Author Topic: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium  (Read 632 times)

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Offline Xavier

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The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« on: July 15, 2017, 07:22:53 AM »
The Athanasian Profession of Faith is a magnificent statement of orthodox Catholic Faith in the two great fundamental mysteries of salvation, namely the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of God the Word. Christian ages unanimously held it to be the work of St. Athanasius, as St. Caesarius of Arles who hands it down implies; the circumstances of its composition were when St. Athanasius had many enemies in the Church. He submitted to Pope St. Julius I a Professio Fidei intended as a certain proof of his orthodoxy against his enemies; but the Roman Church always esteemed it as so much more, not only a crowning proof of the Saintly Doctors orthodoxy, but also as so precise and exact a formulation of Trinitarian doctrine as to be a bulwark against very many errors concerning the Triune nature of God and the Incarnation.

A few modern or rather modernist scholars claim St. Ambrose or St. Vincent of Lerins first authored this profession of Faith, some supposedly in favor of a later date because it refutes Nestorianism and others that, they say, could not have been pre-emptively refuted by St. Athanasius himself. This would place the Creed much later than it is known to have been in existence.

 It is like the modernist claim that the Gospels must have been written after 70 A.D, because in them Christ the Lord foretells the fall of Jerusalem so perfectly and accurately as if He saw it happen, as to be inexplicable on their secularist presuppositions; whereas historical testimony and Church Tradition places St. Matthews Gospel account before St. Mark (which they also reverse) around 42 A.D; and history itself records that Christians were forewarned of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D when it actually happened.

Thus the secularistic and modernistic objections to Athanasian authorship are not at all compelling and lack supernatural spirit, although it should be noted anyway that the authority of the Quicumque would not be less if it were first drawn up by St. Ambrose or St. Vincent, or any other Saint or Father whom they prefer; there is the claim that the Athanasium follows some passages in St. Augustine very closely and thus was written after him, whereas more likely he was familiar with it and repeated some excerpts from it. Church Tradition indicates a similar solution to the so called synoptic problem which they also get wrong, claiming St. Matthew "copied" St. Mark where passages overlap whereas in fact St. Peter gave public sermons to confirm St. Matthews Gospel, which St. Mark wrote down.

The relevance of the Athanasium to Catholic-Orthodox issues is (1) its statement concerning the Two Natures of Christ from His two nativities united in Him, "God, of the Nature of His Father, begotten before the world and Man of the Nature of His Mother, born in the world ... Who although He is God and Man is not two but One Christ, for as the rational soul and flesh is one man (an union of two natures, the material and spiritual, in a single person) so God and Man are One Christ". And (2) its statement concerning the procession of the Holy Ghost and the distinction of Person in the Holy Trinity. "The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; not created nor begotten but proceeding".

Do Orthodox agree (1) this profession of Faith was first drawn up by St. Athanasius and (2) with the doctrine it teaches with respect to the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of Our Lord Jesus Christ?
The All-Holy Theotokos, the Panagia, is the perfect model of theosis, an image of the Church, Bride of God without "stain or blemish" (cf. Eph 5:27, SoS 4:7)

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St. Proclus of Constantinople, As He formed Her without any stain of Her own, so He proceeded from Her contracting no stain.

St. Sophronius of Jerusalem, No one has been purified in advance as Thou (Mary) hast been

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 09:04:54 AM »
No, it is not the work of Pope St. Athanasius. Orthodox enough in Christology, deficient in Trinitarianism.

We do not use it, btw.
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Offline AlioshaKaramazov

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 09:23:39 AM »
I guess doubting the supernatural inspiration and authenticity of the Donation of Constantine and the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals makes one a Bible-denying modernist too.

Online Asteriktos

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2017, 06:56:04 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2017, 07:44:38 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.

Bases of the criticism need to be shown. Any modern criticism that presumes things that simply preclude authentic proveniance aren't honest criticism.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2017, 08:28:13 PM »
No, it is not the work of Pope St. Athanasius. Orthodox enough in Christology, deficient in Trinitarianism.

We do not use it, btw.

This is inaccurate.  There is a version of it, which lacks the Filioque, and which I believe to be the uncorrupted original, in Russian Psalters and, according to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, Greek horologia.  It is available in English in A Psalter for Prayer, published by Jordanville Press.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 08:28:42 PM by Alpha60 »
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

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This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2017, 08:29:54 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.

Bases of the criticism need to be shown. Any modern criticism that presumes things that simply preclude authentic proveniance aren't honest criticism.

I agree.   Also, there is a widely published Orthodox version of the Athanasian creed which lacks the filioque. 
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 01:03:59 AM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 01:05:55 AM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?

Don't get them started.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 02:20:57 AM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?

I'd have to go back through some books to see (if I come across specific examples again, which I'm sure I will, I'll post them here), but part of the problem was that the quality and variety of ancient manuscripts were all over the place (as people like St. Jerome himself, and others like Augustine, lament), and any one person only had access to a limited amount of them, and thus was forming opinions about theological claims, variant readings and also possible additions/subtractions to their works, based on what was available to them. Then there was also the problem that their books weren't compiled like ours tend to be, and it was common to have missing parts; or with the Bibles canons having non-canonical books mixed in (not just as appendices) with canonical ones, or people saying X wasn't canonical and yet quote it as inspired scripture. I may have mentioned some error or misunderstanding of St. Jerome in that long 'Deuterocanonical Books...' thread in Faith Issues, I'll take a look in there.

