OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 03:06:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: For Catholics: Souls in Purgatory assured of salvation?  (Read 5160 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Kaste
Site Supporter
Sr. Member
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: member of the Invisible Church
Posts: 158


« on: January 30, 2012, 12:28:09 AM »

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  Pretty much like Purgatory without fire. 

But Orthodox believe these souls are not sure of their salvation (or do I have this wrong?)

My understanding of Roman Catholic teaching is that the souls in Purgatory ARE assured of their eventual salvation. 

Is this definitely true Catholics?  Or does Rome allow for the belief that those in purgatory are not assured of their salvation?

~K
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 01:35:35 AM »

Salvation is assured for those in purgatory.
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 01:49:26 AM »

so the damned don't go through purgatory then, they just go straight to hell?
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 02:14:17 AM »

so the damned don't go through purgatory then, they just go straight to hell?
Yes
Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 04:05:25 AM »

so the damned don't go through purgatory then, they just go straight to hell?
Yes

so basically, RC's pray for others when they are departed as if they went to purgatory? Since you can never know for sure if someone went to hell....
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 04:06:10 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Peter J
Formerly PJ
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Melkite
Posts: 6,170



« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 09:32:55 AM »

My understanding of Roman Catholic teaching is that the souls in Purgatory ARE assured of their eventual salvation. 

Quote
‘But there is a real choice after death? My Roman Catholic friends would be surprised, for to them souls in Purgatory are already saved. And my Protestant friends would like it no better, for they’d say that the tree lies as it falls.’
- from The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis
Logged

- Peter Jericho (a CAF poster)
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 01:03:03 PM »

so the damned don't go through purgatory then, they just go straight to hell?
Yes

so basically, RC's pray for others when they are departed as if they went to purgatory? Since you can never know for sure if someone went to hell....
Yes...we pray for everyone who is departed in the hopes that they at least went to purgatory. There is a pious belief that I've heard from somewhere (can't recall exactly where) that if you are praying for someone who is actually in hell that God applies your prayer to another soul or souls. To me it seems like a reasonable belief because it is based on the assumption that a prayer never goes to waste or is never in vain.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 01:09:00 PM by Wyatt » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 03:30:29 AM »

I think Orthodox would say that our prayers for those who are experiencing a foretaste of hell can be beneficial for those souls, in what way we can't say.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 04:28:47 AM »

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades. 

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

The Russian Church has a beautiful and compunctionate "Akathist for the repose for those who have fallen asleep" in which we pray for suicides and other souls. It was printed in Orthodox Life, Vol 6, No. 5, Sept-Oct.,1955, p. 3-11.

If we read these prayers with our eyes wide open, it is amazing what is being said in them - about God, about the nature of His mercy, about His willingness to forgive even beyond the grave.

This is from Ikos 5:

And we believe that even beyond the grave Thy loving kindness, which is merciful even
to all rejected sinners, does not fail. We grieve for hardened and wicked blasphemers of
Thy Holiness. May Thy saving and gracious will be over them. Forgive, O Lord, those
who have died without repentance.

Save those who have committed suicide in the darkness of their mind,
that the flame of their sinfulness may be extinguished in the ocean of Thy grace.

O Lord of unutterable Love, remember Thy servants who have fallen asleep.



You can find this whole lengthy prayer for those who have died as an “add-on” at the bottom of message 1207
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424505.html#msg424505
Logged
FrChris
The Rodney Dangerfield of OC.net
Site Supporter
Taxiarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 7,252


Holy Father Patrick, thank you for your help!


« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 08:35:11 AM »

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades. 

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.


Logged

"As the sparrow flees from a hawk, so the man seeking humility flees from an argument". St John Climacus
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 10:24:33 AM »

GOARCH's belief about this seems attuned to the Roman Catholic.

Is it what is taught in the seminaries?  

We obviously have a very significant diversion of belief between Greeks and Russians, with Greeks having no hope of repentance or betterment after death, and Russians believing that we do..

Thank you for the info from GOARCH.  I did not know that Greeks and Russians differ,

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 10:32:16 AM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 10:37:27 AM »


The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided.

Well, there is a one positive side effect of this teaching - no toll houses.  Smiley
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,928


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 10:41:57 AM »

GOARCH's belief about this seems attuned to the Roman Catholic.

Is it what is taught in the seminaries?  

We obviously have a very significant diversion of belief between Greeks and Russians, with Greeks having no hope of repentance or betterment after death, and Russians believing that we do..

