Author Topic: "Peter has spoken through Leo" proved Papal supremacy and infallibility?  (Read 1118 times)

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Offline augustin717

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 02:02:35 AM by augustin717 »
Les démons du hasard selon
Le chant du firmament nous mènent
A sons perdus leurs violons
Font danser notre race humaine
Sur la descente à reculons

Destins destins impénétrables
Rois secoués par la folie
Et ces grelottantes étoiles
De fausses femmes dans vos lits
Aux déserts que l'histoire accable

Offline Porter ODoran

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Nyet.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
Matthew 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
…17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…
A couple of months ago a lightbulb came up above my head when I noticed the future tense in that sentence.  When does Our Lord give Peter the keys?  In Galilee, to him and to the other Apostles at the same time.  Peter was not the only Apostle to receive the keys nor did he in advance, hardly a justification for modern papal claims.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Some even Orthodox posters have wanted to position this as a contradiction or supercedence to the passages which recount the Lord giving the keys to the Apostles as he returned to his Father. Plainly St. Peter received a promise of that event here, nothing more.
it's most likely a second century interpolation when Rome was already trying to create its own mythology and pedigree and project it back into that mythical apostolic golden age.
One would think you'd be too busy with your own mythology of misnamed "historical materialism" (which has no material existence in history) and its fabricated dialectic, to have time to make up such baseless nonsense, easily disproved (e.g. why would Rome interpolate its pedigree in the Antiochian Gospel and not the one associated with Old Rome, i.e. St. Mark?)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 12:04:44 AM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline augustin717

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
Matthew 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
…17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…
A couple of months ago a lightbulb came up above my head when I noticed the future tense in that sentence.  When does Our Lord give Peter the keys?  In Galilee, to him and to the other Apostles at the same time.  Peter was not the only Apostle to receive the keys nor did he in advance, hardly a justification for modern papal claims.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Some even Orthodox posters have wanted to position this as a contradiction or supercedence to the passages which recount the Lord giving the keys to the Apostles as he returned to his Father. Plainly St. Peter received a promise of that event here, nothing more.
it's most likely a second century interpolation when Rome was already trying to create its own mythology and pedigree and project it back into that mythical apostolic golden age.
One would think you'd be too busy with your own mythology of misnamed "historical materialism" (which has no material existence in history) and its fabricated dialectic, to have time to make up such baseless nonsense, easily disproved (e.g. why would Rome interpolate its pedigree in the Antiochian Gospel and not the one associated with Old Rome, i.e. St. Mark?)
one thing is sure -apart from a deus ex machina explanation- no Palestinian Jew could have uttered those words in the first century. So you ha e to the domain them as theological development/reflection etc .
Les démons du hasard selon
Le chant du firmament nous mènent
A sons perdus leurs violons
Font danser notre race humaine
Sur la descente à reculons

Destins destins impénétrables
Rois secoués par la folie
Et ces grelottantes étoiles
De fausses femmes dans vos lits
Aux déserts que l'histoire accable

Offline Porter ODoran

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You r maybe even more accurately it reflects the second century conflict between Petrine that is Judaic Christianity and the Gentile or Pauline/Marcionite Christianity.
Matthew 16:18
Peter's Confession of Christ
…17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”…
A couple of months ago a lightbulb came up above my head when I noticed the future tense in that sentence.  When does Our Lord give Peter the keys?  In Galilee, to him and to the other Apostles at the same time.  Peter was not the only Apostle to receive the keys nor did he in advance, hardly a justification for modern papal claims.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. Some even Orthodox posters have wanted to position this as a contradiction or supercedence to the passages which recount the Lord giving the keys to the Apostles as he returned to his Father. Plainly St. Peter received a promise of that event here, nothing more.
it's most likely a second century interpolation when Rome was already trying to create its own mythology and pedigree and project it back into that mythical apostolic golden age.
One would think you'd be too busy with your own mythology of misnamed "historical materialism" (which has no material existence in history) and its fabricated dialectic, to have time to make up such baseless nonsense, easily disproved (e.g. why would Rome interpolate its pedigree in the Antiochian Gospel and not the one associated with Old Rome, i.e. St. Mark?)
one thing is sure -apart from a deus ex machina explanation- no Palestinian Jew could have uttered those words in the first century. So you ha e to the domain them as theological development/reflection etc .

The "words were uttered" by Jesus Christ in an intense conversation with his disciple Simon.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline augustin717

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Yes of course. Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius/Non est veritas hoc verbo verius.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 02:19:08 AM by augustin717 »
Les démons du hasard selon
Le chant du firmament nous mènent
A sons perdus leurs violons
Font danser notre race humaine
Sur la descente à reculons

Destins destins impénétrables
Rois secoués par la folie
Et ces grelottantes étoiles
De fausses femmes dans vos lits
Aux déserts que l'histoire accable

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Yes of course. Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius/Non est veritas hoc verbo verius.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline augustin717

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Yes of course. Credo quidquid dixit Dei Filius/Non est veritas hoc verbo verius.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator

"I believe everything the Son of God has said/ there is no truth truer than this word"
Les démons du hasard selon
Le chant du firmament nous mènent
A sons perdus leurs violons
Font danser notre race humaine
Sur la descente à reculons

Destins destins impénétrables
Rois secoués par la folie
Et ces grelottantes étoiles
De fausses femmes dans vos lits
Aux déserts que l'histoire accable

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Romaios

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one thing is sure -apart from a deus ex machina explanation- no Palestinian Jew could have uttered those words in the first century. So you ha e to the domain them as theological development/reflection etc .