St. Photius I could give more specific examples of off the top of my head, with him drawing conclusions based on the available evidence about St. Dionysius (in his Bibliotheca), or his inability to look up or directly answer points westerners made about Latin Fathers (for example in his Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit), despite having some of the best libraries at his disposal and being one of the most well-read men of his century. To paraphrase Newman, I've found that to be deep in history is to cease to be full of certainties. So much the better for faith I guess, if you can keep hold of it.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:22:02 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2017, 02:24:04 AM »
... To paraphrase Newman, I've found that to be deep in history is to cease to be full of certainties. So much the better for faith I guess, if you can keep hold of it.

The situation is nowhere near so self-indulgently dire.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2017, 02:31:56 AM »
... To paraphrase Newman, I've found that to be deep in history is to cease to be full of certainties. So much the better for faith I guess, if you can keep hold of it.

The situation is nowhere near so self-indulgently dire.

It's a psychological problem very real for some, not an objective analysis true for all.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2017, 03:07:17 AM »
... To paraphrase Newman, I've found that to be deep in history is to cease to be full of certainties. So much the better for faith I guess, if you can keep hold of it.

The situation is nowhere near so self-indulgently dire.

It's a psychological problem very real for some, not an objective analysis true for all.

Let me be plainer. Whenever I delve deeply into history or philology, I come back feeling satisfied and admiring the intelligence and orderliness of the ancients. Granted, I avoid most secondary sources and hold most modern commentators to be perverse and deceitful. And I self-educate; I don't suffer under professors' bullying opinions. Therefore, perhaps my experience is not representative. However, I think it right to present my perspective, which is one of great satisfaction coming with closer scrutiny of the ancients and the Church.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline ialmisry

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2017, 05:19:21 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?
For one, toss the LXX for the Rabbis' bible.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 10:37:31 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?
For one, toss the LXX for the Rabbis' bible.
He did overestimate the proto-MT a lot for his recensive translation, which had some effect on Latin Christianity... But I don't think it's fair to say he's tossed the LXX, for as much as I know.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2017, 10:40:32 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?
For one, toss the LXX for the Rabbis' bible.
He did overestimate the proto-MT a lot for his recensive translation, which had some effect on Latin Christianity... But I don't think it's fair to say he's tossed the LXX, for as much as I know.

Not fair at all. He was a capital philologist, quite possibly the best of all time. However, yes, he did more than consult the Masoretes; he drew from them as a source at least equal to LXX, and it's fair to say this eventually opened the door to the scholarly doctrine from the humanists till today that Masoretic text is only true text.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Alpha60

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2017, 08:53:58 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?
For one, toss the LXX for the Rabbis' bible.
He did overestimate the proto-MT a lot for his recensive translation, which had some effect on Latin Christianity... But I don't think it's fair to say he's tossed the LXX, for as much as I know.

Not fair at all. He was a capital philologist, quite possibly the best of all time. However, yes, he did more than consult the Masoretes; he drew from them as a source at least equal to LXX, and it's fair to say this eventually opened the door to the scholarly doctrine from the humanists till today that Masoretic text is only true text.

Fact check: the Masoreres did not exist in the fourth century.  St. Jerome consulted Hebrew texts which were centuries later evaluated and compiled by the Masoretes, about 400 years later, giving us the Masoretic text.  There are some variations between the pre-MT Hebraic used by St. Jerome and the actual MT, which is why the Vulgate doesn't always match the Masoretic text.

It's a pity the Hexapla is lost to us, by the way.
"It is logical that the actions of the human race over time will lead to its destruction.  I, Alpha 60, am merely the agent of this destruction."

- The computer Alpha 60, from Alphaville (1964) by Jean Luc Godard, the obvious inspiration for HAL-9000 from 2001: A Space Odyssey. 

This signature is not intended to offend any user, nor the relatives of Discovery 1 deputy commander Dr. Frank Poole,  and crew members Dr. Victor Kaminsky, Dr. Jack Kimball, and Dr. Charles Hunter.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2017, 09:34:06 PM »
Speaking to the more general claims: there's nothing wrong with critically considering authorship, dating, etc. It was done by Christians with Scripture (Revelation, Hebrews, 3 John, etc.) from the early centuries onwards, so why not the Athanasian Creed, writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Apostolic canons, and so on? Sometimes modern scholars take things too far--so too did some ancient critics like Jerome come to inaccurate conclusions. Nonetheless criticism can be done while maintaining a spirit of faithfulness and respect.
What did St. Jerome do inaccurate?
For one, toss the LXX for the Rabbis' bible.
He did overestimate the proto-MT a lot for his recensive translation, which had some effect on Latin Christianity... But I don't think it's fair to say he's tossed the LXX, for as much as I know.

Not fair at all. He was a capital philologist, quite possibly the best of all time. However, yes, he did more than consult the Masoretes; he drew from them as a source at least equal to LXX, and it's fair to say this eventually opened the door to the scholarly doctrine from the humanists till today that Masoretic text is only true text.

Fact check: the Masoreres did not exist in the fourth century.  St. Jerome consulted Hebrew texts which were centuries later evaluated and compiled by the Masoretes, about 400 years later, giving us the Masoretic text.  There are some variations between the pre-MT Hebraic used by St. Jerome and the actual MT, which is why the Vulgate doesn't always match the Masoretic text.

It's a pity the Hexapla is lost to us, by the way.

True and rather important. Most of the work of the Masoretes was done in the Middle Ages. However, the push in scholarly circles is to cloud the issue and include resension work begun in Babylonian captivity. I broke my own rule by doing the same.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: The Quicumque Vult, or Athanasium
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 01:07:39 AM »
Yeah, this is why I mentioned the "Proto-MT". Not many people would like to admit such an valued recension is so late.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 01:08:15 AM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

Check my blog "Em Espírito e em Verdade" (in Portuguese)