Thank you for the info from GOARCH.  I did not know that Greeks and Russians differ,

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.


So far, Fr. Ambrose, all you've quoted on this thread are a couple of posts you submitted and the text of a Russian hymn that can be interpreted a plethora of different ways. Fr. Chris countered with an official Web page from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Whom do you expect will be deemed more believable? Are we supposed to trust you against the GOAA on your authority alone?

If you wish to be believed, Fr. Ambrose, the best way to accomplish this is to show us an official Web page of the Russian Orthodox Church that supports your doctrines on the possibility of repentance after death.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 10:46:26 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 10:58:47 AM »

GOARCH's belief about this seems attuned to the Roman Catholic.

Is it what is taught in the seminaries?  

We obviously have a very significant diversion of belief between Greeks and Russians, with Greeks having no hope of repentance or betterment after death, and Russians believing that we do..

Thank you for the info from GOARCH.  I did not know that Greeks and Russians differ,

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.


So far, Fr. Ambrose, all you've quoted on this thread are a couple of posts you submitted and the text of a Russian hymn that can be interpreted a plethora of different ways. Fr. Chris countered with an official Web page from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Whom do you expect will be deemed more believable? Are we supposed to trust you against the GOAA on your authority alone?


I am not sure what authority I have.  On this forum, none. I am neither parish priest nor spiritual father to any forum members.  But there is the authority of the Gospel and the words of the Saviour about the forgiveness of sin after death.   There is also of course the liturgical tradition of the Church and the Third Kneeling Prayer which we read in church on Pentecost Sunday. We  pray to the Lord Almighty that He will release those who are held in the bondage of Hell.   

...who also on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept
propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in Hell, promising unto us and
unto those held in bondage great hope of release from the vileness that doth
hinder us and hinder them.  We who are living will bless thee, and will pray,
and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls."


You may understand that I do not believe the GOARCH site is correctly portraying Orthodox belief.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2012, 11:18:53 AM »

If you wish to be believed, Fr. Ambrose, the best way to accomplish this is to show us an official Web page of the Russian Orthodox Church that supports your doctrines on the possibility of repentance after death.

Here is the official website of the Department for External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx

See the antepenultimate paragraph.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2012, 12:03:17 PM »

I read through the GOA website article, and it has some 'anomalies':

1) There is no author mentioned.

2) The only source mentioned for this teaching is Christos Androutsos, who was considered a 'scholastic' and heavily influenced by Western thinking (c.f. http://www.scribd.com/doc/35976216/Lucian-Turcescu-editor-Dumitru-Staniloae-Tradition-and-Modernity-in-Theology, p.1).

3) This appears to be the reproduction of a tract rather than a proper theological dissertation.

4) Androutsos had a number of theological problems, such as "...[he] rejected the essence/energies distinction (p. 203) and accepted ‘Anselm’s juristic interpretation of Christ’s crucifixion’ (p. 205),..." (http://logismoitouaaron.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html)

I have not found this teaching in any other Orthodox book in my possession, so I assume that it is strictly a repeat of Androutsos.  Given that his dogmatics is not even available in English, I assume that he is no longer an influential figure in Greek Orthodox theology.  Otherwise, he would have been translated as an essential part of any Greek Orthodox library in English.

This might be going out on a limb, but my experience is that websites are maintained by computer people, not theologians.  Unless I see the name of a GOA bishop attached to an article, I would not necessarily assume that this or anything else represents an official statement of the Faith.  Particularly in a large organization, things can fall through the cracks.

Greek Orthodox theology went through a rather profound shift in the 20th century, with figures like Fr. John Romanides redefining a great deal of the Greek Orthodox approach to theology.  I think this article looks to be a 'pre-renaissance' hold-over.  You certainly won't find this approach in the Athonite Fathers.


Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.


« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:10:42 PM by FatherGiryus » Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,928


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2012, 01:06:38 PM »

GOARCH's belief about this seems attuned to the Roman Catholic.

Is it what is taught in the seminaries?  

We obviously have a very significant diversion of belief between Greeks and Russians, with Greeks having no hope of repentance or betterment after death, and Russians believing that we do..

Thank you for the info from GOARCH.  I did not know that Greeks and Russians differ,

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.


So far, Fr. Ambrose, all you've quoted on this thread are a couple of posts you submitted and the text of a Russian hymn that can be interpreted a plethora of different ways. Fr. Chris countered with an official Web page from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Whom do you expect will be deemed more believable? Are we supposed to trust you against the GOAA on your authority alone?


