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Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill (MP) - Meeting with the Pope is Not Yet Possible  (Read 4297 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 31, 2012, 10:31:11 AM »

30 January 2012, 13:27

Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

"However, the Catholic Church was not very enthusiastic about our offer," he said..."


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9020
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2012, 11:15:36 AM »

30 January 2012, 13:27

Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

"However, the Catholic Church was not very enthusiastic about our offer," he said..."


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9020


Here is the sticking point and it is one that those of us who either personally, or through our family narratives, were involved in property disputes here in North America can understand:


"Speaking about the seizure of Orthodox churches in Ukraine by Greek Catholics, the Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church."

To those who retained their Greek Catholic faith during the periods of state enforced persecution, the property transfers in western Ukraine are not 'seizures' but legitimate 'recoveries.' For example, the Greek Catholic Cathedrals in Uzhorod and Muchachevo were both built in the post-Unia era in the 18th and 19th centuries, so to the Greek Catholics they were unlawfully 'seized' as a result of state actions in 1947.

To those who legitimately professed Orthodoxy both prior to and following 1947, their views on the subject are obviously different and need to be respected by the Greek Catholic community as well before any meaningful progress can be achieved.

As to those who sit in places like Moscow, Athens or in comfortable places in the west who abstractly pine about the historical wrongs caused by the unia in the first instance, I can only say that it is far easier to pontificate on a subject than to understand it from first hand experience.

Keep in mind also that for eastern Europe, all of this is recent history as only twenty years have passed. When I was a kid in the 1960's, some twenty years following the end of the period of litigation and church building following the second schism in the American Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, my church friends would literally 'cross the street' rather than pass in front of the newly constructed BCC church next door. Their children would 'hold their breath and look the other way' when passing St. Michael's. This pattern was repeated across the Northeast and Midwestern United States in countless cities, towns and hamlets where churches were split during that time period.

Today our peoples and our leaders remain separated by faith and most are comfortable with the choices that fate presented us, but we no longer have the 'hatred' and passion that existed years ago. Most of us have learned to cherish that which we possess in common and to try to understand those things which keep us apart. It is a tough road, but not an impossible one to follow.

To expect the Ukrainians and the Russians to 'kiss and make up' only twenty years after the collapse of the USSR and the restoration of the Greek Catholic church is unrealistic - for both sides. Of course the Ukrainian problems are compounded by the fractures within the Orthodox communities in Ukraine and the relationships, and lack thereof, which the Ukrainian Greek Catholics are developing with some of the Orthodox on purely nationalistic grounds.

I would only ask those who are far removed from that situation, as well as the parallel ones in Slovakia and Romania to not be quick to judge our brothers and sisters as none of you have walked the proverbial mile in their shoes - either Orthodox or Greek Catholic ones for that matter.

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 11:25:05 AM »

30 January 2012, 13:27

Patriarch pointed out that the Russian Church has recently suggested reviving the four-party commission comprising the Vatican, the Moscow Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

"However, the Catholic Church was not very enthusiastic about our offer," he said..."


http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=9020

$5 says Zenit posts an article saying the MP wants to join the UGCC.  Roll Eyes Wink Cheesy

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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 11:34:56 AM »

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/

“But in this whole controversy the Moscow Patriarchate stubbornly does not want to notice one very important detail. Speaking of “the defeat of three Orthodox dioceses” conceals the true statistics of Orthodoxy in Galicia. And they are really impressive. Here is the number of Orthodox parishes: in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast there are about 462 parishes (34 UOC-MP, 279 UOC-KP, 149 UAOC), in Lviv Oblast, respectively, 912 (69 UOC-MP, 460 UOC-KP, 383 UAOC) in Ternopil Oblast 663 parishes (125 UOC-MP, 227 UOC-KP, 261 UAOC). For comparison, take the Donetsk Oblast (one of the largest in Ukraine), which has 757 Orthodox communities, or Zhytomyr with 848 parishes and finally Odessa with 684 Orthodox parishes. With so many parishes can there be talk about the defeat of Orthodoxy in Galicia? Statistics show that such centers of “canonical Orthodoxy” as Donetsk or Odesa do not exceed the number of communities “defeated” in the Lviv Oblast, where there are 912 communities.”
13 September 2011
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 11:42:23 AM »

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/open_theme/44340/

“But in this whole controversy the Moscow Patriarchate stubbornly does not want to notice one very important detail. Speaking of “the defeat of three Orthodox dioceses” conceals the true statistics of Orthodoxy in Galicia. And they are really impressive. Here is the number of Orthodox parishes: in Ivano-Frankivsk Oblast there are about 462 parishes (34 UOC-MP, 279 UOC-KP, 149 UAOC), in Lviv Oblast, respectively, 912 (69 UOC-MP, 460 UOC-KP, 383 UAOC) in Ternopil Oblast 663 parishes (125 UOC-MP, 227 UOC-KP, 261 UAOC). For comparison, take the Donetsk Oblast (one of the largest in Ukraine), which has 757 Orthodox communities, or Zhytomyr with 848 parishes and finally Odessa with 684 Orthodox parishes. With so many parishes can there be talk about the defeat of Orthodoxy in Galicia? Statistics show that such centers of “canonical Orthodoxy” as Donetsk or Odesa do not exceed the number of communities “defeated” in the Lviv Oblast, where there are 912 communities.”
13 September 2011

I agree.

I had the privilege of getting to know Fr. Dymytry Sydor of the UOC-MP and rector of the Holy Cross Cathedral in Uzhorod when he summered in the US some years ago. There is no question that for many in western Ukraine, the same issues of Latinizing and fealty to Rome drove many to Orthodoxy during the 20th century.

Unfortunately, the problems in western Ukraine are so wrapped up with ethnic politics and 'byzantine' political alliances that it is tough for us Americans to really have a feel for the truth.

Fr. Sydor was able to erect a massive cathedral in the city and it is filled with the faithful. He is not a Ukrainian nationalist, but rather a devotee of Duchnovych and the Rusyn identity movement and for that reason, he and the Rusyn community have allied themselves with the MP. (They face the same problem faced by Bishop Milan Sasic and the Eparchy of Muchachevo within the Greek Catholic church in trying to stake out an autonomous identity in Transcarpathia - a region home to a vast multitude of competing cultures - dating back to centuries of Hungarian rule.)
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 04:29:53 PM »

 Shocked

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

How much distance do you have in mind?
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 10:37:29 AM »

Shocked

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

How much distance do you have in mind?

Enough to keep them from poaching Orthodox Christians. Yes,I am offended by Protestants who rally their faithful to evangelize in Eastern Europe with the charge being that they will bring Christianity there. They are just as ridiculous as the Blue Legionaries in the Roman Church. Now I know full well that there are plenty of non-believers or superficial 'believers' in east Europe.

