OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 01:04:59 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill (MP) - Meeting with the Pope is Not Yet Possible  (Read 4147 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,488


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2012, 10:55:02 AM »

While I was out and about I realized I missed a couple. 

So in a ten minute walk from my house:
1 protestant mega church type thing that is huge
3 moderately sized protestant congregations
1 smallish protestant congregation

1 Orthodox parish about the same size as a single moderate protestant one.   

And the demographics are not stacked in favor of the Orthodox either.  80% or so of the people in attendance at Sunday liturgy are over 50.  My impressions of the Protestants seem to be they are younger and more often complete families.  That's why I get frustrated at flippantly dismissing Protestantism in Ukraine.  The above description is pretty typical of the big russophone cities of Ukraine: Kyiv, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Donetsk, Odessa, etc.  Central and Western Ukraine as well as the rural East are a different story altogether. 
Yeah. I know the problem that I face is that the young have no care about traditional things. Protestant services require nothing and are specifically marketed to get these kids. modern music, casual attire, and less theology more feel-good is really prevalent. It is really an "entertain me" mentality. It is all fluff and show, where substance is considered by how things are presented.

My son is a perfect example. As I have explained before, I allow him to go to a Church on wednesday nights to be with his friends and to be somewhere with them that I know they are being monitored. He gets very upset about it when he can not go, for whatever reason. Now, he thoroughly enjoys the youth thing on that night, and I went to observe what was done. It was games and music and things, with hardly any teaching whatsoever. He also goes with me and my wife to liturgy every sunday. He is a zombie. Pays no attention to anything, does not participate (although he did ask what it was all for, and he did understand it when I explained it to him) and show no interest in Orthodoxy (he does have a surprising amount of thought about God, and I have caught him literally weeping for his friend's soul on one occasion).

The problem, not just with my boy, but our society in general, is that we have been trained to expect entertainment and everything to be wrapped in a fun little box. If its not entertaining, most folks want nothing to do with it. Protestantism, especially what I like to call, "new protestantism" is more of a marketing strategy that can chage its message to fit the group they're talking to.

These kids will eventually become adults, and expect the same thing, and pass it to their kids. So seeing the average age of 50 in a parish does not surprise me at all. I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 14,074


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2012, 03:35:18 PM »

I've seen megachurches in my area that are the size of college campuses. It gets me to think, why don't they just call them cathedrals?  Huh
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2012, 09:43:49 AM »

I've seen megachurches in my area that are the size of college campuses. It gets me to think, why don't they just call them cathedrals?  Huh

I think some of them do actually. (I could be mistaken, I've never been involved with megachurches.)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2012, 11:49:24 AM »

Yeah. I know the problem that I face is that the young have no care about traditional things. Protestant services require nothing and are specifically marketed to get these kids. modern music, casual attire, and less theology more feel-good is really prevalent. It is really an "entertain me" mentality. It is all fluff and show, where substance is considered by how things are presented.

To ascribe less than stellar motives to all Protestants simply doesn't square with reality.  I've met many deeply sincere Protestants and many Orthodox who are in the Church for reasons far more banal than entertainment.
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2012, 11:59:34 AM »

To ascribe less than stellar motives to all Protestants simply doesn't square with reality. 

I agree that over-generalizing isn't a good idea. Neither is spreading rumors about others, which I guess is why I get a little impatient about the fact that no one has answered my question:

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,488


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2012, 01:09:35 PM »

Yeah. I know the problem that I face is that the young have no care about traditional things. Protestant services require nothing and are specifically marketed to get these kids. modern music, casual attire, and less theology more feel-good is really prevalent. It is really an "entertain me" mentality. It is all fluff and show, where substance is considered by how things are presented.