I am not sure what authority I have.  On this forum, none. I am neither parish priest nor spiritual father to any forum members.  But there is the authority of the Gospel and the words of the Saviour about the forgiveness of sin after death.   There is also of course the liturgical tradition of the Church and the Third Kneeling Prayer which we read in church on Pentecost Sunday. We  pray to the Lord Almighty that He will release those who are held in the bondage of Hell.   

...who also on this all-perfect and saving feast, art graciously pleased to accept
propitiatory prayers for those who are imprisoned in Hell, promising unto us and
unto those held in bondage great hope of release from the vileness that doth
hinder us and hinder them.  We who are living will bless thee, and will pray,
and offer unto thee propitiatory prayers and sacrifices for their souls."


You may understand that I do not believe the GOARCH site is correctly portraying Orthodox belief.

If you wish to be believed, Fr. Ambrose, the best way to accomplish this is to show us an official Web page of the Russian Orthodox Church that supports your doctrines on the possibility of repentance after death.

Here is the official website of the Department for External Church Relations of the Moscow Patriarchate

http://orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx

See the antepenultimate paragraph.
But the GOAA article also cites the Gospel and our hymnography in support of its position, and, until proven otherwise, I'm left to assume that the article has the approval of the Holy Synod of the GOAA. The article you post from Metropolitan Hilarion, though submitted to an official Web page of the Russian Orthodox Church by possibly the most eminent theologian of said church, does represent the theological musing of one man and not the approved proclamation of a synod. So again, I ask why we should believe you over Fr. Chris and the GOAA.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 01:22:37 PM »

  The GOAA article is unsigned, thus it has far less reliability than a signed one.

You cannot assume that the article has been approved by the Holy Synod unless you know for sure that all materials on the website are given such a review process.  From my experience, a large (though dwindling) number of bishops do not view their own websites and have little idea of their contents.

Unless you can prove your assumption to be correct, it is no less of a jump to a conclusion than Fr. Ambrose.


But the GOAA article also cites the Gospel and our hymnography in support of its position, and, until proven otherwise, I'm left to assume that the article has the approval of the Holy Synod of the GOAA. The article you post from Metropolitan Hilarion, though submitted to an official Web page of the Russian Orthodox Church by possibly the most eminent theologian of said church, does represent the theological musing of one man and not the approved proclamation of a synod. So again, I ask why we should believe you over Fr. Chris and the GOAA.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,928


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2012, 01:47:11 PM »

 The GOAA article is unsigned, thus it has far less reliability than a signed one.
Far less reliability to whom? Personally, I think an unsigned article posted on an official Web site of the GOAA more reliable than an article signed by only one bishop. With the former, we have the possibility that the article has the approval of a synod, but with the latter we have the certainty that it represents the thoughts of only one man.

You cannot assume that the article has been approved by the Holy Synod unless you know for sure that all materials on the website are given such a review process.
Maybe you can't. I would think one would usually assume automatically that materials posted on an official Web site would undergo such a review process, but you're right about the possibility they may not have.

From my experience, a large (though dwindling) number of bishops do not view their own websites and have little idea of their contents.

Unless you can prove your assumption to be correct, it is no less of a jump to a conclusion than Fr. Ambrose.[/font][/size]
Which I will admit may be true. However, Fr. Ambrose has posted as authoritative a teaching that contradicts what many here have received as Orthodox doctrine, and on little more than his own authority, AISI. Following Fr. Chris's lead, I'm merely trying to get Fr. Ambrose to defend his position from sources at least equal in authority to what Fr. Chris has posted.

It's also possible from my perspective that Fr. Chris may be citing faulty sources and that he needs to cite something more authoritative. I'll grant that it's certainly your prerogative to call his sources into question if you feel you must.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 01:51:14 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2012, 02:03:03 PM »

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.




ok now i'm confused, what's the purpose of praying for the dead then if there's "no help from the outside world"?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 02:03:42 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2012, 02:05:36 PM »

GOARCH's belief about this seems attuned to the Roman Catholic.

Is it what is taught in the seminaries? 
We obviously have a very significant diversion of belief between Greeks and Russians, with Greeks having no hope of repentance or betterment after death, and Russians believing that we do..

Thank you for the info from GOARCH.  I did not know that Greeks and Russians differ,

Orthodox state those in Hades with light sins may get out of hades.  