However, as an Orthodox Christian, it is not unreasonable to pray that the Orthodox churches there see the light in terms of settling their internal battles and get past their reluctance to use the vernacular. Many of us believe that the MP's reluctance to do so is that the vernacular across the regions of the former Russian Tsarist empire is not limited to Russian and that translations and use of local languages in nations now independent (Belarus and Ukraine come to mind...also Moldava) would lead to a diminution of her influence.

Not so much a 'slam' on non-Orthodox, but a fervent wish for the Orthodox to do better.
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 10:52:03 AM »

You really have no idea how offensive that is, do you?

Shocked

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

How much distance do you have in mind?

Enough to keep them from poaching Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 11:29:33 AM »

You really have no idea how offensive that is, do you?

Shocked

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

How much distance do you have in mind?

Enough to keep them from poaching Orthodox Christians.

You really have no idea how offensive such missionaries and uninformed Protestant attitudes about Orthodoxy are to those of us with family in those lands.  I am not talking about you, but ask an Orthodox priest or two trying to establish a mission for Orthodox families in the American Bible Belt about dealing with those attitudes.
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 11:43:52 AM »

Many of us believe that the MP's reluctance to do so is that the vernacular across the regions of the former Russian Tsarist empire is not limited to Russian and that translations and use of local languages in nations now independent (Belarus and Ukraine come to mind...also Moldava) would lead to a diminution of her influence.

There are a few Belarusian- and Ukrainian-language parishes.
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 11:56:33 AM »

You really have no idea how offensive that is, do you?

Shocked

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

How much distance do you have in mind?

Enough to keep them from poaching Orthodox Christians.

You really have no idea how offensive such missionaries and uninformed Protestant attitudes about Orthodoxy are to those of us with family in those lands.  I am not talking about you, but ask an Orthodox priest or two trying to establish a mission for Orthodox families in the American Bible Belt about dealing with those attitudes.
I remember during my missionary work in Russia, Hungary, Romania, and Czech Republic we were outright told that the Orthodox and Catholics were in no way Christian. We were never to even refer to them as Christian. This is far more widespread and taught than many here in the US would like to admit, especially in more fundamentalist areas.

I remember asking a question about a Catholic belief in one of our "boot camp" training sessions and I was told to grab a tract by Jack Chick, "because he knows what he's talking about" if that says anything.


PP
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 11:57:32 AM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 12:00:24 PM »

I remember asking a question about a Catholic belief in one of our "boot camp" training sessions and I was told to grab a tract by Jack Chick, "because he knows what he's talking about" if that says anything.

It looks me like some Orthodox and Catholics do a pretty good job of mirroring Chick's attitudes (if that says anything).
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 12:11:50 PM »

I remember asking a question about a Catholic belief in one of our "boot camp" training sessions and I was told to grab a tract by Jack Chick, "because he knows what he's talking about" if that says anything.

It looks me like some Orthodox and Catholics do a pretty good job of mirroring Chick's attitudes (if that says anything).
That is also true, unfortunately.

PP
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 12:16:10 PM »

Maybe I should start praying for Catholics and Orthodox (or "Papists" and "Easterners") to be kept at a distance from America, because some of them have done bad things.
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 12:22:49 PM »

My apologies for going off-topic. Some things are hard not to respond to.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 12:49:29 PM »

My apologies for going off-topic. Some things are hard not to respond to.

You guys are just proving my point.

Come on, some other Orthodox - come on in - especially clergy - and put this in context. It seems as if some of you have a double standard when it comes to Protestantism - it's ok to bash the Catholics but Protestant offense and ignorance is excusable in context? Give me a break - too bad if the truth hurts. Thanks pp for watching my back.
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 01:02:13 PM »

Peter J seems to be laboring under the assumption (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church. 

They're not.

Catholics "get a pass" because of their historical presence in those areas. 
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 01:13:35 PM »

Peter J seems to be laboring under the assumption (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church. 

Who am I to tell you that you're wrong? I'll just make a note that I've been making that assumption, since I hadn't the slightest idea I was doing that. Anything else you can tell me about myself? Am I really a Baptist? A Mormon? You have to help me, because I don't know myself very well. Also, if you could show me evidence that I've been assuming that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church, that might make it easier for me to remember it (in case I lose my note).
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 01:13:43 PM »

Peter J seems to be laboring under the assumption (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church. 

They're not.

Catholics "get a pass" because of their historical presence in those areas. 

We are really off topic here, but I digress. My ancestors lived under the rule of the Hapsburgs. In the cities,  and even into the smaller towns and villages of that empire, it was not uncommon for one to have an Eastern Catholic (formerly Orthodox) presence, a Roman Catholic one and a Lutheran one. Some even had a Presbyterian or two (the Hussites) sprinkled in the mix for good measure. For the most part they lived together, kept their distance and kept the peace. At least from the mid 18th century to the present these peoples didn't generally assert that the others weren't Christian or were in need of 'conversion'. (I am speaking broadly - not about the Orthodox/EC divide here, so please hear me out....)

I, and others, are talking about the influx of modern American evangelical Protestants who view us (as pp said) as NOT being Christian. Dealing with that charge since the first Orthodox immigrants came to these shores has been one of the great burdens placed upon the shoulders of Orthodox believers on the North American continent.

I am not painting with a broad brush of attack, if I appeared to do so, I apologize. Even the greatest  American Baptist figure of the 20th century, the Rev. Billy Graham, was ultimately scandalized by those who went to evangelize in east Europe who lacked any respect for, of appreciation for, the lasting strength of Eastern Christianity. http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0643_Billy_Graham_in_USSR.html  Graham took much heat from the Jack Chicks of this planet, but he never wavered from what he said of the Orthodox after he opened his own heart and mind to the truth.

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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 01:28:35 PM »

Quote
am not painting with a broad brush of attack, if I appeared to do so, I apologize. Even the greatest  American Baptist figure of the 20th century, the Rev. Billy Graham, was ultimately scandalized by those who went to evangelize in east Europe who lacked any respect for, of appreciation for, the lasting strength of Eastern Christianity. http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0643_Billy_Graham_in_USSR.html  Graham took much heat from the Jack Chicks of this planet, but he never wavered from what he said of the Orthodox after he opened his own heart and mind to the truth
Although I disagree with the good Reverend on many things, I know this is fact. Many times during his crusades, when people would come forward, he would task these people to speak with a clergyman of their tradition if able and willing (RC's to a RC priest, and so forth). I think that is one reason why he is respected as he is across many traditions (and even across religions).

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« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »

Peter J seems to be laboring under the assumption (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church.  

Who am I to tell you that you're wrong? I'll just make a note that I've been making that assumption, since I hadn't the slightest idea I was doing that. Anything else you can tell me about myself? Am I really a Baptist? A Mormon? You have to help me, because I don't know myself very well. Also, if you could show me evidence that I've been assuming that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church, that might make it easier for me to remember it (in case I lose my note).

Why are you being so defensive?  I outright said that I was making an assumption (e.g. "seems to be...") and asked to be corrected.

