually any other being.
I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2012, 05:23:23 PM »
Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse?
Probably has to do with faces.
That too. Supposedly it reduces sex to just lust (one wonders why the "holes-in-sheets" stereotype wasn't reality in Patristic teaching...)
Well, the idea is that it is more emotionally significant to have sex face-to-face, because humans are more reliant on facial recognition than virtually any other being.
No lights off huh?
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2012, 05:36:15 PM »
Who was it that said to approach the marriage bed with regret?

PP
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Offline LBK

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2012, 07:34:37 PM »
Who was it that said to approach the marriage bed with regret?

PP

Nothing like that is in the Orthodox marriage service!
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2012, 07:36:17 PM »
Who was it that said to approach the marriage bed with regret?

PP
I've never heard this before. Not saying that it hasn't been said...just that I have never personally heard it.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2012, 08:40:49 PM »
Who was it that said to approach the marriage bed with regret?

PP
IIRC St. Augustine, though St. Jerome had similar beliefs once quipping that "even martyrdom cannot wash away the stain of matrimony." I thought I read once that St. Basil had a similarly low view of marriage (must have been a hoot to see him interact with his brother's wife). Tertullian was also a little strange about it.
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I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2012, 08:41:29 PM »
Why did the Roman Catholic Church endorse only the missionary position as a form of sexual intercourse?
Probably has to do with faces.
That too. Supposedly it reduces sex to just lust (one wonders why the "holes-in-sheets" stereotype wasn't reality in Patristic teaching...)
Well, the idea is that it is more emotionally significant to have sex face-to-face, because humans are more reliant on facial recognition than virtually any other being.
I see.
Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words. -Goethe

I once heard a monk say, “The person of prayer does not need to go any further than his own heart to find the source of all violence in the world.” -Fr. Stephen Freeman

Offline HabteSelassie

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Re: Missionary position...
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2012, 10:57:32 PM »
Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

This very thread and discussion poignantly illustrates some of the flaws in the scholastic approach and legalism of the Latin jurisdiction.  This has always been the existential and ontological dichotomy between Western and Eastern thought in Christendom.  In the Eastern approach, such matters are not necessarily matters of dogma, canons, or pulpits, rather they are individual discussions between a Confessor and a married couple.  The Orthodox approach is to individualize rather then legalize or criminalize morality in the Church, based on the progress and level where each individual is at in their walk along the Way. To be sure there are certain canons and such within Orthodox which discuss these kinds of intimate or personal matters, however they are not intended for the en mass public rather they are intended for Confessors and priests to consult and individualize for the specific needs, circumstances, and situations of each person.  Further, much like how human beings are inherent hypochondriac and so whenever we read WebMD we suddenly have every disease we read about, the same is with sin, when folks consults canons and Scriptures about sin, suddenly everything is sin, but one of the very purposes of Confession is to sort exactly what is sin, and what isn't. 

It is the spirit, not the letter of the laws which are important. It is up to our spiritual Fathers to interpret the quality or lack there of within our married sex lives.  They can help us to understand what is lust and what is lawful, what is selfish and what is communicative. Whether folks realize it or not, sex is the deepest form of communication between human beings, so much so that it carries the potential to bring a new life into the world. However, sometimes things get lost in translation..

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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