Much more than that.  Out of hell.  For a little more on the Orthodox belief see message 1216
at
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg424768.html#msg424768

That statement can be contrasted with the Orthodox belief as taught at GOARCH.org:

Quote
God's Judgement

JUDGMENT of the soul according to its faith and deeds on earth, is an unquestioned teaching of the Gospel. It is also a self-evident demand of human nature and reasoning. The Christian Church places this judgment at the very moment of the death of the individual for two reasons:

1.Any moral progress of the soul is excluded after its separation from the body; and
2.there is no hope of repentance or betterment after death.

The moral progress of the soul, either for better or for worse, ends at the very moment of the separation of the body and soul; at that very moment the definite destiny of the soul in the everlasting life is decided. (see Androutsos Dogmatics p. 409). It will be judged not according to its deeds one by one, but according to the entire total results of its deeds and thoughts. The Orthodox Church believes that at this moment the soul of the dead person begins to enjoy the consequences of its deeds and thoughts on earth - that is, to enjoy the life in Paradise or to undergo the life in Hell. There is no way of repentance, no way of escape, no reincarnation and no help from the outside world. Its place is decided forever by its Creator and judge.



Wasn't taught in my catechesis. Almost makes me wonder if this isn't a bait and switch tactic, to tell inquirers (mainly protestants) what they want to hear...
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2012, 02:20:49 PM »

When a bishop speaks, he does not so on his own, but on behalf of the Church (unless he specifically states otherwise).  If he misspeaks, then he is liable to be sanctioned by his synod.  This is far more of an authoritative relationship than an anonymous posting even on an official website, since we do not know what the policies are for posting.  The canons do not regulate websites, but they do regulate the speech of bishops.

The direct statement of a bishop in regards to doctrine clearly falls under canonical norms.  Websites only so by extension, which implies a great deal more leeway.  Therefore, the signed statement is far more authoritative than the unsigned in that it is directly government by canonical norms.  Until a Great Council writes new canons governing websites, you can't really compare the two.

To be honest, you really can't call out Fr. Ambrose on the topic because you already know from previous threads (remember the Toll House Saga?) that there are no authoritative statements on the topic that are universally-recognized.


 The GOAA article is unsigned, thus it has far less reliability than a signed one.
Far less reliability to whom? Personally, I think an unsigned article posted on an official Web site of the GOAA more reliable than an article signed by only one bishop. With the former, we have the possibility that the article has the approval of a synod, but with the latter we have the certainty that it represents the thoughts of only one man.

You cannot assume that the article has been approved by the Holy Synod unless you know for sure that all materials on the website are given such a review process.
Maybe you can't. I would think one would usually assume automatically that materials posted on an official Web site would undergo such a review process, but you're right about the possibility they may not have.

From my experience, a large (though dwindling) number of bishops do not view their own websites and have little idea of their contents.

Unless you can prove your assumption to be correct, it is no less of a jump to a conclusion than Fr. Ambrose.[/font][/size]
Which I will admit may be true. However, Fr. Ambrose has posted as authoritative a teaching that contradicts what many here have received as Orthodox doctrine, and on little more than his own authority, AISI. Following Fr. Chris's lead, I'm merely trying to get Fr. Ambrose to defend his position from sources at least equal in authority to what Fr. Chris has posted.

It's also possible from my perspective that Fr. Chris may be citing faulty sources and that he needs to cite something more authoritative. I'll grant that it's certainly your prerogative to call his sources into question if you feel you must.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,397


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2012, 02:43:43 PM »

Orthodox Priests pray for forgiveness of sins during the Trisagion Prayers for the newly departed:

Quote
p. 184 - Again we pray for the repose of the soul of the servant of God, N., departed this life; and that Thou wilt pardon his/her every transgression, both voluntary and involuntary.

Quote
p. 185 - That the Lord God will establish his/her soul where the Just repost; the mercies of God, the kingdom of heaven, and remission of his sins, let us ask of Christ, our Immortal King and our God.

Service Book of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Edition, 1997, p. 184-185.

So, why would Orthodox Priests pray for the pardon of his/her every transgression, if these newly departed souls could not benefit from this prayer?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 02:47:21 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2012, 02:45:14 PM »

Orthodox Priests pray for forgiveness of sins during the Trisagion Prayers for the newly departed:

Quote
Again we pray for the repose of the soul of the servant of God, N., departed this life; and that Thou wilt pardon his/her every transgression, both voluntary and involuntary.

Service Book of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Edition, 1997, p. 184.