As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread.  Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church.

The Orthodox simply do not think so and it is an insult them for people to come to "Christianize" them when they've been Christians for over 1000 years.  Those who are presently unchurched are the victims of godless communism.  Slipping in with an individualist salvation mindset is poaching.  If you're shocked that the Orthodox don't want people spreading lies about Christ among their flock, you have your head in the sand re: the real world.
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« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 02:33:53 PM »

If I may recommend, especially to Peter J., but also to the rest of you who are in this latest conversation, that I do not really see this topic being reigned in at any point...soon.  So, if you would like to continue this conversation in any of the myriad of threads which exist EXACTLY for this type of conversation, please find them & link to them, so you can have your conversations there.  

It would definitely behoove us to stay to the topic of the Original Post, if at all possible.  Digression is OK for a little bit, but this one seems like it's going to go further than most.   police
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« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 02:37:29 PM »

 Huh You guys know that Billy Graham is generally included in "Protestants" right?

Regardless, I think I'm going to stop posting for now. I'm not too good in this sort of conversation. First we're told that Orthodox should pray that "Protestants are kept at a distance"; then when I object to that it is concluded that I "[believe] Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church"! I just don't how to avoid making things worse (possibly earning myself a 99 day Muting to boot) other than to just tell everyone to "talk the hand".

Bye.
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« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 02:53:00 PM »

Huh You guys know that Billy Graham is generally included in "Protestants" right?

Regardless, I think I'm going to stop posting for now. I'm not too good in this sort of conversation. First we're told that Orthodox should pray that "Protestants are kept at a distance"; then when I object to that it is concluded that I "[believe] Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church"! I just don't how to avoid making things worse (possibly earning myself a 99 day Muting to boot) other than to just tell everyone to "talk the hand".

Bye.

And unlike many of our sincere Orthodox brothers and sisters who post here regularly, I suspect that Schultz and I are in the minority here who would never view Rev. Billy Graham as not being a Christian and among those who sincerely believe, and hope, that pious Godly men and women like the aforesaid Rev. Billy Graham will likely enter into His Kingdom on that dread Day of Final Judgment. Don't go away in a snit, but pick your fights more carefully.
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« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2012, 02:58:10 PM »

Huh You guys know that Billy Graham is generally included in "Protestants" right?

Regardless, I think I'm going to stop posting for now. I'm not too good in this sort of conversation. First we're told that Orthodox should pray that "Protestants are kept at a distance"; then when I object to that it is concluded that I "[believe] Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church"! I just don't how to avoid making things worse (possibly earning myself a 99 day Muting to boot) other than to just tell everyone to "talk the hand".

Bye.

And unlike many of our sincere Orthodox brothers and sisters who post here regularly, I suspect that Schultz and I are in the minority here who would never view Rev. Billy Graham as not being a Christian and among those who sincerely believe, and hope, that pious Godly men and women like the aforesaid Rev. Billy Graham will likely enter into His Kingdom on that dread Day of Final Judgment. Don't go away in a snit, but pick your fights more carefully.

Agreed on all counts. 

Also, Rev. Billy Graham did not go into Orthodox lands and tell pious Christians that they were never Christians.

The use of the term "Protestant" on here was general, at first, and then narrowed down in posts by pp and podkarpatska. 
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« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2012, 03:08:40 PM »

Quote
And unlike many of our sincere Orthodox brothers and sisters who post here regularly, I suspect that Schultz and I are in the minority here who would never view Rev. Billy Graham as not being a Christian and among those who sincerely believe, and hope, that pious Godly men and women like the aforesaid Rev. Billy Graham will likely enter into His Kingdom on that dread Day of Final Judgment. Don't go away in a snit, but pick your fights more carefully
QFT. I would never call Rev. Graham a non-Christian.

Quote
Also, Rev. Billy Graham did not go into Orthodox lands and tell pious Christians that they were never Christians
Very true.

Quote
The use of the term "Protestant" on here was general, at first, and then narrowed down in posts by pp and podkarpatska
If it was seen that I was smearing Rev. Graham, Im sorry. Didn't mean to do that. I was simply explaining my experiences, which were first hand.

PP
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« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2012, 11:18:07 PM »

Huh You guys know that Billy Graham is generally included in "Protestants" right?

Regardless, I think I'm going to stop posting for now. I'm not too good in this sort of conversation. First we're told that Orthodox should pray that "Protestants are kept at a distance"; then when I object to that it is concluded that I "[believe] Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church"! I just don't how to avoid making things worse (possibly earning myself a 99 day Muting to boot) other than to just tell everyone to "talk the hand".

Bye.

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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2012, 02:34:21 PM »

Peter J seems to be laboring under the assumption (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church.  

Who am I to tell you that you're wrong? I'll just make a note that I've been making that assumption, since I hadn't the slightest idea I was doing that. Anything else you can tell me about myself? Am I really a Baptist? A Mormon? You have to help me, because I don't know myself very well. Also, if you could show me evidence that I've been assuming that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church, that might make it easier for me to remember it (in case I lose my note).

Why are you being so defensive?  I outright said that I was making an assumption (e.g. "seems to be...") and asked to be corrected.

As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread.  Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church.

The Orthodox simply do not think so and it is an insult them for people to come to "Christianize" them when they've been Christians for over 1000 years.  Those who are presently unchurched are the victims of godless communism.  Slipping in with an individualist salvation mindset is poaching.  If you're shocked that the Orthodox don't want people spreading lies about Christ among their flock, you have your head in the sand re: the real world.

I do not think that is an insult but it certainly is an arrogant and misguided approach. Besides, one is a Christian on his own and not by being part of a nation, race or ethnic group. It certainly is not inherited. We would do better to evangelize and catechize "our own people" than to bemoan others doing so. In any case, the threat of heterodox "poaching" should be viewed as a challenge; it would be a sign of impotence to try to ban it or to condemn it. If we are the True Faith (and I believe this with without any reservation), we would welcome the competition and strive to convert the heterodox missionaries!
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 06:35:27 PM »

Peter J seems to be laboring under the assumption (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church.  

Who am I to tell you that you're wrong? I'll just make a note that I've been making that assumption, since I hadn't the slightest idea I was doing that. Anything else you can tell me about myself? Am I really a Baptist? A Mormon? You have to help me, because I don't know myself very well. Also, if you could show me evidence that I've been assuming that Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church, that might make it easier for me to remember it (in case I lose my note).

Why are you being so defensive?  I outright said that I was making an assumption (e.g. "seems to be...") and asked to be corrected.

As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread.  Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church.

The Orthodox simply do not think so and it is an insult them for people to come to "Christianize" them when they've been Christians for over 1000 years.  Those who are presently unchurched are the victims of godless communism.  Slipping in with an individualist salvation mindset is poaching.  If you're shocked that the Orthodox don't want people spreading lies about Christ among their flock, you have your head in the sand re: the real world.