To ascribe less than stellar motives to all Protestants simply doesn't square with reality.  I've met many deeply sincere Protestants and many Orthodox who are in the Church for reasons far more banal than entertainment.
Im not saying all Protestants have ulterior motives. But what I am saying is that our culture as a whole is very "entertain me" oriented, and many Protestant churches market what they do towards that end to get people in the doors. Their motives are good (most of them anyways) but good or no, they are still playing to what the crowd wants.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2012, 05:00:07 PM »

But what I am saying is that our culture as a whole is very "entertain me" oriented, and many Protestant churches market what they do towards that end to get people in the doors. Their motives are good (most of them anyways) but good or no, they are still playing to what the crowd wants

But that is your culture, not my culture. 
Logged
stpaulphilip
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Serbian
Posts: 59



« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2012, 05:08:02 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

Why are you offended?  Are you protestant?  How could you be offended if you are not protestant?  Protestantism has spread it's modernism through theology and music into the Catholic Church and it is starting to affect the Orthodox Church, too.  It is like a cancer that is killing Christianity.  I won't say all protestants are like that, especially not Anglicans, but the baptists most certainly are.  They do indeed hate Orthodoxy (I know, I'm a convert) and they attempt to steal away Orthodox youth by inviting them to their rock concert church services.  Be offended, and who cares. 
Logged

Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2012, 08:33:37 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

Why are you offended?  Are you protestant? 

Possibly you meant this as a rheotical question, since you can see that my profile says Faith: High Church Catholic (*), but I'll answer it anyhow: no, I'm not Protestant.

How could you be offended if you are not protestant? 

I don't follow your logic. I've never been Orthodox either, yet I'm offended by anti-Orthodox prejudice. Why wouldn't I also be offended by anti-Protestant prejudice?
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2012, 02:39:29 AM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2012, 09:27:00 AM »

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox

I'll try.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2012, 12:07:11 PM »

It's too late to edit that last post, but I should have said: I try to be thick-skinned on this forum, while at the same time opposing anti-Catholic prejudice and anti-Protestant prejudice.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
IreneOlinyk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox (EP)
Posts: 203


« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2012, 02:17:56 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2012, 04:37:44 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

Nonetheless there are still plenty of Catholics in Russia. See the wiki article on Roman Catholics in Russia.  Imagine how furious people here would be if Western countries treated Orthodox clerics in such a manner (denying them visas and otherwise disrupting church life).   
Logged
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,953


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2012, 05:02:33 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2012, 05:20:58 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 
Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2012, 06:39:01 PM »

See the wiki article on Roman Catholics in Russia. 

I found this a bit surprising:

Quote
A 2004 Ecumenical conference was organized for Russia's "traditional religions" Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism, and therefore excluded Catholicism,[28] despite the fact that the Catholic population in Russia is roughly similar in size to the Buddhists and now larger than the Jews (due to Jewish emigration). Ethnic Russian Catholics still tend to face pressure and stigma for belonging to an "alien" sect.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Orest
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 989


« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2012, 11:55:26 AM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 

Good point.  Alsdo the new Orthodox cathedral in Paris is to serve Christians who are already orthodox not to steasl sheep from the catholic Church.
Logged
Νεκτάριος
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,437



« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2012, 12:00:14 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 

Good point.  Alsdo the new Orthodox cathedral in Paris is to serve Christians who are already orthodox not to steasl sheep from the catholic Church.

So if a Catholic goes to the parish and wishes to convert they will be turned away?
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 
Actually not all of them:lots of Latin Poles (not sure about Lithuanians) and Lutheran Finns, Germans and Estonians (I don't know about Latvians) ended up in Russian America, which wasn't a penal colony.  Some ended up in Siberia by there own will.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it. 
Sure it does.  The French and Poles occupied it a couple times.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Gorazd
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: The Ecumenical Patriarchate of Istanbul and Chambésy
Posts: 1,955



« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2012, 12:24:26 PM »

It seems to me that Orthodoxy (including uncanonical parishes) is not that small in Kyiv. Though there is quite a big Protestant presence. Also, the Ukrainian language seems to be getting stronger in Kyiv, also as a form of protest against Yanukovich. So it is not really the same as Donetsk.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,266


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2012, 04:40:33 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Punch
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Body of Christ
Posts: 5,572



« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2012, 05:53:34 PM »

Thank God for the documents, because their actions certainly leave one confused.