So, why would they pray for the pardon of his/her every transgression, if they could not benefit from this prayer?
That entire thing has had me confused...

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,928


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2012, 02:49:17 PM »

When a bishop speaks, he does not so on his own, but on behalf of the Church (unless he specifically states otherwise).  If he misspeaks, then he is liable to be sanctioned by his synod. This is far more of an authoritative relationship than an anonymous posting even on an official website, since we do not know what the policies are for posting.  The canons do not regulate websites, but they do regulate the speech of bishops.

The direct statement of a bishop in regards to doctrine clearly falls under canonical norms.  Websites only so by extension, which implies a great deal more leeway.  Therefore, the signed statement is far more authoritative than the unsigned in that it is directly government by canonical norms.  Until a Great Council writes new canons governing websites, you can't really compare the two.

To be honest, you really can't call out Fr. Ambrose on the topic because you already know from previous threads (remember the Toll House Saga?) that there are no authoritative statements on the topic that are universally-recognized.

I'm calling him out on this? I didn't think I was doing that. Fr. Chris called Fr. Ambrose out on this. I'm merely challenging Fr. Ambrose to accept the challenge of proving that his doctrine really is Orthodox.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,397


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2012, 02:51:09 PM »

Then there is more from the same Service Book (p. 185)

Quote
O God of spirits and of all flesh, who has trampled down Death, and made powerless the Devil, and given life to the world: Do Thou, the same Lord, give rest to the soul of Thy departed servant, N., in a place of brightness, a place of verdure, a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow, and sighing have fled away. Pardon every sin which he/she hath committed, whether by word, or deed, or thought; for Thou are good, and lovest mankind: for there is no man who liveth and sinneth not, and Thou only art without sin, and Thy righteousness is to all eternity, and Thy law is truth.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 02:51:47 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2012, 02:52:34 PM »

GOARCH's belief about this seems attuned to the Roman Catholic.

Is it what is taught in the seminaries?  

We obviously have a very significant diversion of belief between Greeks and Russians, with Greeks having no hope of repentance or betterment after death, and Russians believing that we do..

Thank you for the info from GOARCH.  I did not know that Greeks and Russians differ

Perhaps you don't remember, but I have pointed that out before on more than one doctrinal point over the years.

I don't think all is confusion or conflict here, regardless of what is there in black and white. 

It happens this way between Orthodox and Catholics too on a variety of issues. 

IF you consider that once one is dead, the conscience can no longer choose between good and evil, once we are dead and the soul temporarily separated from the body, there is no self-generated moral progress.  That seems evident and not in contrast or contradiction with the Fathers, whose hope for the soul lies in the mercy of God and not in the right actions of the conscience from which come all personal moral goods.

In that way, both teachings can be true.
Logged

Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,397


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2012, 02:56:36 PM »

And from the Funeral Service from that Antiochian Service Book, p. 188

Quote
Give rest, O Lord, to the soul of thy servant, and establish him/her in Paradise; where the Choirs of the Saints, and of the Just, shine like the stars of heaven; Give rest to they servant who hath fallen asleep, regarding not all the charges against him/her.

Quote
Devoutly do we hymn the triple Splendor of the one Godhead, crying aloud: Holy art thou, O Father, who art from everlasting; O Son, Co-eternal; and Spirit divine! Illumine us who with faith do worship thee; and rescue us from fire eternal.

Yes I do believe that our prayers are effective, as are the prayers for remission of sin which the priest prays over the newly departed.

So, could these prayers release a departed one from fire eternal?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:02:24 PM by Maria » Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2012, 02:56:43 PM »

Orthodox Priests pray for forgiveness of sins during the Trisagion Prayers for the newly departed:

Quote
p. 184 - Again we pray for the repose of the soul of the servant of God, N., departed this life; and that Thou wilt pardon his/her every transgression, both voluntary and involuntary.

Quote
p. 185 - That the Lord God will establish his/her soul where the Just repost; the mercies of God, the kingdom of heaven, and remission of his sins, let us ask of Christ, our Immortal King and our God.

Service Book of the Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church, Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America, Tenth Edition, 1997, p. 184-185.

So, why would Orthodox Priests pray for the pardon of his/her every transgression, if these newly departed souls could not benefit from this prayer?

Prayer to God has the benefit of not being restricted by time in its efficacy.  Since He (beyond exists) beyond the limits of linear time, a prayer to Him can have benefit even for those who have already passed on.  It is not a fruitless exercise.