I do not think that is an insult but it certainly is an arrogant and misguided approach. Besides, one is a Christian on his own and not by being part of a nation, race or ethnic group. It certainly is not inherited. We would do better to evangelize and catechize "our own people" than to bemoan others doing so. In any case, the threat of heterodox "poaching" should be viewed as a challenge; it would be a sign of impotence to try to ban it or to condemn it. If we are the True Faith (and I believe this with without any reservation), we would welcome the competition and strive to convert the heterodox missionaries!

I've always thought about doing this.  I managed to deter a group of evangelical protestants (not sure what denomenation) from doing a rendition of interpretive dance in Pireus, Greece.  Thank God I did b/c the Greek equivalent of a SWAT team & anti-protest gear came to that location like 20 minutes after they were scheduled to perform. 

The people & I got into a very lengthy conversation & I was able to point them to a church where the priest spoke very good english. 
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« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 08:43:24 PM »

Huh You guys know that Billy Graham is generally included in "Protestants" right?

Regardless, I think I'm going to stop posting for now. I'm not too good in this sort of conversation. First we're told that Orthodox should pray that "Protestants are kept at a distance"; then when I object to that it is concluded that I "[believe] Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church"! I just don't how to avoid making things worse (possibly earning myself a 99 day Muting to boot) other than to just tell everyone to "talk the hand".

Bye.

And unlike many of our sincere Orthodox brothers and sisters who post here regularly, I suspect that Schultz and I are in the minority here who would never view Rev. Billy Graham as not being a Christian and among those who sincerely believe, and hope, that pious Godly men and women like the aforesaid Rev. Billy Graham will likely enter into His Kingdom on that dread Day of Final Judgment. Don't go away in a snit, but pick your fights more carefully.

Agreed on all counts. 

Also, Rev. Billy Graham did not go into Orthodox lands and tell pious Christians that they were never Christians.

The use of the term "Protestant" on here was general, at first, and then narrowed down in posts by pp and podkarpatska. 

Agree.  I consider Protestants to be Christians, but in error.  Same with the RC.  I don't want them preaching in Orthodox lands any more than I want incompetent mechanics in my power plant.
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« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 11:06:49 PM »

You really have no idea how offensive that is, do you?

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Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

How much distance do you have in mind?

Enough to keep them from poaching Orthodox Christians.
Poaching Orthodox Christians is very offensive, to man and God.
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2012, 09:24:42 AM »

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?
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« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2012, 11:25:52 AM »

What I think is interesting in this discussion is that since 1991 and the fall of communism the Orthodox Church has expanded rapidly.  Inspite of all the money the American Evangelicals are spending on missions to the area they are not successful.  To me that is significant.  I don't think that Evangelical Protestant missions are a real threat to Orthodox Christians.
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« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2012, 09:19:32 AM »

Quote
What I think is interesting in this discussion is that since 1991 and the fall of communism the Orthodox Church has expanded rapidly.  Inspite of all the money the American Evangelicals are spending on missions to the area they are not successful
I have to disagree on this. I went to eastern Europe as one of these Evangelical proseletyzers. We unfortunately, were tremendously successful.

Quote
I don't think that Evangelical Protestant missions are a real threat to Orthodox Christians.
There are many here that would also disagree with that statement.

PP
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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2012, 11:51:33 AM »

Quote
What I think is interesting in this discussion is that since 1991 and the fall of communism the Orthodox Church has expanded rapidly.  Inspite of all the money the American Evangelicals are spending on missions to the area they are not successful
I have to disagree on this. I went to eastern Europe as one of these Evangelical proseletyzers. We unfortunately, were tremendously successful.

Quote
I don't think that Evangelical Protestant missions are a real threat to Orthodox Christians.
There are many here that would also disagree with that statement.

PP

I am looking for some recent statistics.  If anyone else has the statistics handy please post them.  From what I read the Evangelicals made some initial progress and then in the last 5 years or so actually declined in numbers as the Orthodox numbers increased.
What information are you basing your comments on primuspilus?  Recent numbers or from 10/ 20 years ago?
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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2012, 12:41:41 PM »

Quote
What I think is interesting in this discussion is that since 1991 and the fall of communism the Orthodox Church has expanded rapidly.  Inspite of all the money the American Evangelicals are spending on missions to the area they are not successful
I have to disagree on this. I went to eastern Europe as one of these Evangelical proseletyzers. We unfortunately, were tremendously successful.

Quote
I don't think that Evangelical Protestant missions are a real threat to Orthodox Christians.
There are many here that would also disagree with that statement.

PP

I am looking for some recent statistics.  If anyone else has the statistics handy please post them.  From what I read the Evangelicals made some initial progress and then in the last 5 years or so actually declined in numbers as the Orthodox numbers increased.
What information are you basing your comments on primuspilus?  Recent numbers or from 10/ 20 years ago?
Some by personal experience. However, its not hard to see. I'll give an example:

In Russia, there are over 4,000 organizations that were registered that belonged to a protestant group. Second in the country only to Orthodoxy. This number is outpacing all others (including Orthodoxy) in rate of growth (2004 census). Also in former Soviet union areas, at the fall of the Union, there were 2,000,000 Baptists. There are now over 5,000,000. Mostly in Ukraine. That means, since the fall of the Union, the number of just Baptists has more than doubled. That is not including the non-Christian faiths that have also seen big inroads.

Its very alluring to folks who can be a Christian and not have to "do" anything except pray a prayer and really mean it. We had hundreds every time we preached on the corners in Moscow. Its a big problem for Orthodoxy over there.

PP
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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2012, 05:55:24 PM »

Its very alluring to folks who can be a Christian and not have to "do" anything except pray a prayer and really mean it. We had hundreds every time we preached on the corners in Moscow. Its a big problem for Orthodoxy over there.

I agree with you that Protestantism is huge here.  I might even say it is the most practiced religion in Ukraine.  Real numbers are all but impossible to obtain since it is a very unofficial sort of thing.   

I disagree about not having to do anything.  Most of the local Protestants whom I have met are deeply sincere and practicing Christians.  The Orthodox Church offers no outreach to them, is hopelessly corrupt and irrelevant.  The Bible and prayer life isn't encouraged among the Orthodox.  Instead you can stand for a few hours a week at service which you don't really understand.  OTOH, the Protestants offer a vernacular Russian (and Ukrainian!) bible, fellowship and meaningful worship.   
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« Reply #38 on: February 29, 2012, 10:29:08 AM »

From my visits to Ukraine and from contact with my relatives I do not see that Evangelicals are "huge" in Ukraine.  Their parishes are very small in comparison to regular Orthodox parishes.  Some young people are initially attracted because of the opportunity to learn English or just to have some "contact" with the United States, but that wears off quickly.  What I have heard in feedback is that Protestant preaching and teaching is viewed as "simplistic" without spiritual depth.  You have to remember that most people in Ukraine are well educated like to discuss literature, art and politics.  I am looking for recent statistics, but again I have not seen any statistics that back up any stattements that protestantism is "huge" in Ukriane or Russia.  Also I have travelled to Romania too and I can say the same thing about Romania.
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« Reply #39 on: February 29, 2012, 11:26:13 AM »

Its very alluring to folks who can be a Christian and not have to "do" anything except pray a prayer and really mean it. We had hundreds every time we preached on the corners in Moscow. Its a big problem for Orthodoxy over there.