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
Logged

I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2012, 06:14:31 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that his
Quote
If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
comment was directed at his fellow Orthodox.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,953


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2012, 12:03:45 AM »

Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

Says I and any other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates.  And the Anglicans now have two parishes in Rome and 10 in the rest of Italy.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Nadege
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 93


« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2012, 12:13:12 AM »

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here). 
Very true.

Those who read in Russian can see for themselves what horrendous hostility and ignorance reign in Russian Orthodox forums - be it towards Catholics, Protestants, Jews, non-Russians, you name it.

I tried to post at a Russian Orthodox forum recently - LOL.  The conversation was about an interview with different girls who participated in Russian beauty contests.  Girls gave informal interviews, they were not wearing makeup and just shared things about their lives.

My post: Wonderful girls!
The next immediate answer to my post: A good girl will not go to a beauty contest.  That's the kind of girls with whom men like to "have fun" but they will not marry them.  And a woman's God-given duty is motherhood!

My reaction: OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!  Guess I won't be posting HERE very often. :-))))))))))))))))))))))))
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2012, 01:32:34 AM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
You know very well that the Vatican did not hold religious freedom in high regard. Or perhaps you didn't. Or don't want to face that?  Havn't you read the Summa Theologica?
Quote
With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3
Or are you saying that your ecclesial community began in 1962?  We know that the disciples of Aquinas in the 19th century embraced the idea of "development of doctrine," but nothing in the documents of Vatican II prevent it from developing back to its Thomist roots.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2012, 01:32:34 AM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
Thank God for the documents, because their actions certainly leave one confused.
We are not supposed to look at that.  We are supposed to see what we are told.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2012, 07:08:47 PM »

Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.
Says I and any other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates.
Ah, a true Scottsman I see!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
That leaves out your Angelic Doctor.
You know very well that the Vatican did not hold religious freedom in high regard. Or perhaps you didn't. Or don't want to face that?  Havn't you read the Summa Theologica?
Quote
With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3
Or are you saying that your ecclesial community began in 1962?  We know that the disciples of Aquinas in the 19th century embraced the idea of "development of doctrine," but nothing in the documents of Vatican II prevent it from developing back to its Thomist roots.
On him your supreme pontiff says
Quote
No true Catholic has ever ventured to call in question the opinion of the Angelic Doctor
http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/doctoris.htm

Speaking of cherishing the freedom to worship as his conscience dictates
And the Anglicans now have two parishes in Rome and 10 in the rest of Italy.
You will notice that the Vatican had to be defanged in 1870 for that to happen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara#Reaction_and_opposition

How about the Greeks?  If the English can have their pro-cathedral and bishop in the Archdeaconry of Italy and Malta, why not the Greeks who are native to Italy and Malta (both Greek names) having their own bishop?  Indeed, supposedly your supreme pontiffs had that very idea:
Quote
The Italo-Greeks are subject to the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishops; several times, but in vain, they have sought exemption. However, the popes have long wished them to have a titular archbishop, resident in Rome, for the ordination of their priests, and to lend splendour to Divine service. The first of these was Gabriele, titular Archbishop of Mitylene. When Clement XII established the Corsini College, he placed it in charge of a resident bishop or archbishop of the Greek Rite.
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08206a.htm

If the North African Pope St. Victor could introduce Latin into Roman rite after its first century had passed, why couldn't the Italo-Greeks preserve the original Greek, not replaced by Latin until after three centuries?  They had their own school and plenty of monasteries in Rome itself.  They still have (continuously since before the schism of 1054) a monastery at Grottaferrata in Rome, a half hour from Vatican City, why can't they have a bishop there, a bishop, or rather, patriarch of Rome?  What about the Albanians who now make up most of the flock of the "Italo-Greek Catholic Church"?  Can't they have their own bishop of Rome?

Can the Italo-Greek/Albanians go off to Rome and set up their see?  The Ukrainians in submission to the Vatican went off to Kiev, and, despite lacking canonical authority to do so, they did get the Curia to rubber stamp it, and they are trying to erect a patriarch the same way, the canons they supposedly accept be damned.  Why can't the Italo-Greek/Albanians do likewise?