However, from the POV of the deceased, their time to repent is over at death.  As a simple spirit with no body, they are predisposed to act in death as they have in life, and do not have the benefit of the changability of the body to justify repentance (i.e. the distinction between human and angelic sin - when the angels rebelled they had no chance to repent, since as simple spirits they were aligned purely without distraction; we, on the other hand, are distracted by our senses, feelings, limited scope, etc.).  We become in a manner of speaking like the angels - i.e. we are at that moment only spirit - and, like them, have a straight trajectory to follow.

Our hope rests in the Church militant, the living followers of Christ, that they may pray for us and our benefit, to plead before God (as the angels, saints, and, most of all, the Theotokos do) for mercy on our souls.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2012, 02:59:53 PM »

And from the Funeral Service from that Antiochian Service Book, p. 188

Quote
Give rest, O Lord, to the soul of thy servant, and establish him/her in Paradise; where the Choirs of the Saints, and of the Just, shine like the stars of heaven; Give rest to they servant who hath fallen asleep, regarding not all the charges against him/her.

Right - the belief that we can effectively pray for the deceased is not limited by the belief that the deceased cannot pray for themselves.

At the funeral service when a hierarch presides (and, in some jurisdictions, at all funerals), a prayer of absolution is read.  In that prayer he releases the deceased from any curse, ban, anathema, etc. that was against him - would he be praying an ineffective prayer?  (What about lex orandi lex credendi?)  Of course he isn't - he is praying to the One Who (beyond) exists outside of the boundaries and limitations of time.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,210


that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2012, 03:00:39 PM »

However, from the POV of the deceased, their time to repent is over at death.  As a simple spirit with no body, they are predisposed to act in death as they have in life, and do not have the benefit of the changability of the body to justify repentance (i.e. the distinction between human and angelic sin - when the angels rebelled they had no chance to repent, since as simple spirits they were aligned purely without distraction; we, on the other hand, are distracted by our senses, feelings, limited scope, etc.).  We become in a manner of speaking like the angels - i.e. we are at that moment only spirit - and, like them, have a straight trajectory to follow.

But only God is truly "simple" and "only spirit," thus while we are material to a much lesser extent in the afterlife (both before and after the general resurrection), we will still be material in some sense compared to God, as the angels also are.
Logged
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,397


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2012, 03:13:46 PM »

And from the Funeral Service from that Antiochian Service Book, p. 188

Quote
Give rest, O Lord, to the soul of thy servant, and establish him/her in Paradise; where the Choirs of the Saints, and of the Just, shine like the stars of heaven; Give rest to they servant who hath fallen asleep, regarding not all the charges against him/her.

Right - the belief that we can effectively pray for the deceased is not limited by the belief that the deceased cannot pray for themselves.

At the funeral service when a hierarch presides (and, in some jurisdictions, at all funerals), a prayer of absolution is read.  In that prayer he releases the deceased from any curse, ban, anathema, etc. that was against him - would he be praying an ineffective prayer?  (What about lex orandi lex credendi?)  Of course he isn't - he is praying to the One Who (beyond) exists outside of the boundaries and limitations of time.

Here is the prayer of absolution from the Funeral Service (Antiochian Service Book, p. 198-199)

Quote
PRIEST: Our Lord Jesus Christ, by his divine grace, as also by the gift and power vouchsafed unto his holy Disciples and Apostles, that they should bind and loose the sins of men: (For he said unto them: Receive ye the Holy Spirit: Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted; and whosesoever sins ye retain they are retained. And whatsoever ye shall bind or loose upon earth shall be bound or loosed also in heaven.  By that same power, also, transmitted unto us from them, this my spiritual child, N., is absolved, through me, unworthy through I be, from all things wherein, as mortal, he hath sinned against God, whether in word, or deed, or thought, and with all his senses, whether voluntary or involuntary;' whether with knowledge or through ignorance. If he be under the ban or excommunication of a Bishop, or of a Priest; or that sinned by any oath; or hath been bound, as man, by any sins whatsoever, but hath repented him thereof, with contrition of heart: he is now absolved from all those faults and bonds. May all those things which have proceeded from the weakness of his mortal nature be consigned to oblivion, and be remitted unto him: Through His loving-kindness; through the prayers of our most holy, and blessed, and glorious Lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary' of the holy, glorious, and all-laudable Apostles and of all the Saints. Amen.