I agree with you that Protestantism is huge here.  I might even say it is the most practiced religion in Ukraine.  Real numbers are all but impossible to obtain since it is a very unofficial sort of thing.   

I disagree about not having to do anything.  Most of the local Protestants whom I have met are deeply sincere and practicing Christians.  The Orthodox Church offers no outreach to them, is hopelessly corrupt and irrelevant.  The Bible and prayer life isn't encouraged among the Orthodox.  Instead you can stand for a few hours a week at service which you don't really understand.  OTOH, the Protestants offer a vernacular Russian (and Ukrainian!) bible, fellowship and meaningful worship.   
I understand your disagreement. What I mean is that alot of the missionary groups that go over there are of the "magical prayer" type. Like we were. I do think though that the Church can learn a thing or two by watching how the Protestants offer everything in the native language and make sure, at least, that the folks they're talking to understand.

PP
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« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2012, 11:47:09 AM »

Protestantism is a serious problem in Ukraine, but quite a lot of practising Orthodox people I have met, used to be in such Protestant groups and finally became practising Orthodox.
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« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2012, 06:13:16 PM »

From my visits to Ukraine and from contact with my relatives I do not see that Evangelicals are "huge" in Ukraine.  Their parishes are very small in comparison to regular Orthodox parishes.  Some young people are initially attracted because of the opportunity to learn English or just to have some "contact" with the United States, but that wears off quickly.  What I have heard in feedback is that Protestant preaching and teaching is viewed as "simplistic" without spiritual depth.  You have to remember that most people in Ukraine are well educated like to discuss literature, art and politics.  I am looking for recent statistics, but again I have not seen any statistics that back up any stattements that protestantism is "huge" in Ukriane or Russia.  Also I have travelled to Romania too and I can say the same thing about Romania.

I'm not really talking about amero-centric organizations.  There are two protestant smallish protestant congregations within about 300 meters of my apartment.  There is a huge mega church type thing five minutes from my house.  The nearest Orthodox church is a ten minute walk and there are two more within a 45 minute walk (and far more than two protestant congregations in the radius).  Not a scientific survey of course, but it shows you can't just dismiss protestantism in Ukraine. 
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« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2012, 08:04:20 PM »

We should be worried about Orthodoxy in our own country.  Most of the parishes here in my area, and there are many... they're on life support.  They have a very small congregation and slim chances of existing in the next ten years.  Some priests handle three churches b/c they are so small.
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« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2012, 07:40:18 AM »

While I was out and about I realized I missed a couple.  

So in a ten minute walk from my house:
1 protestant mega church type thing that is huge
3 moderately sized protestant congregations
1 smallish protestant congregation

1 Orthodox parish about the same size as a single moderate protestant one.  

And the demographics are not stacked in favor of the Orthodox either.  80% or so of the people in attendance at Sunday liturgy are over 50.  My impressions of the Protestants seem to be they are younger and more often complete families.  That's why I get frustrated at flippantly dismissing Protestantism in Ukraine.  The above description is pretty typical of the big russophone cities of Ukraine: Kyiv, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Donetsk, Odessa, etc.  Central and Western Ukraine as well as the rural East are a different story altogether.  
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« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2012, 09:19:27 AM »

But life itself is a thing of great beauty, of which only those are capable who have been instructed by it. Mellifluous chants, however, and softly modulated reading, the odor of incense and a blessed, somniferous atmosphere of beauty will wrap in mist the sorrowful image of Christ, will bring lamentation to an end, will cause heads to be downcast, will cause hope to die. For some this enveloping grandeur will be a temporary lullaby, others will recoil from it -- and a great chasm will appear between the Church and real life. The aesthetically-minded custodians of grandeur will preserve that chasm in the name of harmony, rhythm, order and beauty.

The profane, on the other side, will make no attempt to leap across the chasm because they have been left with the pain, the struggle, the bitterness, the ugliness of life. They will cease to believe that with such heavy baggage it is possible -- and necessary -- to approach the Church. And then, within that miserable and godless world, there will arise -- if they have not arisen already -- false Christs and false prophets, sectarian preachers of various kinds and in varying degrees of shallowness and mediocrity -- Baptists, Evangelicals, Adventists, etc. -- who will offer to these hungry people some kind of an elementary reformulation of the truth, some impoverished surrogate for religious life, some small dollop of good will and ranting hysteria. Some will respond to this. They will respond first of all to a basic human concern for their needs. But they will not be able to discern immediately that instead of true and traditional Orthodox Christianity, they are being treated to a questionable, semi-literate hodgepodge of starry-eyed idealism and charlatanism. But the opiate will have its effect. And it will further deepen the chasm between the Church and the world. Protected carefully by the lovers of beauty, protected by a sense of delusion and hatred of the world, the chasm may be there for ages.


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« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2012, 10:55:02 AM »

While I was out and about I realized I missed a couple. 

So in a ten minute walk from my house:
1 protestant mega church type thing that is huge
3 moderately sized protestant congregations
1 smallish protestant congregation

1 Orthodox parish about the same size as a single moderate protestant one.   

And the demographics are not stacked in favor of the Orthodox either.  80% or so of the people in attendance at Sunday liturgy are over 50.  My impressions of the Protestants seem to be they are younger and more often complete families.  That's why I get frustrated at flippantly dismissing Protestantism in Ukraine.  The above description is pretty typical of the big russophone cities of Ukraine: Kyiv, Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, Donetsk, Odessa, etc.  Central and Western Ukraine as well as the rural East are a different story altogether. 
Yeah. I know the problem that I face is that the young have no care about traditional things. Protestant services require nothing and are specifically marketed to get these kids. modern music, casual attire, and less theology more feel-good is really prevalent. It is really an "entertain me" mentality. It is all fluff and show, where substance is considered by how things are presented.

My son is a perfect example. As I have explained before, I allow him to go to a Church on wednesday nights to be with his friends and to be somewhere with them that I know they are being monitored. He gets very upset about it when he can not go, for whatever reason. Now, he thoroughly enjoys the youth thing on that night, and I went to observe what was done. It was games and music and things, with hardly any teaching whatsoever. He also goes with me and my wife to liturgy every sunday. He is a zombie. Pays no attention to anything, does not participate (although he did ask what it was all for, and he did understand it when I explained it to him) and show no interest in Orthodoxy (he does have a surprising amount of thought about God, and I have caught him literally weeping for his friend's soul on one occasion).