Actually there are Jewish parallels. I don't have the Aramaic/Hebrew reference for this midrash at hand, but Roman-Catholic apologists often quote it in reference to the Gospel verse you consider to be forged:

Quote
When God was about to build his world, he could not rear it on the generation of Enos, nor on that of the flood, who brought destruction upon the world; but when he beheld that Abraham would arise in the future, he said' 'Behold, I have found a rock to build on it, and to found the world,' whence, also, Abraham is called a rock, as it is said' 'Look unto the rock whence ye are hewn.' (Isaiah 51:1)

Offline Xavier

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Quote
Similar requirements and praises were offered to Alexandria

Mina, Certainly. Because Alexandria was one of the sees with a connection to St. Peter. Local churches near Alexandria referred their disputes there. But all Churches including that of Alexandria referred major disputes to the Church of Rome and against the judgment of the Church of Rome, there never was appeal to another. This is explicitly laid down in the canons of the Council of Sardica which was presided over by none other than St. Athanasius of Alexandria in the time of Pope St. Julius I. And an identical procedure was followed by St. Cyril of Alexandria in having recourse to the judgment of Pope St. Celestine I. So on what grounds can you justify a scandalous permanent separation from the Roman Church? There are none and that is plainly schism.

 
Quote
and Constantinople.

Do you really want to go there? If you will not admit the teaching of the Roman Pontiffs themselves (such as Pope St. Gregory the Great clearly stating the Church at Constantinople has always been subject to the Apostolic Throne of St. Peter in Rome), hear it from two leading lights and Saintly monks of the royal city of Constantinople itself,St. Maximus and St. Theodore.

"How much more in the case of the clergy and Church of the Romans, which from old until now presides over all the churches which are under the sun? Having surely received this canonically, as well as from councils and the apostles, as from the princes of the latter (Peter and Paul), and being numbered in their company, she is subject to no writings or issues in synodical documents, on account of the eminence of her pontificate .....even as in all these things all are equally subject to her (the Church of Rome) according to sacerodotal law. And so when, without fear, but with all holy and becoming confidence, those ministers (the popes) are of the truly firm and immovable rock, that is of the most great and Apostolic Church of Rome." (Maximus, in J.B. Mansi, ed. Amplissima Collectio Conciliorum, vol. 10)

"Writing to Pope Leo III:
Since to great Peter Christ our Lord gave the office of Chief Shepherd after entrusting him with the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, to Peter or his successor must of necessity every novelty in the Catholic Church be referred. [Therefore], save us, oh most divine Head of Heads, Chief Shepherd of the Church of Heaven. (Theodore, Bk. I. Ep. 23)
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

St. Ephraem of Syria, Thou alone and Thy Mother are in all things fair; there is no flaw in Thee and no stain in Thy Mother

St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline Porter ODoran

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Just the idea of a single human absolute monarch of the whole world and all living souls is incredible hubris akin to the Evil One's. Technical argument around the subject is almost irrelevant.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline minasoliman

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The Primacy feelings between Rome and Alexandria were mutual.  Dionysius of Rome had to consult with Dionysius of Alexandria for an issue he dealt with.  Does that make Alexandria a primate over Rome in that century only to change the century after?

It's a form of ecclesiastical respect.  Alexandria wanted to do things with Rome for stronger unity.  But there were times when even BOTH Rome and Alexandria weren't consulted, such as the council of Constantinople, and even when both rejected the canons of that council, it didn't matter eventually.

In Ephesus 449, Rome was not consulted because the Church of Alexandria saw the Tome deviate from the the Orthodox faith.  If Rome was dogmatically held Primacy, our church would not have changed gears in the fifth century.  The same goes for Syria and Armenia.  If they felt the authority of Peter pertained only to the see of Rome, they wouldn't be against Chalcedon.  Our existence as OOs is proof that the honors give to Rome were a matter of spiritual respect and mutual honor (at times hyperbolic honor) of the Orthodoxy we all held at the time, not a set in stone dogmatic necessity.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.

What exactly is your problem here? 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Porter ODoran

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.

What exactly is your problem here?