In this final prayer of absolution, there is the mention that the newly departed has repented with contrition of heart.
Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2012, 03:16:59 PM »

Whew ok i'm glad we got that cleared up. Ya, so i think someone should pm the webmaster over at GOAA or whoever and tell him that's not representative of orthodox teaching...
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2012, 03:36:28 PM »

The effect is much the same, isn't it?   Wink

I'm calling him out on this? I didn't think I was doing that. Fr. Chris called Fr. Ambrose out on this. I'm merely challenging Fr. Ambrose to accept the challenge of proving that his doctrine really is Orthodox.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2012, 03:37:20 PM »

However, from the POV of the deceased, their time to repent is over at death.  As a simple spirit with no body, they are predisposed to act in death as they have in life, and do not have the benefit of the changability of the body to justify repentance (i.e. the distinction between human and angelic sin - when the angels rebelled they had no chance to repent, since as simple spirits they were aligned purely without distraction; we, on the other hand, are distracted by our senses, feelings, limited scope, etc.).  We become in a manner of speaking like the angels - i.e. we are at that moment only spirit - and, like them, have a straight trajectory to follow.

But only God is truly "simple" and "only spirit," thus while we are material to a much lesser extent in the afterlife (both before and after the general resurrection), we will still be material in some sense compared to God, as the angels also are.

Any terminology that we use to describe the angels and men will also be insufficient to describe God, so I was using the terminology without using God as a reference point in its application.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2012, 03:38:02 PM »

Whew ok i'm glad we got that cleared up. Ya, so i think someone should pm the webmaster over at GOAA or whoever and tell him that's not representative of orthodox teaching...

It's obvious by your concluding statement that nothing is cleared up.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2012, 03:38:25 PM »

And from the Funeral Service from that Antiochian Service Book, p. 188

Quote
Give rest, O Lord, to the soul of thy servant, and establish him/her in Paradise; where the Choirs of the Saints, and of the Just, shine like the stars of heaven; Give rest to they servant who hath fallen asleep, regarding not all the charges against him/her.

Right - the belief that we can effectively pray for the deceased is not limited by the belief that the deceased cannot pray for themselves.

At the funeral service when a hierarch presides (and, in some jurisdictions, at all funerals), a prayer of absolution is read.  In that prayer he releases the deceased from any curse, ban, anathema, etc. that was against him - would he be praying an ineffective prayer?  (What about lex orandi lex credendi?)  Of course he isn't - he is praying to the One Who (beyond) exists outside of the boundaries and limitations of time.

Here is the prayer of absolution from the Funeral Service (Antiochian Service Book, p. 198-199)

Quote
PRIEST: Our Lord Jesus Christ, by his divine grace, as also by the gift and power vouchsafed unto his holy Disciples and Apostles, that they should bind and loose the sins of men: (For he said unto them: Receive ye the Holy Spirit: Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted; and whosesoever sins ye retain they are retained. And whatsoever ye shall bind or loose upon earth shall be bound or loosed also in heaven.  By that same power, also, transmitted unto us from them, this my spiritual child, N., is absolved, through me, unworthy through I be, from all things wherein, as mortal, he hath sinned against God, whether in word, or deed, or thought, and with all his senses, whether voluntary or involuntary;' whether with knowledge or through ignorance. If he be under the ban or excommunication of a Bishop, or of a Priest; or that sinned by any oath; or hath been bound, as man, by any sins whatsoever, but hath repented him thereof, with contrition of heart: he is now absolved from all those faults and bonds. May all those things which have proceeded from the weakness of his mortal nature be consigned to oblivion, and be remitted unto him: Through His loving-kindness; through the prayers of our most holy, and blessed, and glorious Lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary' of the holy, glorious, and all-laudable Apostles and of all the Saints. Amen.

In this final prayer of absolution, there is the mention that the newly departed has repented with contrition of heart.


Yes - before death, on their deathbed.
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
Maria
Orthodox Christian
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,397


O most Holy Theotokos, save us.


« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2012, 03:38:54 PM »

Nevertheless, according to one Orthodox source, it seems like the newly departed may experience some torments for a time (similar to purgatory):

Quote
The Fathers of the Church, basing themselves on the word of God, suppose that the torments of sinners before the Last Judgment have a preparatory character. These torments can be eased and even taken away by the prayers of the Church ("Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs," par. 18). Likewise, the fallen spirits are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness (in hell) until the judgment of the great day (Jude, v. y; II Peter 2:4).