The problem, not just with my boy, but our society in general, is that we have been trained to expect entertainment and everything to be wrapped in a fun little box. If its not entertaining, most folks want nothing to do with it. Protestantism, especially what I like to call, "new protestantism" is more of a marketing strategy that can chage its message to fit the group they're talking to.

These kids will eventually become adults, and expect the same thing, and pass it to their kids. So seeing the average age of 50 in a parish does not surprise me at all. I'd actually be surprised if it wasn't.

PP
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« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2012, 03:35:18 PM »

I've seen megachurches in my area that are the size of college campuses. It gets me to think, why don't they just call them cathedrals?  Huh
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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2012, 09:43:49 AM »

I've seen megachurches in my area that are the size of college campuses. It gets me to think, why don't they just call them cathedrals?  Huh

I think some of them do actually. (I could be mistaken, I've never been involved with megachurches.)
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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2012, 11:49:24 AM »

Yeah. I know the problem that I face is that the young have no care about traditional things. Protestant services require nothing and are specifically marketed to get these kids. modern music, casual attire, and less theology more feel-good is really prevalent. It is really an "entertain me" mentality. It is all fluff and show, where substance is considered by how things are presented.

To ascribe less than stellar motives to all Protestants simply doesn't square with reality.  I've met many deeply sincere Protestants and many Orthodox who are in the Church for reasons far more banal than entertainment.
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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2012, 11:59:34 AM »

To ascribe less than stellar motives to all Protestants simply doesn't square with reality. 

I agree that over-generalizing isn't a good idea. Neither is spreading rumors about others, which I guess is why I get a little impatient about the fact that no one has answered my question:

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?
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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2012, 01:09:35 PM »

Yeah. I know the problem that I face is that the young have no care about traditional things. Protestant services require nothing and are specifically marketed to get these kids. modern music, casual attire, and less theology more feel-good is really prevalent. It is really an "entertain me" mentality. It is all fluff and show, where substance is considered by how things are presented.

To ascribe less than stellar motives to all Protestants simply doesn't square with reality.  I've met many deeply sincere Protestants and many Orthodox who are in the Church for reasons far more banal than entertainment.
Im not saying all Protestants have ulterior motives. But what I am saying is that our culture as a whole is very "entertain me" oriented, and many Protestant churches market what they do towards that end to get people in the doors. Their motives are good (most of them anyways) but good or no, they are still playing to what the crowd wants.

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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2012, 05:00:07 PM »

But what I am saying is that our culture as a whole is very "entertain me" oriented, and many Protestant churches market what they do towards that end to get people in the doors. Their motives are good (most of them anyways) but good or no, they are still playing to what the crowd wants

But that is your culture, not my culture. 
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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2012, 05:08:02 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

Why are you offended?  Are you protestant?  How could you be offended if you are not protestant?  Protestantism has spread it's modernism through theology and music into the Catholic Church and it is starting to affect the Orthodox Church, too.  It is like a cancer that is killing Christianity.  I won't say all protestants are like that, especially not Anglicans, but the baptists most certainly are.  They do indeed hate Orthodoxy (I know, I'm a convert) and they attempt to steal away Orthodox youth by inviting them to their rock concert church services.  Be offended, and who cares. 
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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2012, 08:33:37 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

Why are you offended?  Are you protestant? 

Possibly you meant this as a rheotical question, since you can see that my profile says Faith: High Church Catholic (*), but I'll answer it anyhow: no, I'm not Protestant.

How could you be offended if you are not protestant? 

I don't follow your logic. I've never been Orthodox either, yet I'm offended by anti-Orthodox prejudice. Why wouldn't I also be offended by anti-Protestant prejudice?
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« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2012, 02:39:29 AM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
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« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2012, 09:27:00 AM »

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox

I'll try.
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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2012, 12:07:11 PM »

It's too late to edit that last post, but I should have said: I try to be thick-skinned on this forum, while at the same time opposing anti-Catholic prejudice and anti-Protestant prejudice.
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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2012, 02:17:56 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2012, 04:37:44 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

Nonetheless there are still plenty of Catholics in Russia. See the wiki article on Roman Catholics in Russia.  Imagine how furious people here would be if Western countries treated Orthodox clerics in such a manner (denying them visas and otherwise disrupting church life).   
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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2012, 05:02:33 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
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« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2012, 05:20:58 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 
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« Reply #61 on: March 03, 2012, 06:39:01 PM »

See the wiki article on Roman Catholics in Russia. 

I found this a bit surprising:

Quote
A 2004 Ecumenical conference was organized for Russia's "traditional religions" Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism, and therefore excluded Catholicism,[28] despite the fact that the Catholic population in Russia is roughly similar in size to the Buddhists and now larger than the Jews (due to Jewish emigration). Ethnic Russian Catholics still tend to face pressure and stigma for belonging to an "alien" sect.
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« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2012, 11:55:26 AM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 

Good point.  Alsdo the new Orthodox cathedral in Paris is to serve Christians who are already orthodox not to steasl sheep from the catholic Church.
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« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2012, 12:00:14 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 

Good point.  Alsdo the new Orthodox cathedral in Paris is to serve Christians who are already orthodox not to steasl sheep from the catholic Church.

So if a Catholic goes to the parish and wishes to convert they will be turned away?
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« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!
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« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.

There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.  And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.

Actually there is a difference.  The only reason there are Catholics in Siberia is that they were dragged there from occupied territories by Imperial Russian / Soviet authorities against their will.  Whereas Russians have been voluntarily fleeing Russia in droves since the collapse of the USSR. 
Actually not all of them:lots of Latin Poles (not sure about Lithuanians) and Lutheran Finns, Germans and Estonians (I don't know about Latvians) ended up in Russian America, which wasn't a penal colony.  Some ended up in Siberia by there own will.
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« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2012, 07:10:50 PM »

Keep them all in your prayers so that the secularists and Protestants are kept at a distance.

Seriously, people, it's okay for Orthodox and Catholics to be there but not "Protestants" -- so much so that Orthodox pray for them to be "kept at a distance"? I can't be the only person here who is offended by that. Could someone have the guts to say they're offended too?

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here).  Otherwise you'd be offended constantly. 

Orthodox should have unlimited religious freedom in the West.  Paris and Rome ought to have huge Orthodox cathedrals but Catholics shouldn't be allowed to worship freely in Moscow.  At least in my parts the Orthodox Church is mostly old communists... so go figure. 
Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it. 
Sure it does.  The French and Poles occupied it a couple times.
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« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2012, 12:24:26 PM »

It seems to me that Orthodoxy (including uncanonical parishes) is not that small in Kyiv. Though there is quite a big Protestant presence. Also, the Ukrainian language seems to be getting stronger in Kyiv, also as a form of protest against Yanukovich. So it is not really the same as Donetsk.
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« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2012, 04:40:33 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
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« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2012, 05:53:34 PM »

Thank God for the documents, because their actions certainly leave one confused.