What exactly makes it my problem? I can respect Malpana -- and I do -- without simply swallowing his ill-founded interruption and rebuke. I pushed back with an explanation of my reply to Augustin. He called me names like "nice" and "happy." I helpfully reminded him that it's his mother's duty to praise his erudition unconditionally. Now you are making inquiries into the precision level of my problem. Maybe I should get back to work.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Porter ODoran, for any offense I have caused, I apologize. The "names" I've called you are only meant to be a playful jab at the fact that you tend to react a *tad* strongly over very, very minor things. I am not looking for affirmation from people I do not know, nor do I care to be "my boy" Aquinas's apologist on an Orthodox forum. My intention with my "interruption" (in a thread already far afield of the OP) was merely to point out that, whatever Augustin's point may be, you are distorting what the quotation from Aquinas means. No offense intended.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Porter ODoran

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I personally think it's a bad idea that only those credentialed enough should make responses to atheistic arguments. And yes that's how I read your chiding intervention. But I'll leave it to you now to stand up for the Holy Evangelist St. Matthew. You intend to, don't you? Your superior knowledge of Latin and superior wit shall outshine my earnest hayseed attempts, and I'll be happy to see it. Godspeed.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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On the contrary, Quod fuit ab initio, quod audivimus, quod vidimus oculis nostris, quod perspeximus, et manus nostræ contrectaverunt de verbo vitæ.

Translation, please.

Mor Ephrem, section moderator


I John 1:1: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life ..." Augustin's fragment is from a poem of Thomas Aquinas in which Aquinas implies that to believe in Christ we must doubt our senses.

We need not distort what Aquinas was saying. He's talking about the Real Presence in the Eucharist. The point of this line from Adoro te devote (which hymn he composed for the establishment of the feast of Corpus Christi) is that we trust the Savior's words "This is my body... this is my blood" even though our senses only detect bread and wine.

This really isn't about your boy and whatever context he thought it necessary to tell us we must deny our senses if we're to believe in Christ. This is about Augustin, an atheist poster, making what he thinks is a subtle jab at the Holy Evangelist. Please read the thread.

I've already said that you seem nice. You also seem happy. I, on the other hand, must be deranged, thinking it worth my time to ever respond to inaccurate statements you make.

You really hold yourself up as the arbiter of what other posters mean by Latin epigrams? Thank you for contributing a generic commentary on Aquinas. Is that what you wanted to hear when you interrupted? I'm not your mother.

What exactly is your problem here?

What exactly makes it my problem? I can respect Malpana -- and I do -- without simply swallowing his ill-founded interruption and rebuke. I pushed back with an explanation of my reply to Augustin. He called me names like "nice" and "happy." I helpfully reminded him that it's his mother's duty to praise his erudition unconditionally. Now you are making inquiries into the precision level of my problem. Maybe I should get back to work.

Yeah, I think so.
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Slave driver.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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I personally think it's a bad idea that only those credentialed enough should make responses to atheistic arguments. And yes that's how I read your chiding intervention. But I'll leave it to you now to stand up for the Holy Evangelist St. Matthew. You intend to, don't you? Your superior knowledge of Latin and superior wit shall outshine my earnest hayseed attempts, and I'll be happy to see it. Godspeed.

It is interesting that you get all this from what I said. I see that further interaction is pointless.
Woe is me, that I have read the commandments,
   and have become learned in the Scriptures,
and have been instructed in Your glories,
   and yet I have become occupied in shameful things!

(Giwargis Warda, On Compunction of Soul)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Is that what you see? So you go from correcting to shunning in a few posts, offering nothing else? How rare must be the air you breathe.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Its simple and uncomplicated. Read how the Fathers of even the first five Christian centuries refuted those in schism and proved the absolute need to return to Catholic unity with the Chair of Peter in Rome. Take for example the Donatist schism though the same principle applied to both prior and later schisms.

"How does St. Optatus show that the Catholic Church did not go out from the Donatists, but that the Donatists went out from the Catholic Church? He does so by way of the Chair of St. Peter. The bishop that remains in communion with the Chair of St. Peter in Rome is the bishop who has remained with the Catholic Church. In this particular case, the bishop of Carthage who had remained in communion with the bishop of Rome, was Caecilian and his episcopal successors in Carthage. The bishop who has broken communion with the Chair of St. Peter is the bishop who is in schism from the Catholic Church. Therefore the bishop in Carthage who had broken fellowship with the Chair of St. Peter in Rome, was the bishop in schism from the Catholic Church. In this way St. Optatus shows that because Majorinus and his episcopal successors (and all the laypeople who followed them) had broken fellowship with the Chair of St. Peter, therefore they were the ones who had gone out from the Catholic Church, and were presently in schism from the Church."

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2011/06/st-optatus-on-schism-and-the-bishop-of-rome/

Similar requirements and praises were offered to Alexandria and Constantinople.  In other words, you can't be a bishop in the Catholic Church unless you're in communion with Alexandria or Constantinople.  The churches of the Far East established their catholicity through Antioch as well.  So it doesn't make sense that Rome ALONE has that type of power.  There's a much greater context of history than the stubborn lens you choose to look through.

Can you show us some examples of how not being in communion with Antioch or Alexandria or Constantinople is equivalent to schism?