Pomazansky, Michael, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, Third Edition, Trans. by Seraphim Rose, St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 2005. p. 335

Logged

Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him forever!
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2012, 03:44:46 PM »

Nevertheless, according to one Orthodox source, it seems like the newly departed may experience some torments for a time (similar to purgatory):

Quote
The Fathers of the Church, basing themselves on the word of God, suppose that the torments of sinners before the Last Judgment have a preparatory character. These torments can be eased and even taken away by the prayers of the Church ("Encyclical of the Eastern Patriarchs," par. 18). Likewise, the fallen spirits are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness (in hell) until the judgment of the great day (Jude, v. y; II Peter 2:4).

Pomazansky, Michael, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, Third Edition, Trans. by Seraphim Rose, St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, 2005. p. 335

You notice that the quote states that the torments can be taken away by the "prayers of the Church," not by the individual.  There is still no repentance or change enacted by the individual.  (I'm not accepting the teaching of toll houses by making this response, btw.)
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 03:45:00 PM by Fr. George » Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 32,928


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2012, 03:53:30 PM »

Whew ok i'm glad we got that cleared up. Ya, so i think someone should pm the webmaster over at GOAA or whoever and tell him that's not representative of orthodox teaching...
No one's saying that.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2012, 04:09:45 PM »

Why can't that someone be you?    police

Whew ok i'm glad we got that cleared up. Ya, so i think someone should pm the webmaster over at GOAA or whoever and tell him that's not representative of orthodox teaching...
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2012, 04:10:32 PM »

Why can't that someone be you?    police

Whew ok i'm glad we got that cleared up. Ya, so i think someone should pm the webmaster over at GOAA or whoever and tell him that's not representative of orthodox teaching...

lol...well i dont carry much authority... Embarrassed
Logged
Fr. George
formerly "Cleveland"
Administrator
Stratopedarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox (Catholic) Christian
Jurisdiction: GOA - Metropolis of Pittsburgh
Posts: 20,110


May the Lord bless you and keep you always!


« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2012, 04:13:35 PM »

Wasn't taught in my catechesis. Almost makes me wonder if this isn't a bait and switch tactic, to tell inquirers (mainly protestants) what they want to hear...

I don't know why I didn't catch this earlier - this is a serious charge, you know (considering bait and switch is illegal in, say, retail sales and the like).  And what sinister purpose is behind such a "bait and switch" in theology?  Why would the GOA webmaster put up an article that is more serious and, ostensibly, less merciful (in that it doesn't provide a means for the individual to repent after death) that what you purport to be the Orthodox position?
Logged

"The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the one who can't read them." Mark Twain
---------------------
Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
J Michael
Older than dirt; dumber than a box of rocks; colossally ignorant; a little crazy ;-)
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 10,238


Lord, have mercy! I live under a rock. Alleluia!


« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2012, 04:15:12 PM »

Why can't that someone be you?    police

Whew ok i'm glad we got that cleared up. Ya, so i think someone should pm the webmaster over at GOAA or whoever and tell him that's not representative of orthodox teaching...

lol...well i dont carry much authority... Embarrassed

You could form it as a question.  You don't need much authority to ask.  Or do you?
Logged

"May Thy Cross, O Lord, in which I seek refuge, be for me a bridge across the great river of fire.  May I pass along it to the habitation of life." ~St. Ephraim the Syrian

"Sometimes you're the windshield.  Sometimes you're the bug." ~ Mark Knopfler (?)
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2012, 04:19:35 PM »

Wasn't taught in my catechesis. Almost makes me wonder if this isn't a bait and switch tactic, to tell inquirers (mainly protestants) what they want to hear...

I don't know why I didn't catch this earlier - this is a serious charge, you know (considering bait and switch is illegal in, say, retail sales and the like).  And what sinister purpose is behind such a "bait and switch" in theology?  Why would the GOA webmaster put up an article that is more serious and, ostensibly, less merciful (in that it doesn't provide a means for the individual to repent after death) that what you purport to be the Orthodox position?

i've seen Orthodox articles before that express teachings in a manner that are more "convert friendly" or less controversial to the protestant eye than what the church actually teaches. And considering most people reading that article are probably going to be inquirers (most likely from a protestant background) I think its something that should be considered. Is true Orthodox teaching being distorted here to make it seem more palatable to the audience?

I think it goes without saying that protestants are more comfortable with the view expressed on the GOA website than the contrary position which is being represented in this thread. So with all that being said, i think we should at least acknowledge the possibility.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 04:21:25 PM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.205 seconds with 73 queries.