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
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« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2012, 06:14:31 PM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.

Let's give him the benefit of the doubt and say that his
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If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
comment was directed at his fellow Orthodox.
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« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2012, 12:03:45 AM »

Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

Says I and any other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates.  And the Anglicans now have two parishes in Rome and 10 in the rest of Italy.
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« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2012, 12:13:12 AM »

You learn to develop a think skin around the Orthodox, many of whom are still centuries behind in their thinking (I suppose why the caveman diet is so popular here). 
Very true.

Those who read in Russian can see for themselves what horrendous hostility and ignorance reign in Russian Orthodox forums - be it towards Catholics, Protestants, Jews, non-Russians, you name it.

I tried to post at a Russian Orthodox forum recently - LOL.  The conversation was about an interview with different girls who participated in Russian beauty contests.  Girls gave informal interviews, they were not wearing makeup and just shared things about their lives.

My post: Wonderful girls!
The next immediate answer to my post: A good girl will not go to a beauty contest.  That's the kind of girls with whom men like to "have fun" but they will not marry them.  And a woman's God-given duty is motherhood!

My reaction: OKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!  Guess I won't be posting HERE very often. :-))))))))))))))))))))))))
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« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2012, 01:32:34 AM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
You know very well that the Vatican did not hold religious freedom in high regard. Or perhaps you didn't. Or don't want to face that?  Havn't you read the Summa Theologica?
Quote
With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3
Or are you saying that your ecclesial community began in 1962?  We know that the disciples of Aquinas in the 19th century embraced the idea of "development of doctrine," but nothing in the documents of Vatican II prevent it from developing back to its Thomist roots.
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« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2012, 01:32:34 AM »

Moscow doesn't have a history of large immigration of Roman Catholics to it.  That is the difference.  The Russian Orthodox Church in Paris is designated for the Russian-speaking immigrants and their families in Paris.
There is no difference.  If you expect religious freedom for yourself you must extend it to others.
Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.

And the Orthodox Churches in France have plenty of French converts.
May they increase! And may the French Orthodox rite of St. Germaine be restored on secure canonical footing and spread!

You know very well that the documents of Vatican II hold religious freedom in high regard.
Thank God for the documents, because their actions certainly leave one confused.
We are not supposed to look at that.  We are supposed to see what we are told.
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« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2012, 07:08:47 PM »

Oh? Says who?  When the Anglicans tried to build a church in the papal states, your supreme pontiff told them that heresy has no rights.
Says I and any other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates.
Ah, a true Scottsman I see!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
That leaves out your Angelic Doctor.
You know very well that the Vatican did not hold religious freedom in high regard. Or perhaps you didn't. Or don't want to face that?  Havn't you read the Summa Theologica?
Quote
With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death. On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but "after the first and second admonition," as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death.
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3
Or are you saying that your ecclesial community began in 1962?  We know that the disciples of Aquinas in the 19th century embraced the idea of "development of doctrine," but nothing in the documents of Vatican II prevent it from developing back to its Thomist roots.
On him your supreme pontiff says
Quote
No true Catholic has ever ventured to call in question the opinion of the Angelic Doctor
http://maritain.nd.edu/jmc/etext/doctoris.htm

Speaking of cherishing the freedom to worship as his conscience dictates
And the Anglicans now have two parishes in Rome and 10 in the rest of Italy.
You will notice that the Vatican had to be defanged in 1870 for that to happen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara#Reaction_and_opposition

How about the Greeks?  If the English can have their pro-cathedral and bishop in the Archdeaconry of Italy and Malta, why not the Greeks who are native to Italy and Malta (both Greek names) having their own bishop?  Indeed, supposedly your supreme pontiffs had that very idea:
Quote
The Italo-Greeks are subject to the jurisdiction of the diocesan bishops; several times, but in vain, they have sought exemption. However, the popes have long wished them to have a titular archbishop, resident in Rome, for the ordination of their priests, and to lend splendour to Divine service. The first of these was Gabriele, titular Archbishop of Mitylene. When Clement XII established the Corsini College, he placed it in charge of a resident bishop or archbishop of the Greek Rite.
Nihil Obstat. October 1, 1910. Remy Lafort, S.T.D., Censor. Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08206a.htm

If the North African Pope St. Victor could introduce Latin into Roman rite after its first century had passed, why couldn't the Italo-Greeks preserve the original Greek, not replaced by Latin until after three centuries?  They had their own school and plenty of monasteries in Rome itself.  They still have (continuously since before the schism of 1054) a monastery at Grottaferrata in Rome, a half hour from Vatican City, why can't they have a bishop there, a bishop, or rather, patriarch of Rome?  What about the Albanians who now make up most of the flock of the "Italo-Greek Catholic Church"?  Can't they have their own bishop of Rome?

Can the Italo-Greek/Albanians go off to Rome and set up their see?  The Ukrainians in submission to the Vatican went off to Kiev, and, despite lacking canonical authority to do so, they did get the Curia to rubber stamp it, and they are trying to erect a patriarch the same way, the canons they supposedly accept be damned.  Why can't the Italo-Greek/Albanians do likewise?

The Vatican had no problem with setting up four patriarchs in Antioch-Latin, Melkite, Syriac and Maronite, only one of which is native to Antioch itself.  Why not a "Greek Catholic" Patriarch of Rome and "Albanian Catholic" Patriarch of Rome?  After all, the official title, given and recognized by the Vatican is "Italian Byzantine-Catholic Church," and did not the Metropolitan of Italy resided at Rome traditionally?

Why does the Milanese rite not have its own "sui juris" status? Before the promulgation of ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM, the 22 "sui juris" were just rites like the Ambrosian: that the Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium lumps all 22 non-Latin "sui juris churches" together while giving them "sui juris" status gives the Milanese (and Mozarabic, Bragan, etc.) the basis for such status under the Code of Canon Law. Or it should. The Milanese had their bishop of Rome (Paul VI) presiding over Vatican II.  Why shouldn't the Milanese rite, which numbers in the millions in Italy-more in fact than ANY of the 22 Eastern "sui juris churches"-have its own Patriarch of Rome, like the Vatican approves the Melkites, Syriacs, Maronites (the distance from Antioch to Mt. Lebanon being comparable to the distance from Rome to the Diocese of Milan, and the distance from Milan to Rome being almost exactly that of Lviv to Kiev)  and (formerly) the Latins/Crusaders (which still have their church in Antioch) all putting their own patriarch on the chair of St. Peter at Antioch? 

Since the Vatican has made the Albanian Use, Belarus Use, Bulgarian Use, Croatian Use, Greek Use, Hungarian Use, Macedonian Use, Melkite Use, Romanian Use, Russian Use, Ruthenian Use, Slovak Use and Ukrainian Use into their own "sui juris churches," what is to prevent the "Anglican Use" from demanding the same?  The Ukrainians seem to think that they can elevate their "sui juris church" into a "patriarchate" with the Vatican, why can't the Anglicans elevate their Use to "sui juris" and translate their bishop to Rome, like the UGCC went from Lviv to Kiev, and have their own Anglican Patriarch of Rome?  After all, the "the Anglicans now have two parishes in Rome and 10 in the rest of Italy." 