The Vatican had no problem with setting up four patriarchs in Antioch-Latin, Melkite, Syriac and Maronite, only one of which is native to Antioch itself.  Why not a "Greek Catholic" Patriarch of Rome and "Albanian Catholic" Patriarch of Rome?  After all, the official title, given and recognized by the Vatican is "Italian Byzantine-Catholic Church," and did not the Metropolitan of Italy resided at Rome traditionally?

Why does the Milanese rite not have its own "sui juris" status? Before the promulgation of ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM, the 22 "sui juris" were just rites like the Ambrosian: that the Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium lumps all 22 non-Latin "sui juris churches" together while giving them "sui juris" status gives the Milanese (and Mozarabic, Bragan, etc.) the basis for such status under the Code of Canon Law. Or it should. The Milanese had their bishop of Rome (Paul VI) presiding over Vatican II.  Why shouldn't the Milanese rite, which numbers in the millions in Italy-more in fact than ANY of the 22 Eastern "sui juris churches"-have its own Patriarch of Rome, like the Vatican approves the Melkites, Syriacs, Maronites (the distance from Antioch to Mt. Lebanon being comparable to the distance from Rome to the Diocese of Milan, and the distance from Milan to Rome being almost exactly that of Lviv to Kiev)  and (formerly) the Latins/Crusaders (which still have their church in Antioch) all putting their own patriarch on the chair of St. Peter at Antioch? 

Since the Vatican has made the Albanian Use, Belarus Use, Bulgarian Use, Croatian Use, Greek Use, Hungarian Use, Macedonian Use, Melkite Use, Romanian Use, Russian Use, Ruthenian Use, Slovak Use and Ukrainian Use into their own "sui juris churches," what is to prevent the "Anglican Use" from demanding the same?  The Ukrainians seem to think that they can elevate their "sui juris church" into a "patriarchate" with the Vatican, why can't the Anglicans elevate their Use to "sui juris" and translate their bishop to Rome, like the UGCC went from Lviv to Kiev, and have their own Anglican Patriarch of Rome?  After all, the "the Anglicans now have two parishes in Rome and 10 in the rest of Italy." 

The Russian "sui juris church" doesn't even have as much in all of much larger Russia, and yet they demand bishops, and no doubt, imitating their Ukrainian kin, will demand their own Patriarch of Moscow as well.  In fact, as the "Russian Catholic sui juris church" has a church in Rome itself, and the Vatican looks to the 49 Russian Orthodox parishes in Italy to join its "Russian Catholic sui juris church," maybe they should demand their own Russian Patriarch of Rome.  He should take his place next to the Romanian Patriarch of Rome:despite the Italian bishops banning married Romanian priests and the Vatican saying nothing, the Romanians in Italy in submission to Rome are outnumbered only by the Romanians the Vatican seeks to have submit to it, who have their own bishop in Rome already.

Now, some may argue that the Patriarchate of Rome (since it abolished its title for the West) has its own "sui juris" nature, which precludes the Greeks, Albanians, Milanese, Romanians, Russians and "Anglo-Catholics" from having their own patriarch of Rome.  But Jerusalem having its own autocephaly (of which "sui juris" status is an imitation) confirmed by Ecumenical Council did not stop the Vatican from reducing it to a mere Latin diocese.  The Melkite Patriarch of Antioch takes the title of Patriarch of Jerusalem and has far, far more followers than the Latin archbishop of Jerusalem, but without "sui juris" status.  The Melkites of Jerusalem and the patriarchate could easily form a "sui juris church," and it would, if the Vatican played by the same rules it demands of others.

And then there is that problem the bishops of the middle east of the "sui juris churches" brought up in their synod at the Vatican, that they are not allowed to act in the West as the Latin "sui juris" is allowed to act in the East, e.g. married priests.

So when the physician in Rome heals itself, and has an Ambrosian, an Italo-Greek, an Italo-Albanian, a Romanian, a Russian and an Anglican Patriarch in Rome like it has multiplied in Antioch (and other patriarchates of the East.  Divide et impera), let the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in submission to it regain at least a "sui juris" status, and has its Latin bishops in the East constrained as the "sui juris" Easterners are in the West and allow the other 22 primates to act as the primate of the number 1, i.e. Latin Roman, and give "sui juris" status to its own Western Uses as it has to the Eastern, as well as to the non-Roman rites in the West-i.e. act as it demands everyone else act-then we can talk about "other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."