The Russian "sui juris church" doesn't even have as much in all of much larger Russia, and yet they demand bishops, and no doubt, imitating their Ukrainian kin, will demand their own Patriarch of Moscow as well.  In fact, as the "Russian Catholic sui juris church" has a church in Rome itself, and the Vatican looks to the 49 Russian Orthodox parishes in Italy to join its "Russian Catholic sui juris church," maybe they should demand their own Russian Patriarch of Rome.  He should take his place next to the Romanian Patriarch of Rome:despite the Italian bishops banning married Romanian priests and the Vatican saying nothing, the Romanians in Italy in submission to Rome are outnumbered only by the Romanians the Vatican seeks to have submit to it, who have their own bishop in Rome already.

Now, some may argue that the Patriarchate of Rome (since it abolished its title for the West) has its own "sui juris" nature, which precludes the Greeks, Albanians, Milanese, Romanians, Russians and "Anglo-Catholics" from having their own patriarch of Rome.  But Jerusalem having its own autocephaly (of which "sui juris" status is an imitation) confirmed by Ecumenical Council did not stop the Vatican from reducing it to a mere Latin diocese.  The Melkite Patriarch of Antioch takes the title of Patriarch of Jerusalem and has far, far more followers than the Latin archbishop of Jerusalem, but without "sui juris" status.  The Melkites of Jerusalem and the patriarchate could easily form a "sui juris church," and it would, if the Vatican played by the same rules it demands of others.

And then there is that problem the bishops of the middle east of the "sui juris churches" brought up in their synod at the Vatican, that they are not allowed to act in the West as the Latin "sui juris" is allowed to act in the East, e.g. married priests.

So when the physician in Rome heals itself, and has an Ambrosian, an Italo-Greek, an Italo-Albanian, a Romanian, a Russian and an Anglican Patriarch in Rome like it has multiplied in Antioch (and other patriarchates of the East.  Divide et impera), let the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in submission to it regain at least a "sui juris" status, and has its Latin bishops in the East constrained as the "sui juris" Easterners are in the West and allow the other 22 primates to act as the primate of the number 1, i.e. Latin Roman, and give "sui juris" status to its own Western Uses as it has to the Eastern, as well as to the non-Roman rites in the West-i.e. act as it demands everyone else act-then we can talk about "other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."

I expect that we'll see before that a sui juris Ukrainian Kievan Patriarchate and a sui juris UAOC alongside the UGCC and the Ruthenians.  If the Latin ordinary whose see is in Kiev

(built in Czarist times, btw) doesn't swallow them first.  Who really has jurisdiction over Ukraine according to the Vatican, Abp. Peter Herkulan Malczuk of Kiev, Abp. Mieczysław Mokrzycki of Lviv (who sits here)

(never closed nor taken by the Orthodox or Soviets) or Mjrabp. Sviatoslav Shevchuk?
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« Reply #76 on: March 16, 2012, 04:48:48 PM »

Hi all. I just want to point out that still no one has answered my question:

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?

(Yes, I know, you don't have to say it: it's Lent and I should work on the virtue of patience, right?)
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« Reply #77 on: March 16, 2012, 05:29:02 PM »

Ah, a true Scotsman I see!
...
So when the physician in Rome heals itself,  ... and acts as it demands everyone else act-then we can talk about "other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."

Yes, I do have Scottish ancestry.  But for your "true Scotsman" label to stick I would have had to say "every true Catholic is a fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."  Unfortuantely, I know this to not be true and that there are still those who subscribe to "error has no rights."  St. Thomas Aquinas was wrong about this as other saints have been.  However, for many years now, the Catholic Church has accepted the right of freedom of worship and conscience.
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« Reply #78 on: March 16, 2012, 10:10:54 PM »

Ah, a true Scotsman I see!
...
So when the physician in Rome heals itself,  ... and acts as it demands everyone else act-then we can talk about "other fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."

Yes, I do have Scottish ancestry.  But for your "true Scotsman" label to stick I would have had to say "every true Catholic is a fair-mided person who cherishes his freedom to worship as his conscience dictates."  Unfortuantely, I know this to not be true and that there are still those who subscribe to "error has no rights."  St. Thomas Aquinas was wrong about this as other saints have been.  However, for many years now, the Catholic Church has accepted the right of freedom of worship and conscience.
That's not the story I'm hearing from Latin America, nor Poland.  Croatia, need I say more?

Western Ukraine would require it's own thread.
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« Reply #79 on: March 17, 2012, 01:14:12 PM »

I guess you heard wrong:

Argentina
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148731.htm
Brazil
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148738.htm
Poland
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148971.htm
Croatia
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148924.htm

On the otherhand, I guess you don't here the stories from Belarus, Serbia, or Russia:
 
Belarus
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148914.htm
Serbia
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148980.htm
Russia
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2010/148977.htm
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« Reply #80 on: March 17, 2012, 03:53:45 PM »

I worked in DC.  What makes you think I should take it at its word, particularly when it contradicts things I know personally as a fact, and others I know on good authority?

One of my favorite examples is the "Catholic Conference of Bishops" opposing Fujimori, one of their flock, in the election against the agnostic and incestuous Llosa, because the Protestants largely supported Fujimori.
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« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2012, 12:41:33 PM »

Dear Schultz,

With regard to whether I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church" you said, "As for how I came to this,  your words in this very thread." But you haven't said which words. "Only someone who labors under the impression that the Orthodox and the Protestant missionaries, many of whom, as podkarpatska noted, view the Orthodox as NOT being Christian, are of the same "invisible" church." which I admit I don't understand.

I would really like to know what I said that gave you the idea that I think that "Protestants and Orthodox are part of the same church".

(Later you said that I "still haven't actually corrected anything", but I don't see how I can defend myself when you haven't shown me the evidence against me.)

When I posted this ^^ before my intention, naturally, was for Schultz to tell me which of my "words in this very thread" it was; but come think of it, if anyone could tell me it would be greatly appreciated (I've been waiting more than 2 weeks already). Maybe you can count it as a good deed for Great Lent?

This morning I got to thinking about this, and about today being the last Sunday before Palm Sunday. As unbelievable as it is that no one has answered my question yet, I really don't want to keep wondering, on and on till Eastern or beyond, whether anyone is going to. So I'm going to withdraw the question. Frankly, I still do feel that I should have a right to know which of my "words in this very thread" it was, but possibly I'm just revealing my ignorance of Orthodox ethics.
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« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2012, 05:11:57 PM »

Just a friendly reminder for everyone to be careful about entering into Politics with these things, and also to try to stick to the OP, otherwise this thread will be moved.   police
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