I expect that we'll see before that a sui juris Ukrainian Kievan Patriarchate and a sui juris UAOC alongside the UGCC and the Ruthenians.  If the Latin ordinary whose see is in Kiev

(built in Czarist times, btw) doesn't swallow them first.  Who really has jurisdiction over Ukraine according to the Vatican, Abp. Peter Herkulan Malczuk of Kiev, Abp. Mieczysław Mokrzycki of Lviv (who sits here)

(never closed nor taken by the Orthodox or Soviets) or Mjrabp. Sviatoslav Shevchuk?
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2012, 04:48:48 PM »

Hi all. I just want to point out that still no one has answered my question:

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?

(Yes, I know, you don't have to say it: it's Lent and I should work on the virtue of patience, right?)
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,953


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2012, 05:29:02 PM »

Ah, a true Scotsman I see!
...
So when the physician in Rome heals itself,  ... and acts as it demands everyone else act-then we can talk about "other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."

Yes, I do have Scottish ancestry.  But for your "true Scotsman" label to stick I would have had to say "every true Catholic is a fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."  Unfortuantely, I know this to not be true and that there are still those who subscribe to "error has no rights."  St. Thomas Aquinas was wrong about this as other saints have been.  However, for many years now, the Catholic Church has accepted the right of freedom of worship and conscience.
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2012, 10:10:54 PM »

Ah, a true Scotsman I see!
...
So when the physician in Rome heals itself,  ... and acts as it demands everyone else act-then we can talk about "other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."

Yes, I do have Scottish ancestry.  But for your "true Scotsman" label to stick I would have had to say "every true Catholic is a fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."  Unfortuantely, I know this to not be true and that there are still those who subscribe to "error has no rights."  St. Thomas Aquinas was wrong about this as other saints have been.  However, for many years now, the Catholic Church has accepted the right of freedom of worship and conscience.
That's not the story I'm hearing from Latin America, nor Poland.  Croatia, need I say more?

Western Ukraine would require it's own thread.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Deacon Lance
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,953


Liturgy at Mt. St. Macrina Pilgrimage


« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2012, 01:14:12 PM »

I guess you heard wrong:

Argentina
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148731.htm
Brazil
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148738.htm
Poland
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148971.htm
Croatia
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148924.htm

On the otherhand, I guess you don't here the stories from Belarus, Serbia, or Russia:
 
Belarus
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148914.htm
Serbia
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148980.htm
Russia
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148977.htm
Logged

My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,963



« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2012, 03:53:45 PM »

I worked in DC.  What makes you think I should take it at its word, particularly when it contradicts things I know personally as a fact, and others I know on good authority?

One of my favorite examples is the "Catholic Conference of Bishops" opposing Fujimori, one of their flock, in the election against the agnostic and incestuous Llosa, because the Protestants largely supported Fujimori.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,150



« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2012, 12:41:33 PM »

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?

This morning I got to thinking about this, and about today being the last Sunday before Palm Sunday. As unbelievable as it is that no one has answered my question yet, I really don't want to keep wondering, on and on till Eastern or beyond, whether anyone is going to. So I'm going to withdraw the question. Frankly, I still do feel that I should have a right to know which of my "words in this very thread" it was, but possibly I'm just revealing my ignorance of Orthodox ethics.
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
serb1389
Lord, remember me when you come into your Kingdom!
Global Moderator
Merarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco
Posts: 8,404


Michał Kalina's biggest fan

FrNPantic
WWW
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2012, 05:11:57 PM »

Just a friendly reminder for everyone to be careful about entering into Politics with these things, and also to try to stick to the OP, otherwise this thread will be moved.   police
Logged

I got nothing.
I forgot the maps
March 27th and May 30th 2010 were my Ordination dates, please forgive everything before that
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.181 seconds with 64 queries.